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Chronograph: Garmin vs LabRadar

Trying to help you. I don’t know you.
Then how the fuck do you know if be fired from anything? Even imply that shit: that’s not helpful at all. Let me help you: do t be some dick who implies that somebody is going to lose their likelihood over a handful of posts in a shooting forum. I’m helping your ass
 
What a idiotic thread this turned into.

I run a Labradar....eh, in the spring I'll give it to my younger cousin and get a Garmin.

But, I have a lot of chrono data from the LR and I download it into Excel. I keep each session in its own column but also aggregate it into a single data set. For ELD-M on one rifle, I have just a bit over 100 data points.

If I run STDEV.S and STDEV.P on this aggregate, the difference is about .15. Just did it. Who gives a fuck.

Although I read posts where STDEV.S was recommended, I use STDEV.P as this data set IS the entire population. I'm not trying to make it a sample for prediction purposes. I want to know WTF the standard deviation was on the set of cartridges I fired. The future can take care of itself.

And I have some sympathy with the view that absolute accuracy of the standard deviation calculation is not absolutely and entirely critical except for pissing up the tree highest contests with other reloaders.

To me, its sort of like case comparators...yeah, I'd like accuracy to the third decimal place but I'm not losing sleep over it. If I have been getting an SD of 14, and I introduce a new process in my reloading (or new equipment, whatever), and I see the SD go down to 8, then I think I'm on to something. If it doesn't, then I think I wasted some time and money.

Just my always uninformed and ignorant view of things.
Agree, the weird responses over a simple calculation is simply ridiculous. I stand proud in me giving the finger to all of it
 
Are you threatening my livelihood? Wow! Who the fuck are you telling me I’m going to get fired!? Unbelievable trying to steady me by threatening my livelihood. This is absolutely the lowest forum I’ve ever experienced. Once again, fuck you bullies trying to cancel my support of my children. You’re the lowest of the low without a doubt
You sound vaxxxinated.
 
Then how the fuck do you know if be fired from anything? Even imply that shit: that’s not helpful at all. Let me help you: do t be some dick who implies that somebody is going to lose their likelihood over a handful of posts in a shooting forum. I’m helping your ass
And, uh, I don’t have a dog in this fight? You work as a, well, that’s easy to find and you are literally acting unhinged.

Imagine someone you know standing on a soapbox on a street corner and the saying stuff you’re saying? What would your advice to them be?

Meanwhile Mean Mean John Doe, an ex-coworker of whom you’ve had a number of bad run-ins with in the past, is searching for dirt on a Mr. Bryan Zolnikov… (or ex-wives, garden gnomes you’ve tripped on and upset, fill in the blank)

Something tells me you might have more than your fair share of people rather displeased with you?

I don’t usually say this, and like to egg on those who exhibit, ah, odd tendencies, but you are sorta not doing something wise.
 
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Dear Christ

I’m astonished as to how thin the skin can be

Esp when one develops a following and gets a complex from it

I do wonder if substances aren’t responsible for the “substance” or lack thereof, within this thread.

Cuz it’s weird.

Really weird.
 
Are you threatening my livelihood? Wow! Who the fuck are you telling me I’m going to get fired!? Unbelievable trying to steady me by threatening my livelihood. This is absolutely the lowest forum I’ve ever experienced. Once again, fuck you bullies trying to cancel my support of my children. You’re the lowest of the low without a doubt

41806-Emma-Stone-are-you-crying-gif-71rm.gif
 
This whole thing reminds me of a thread where a Mr. Donald Russell makes his appearance.

Mr. Russell, a coal miner’s daughter who also used his real name, told everyone on the planet (effectively, via the internet, duh) where he lived, that he was pursuing an online Ph.D. in, ahem, Bible Exposition at (Jerry Falwell Sr.‘s) Liberty University, and…ah shit here is a summation:


My favorite parts of his extensive diatribe were:
  • May have sexual fantasies around a mysterious person named “chachi”, a male perhaps adorned with copious amounts of what he calls “Ethnic Hair”
  • Quote: “If you said that to me in person I would hurt you man.”
  • Quote: “You would not want to go that road with me son. I would put a knot on your head big enough for a calf to suck on.”
I don’t think any of his threats were aimed at me. Can’t remember. But funny stuff.

He deleted himself after people tracked him down, but his memory, encased in amber in the form of quotable quotes, lives on in all our Sniper’s Hide hearts.
 
Dude, you ou found me out with my 2500 subscribers. Way more than the 2.5 million subs on pages where they post videos of the decibels of farts. 😂 who the fuck are you idiots? Fuckin whack. Make like silent bob and just shut the fuck up with your bullshit.

Stop being shitty at YouTube? Stop being shitty at forums while you're at it.
 
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And, uh, I don’t have a dog in this fight? You work as a, well, that’s easy to find and you are literally acting unhinged.

Imagine someone you know standing on a soapbox on a street corner and the saying stuff you’re saying? What would your advice to them be?

Meanwhile Mean Mean John Doe, an ex-coworker of whom you’ve had a number of bad run-ins with in the past, is searching for dirt on a Mr. Bryan Zolnikov… (or ex-wives, garden gnomes you’ve tripped on and upset, fill in the blank)

Something tells me you might have more than your fair share of people rather displeased with you?

I don’t usually say this, and like to egg on those who exhibit, ah, odd tendencies, but you are sorta not doing something wise.
“Unhinged”? 😂 Yeah, no. This is far from “unhinged”. Telling a bunch of bullies to eat shit is far from “unhinged” but thanks for trying to frame this into some threatening response to me that serves to make me somehow subservient to your bullying threats. FUCK YOU! And all you bullies in Snipers Hide. Also, welcome all that rebuke the assholes in Snipers Hide to my Patreon. Glad to have you in a safe space that is free from what you’ve experienced on this abusive dump of a platform
 
Dear Christ

I’m astonished as to how thin the skin can be

Esp when one develops a following and gets a complex from it

I do wonder if substances aren’t responsible for the “substance” or lack thereof, within this thread.

Cuz it’s weird.

Really weird.
Yes, your bias is weird but great that you make it obvious. 🙏🏽
 
Better than a mutant 🤷🏼‍♂️😎
I think there is some serious substance abuse and domestic violence going on with you all. 😂 good god, I honestly can’t even figure out why you would assert any of that other than experiencing your obvious invalidation. Seems like y’all are projecting your substance abuse and DV into me now
 
What the fuck is going on in here
It appears we have an incredibly thin-skinned smart statistician (or someone who plays one on TV) and BR-type shooter who has either gone off his meds, is having a peyote-inspired vision-quest, is three sheets to the wind, has had a very, very, very bad day, is semi-suicidal and is tethering on the Golden Gate Bridge’s handrail, whose powder scale malfunctioned, or quite possibly all of these things combined.

Here’s the key to his padded cell.

Good luck on the night watch!
 
It appears we have an incredibly thin-skinned smart statistician (or someone who plays one on TV) and BR-type shooter who has either gone off his meds, is having a peyote-inspired vision-quest, is three sheets to the wind, has had a very, very, very bad day, is semi-suicidal and is tethering on the Golden Gate Bridge’s handrail, whose powder scale malfunctioned, or quite possibly all of these things combined.

Here’s the key to his padded cell.

Good luck on the night watch!
Nice bizarre stuff. Shows where your (lack of sound) mind is at. Telling 😂 Thanks again for being completely invalidating like many of you on the hide. Great learning environment 😂
 
Yes, keep your ignorance up! Best most comical thing I find about your posts 😂😂 However, I do take seriously the clear and evident substance use and lack of empathy of most of you who have posted here. I do recommend that you seek help for these issues. No shame in seeking treatment for substance abuse and/or other mental health issues. Seriously
 
It appears we have an incredibly thin-skinned smart statistician (or someone who plays one on TV) and BR-type shooter who has either gone off his meds, is having a peyote-inspired vision-quest, is three sheets to the wind, has had a very, very, very bad day, is semi-suicidal and is tethering on the Golden Gate Bridge’s handrail, whose powder scale malfunctioned, or quite possibly all of these things combined.

Here’s the key to his padded cell.

Good luck on the night watch!
Well, he’s not a statistician. But a real one did tell him he’s wrong. He left for a couple days to lick his wounds and returned in a drunken stupor. Hilarity ensued.
 
1/10, didn't even cover which chrono gives a shooter an extra 20 points PRS/NRL.
A shooter gots to know how to spend that coin...

R
 
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"As I was shooting this I was sitting with A FELLOW BENCH REST SHOOTER."

For fucks sake, I didn't see these initial threads! It all makes sense now.

And there's another thread I think that's still deleted for the moment.
 
Doing good so far “Hide” 😂😂

Look, the neutral country comes in to assert something neutral 😂

I’m not looking to convince anybody. I’m waiting for you all to convince yourselves but I can see that you are very much locked in your perspective. Let me know if you ever even want to try to figure it out. Let’s see if you do. Won’t hold my breath.

Look! Silent Bob is asserting herself by posting a meme of her open mouth waiting for an insert 😂You don’t know anything about advancing precision which is why it’s best you make like Silent Bob and STFU…do us all that favor lil trick
1705601890542.gif



Ooh, yikes. Looks like this gamble wasn’t a winner
 
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Well Well Well (user has been chat banned--call of duty joke for the kids)

Looks like someone stayed at a Holiday In Express and then tried to do stats. Let's just say you would not be faring very well in my class.
For shooting purposes which "formula" you use (I'll get to the quotes shortly) is largely irrelevant unless you like Math Bitch Fights(TM)

Luckily I do.

Let's go to the tape:
0:20 or so "Comparing it to the Labradar..." (Uh oh! You used the magic words!)
0:36 "I collected more data" (aka Darth Vader: 'I have altered the deal' To do a proper statistical test the sameple sizes are fixed beforehand so you can estimate the statistical power of your test. Big Red Flag(TM) on your 'testing'
0:50 "Whether the ejector made any Difference, It Didn't" Data?
1:23 "Labradar and Garmin were similar" In statistics there is no similar, either their performance is the same or not. Its a Yes/No test. Typically we are asked to provide test statistics the standard of which are described here
1:34 "5 shot Velocity Average were about the same" Again, its a yes/no test. "About" is a weasal word in statistics and SHOULD NOT BE USED.
1:33 "It [Labradar] uses the wrong equation....Should not be using an inferential statistical equation" You were correct in that it uses a different equation. However, it is not wrong. And here starts the heart of your Hubris.

σ or Standard Deviation is an Intrinsic Property. If I take 5 shots and measure standard deviation, that is the property of that data. However, that's not what most people are trying to find. They are trying to measure the standard deviation. As a bonifide math geek I am sure you are familiar with Jensen's Inequality which states that an estimate of the value of a concave function is ALWAYS less than or equal to the actual value. In layman's terms for those playing along, this means that if you try to measure σ, that value is TOO SMALL or BIASED towards the actual measured data. Thus if you want to estimate the distrubution of you MV you should use s or "estimated σ". Of course these differ only by a factor of sqrt(N/(N-1)) but it is measurable, especially with very small sample size (like 5).

1:53 "A gross misapplication"
Actually it is the proper statistic to apply in your very stated case (see first comment) of comparing Labradar Performance to Garmin or doing a test to compare ejector effect. Both of these are comparing two processes and thus fall under 7.3.1 of the NIST standards shown above and standard in any statistics handbook or text. You statement is demonstrably FALSE

1:55 "Certain Type os Standard Deviation" There is std dev and estimated std dev. They are not types, one is the intrinsic value of a dataset (in this case all shots ever fired under specific conditions) the other is a estimate or measure (which is know is biased, so we correct for it) of that value.

2:05 "Garmin uses the correct equation" Depend on what you are doing. If you are trying to get a basedline, the Garmin is correct. If you are comparing things (as you are, or say doing a ladder test) then the LabRadar method is the statistically correct method. As mentioned by other uses, the difference is largely negligible escially as N becomes large, but when making claims of "Gross Misapplication" I would thing details like this DO matter.

2:18 "Extreme Spreads were a little bit different" As a statistician, the min max values have no statistical bearing on the distribution. While they contribute to the distribution, as a reminder the Guamanian or normal distribution has 2 independent parameters σ and μ, which are the only two which characterize the distribution. In essence you are saying "the std dev is different" as those values contribute to both the mean (or estimated mean) and std.dev (or estimated std.dev). You also fail to quantify "little" Statistics is math. Amounts should be quantified. To compare the ES a 1-sided t-test would be appropriate

2:37 "Little bit of Variability" No. It is a machine to machine difference that can be measured and quantified.

2:45 I just realized that your 22 shots are in fact 14 and 8 shots The last 8 shots are clearly 200FPS less (and you stated that you changed the process) so your SD is in fact over 2 separate processes. This is a huge no-no--you kniwing changed processes and include your n=22 and talk about the "process" when in fact you cannot do a head to head comparison but must do an ANOVA test to account for the multiple variables (Ejector condition, Equipment Condition, Cartridge Condition). This is a gross misapplication of statistics. It demonstrates that you have 0 knowledge or understanding of home to properly apply statistics. It negates your ES test 100% as you failed to account for the process change at shot 15 and violates a basic rule of analysis. Especially as that change in MV inflates your SD (pick a method) and allows to to claim they are the same (This is a Lies, Damn Lies, Statistics type failure)

3:11 "All those [6PPC 30BR] combined" STATISTICS FAIL!! You cannot combine those to produce a means. Nope. Nada. Fail


3:20 "The Labradar has an inflated standard deviation..not apporpriate" Indeed that is the point. Pull a total Obi-Wan, from a certain point of view, you are correct: The Labradar Std.Dev is inflated. The reason of course is because the Std.Dev produced by the Garmin is BIASED or too low for this type of process comparison. The correct method to estimate the std.dev or s is being used by Lab Radar strictly speaking. It is "inflated" because a measurement useing the "true" formula is TOO LOW and has been mathematical PROVED (Jensen's Inequality). So it is in actuallity MORE appropriate. Ooooo so close.

3:42 "Not significantly differnt" Well yeah because you FUBAR'd the data collection beyond recognition and introduced unaccounted for factors like switching rounds in the middle of the test.

3:50 "If you shot in 10 to 20 more times i t would become statistically significant" CHALLENGE ISSUED. I bet a new AXSR that if this test is repeated 10 times there would be NO STATISTICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE LABRADAR AND GARMIN. That's how full of BS your case is. Repeat this same test. 10 times. (14 shots , 8 shots x10 labradar vs garmin in for ES--even as a bullshit metric I can tell you the result right now) It will not be different. I 100% guarantee it and am willing to place a bet worth 1 AXSR in 338 Lapua New from Mile High. I'll send you my FFL info. (and i even swore off AI)

4:25 "I am getting the same" No I accept the null hypothesis that the distributions are the same (even though you totally fucked up(tm) the analysis)


NOW GET THIS WEAK SHIT OUTTA HERE BEFORE I BUST OUT MY RED PEN.

Sorry my spelling is shit. That's why I went into math and science.

TLDR for the short attention span:
Brian doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to stats. He uses a lot of weasal words and statistical terms out of context to sound smart, but is acutally just full of it.
While it really doesn't matter, strictly speaking the Labradar (estimated std dev of STDEV.S) is the correct metric.
Brian failed to account for the change in cartridge, which inflated his Std Dev allowing him to make unsubstatiated claims about process similarities. AKA he fucked up the test. Badly. He also made an outrageous claim about statistical significance so I called BS
 
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