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Night Vision Clip-on Thermal Question

eozdemir87

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Minuteman
Apr 9, 2014
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Hi Guys, I am newbie at this thermal devices and would like a help about choosing a product. I need a clip-on thermal device for my 3-12 Schmitd&Bender rifle scope. What do you recommend?

P.S. Am I able to see all screen/OLED in lowest magnification 3X? or some part of the OLED will not be seen.

Thanks!
 
L3 LWTS. Best thermal I have ever looked through. At 3x you will not see the whole screen, but what you see will blow you away. I run my L3 in front of a Kahles Ki 1-6 often. 2 to 3x is perfect. Also the L3 can be used as a stand alone unit.
B003CF47-FD8B-4865-A65F-556744FB137E.jpg
 
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L3 LWTS. Best thermal I have ever looked through. At 3x you will not see the whole screen, but what you see will blow you away. I run my L3 in front of a Kahles Ki 1-6 often. 2 to 3x is perfect. Also the L3 can be used as a stand alone unit.

thank you very much for the answer! I agree that L3 LWTS is good, is it possible to take picture behind kahles? I highly appreciate it, I wonder how it looks like when you look through from a scope.
 
Thank you for the pics! One question: there are no parallax while using with clip-on right?

That is actually a very good question, and someone should answer it. So, I will.

If you use the electronic reticle (on the LWTS), which is put right into the pixel matrix of the display, there will be no parallax. This is because the focal plane of the display and the focal plane of the reticle will be identical.

However, if you use the LWTS as a clip-on, any parallax would have to be addressed in the day scope, not the LWTS. This is because the parallax would be introduced by the day scope, whose aiming reticle is not in the same focal plane as the LWTS display. You would adjust for parallax, on your day scope with LWTS the same as you would without the LWTS.

Activating the electronic reticle on the LWTS and comparing it to the reticle position on an attached day scope, as you cycle through different levels of magnification on your day scope and shift your eye position, is actually a great way to learn about the parallax characteristics of your day scope.

Whether the image displayed on the LWTS is misaligned with or distorts the actual image field (forward of the scope) is another matter. However, rest assured the LWTS is a quality optic that does not have these problems / faults of optical accuracy.

Hope this helps.

IR-V
 
That is actually a very good question, and someone should answer it. So, I will.

If you use the electronic reticle (on the LWTS), which is put right into the pixel matrix of the display, there will be no parallax. This is because the focal plane of the display and the focal plane of the reticle will be identical.

However, if you use the LWTS as a clip-on, any parallax would have to be addressed in the day scope, not the LWTS. This is because the parallax would be introduced by the day scope, whose aiming reticle is not in the same focal plane as the LWTS display. You would adjust for parallax, on your day scope with LWTS the same as you would without the LWTS.

Activating the electronic reticle on the LWTS and comparing it to the reticle position on an attached day scope, as you cycle through different levels of magnification on your day scope and shift your eye position, is actually a great way to learn about the parallax characteristics of your day scope.

Whether the image displayed on the LWTS is misaligned with or distorts the actual image field (forward of the scope) is another matter. However, rest assured the LWTS is a quality optic that does not have these problems / faults of optical accuracy.

Hope this helps.

IR-V

IR-V, you seem to be a bit of an expert on this type of stuff so I've got a couple questions if you happen to have a moment. My LWTS should hopefully be coming this week or next. One of my favorite guns to shoot is a 22 LR dedicated upper that I have a 20 MOA LaRue mount on w/ cheap 2.5-10x scope.

Question 1. You mentioned having the LWTS misaligned, would having the day scope in a 20 MOA mount and the LWTS on a non-sloped (zero MOA) mount in front cause alignment issues and/or make the image look bad?

Question 2. I've read that cheap optics will yield cheap results in clip-ons period. Most of my weapons have fairly nice optics but my rimfire stuff has $100-$200 scopes on them. They do, however, have adjustable parallax. Will being able to focus the day scope help yield decent results even with cheap optics? I realize that's a tough question given each scope may be a little different, I'm just asking in general.

Question 3. Unfortunately these only have a one year warranty, if this thing loses its "less than 2 MOA" POI shift down the road, is there any way to adjust it short of sending it back to L3?
 
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IR-V, you seem to be a bit of an expert on this type of stuff so I've got a couple questions if you happen to have a moment. My LWTS should hopefully be coming this week or next. One of my favorite guns to shoot is a 22 LR dedicated upper that I have a 20 MOA LaRue mount on w/ cheap 2.5-10x scope.

My pleasure to help, cake5150.

Question 1. You mentioned having the LWTS misaligned, would having the day scope in a 20 MOA mount and the LWTS on a non-sloped (zero MOA) mount in front cause alignment issues and/or make the image look bad?

I was trying to point out that the L3 LWTS is a quality optic that does NOT have optical alignment problems. Though the ideal arrangement is to have the optical axis (center line-of-sight) on your day scope aligned with the optical axis (center line-of-sight) of the LWTS clip-on, this alignment does not have to be exact.

Take the diameter of your day scope objective. Form an imaginary circle 1/2 that diameter, and align its center with the center of your day scope's objective lens. As long as the optical axis of the LWTS at its ocular lens is aligned within or touching the outer perimeter of that second, imaginary circle, you will have a perfectly useable and accurate image - even though the LWTS display may appear offset within your dayscope's field of view.

Question 2. I've read that cheap optics will yield cheap results in clip-ons period. Most of my weapons have fairly nice optics but my rimfire stuff has $100-$200 scopes on them. They do, however, have adjustable parallax. Will being able to focus the day scope help yield decent results even with cheap optics? I realize that's a tough question given each scope may be a little different, I'm just asking in general.

In general, using a day scope with a thermal clip-on does allow one to get away with less image quality on the day scope optics. Here's why. Resolution, color fidelity, and the amount of light transmission (more is better) are key attributes in measuring the image quality produced by a day scope's lenses or lens system. 1 -- the 640x480 pixel density of the LWTS - though considered "high res" for a digital, thermal image display, is actually quite low compared to the resolution potential of analog optics. 2-- the digital, grayscale display palette of the LWTS (and even the digital, color palettes of the FLIR T70 for example) are very limited in "range" compared to the color fidelity potential of analog optics. 3 -- the light emitting display of the LWTS presents a daylight bright image all the time, makes moot / unimportant the "twilight" (light transmission) factor that is normally important for "low light" viewing in just the day scope.

Thus, if a day scope were to be primarily used with a clip-on thermal imager and rarely used independent of the clip-on, I would say that the extra investment in ultra high-end, high-fidelity lenses on the day scope -- such as the exotic ones made from flourite or fluorite glass -- would be a waste of funds, and would give no noticeable advantage in optical fidelity when used with the digital imaging of the thermal clip-on scope.

Other important quality of use factors, however, such as eye relief, FOV, edge-to-edge clarity (absence of optical aberrations), parallax, the granularity of the windage / elevation adjustments, focal plane placement, and the ability to hold zero under recoil are not mitigated in a day scope used with thermal clip-on optic -- and you pretty much "get what you pay for".

Question 3. Unfortunately these only have a one year warranty, if this thing loses its "less than 2 MOA" POI shift down the road, is there any way to adjust it short of sending it back to L3?

That's not going to happen. The only way POA shift is going to occur is if the LWTS is subjected to extremely forceful impact -- like a sledgehammer blow -- that breaks or displaces the lens system or display. The LWTS has excellent shock resistance and purpose-built shock mitigation.

Hope this helps.

IR-V
 
My pleasure to help, cake5150.



I was trying to point out that the L3 LWTS is a quality optic that does NOT have optical alignment problems. Though the ideal arrangement is to have the optical axis (center line-of-sight) on your day scope aligned with the optical axis (center line-of-sight) of the LWTS clip-on, this alignment does not have to be exact.

Take the diameter of your day scope objective. Form an imaginary circle 1/2 that diameter, and align its center with the center of your day scope's objective lens. As long as the optical axis of the LWTS at its ocular lens is aligned within or touching the outer perimeter of that second, imaginary circle, you will have a perfectly useable and accurate image - even though the LWTS display may appear offset within your dayscope's field of view.



In general, using a day scope with a thermal clip-on does allow one to get away with less image quality on the day scope optics. Here's why. Resolution, color fidelity, and the amount of light transmission (more is better) are key attributes in measuring the image quality produced by a day scope's lenses or lens system. 1 -- the 640x480 pixel density of the LWTS - though considered "high res" for a digital, thermal image display, is actually quite low compared to the resolution potential of analog optics. 2-- the digital, grayscale display palette of the LWTS (and even the digital, color palettes of the FLIR T70 for example) are very limited in "range" compared to the color fidelity potential of analog optics. 3 -- the light emitting display of the LWTS presents a daylight bright image all the time, makes moot / unimportant the "twilight" (light transmission) factor that is normally important for "low light" viewing in just the day scope.

Thus, if a day scope were to be primarily used with a clip-on thermal imager and rarely used independent of the clip-on, I would say that the extra investment in ultra high-end, high-fidelity lenses on the day scope -- such as the exotic ones made from flourite or fluorite glass -- would be a waste of funds, and would give no noticeable advantage in optical fidelity when used with the digital imaging of the thermal clip-on scope.

Other important quality of use factors, however, such as eye relief, FOV, edge-to-edge clarity (absence of optical aberrations), parallax, the granularity of the windage / elevation adjustments, focal plane placement, and the ability to hold zero under recoil are not mitigated in a day scope used with thermal clip-on optic -- and you pretty much "get what you pay for".



That's not going to happen. The only way POA shift is going to occur is if the LWTS is subjected to extremely forceful impact -- like a sledgehammer blow -- that breaks or displaces the lens system or display. The LWTS has excellent shock resistance and purpose-built shock mitigation.

Hope this helps.

IR-V

Wow, thanks for taking the time to type all of that... much appreciated! That is unbelievably helpful information. I don't think I've ever been this excited about a purchase!
 
Wow, thanks for taking the time to type all of that... much appreciated! That is unbelievably helpful information. I don't think I've ever been this excited about a purchase!

My pleasure to help! Congratulations on your LWTS purchase - it will serve you well, and will provide to you great pride in ownership.

IR-V
 
IR-V,

You mentioned that it would take a very forceful impact. Does anyone know the recoil rating for the lwts? I have looked briefly and haven't seen it in the brochure or on sellers websites.

golden_311,

It is designed and built to sustain recoil forces up to those generated, on average, by the .50 BMG cartridge. The reason why these "limits" or "ratings" are not published is because there are actually many more factors than just the general size / energy of the cartridge that shape the forces on the scope.

Nonetheless, in our testing, the LWTS sustains the abrupt impulse from .338 LM in a bolt action rifle and the hammering from an M60-E4 running long belts equally well.

IR-V
 
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golden_311,

It is designed and built to sustain recoil forces up to those generated, on average, by the .50 BMG cartridge. The reason why these "limits" or "ratings" are not published is because there are actually many more factors than just the general size / energy of the cartridge that shape the forces on the scope.

Nonetheless, in our testing, the LWTS sustains the abrupt impulse from .338 LM in a bolt action rifle and the hammering from an M60-E4 running long belts equally well.

IR-V

Good info, thanks. In your experience w/ this optic, how far could you push magnification w/o the image becoming too pixelated. From what I've read and been told, this optic is mainly for use at or under 4x but I'd love to get to 6-8x if it doesn't distort the image excessively. I've read comments from others that have done it but would like to hear what you have to say. Also, does increasing the display brightness actually help with being able to increase the magnification of the day optic w/o losing image quality. From your experience was the boresight on these units w/in 2 MOA or better/worse? I'd love to hear anything you have to say regarding this optic since there really isn't a great deal of info out there aside from past threads on this site and other bits and pieces here and there. I asked the company I purchased from for a PDF of the manual but unfortunately they didn't have one available. I'm getting a bit stir-crazy waiting for this thing to arrive.
 
Good info, thanks. In your experience w/ this optic, how far could you push magnification w/o the image becoming too pixelated. From what I've read and been told, this optic is mainly for use at or under 4x but I'd love to get to 6-8x if it doesn't distort the image excessively. I've read comments from others that have done it but would like to hear what you have to say. Also, does increasing the display brightness actually help with being able to increase the magnification of the day optic w/o losing image quality. From your experience was the boresight on these units w/in 2 MOA or better/worse? I'd love to hear anything you have to say regarding this optic since there really isn't a great deal of info out there aside from past threads on this site and other bits and pieces here and there. I asked the company I purchased from for a PDF of the manual but unfortunately they didn't have one available. I'm getting a bit stir-crazy waiting for this thing to arrive.

When an image appears "pixelated" depends on a lot of factors: the size of the pixels, the acuity of your vision, the amount of contrast on the edge of objects being viewed, and the size of the objects being viewed in relation to pixel size. Generally, pixelation where a straight, diagonal line or edge might appear "stepped" occurs when the eye can easily discern the individual pixels making up the display. For most eyes, viewing a 640x480 digital display (on clip-on scope) with pixels sized .25 - .33 milliradian, this occurs at around 7x - 8x magnification (on the day scope).

Unless there are optical aberrations in the lens system of your day scope or clip-on, magnifying an image does not distort it. As magnification increases, the amount of fine, image detail visible on a digital display is merely reduced.

Turning up the brightness does not improve the "sharpness" (resolution) of a digital screen viewed under high magnification.

2 MOA offset on boresight is the maximum deviation allowed for the product. The L3 LWTS on average holds to 1/4 to 1/2 the maximum allowable offset.

IR-V
 
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When an image appears "pixelated" depends on a lot of factors: the size of the pixels, the acuity of your vision, the amount of contrast on the edge of objects being viewed, and the size of the objects being viewed in relation to pixel size. Generally, pixelation where a straight, diagonal line or edge might appear "stepped" occurs when the eye can easily discern the individual pixels making up the display. For most eyes, viewing a 640x480 digital display (on clip-on scope) with pixels sized .25 - .33 milliradian, this occurs at around 7x - 8x magnification (on the day scope).

Unless there are optical aberrations in the lens system of your day scope or clip-on, magnifying an image does not distort it. As magnification increases, the amount of fine, image detail visible on a digital display is merely reduced.

Turning up the brightness does not improve the "sharpness" (resolution) of a digital screen viewed under high magnification.

2 MOA offset on boresight is the maximum deviation allowed for the product. The L3 LWTS on average holds to 1/4 to 1/2 the maximum allowable offset.

IR-V

That is spectacular, I was hoping to be able to get to at least 6x out of it. I'm really looking forward to experimenting w/ different magnifications w/ mine but it STILL hasn't come in yet. I've watched I think every video out there of footage through the CNVD-T and of course the LWTS, the wait is KILLING me. Some of the CNVD-T videos are astonishingly clear, really impressive for a system that is a number of years old. The LWTS is a further improvement upon this, correct?
 
That is spectacular, I was hoping to be able to get to at least 6x out of it. I'm really looking forward to experimenting w/ different magnifications w/ mine but it STILL hasn't come in yet. I've watched I think every video out there of footage through the CNVD-T and of course the LWTS, the wait is KILLING me. Some of the CNVD-T videos are astonishingly clear, really impressive for a system that is a number of years old. The LWTS is a further improvement upon this, correct?

You'll get your best results keeping the digital presentation on the LWTS at 1x and using your dayscope as the exclusive source of magnification. Digital zoom gives more "degradation" on the image quality, when used alone or with magnification from a day scope.

In regard to thermal sensitivity, there's really no difference between the LWTS and the CNVD-T. The resolution of the sensors are essentially the same, and the "size" differences such as the 17 micron versus 25 micron parameters on the cores have no impact on key, sensor performance attributes such as thermal sensitivity -- instead what they offer is the ability to gain the same thermal detection performance in a more compact and more energy efficient package.

In addition to the more compact and energy efficient packaging, where the LWTS excels is in the on-board image / signal processing for contrast management and contour detection and management. It is all about helping the viewer better see and discriminate between all the discrete, thermal image data that the core / microbolometer is (and which prior generations of VOx microbolometer have been) capable of collecting.

All the makers of thermal imaging scopes, including L3 and FLIR, will continue to progressively make significant improvements in thermal imaging capability, for portable scopes, without necessarily improving the performance of the core technology, which quite frankly, is already providing considerably more thermal image data than is being used. In the upcoming year or so, you'll see the interpolation of thermal image data onto display resolutions twice as great as the resolution of the microbolometer -- this will dramatically improve the maximum levels of magnification that can be achieved (with outboard, analog magnification) and yet still provide the user with crisp, well-defined imaging. Then, you'll see array management via multiple thermal cores and displays unified into a common chassis; which will be driven by smaller and lower cost sensor and display modules -- this will dramatically improve the field of view available to thermal imagers. Then, you'll see advanced, lens systems, using germanium and carbon compounds, that will capture LWIR radiation at many multiples of what the current lens systems can collect -- this will dramatically increase the thermal resolution achievable at greater distances.

The amazing thing is that the technologies to implement these enhancements are already "here", they are just not in broad scale production that the manufacturers feel is at a cost that would allow for significant profits -- yet. However, the modularity of the electro-optics associated with thermal imaging is evolving to where a creative and skilled, individual maker, can build portable, thermal imaging technology for personal use that performs "many generations" ahead of the best commercial, off the shelf (COTS) solutions.

Personally, for me, the situation has already reached the stage where I'm building all my own scopes (which far exceed COTS performance) for my own use, and am personally using the COTS scopes only if I'm getting one for free for testing or evaluation outside my work -- and just using the COTS scopes for ideas and insights on things like chassis design, software layouts, user ergonomics, and physical hardening.

IR-V
 
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You'll get your best results keeping the digital presentation on the LWTS at 1x and using your dayscope as the exclusive source of magnification. Digital zoom gives more "degradation" on the image quality, when used alone or with magnification from a day scope.

In regard to thermal sensitivity, there's really no difference between the LWTS and the CNVD-T. The resolution of the sensors are essentially the same, and the "size" differences such as the 17 micron versus 25 micron parameters on the cores have no impact on key, sensor performance attributes such as thermal sensitivity -- instead what they offer is the ability to gain the same thermal detection performance in a more compact and more energy efficient package.

In addition to the more compact and energy efficient packaging, where the LWTS excels is in the on-board image / signal processing for contrast management and contour detection and management. It is all about helping the viewer better see and discriminate between all the discrete, thermal image data that the core / microbolometer is (and which prior generations of VOx microbolometer have been) capable of collecting.

All the makers of thermal imaging scopes, including L3 and FLIR, will continue to progressively make significant improvements in thermal imaging capability, for portable scopes, without necessarily improving the performance of the core technology, which quite frankly, is already providing considerably more thermal image data than is being used. In the upcoming year or so, you'll see the interpolation of thermal image data onto display resolutions twice as great as the resolution of the microbolometer -- this will dramatically improve the maximum levels of magnification that can be achieved (with outboard, analog magnification) and yet still provide the user with crisp, well-defined imaging. Then, you'll see array management via multiple thermal cores and displays unified into a common chassis; which will be driven by smaller and lower cost sensor and display modules -- this will dramatically improve the field of view available to thermal imagers. Then, you'll see advanced, lens systems, using germanium and carbon compounds, that will capture LWIR radiation at many multiples of what the current lens systems can collect -- this will dramatically increase the thermal resolution achievable at greater distances.

The amazing thing is that the technologies to implement these enhancements are already "here", they are just not in broad scale production that the manufacturers feel is at a cost that would allow for significant profits -- yet. However, the modularity of the electro-optics associated with thermal imaging is evolving to where a creative and skilled, individual maker, can build portable, thermal imaging technology for personal use that performs "many generations" ahead of the best commercial, off the shelf (COTS) solutions.

Personally, for me, the situation has already reached the stage where I'm building all my own scopes (which far exceed COTS performance) for my own use, and am personally using the COTS scopes only if I'm getting one for free for testing or evaluation outside my work -- and just using the COTS scopes for ideas and insights on things like chassis design, software layouts, user ergonomics, and physical hardening.

IR-V

That's incredible that you roll your own, so to speak, and that they have BETTER performance than COTS stuff. Very cool. If you ever decide to write a book, I'll buy a copy for myself and my other night vision-addicted friends! The different thermals I was looking at for potential purchase were the L3 LWTS, FLIR RS 640x480 w/ 35mm lens, FLIR T50, FLIR T70, and N-vision TC50. In case you have gotten to use all of these different optics, which is the best of the bunch performance/feature wise in your opinion? There is a fairly wide price range between the low and high end on my list but those were the ones that I was seriously considering. There was a LWTS vs. T70 thread a couple months ago but it got trashed due to the bickering/jabbing content I believe. Given the price tag on these things, it would be really nice to have an objective comparison from a non-biased third party for others looking to take the plunge. I wanted to fly to Las Vegas to check out the stuff in person at SPI but my work schedule is nuts and time did not allow. I wound up ordering an LWTS based on the imagery available on youtube which is SPARSE to say the very least. I ask your opinion on the matter because I'm not opposed to buying another thermal later this year or next. Thank you again for all the info you've provided. Hopefully my LWTS arrives sometime soon :cool:
 
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You can set it up to NUC manually or automatically. Default is auto NUC. You chose well, going with the LWTS!

Thanks for posting, I'm glad it has a manual NUC option. The only other DRS cored thermal I have used had manual NUC and I really liked it. I REALLY wish there was more info available on this thing that I could read. I've scoured google for a PDF manual and can't find anything whatsoever. Question about the reticles, are they each adjustable independently of one another or will all the reticles be saved to the same coordinate? I ask because I'd really like to have one reticle zeroed to each of my night guns so I can just select the relevant reticle and go. W/ the X/Y coordinate one could obviously just move it to the predetermined zero point when moving between guns, but having the reticles zeroed to each gun would be even quicker. Is the POI shift fairly negligible on your unit, TestnDoc?
 
Thanks for posting, I'm glad it has a manual NUC option. The only other DRS cored thermal I have used had manual NUC and I really liked it. I REALLY wish there was more info available on this thing that I could read. I've scoured google for a PDF manual and can't find anything whatsoever. Question about the reticles, are they each adjustable independently of one another or will all the reticles be saved to the same coordinate? I ask because I'd really like to have one reticle zeroed to each of my night guns so I can just select the relevant reticle and go. W/ the X/Y coordinate one could obviously just move it to the predetermined zero point when moving between guns, but having the reticles zeroed to each gun would be even quicker. Is the POI shift fairly negligible on your unit, TestnDoc?
Good question on the reticles, I'm not sure, but I think they stay at whatever position the previous reticle was on. Will have to check when I get back in town. Let me clarify on the NUC, every time you turn the unit on, it defaults to auto NUC, then, if it is desired, you switch to manual NUC. I leave it on auto. POI shift is negligible.
 
That's incredible that you roll your own, so to speak, and that they have BETTER performance than COTS stuff. Very cool. If you ever decide to write a book, I'll buy a copy for myself and my other night vision-addicted friends! The different thermals I was looking at for potential purchase were the L3 LWTS, FLIR RS 640x480 w/ 35mm lens, FLIR T50, FLIR T70, and N-vision TC50. In case you have gotten to use all of these different optics, which is the best of the bunch performance/feature wise in your opinion? There is a fairly wide price range between the low and high end on my list but those were the ones that I was seriously considering. There was a LWTS vs. T70 thread a couple months ago but it got trashed due to the bickering/jabbing content I believe. Given the price tag on these things, it would be really nice to have an objective comparison from a non-biased third party for others looking to take the plunge. I wanted to fly to Las Vegas to check out the stuff in person at SPI but my work schedule is nuts and time did not allow. I wound up ordering an LWTS based on the imagery available on youtube which is SPARSE to say the very least. I ask your opinion on the matter because I'm not opposed to buying another thermal later this year or next. Thank you again for all the info you've provided. Hopefully my LWTS arrives sometime soon :cool:

We work with many makers, and I'd rather not get into the politics of product comparisons. There's a lot of personalities on these boards, with different / contrasting / competing product allegiances in addition to personal alliances, business agendas, and even long-standing animosities and vendettas which I find to be excess drama, and would rather stay out of.

The LWTS vs. T70 thread is still around, and actually drills deep on the technical comparisons. There's a lot of valuable information to be gained in that thread if you're willing to take the time to filter out the clashes and debris from the "schools of Kung-fu duking it out". There is one matter of comparison between the two products that has a technical component, but which is also a matter of personal preference - and that pertains to the "native" resolution at unity (1x). It has been hashed out to the nth degree there, and I've even commented on it there.

That said, with either the LWTS or T70, you're going to be at the pinnacle of what is commercially available for a middle-range (and I'm talking distance for thermal sensing, not category of quality) clip-on, thermal imager for small arms with ballistic "sweet spot" in the 200 - 300 meter range. With an LWTS incoming (for you), I recommend that you strike off your list any thermal imager that:

-- isn't a clip-on
-- has resolution on the thermal core less than 640x480
-- has objective lens less than 60 mm diameter.

Then, focus on using and thoroughly testing your LWTS when it comes in, to learn the fullest extent of what it can and cannot do. You'll soon arrive at the decision to keep your money in your pocket and wait for the thermal scopes with higher resolution displays combined with longer range, variable-magnification (analog adjustable not digital adjusted) lens systems to come on to the market, for your next purchase.

If you have mad money burning a hole in your pocket, and an insatiable desire to expand your night imaging horizons, then the dual-band aka "fusion" technologies that combine thermal (LWIR) and i^2 light intensification imaging technologies are where you want to go. There are conditions where thermal imaging alone isn't the best for seeing clearly enough to get the job done. What conditions those are can be best and most memorably learned by using your thermal scope.

IR-V
 
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We work with many makers, and I'd rather not get into the politics of product comparisons. There's a lot of personalities on these boards, with different / contrasting / competing product allegiances in addition to personal alliances, business agendas, and even long-standing animosities and vendettas which I find to be excess drama, and would rather stay out of.

The LWTS vs. T70 thread is still around, and actually drills deep on the technical comparisons. There's a lot of valuable information to be gained in that thread if you're willing to take the time to filter out the clashes and debris from the "schools of Kung-fu duking it out". There is one matter of comparison between the two products that has a technical component, but which is also a matter of personal preference - and that pertains to the "native" resolution at unity (1x). It has been hashed out to the nth degree there, and I've even commented on it there.

That said, with either the LWTS or T70, you're going to be at the pinnacle of what is commercially available for a middle-range (and I'm talking distance for thermal sensing, not category of quality) clip-on, thermal imager for small arms with ballistic "sweet spot" in the 200 - 300 meter range. With an LWTS incoming (for you), I recommend that you strike off your list any thermal imager that:

-- isn't a clip-on
-- has resolution on the thermal core less than 640x480
-- has objective lens less than 60 mm diameter.

Then, focus on using and thoroughly testing your LWTS when it comes in, to learn the fullest extent of what it can and cannot do. You'll soon arrive at the decision to keep your money in your pocket and wait for the thermal scopes with higher resolution displays combined with longer range, variable-magnification (analog adjustable not digital adjusted) lens systems to come on to the market, for your next purchase.

If you have mad money burning a hole in your pocket, and an insatiable desire to expand your night imaging horizons, then the dual-band aka "fusion" technologies that combine thermal (LWIR) and i^2 light intensification imaging technologies are where you want to go. There are conditions where thermal imaging alone isn't the best for seeing clearly enough to get the job done. What conditions those are can be best and most memorably learned by using your thermal scope.

IR-V

I've tried doing the search to find that T70 vs. LWTS thread w/ no luck. All I can find is the T70 vs. T75 comparison. Can someone send me a link or maybe someone has the thread pages saved somehow. I read it back in January but that's been a while I'd like to read through it again.

Also, does anyone know anything about the LWTS being recalled for updates? I ordered mine on April 9th and was told it was in stock at the time. A couple weeks later I was told the in stock units had to be sent back to L3 for software updates, and I STILL don't have it. I'm sure it's out of the dealer's hands since they can't make L3 send them out any faster. I'd still like to have a little more information on what the problem or potential problem was considering the large $$ amount and the fact that the factory warranty is only one year. I know there are some LWTS owners on this board, does anyone know anything about this?

ETA: In case anyone has info that they can't or won't post publicly, please add @gmail.com to my handle and shoot me an email. I'd much appreciate it!
 
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Supposedly all LWTS have to be returned to factory for firmware upgrade, including those that have been sold and those waiting to be sold.
 
Who alerted you to the firmware update? Have u talked with SPI?

I called L3 today and left a voice mail. Less than 30 minutes later I had an email response from someone in the field returns department. I probably wasn't clear in my voicemail as she included in the email an RMA to return my LWTS (I haven't received mine yet, that's what I was calling about to see what was going on w/ the recall). She referred to it as "a software update that is a very quick process." I was glad to see such a prompt response to my inquiry and I responded asking for details on the recall if possible. I will update if I get another response.

TestnDoc, I called 866-509-2040 and left a voicemail in case you want to do the same since you have yours already.
 
I called L3 today and left a voice mail. Less than 30 minutes later I had an email response from someone in the field returns department. I probably wasn't clear in my voicemail as she included in the email an RMA to return my LWTS (I haven't received mine yet, that's what I was calling about to see what was going on w/ the recall). She referred to it as "a software update that is a very quick process." I was glad to see such a prompt response to my inquiry and I responded asking for details on the recall if possible. I will update if I get another response.

TestnDoc, I called 866-509-2040 and left a voicemail in case you want to do the same since you have yours already.

Still no reason as to why the firmware upgrade? SPI supposedly has some DVR cables, been trying to reach them. Pricey.
 
Still no reason as to why the firmware upgrade? SPI supposedly has some DVR cables, been trying to reach them. Pricey.

I got another email today. I asked if there were any serious problems with the unit, looking for specifics. I was told it was just a quick software update, no problems. She also mentioned that if I ever had any problems w/ my LWTS, even years down the road, to contact them and they will help with it. It was nice to hear that last part, hopefully they will follow through on support should the need arrive. Still trying to get a firm ETA from SPI on the unit I paid for in April, no luck there whatsoever unfortunately.

TestnDoc, I thought the video cable was free from SPI for those who purchased the LWTS from them. They posted something to that effect in the linked thread below third post from the bottom.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-night-vision-devices/242317-l3-lwts-my-kac-sbr.html
 
So would a outboard scope mount with an MOA cant effect the POA/POI given that it would put the focal planes out of alignment?

More of a curiosity than anything as I wouldn't take a shot at an animal over 300 so I would be well within my elevation travel but I am building something new where a 20MOA cant would extend my range within the capabilities of the cartridge for daytime use. If there is an issue I would like to know so I can make an informed decision about the potential to use with the clip on.

Thanks,
 
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So would a outboard scope mount with an MOA cant effect the POA/POI given that it would put the focal planes out of alignment?

More of a curiosity than anything as I wouldn't take a shot at an animal over 300 so I would be well within my elevation travel but I am building something new where a 20MOA cant would extend my range within the capabilities of the cartridge for daytime use. If there is an issue I would like to know so I can make an informed decision about the potential to use with the clip on.

Thanks,

That is an interesting question to be sure. On a Thermal clip on, your looking at a screen with your day optic and not through an I2 tube with a Night Vision Clip on. Now some will argue your looking at the phosphor screen in the I2 device. But with the I2 set up you do look "through it" where as with thermal, your straight up looing at a display screen.

In this case the answer is... Don't know till ya try it.

With Night vision Clip ons there are two schools of thought.

1. You don't need the rails front and back on the same plane angle wise. the argument is "the technology is so advanced and amazing it corrects for all optical misalignment sins!" In my opinion this is completely idiotic. All the Risely prisms do is remove the shift of the Micro Channel plate by optical correcting the light path as straight as they can... AKA collimation. Here is where is gets sticky as HELL. Most clip ons are only rated to be within 1 MOA of POA and POI... so in reality if it (the clip on's collimation) isn't DEAD nuts 1000% accurate to ZERO shift, your going to be off (WHO KNOWS which direction and how much) and having the Clip on, off axis to the day optic is only going to magnify this. Sure there are anecdotal stories out there that it doesnt mater. Having been through the process to desgin and build a clip on now, Trust me it does matter.

2. You do need the rails to line up (angle wise) AND my little addition to this is you need your optics at the same FUCKING HEIGHT ! ! ! Its ludicrus to spend $8000 and up on a clipon and then not line everything up. Seriously its like buying a Ferrari and then running non ZR (99Y) rated tires. WTF OVER ?!?!?!?! The argument that "you don't want to change your rings" is (no pun intended) SHORT SIGHTED! The BEST resolution in an I2 tube is right through the middle. So... why look through the edge of the tube? where resolution is less and you have the added icing on the cake of optical light loss! Let me say it again, looking through the edge and not the center is shorting yourself on a critical capability. In fact THE capability most important in a clip on.

Did I mention?

RESOLUTION IS BEST RIGHT THROUGH THE MIDDLE!!!

So now we go to thermal clip-ons. The big huge flaming question here is this. How are they aligning and collimating anything? Risley prisms? or just moving the screen around? So literally this is going to be a get them and try it experience. I will shortly and report back!

Huge food for thought.
 
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I should have specified thermal clip on but didn't because of the thread subject. Either way excellent info and much appreciated.

I'm OK with buying a mount and shooting the dope for both mounts on the same day from 100-600 with all else being the same but, if someone else already did it in an emperically sound way and is willing to share then even better.

I take no chances and all my mounts for use with the clip on are 1.5" period. I would rather use a stock pack, have an elevation adjustable cheek piece or otherwise than play the slop in ring height.

Any info is greatlly appreciated!
 
I have been wondering the same thing for quite a while now. When my LWTS unit comes in, I will answer this question ASAP as one of the guns I am dying to use it on has a 2.5-10x50 in a 20 MOA LaRue mount.
 
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I should have specified thermal clip on but didn't because of the thread subject. Either way excellent info and much appreciated.

Sorry for kinda veering off topic but a brief explanation of how things are working in both platforms is relevant here. This subject is one of great interest to more than a couple folks in this game and I will be testing and "figgerin" things out on this very subject through the summer.
 
So my LWTS came in today :D :D. I've only had a minute before work to ready through some of the manual and drool over the lens. So far from what I've seen the manual only says lithium batteries, can standard batteries be used as well? I'm not trying to cheap out but I need to know whether I need to find somewhere around work today to grab some Li AAs. I'm going to take the manual w/ me to read during downtime but was hoping someone here would be able to answer the question as well in case work is nuts.
 
Yup, I think this is my single most favorite thread on the hide and glad we are back to the hide that has it. It was re-reading this thread about 14 months ago that decided me on going on the journey to find a good long distance capable thermal clipon.
 
Hi Guys, I am newbie at this thermal devices and would like a help about choosing a product. I need a clip-on thermal device for my 3-12 Schmitd&Bender rifle scope. What do you recommend?

P.S. Am I able to see all screen/OLED in lowest magnification 3X? or some part of the OLED will not be seen.

Thanks!
Do the research on Trijicon Snipe IR as they fixed the paralox issue most common wirh thermal clip ons. My buddies and I have been using all there devices since they were called IR Defense.
Personally I wouldn't clip on a thermal, I clip on NV so I can keep my daytime reticle and holdovers s
don't change but if you want to shoot thermal, do a quality quick disconnect on you Schmidt and take it off the gun for nightime.

If anyone knows of a thermal that allows you use your daytime reticle for holdover let me know, I might not know of such a device but maybe it exists
 
Do the research on Trijicon Snipe IR as they fixed the paralox issue most common wirh thermal clip ons. My buddies and I have been using all there devices since they were called IR Defense.
Personally I wouldn't clip on a thermal, I clip on NV so I can keep my daytime reticle and holdovers s
don't change but if you want to shoot thermal, do a quality quick disconnect on you Schmidt and take it off the gun for nightime.

If anyone knows of a thermal that allows you use your daytime reticle for holdover let me know, I might not know of such a device but maybe it exists

?????!! All the clip on thermals that I have used let you use your reticle???? That's one of the main selling points for a clip on to me.
 
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All the BAE units (SkeetIR, UTM, UTC) are real collimated clip on units. They shoot within a reasonable POI (probably within 2 moa).

The Trijicon SnipeIR is not a real clip on. You still have to sight it in by moving the screen to produce the same image position in space as you see with your day optic.

The L3 LWTS is real clip on unit and holds within 2 moa of day optic zero.
 
All the BAE units (SkeetIR, UTM, UTC) are real collimated clip on units. They shoot within a reasonable POI (probably within 2 moa).

The Trijicon SnipeIR is not a real clip on. You still have to sight it in by moving the screen to produce the same image position in space as you see with your day optic.

The L3 LWTS is real clip on unit and holds within 2 moa of day optic zero.

I was under the impression that the SkeetIR and UTMs were not true collimated clip-on units even though they have some clip-on functionality. Both the Skeet and UTM type units have adjustable ocular lens systems. I thought the UTC series was the only true collimated clip-on unit in the OASYS product line but I could be wrong.

My LWTS is quite spectacular, I have had much less than 2 MOA shift on the platforms I have used it on thus far. Tomorrow night it will likely be on my suppressed 22 LR for water bottle killing.
 
I was under the impression that the SkeetIR and UTMs were not true collimated clip-on units even though they have some clip-on functionality. Both the Skeet and UTM type units have adjustable ocular lens systems. I thought the UTC series was the only true collimated clip-on unit in the OASYS product line but I could be wrong.

This is correct. Checking the specs sheets of the Skeet and the UTM show these devices have diopter adjustments, hence do not have collimating lenses. The UTC series and the SNIPE are the OASYS devices with collimating lenses.
 
The SkeetIR does have a diopter adjustment however the optic is spot on after you get your pixels sharp through your scope. It is reasonbly within an moa or 2. I have one (BAE release) and use frequently as a clip on with various 1-8 power optics.

Despite the collimating rear objective, the remainder of the scope isn’t collimated. You have to manually “sight in” by moving the screen in a similar fashion to the other Trijicon electro optics. That collimating rear objective didn’t really give the scope true clip on super powers.
 
When you run a pair of SkeetIRs as goggles, the works perfectly in binocular vision. That is a good way to tell how “aligned” your optics are. Running an m300w and a SkeetIR together will make you dizzy. Running any optical system that isn’t aligned will do that.

As you focus the m300w, the rotation of the lens in the front will constantly change the orientation of the optical distortion thereby changing your point of impact considerably.

The optical chains of the BAE products are vastly superior and much more costly. They focus in a telescoping fashion rather than rotating the lenses on an axis. Once focused, point of impact is close.
 
I ran the SNIPE side by side with the UTC for about 2 months and agree there is a vast difference in the "true clipon super power" of the UTC. I could get 8x out of the SNIPE but did have to make adjustments. With the UTC and the PVS-30 no adjustments are needed (or even possible).

oxNCHI2h.jpg


That said, for the under $10k list price thermal clipons, I'd still take the SNIPE over the other such thermal clipons I've tried as they all require such adjustments, like the olde Armasight Apollo. But the SNIPE has better image and for my eyes anyway, can leverage that better image to crank more magnification.

As to headaches, I've been running the patrol beside PVS-14 on helmet since getting it early in 2018. Before that I've been running ODIN beside PVS-14 on helmet for prior 2 years. No headaches. But I use amber glass filter on the rear lens to reduce brightness while maintaining clarity. No headaches. Prior to three years ago, before using filters on the back, headaches could be achieved by long night time exposure to the differing brightnesses seen between the 14 and the Apollo when help up frequently over many hour period as non-hands free spotter. So my eyes can induce headaches when trying to compensate for mis-matched brightness, but not for mal optical "alignment" ... apparently. Different brains work differently ??

==
Patrol and 14

ETEYTHMh.jpg


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ODIN and 14

5s51s3ph.jpg


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Haven't tried Patrol as a weapon sight yet, been too busy using it has a hands free spotter.
 
Running the M300w is a much more painful setup than running a SkeetIR.

To use SkeetIR to shoot, all that needed is to clip the unit in front of the day optic, eliminate parallax or get the pixels sharp at the higher powers and you are GTG. There is no sight in menu even if you wanted to make adjustments to the position of the digital image.

With the M300w, you go to clip on mode which goes to like 1/2x and then you are essentially moving the screen digitally to get the same parallel image you see through the day optic. If you adjust the focus especially on the front, everything changes.

Non parallel images are ultimately compensated by your brain. If you have astigmatism and get new glasses you understand this as you will be dizzy for a short period and then your brain adjusts. However that does not mean you are seeing a collimated or a parallel image that you would need to aim at the same point in space.

The SkeetIR is an incredibly designed optic. As small as it is, it can operate as a clip on without need to realign the image to parallel the day optic image.
 
OK, you like the Skeet got it !

But two different topics right?


01 Head mounted thermal
02 Clipon mounted thermal

For fusion, I use COTI/PAS-29 on 14. (one use case for head mounted NOD)

For carrying NV and thermal on head at same time, I do otherwise. Right now patrol and 14 together. While the images are closer that I would expect, I do not expect them to match. But it is still very beneficial for me to have both on head at same time.
FOr instance in recent night walk exercise. I used 14, focused at about 8 feet for navigating in gully's over down trees and branches and boulders. I used thermal to detect/ID friendly and OPFOR team members.

So various uses for various head mounted NODs.
10.01 Fusion (solution COTI/14 or other similar capability)
10.02 Thermal and 14 on head at same time, not necessarily for fusion ...

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I've had others tell me SKEETIR is 4 MOA off after a remount, if true, then not doing the "true clipon super power" thing, right? Contrasting PVS-30 and UTC are dead on, UTC I can confirm dead on out to 900 yds on heated steel silhouettes, switching it between multiple rifles, no adjustments needed or possible.
Do not expect non-clipons such as SKEET or UTM with diopters to be able to perform like that.
 
Any time IR-V chimes in it’s a good thread. That man is full of knowledge!

Carry on, let me get my popcorn