CMP M40 auction

mjh30

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Well, since most of us can't verify if its an actual Corp rifle, we can call it what it once was. A receiver from a Vietnam era Remington M700 sniper rifle. An AMU rifle just ended this past Friday, close to 4000 I believe, I bid way more than I should have and still wasn't close. Previous receivers have sold for between 4000- 5000. A great bit of history, but it will probably go for more than I'm willing to pay.
 

pmclaine

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    Well, since most of us can't verify if its an actual Corp rifle, we can call it what it once was. A receiver from a Vietnam era Remington M700 sniper rifle. An AMU rifle just ended this past Friday, close to 4000 I believe, I bid way more than I should have and still wasn't close. Previous receivers have sold for between 4000- 5000. A great bit of history, but it will probably go for more than I'm willing to pay.

    I think they state its possibly an Air Force rifle. The previous record was some $37K for a USMC M40. I think the XM may challenge that. This wont go that high but it will be spendy for what its parts are.
     

    mjh30

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    Someone posted previously that a number of USAF rifles were taken out of storage and rebarreled for competition use by the Army, possibly one of those rifles but who really knows. That cmp rifle was according to those in the know was in actual fact a USAF rifle as well, a beautiful piece of history but 36k was outlandish. This well probably go as I said before in the 4-5 range anymore than that I think is too much. The AMU rifle that just sold had anAnscuhtz trigger installed in it, some times they mill the receiver for the install, if that was the case for that rifle well hopefully it wasn't.
     

    Mike Radford

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    Well, since most of us can't verify if its an actual Corp rifle, we can call it what it once was. A receiver from a Vietnam era Remington M700 sniper rifle. An AMU rifle just ended this past Friday, close to 4000 I believe, I bid way more than I should have and still wasn't close. Previous receivers have sold for between 4000- 5000. A great bit of history, but it will probably go for more than I'm willing to pay.

    A real M40 is a real M40. If it is USMC, it is is about 5 times as common as a USAF. The real biggie is if it is real US M40. Anyone that rejects a real M40 because it is USAF is not too bright IMO. They were the same rifle. They USAF are less common. Typically they are less used. Exactly what is the problem with a USAF M40? If one can not show USMC issue, there is only a maybe there.
     

    sinister

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    A real M40 is a real M40. If it is USMC, it is is about 5 times as common as a USAF. The real biggie is if it is real US M40. Anyone that rejects a real M40 because it is USAF is not too bright IMO. They were the same rifle. They USAF are less common. Typically they are less used. Exactly what is the problem with a USAF M40? If one can not show USMC issue, there is only a maybe there.

    Exactly.

    The USAMU's M40s were most probably Air Force Air Base Ground Defense (ABGD) Rifles since they came to us via Anniston Army Depot war storage. They were pretty much what we'd call 700 Varmints in the original walnut stocks.

    SFC Chuck Gartland was NCOIC of the USAMU's program, turning in the National Match M14s and re-configuring the M40s to short-action M24s for loaner rifles at the All-Army Matches. These had H-S Precision Stocks with 10-shot single-stack detachable magazines. We executed a contract through Badger Ordnance for Leupold M3LR telescopes, rings, and bases.

    Most of the barrels were original OEM tubes. Those that weren't were re-barreled in the USAMU Custom Shop by the Olympic and Long Range Bolt Gun armorers.

    29blixy.jpg

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    mjh30

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    Mike, Sinister, I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. These rifles were designated the Remington M700 sniper rifle by Remington. We all know that they were bought by the Corp, USAF, Army and various other entities. As you probably know it was the Air Force that actually placed the first order for these rifles and not the Corp. But it was the USMC that designated them as the M40, I think this was first documented in August 69. Marty B has been collecting information, pictures etc and is writing a book on Remington's M700 sniper rifle program. I for one would love to have in my possession an actual Vietnam era Remington M700 sniper rifle whoever it was initially sold to.
     
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    Mike Radford

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    Mike, Sinister, I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. These rifles were designated the Remington M700 sniper rifle by Remington. We all know that they were bought by the Corp, USAF, Army and various other entities. As you probably know it was the Air Force that actually placed the first order for these rifles and not the Corp. But it was the USMC that designated them as the M40, I think this was first documented in August 69. Marty B has been collecting information, pictures etc and is writing a book on Remington's M700 sniper rifle program. I for one would love to have in my possession an actual Vietnam era Remington M700 sniper rifle whoever it was initially sold to.[/QUOTE


    I think you said basically what I did. They are all a wonderful piece of history. I will take a USAF rifle or a USMC rifle, especially when they are not often document to one service or the other. I refer to all of them as an M40 out of laziness I guess, not to mention the fact that typically we do not know for sure.
     

    MAT4-82

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    I tend to be hung up on correct nomenclature. I see where some of you are coming from. History is history.
    But I tend to agree that unless the air force or army used that nomenclature themselves or the particular rifle can be shown to have been on the USMC books as an M40 then it is not technically an M40.
    Doesn't lessen its value to a collector for what it IS. It just isn't THAT.
    I'm getting the feeling that CMP has got the auctioneer skill set down pretty good!
     
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    sinister

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    Marines:

    Carlos01.jpg


    Air Force:

    cap357.JPG

    estrangepan

    sniper.jpg


    Before either the Air Force or Marines type-classified them the contracts read "Remington 700":

    2mm9xxz.jpg
     
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    Badgerord

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    My records indicate that this one and the 300 m gun that sold last weekend are likely Air Force rifles, I can pretty much guarantee its not a Marine rifle. But I still want it ;)

    MJH, you are right Aug 69 is the oldest document I have found that calls it an M40. Funny thing is none of the Nam era snipers ever called it an M40 or even knew it was called an M40, they called it the Remington or the 700. Why you might ask...because it did not say M40 anywhere on the rifle. Most of the guys didn't find out it was called an M40 until the 80's

    I did find an Earlier document FMFRP-12-41 (Advanced copy) Chapter 7, Pg 140. Calls it a 40X, which I find horrible.
    It is not a 40X nor were any of the first 6 test rifles (168XXX-169XXX range) as has been reported over and over. I have 5 of the 6 test rifle serial numbers and have verified with Remington that they were M700's not 40X's.

    The only 40X thing about the M40 is the clip slot, but that does not make it a 40X. The "Trials" or test rifles were full blown BDL deluxe rifles, checkered, black grip cap, high gloss finish.

    10 days from now will be a big money day for the CMP, both this M40 and the XM-3 are going to pop at the same time.

    Sinister, where are the take off stocks from the All Army rifles???
     
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    mjh30

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    The individual that bought the AMU rifle is currently the high bidder on this current auction. I bid way more than I should on the AMU rifle but I was very leery of the Anscuhtz trigger install. Several years ago, another barreled action sold, it had a 30-06 barrel hanging on it, $4600 I think was the winning bid then. Hopefully over the coming years more of these actions will come for auction and I may be lucky enough to get one. Marty any progress with the book, put me down for one whatever it costs. Sinister great pictures, I think we all rely on Senichs books for information.
     

    sinister

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    My records indicate that this one and the 300 m gun that sold last weekend are likely Air Force rifles, I can pretty much guarantee its not a Marine rifle. But I still want it ;)

    The "Trials" or test rifles were full blown BDL deluxe rifles, checkered, black grip cap, high gloss finish.

    Sinister, where are the take off stocks from the All Army rifles???

    Marty, I wish I knew where the wood stocks went -- we got them from Anniston as barreled actions with triggers.

    The AMU built a number of International rifles on 40Xs, as well as a number of 30-06, 7mm, and 300 Win Mag rifles (yes, with Anschutz triggers installed with adaptors). Several CISM rifles had ten-shot box magazine wells welded to the bottom of the receivers while others built strictly for prone shooting kept solid bottoms to prevent action flex. CISM shooting has stages requiring rapid and sustained fire, including while standing, at 300 Meters.

    Once upon a time in the days before M24 I had USSOCOM Joint Operational Stocks Remington 700s and M40s, both marked respectively, in glossy 700 BDL - Varmint configuration; oiled walnut; and fiberglass stocks (a veritable WTF grab-bag). They all shot well, but uniformity was out the window. Throw in McMillan rifles and you had a circus of sub-MOA rifles that had been re-barreled and bedded, then camo spray-painted by the individual shooter.

    I agree that the CMP calling these M40s is if they don't include service origination documentation (other than the fact they were surplused by Uncle Sam) -- that angle is either pure brilliant marketing or a case of "Meh. Looks like an M40...it must be an M40." The DOD (Army) Small Arms Serial Number Master Registry has an abundance of detail and is updated monthly -- but I'm not sure the CMP has access to the daily .mil database.

    CMP was chartered by Congress to fund its operation and the National Matches through fees and the revenue from selling surplus US military 30 and 22 caliber rifles, ammunition, and components. Sales proceeds go into the capital operating fund. What they make off GI M1s, Carbines, 22s, and any other surplused rifles will fund the National Trophy Matches.

    The Army hosed you, the average tax-payer, by giving all the take-offs from the M24 to Remington instead of surplusing them off to the CMP. Years down the road the M2010s will cycle out as the Army buys the follow-on, which I'm assuming may or may not be a 338.

    Eventually the Marines will cycle out their current M40AX inventory (probably about 300 years from now).
     
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    Mister Ridge

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    Marty, sinister, either of you care to speculate about the other rifle? In addition to this rifle and the XM3, the CMP has an auction going for another Remington 700.
     

    eodcam

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    What I find interesting on the 700 in the McMillan stock is the optic. The wideview illuminator is the same glass we (USAF EOD) had on our M14 SMUD rifles. We started phasing those rifles out around '94 and as a career field went strictly to the m82 now m107 for SMUD. Now one of our units still uses their M14 on ordnance, they also have Remington 700 7.62 rifles they use. I asked if they were M24's and they said they aren't. So naturally I got excited and started hoping they were original M700 Snipers! And started hitting them up for info. Hell all I need are serial numbers! Anyhow as I was waiting for the info, the CMP listed the 700 in question. I sent the link to the guys yesterday to see if it is the same as their rifles. I'll let you guys know what I find out.
     

    Badgerord

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    Sinister, there Army did not hose us on the M24's, if the CMP sold them none could afford them, they would all be $10K rifle only.

    Would anyone be willing to buy a kitted out M24 for $3500.00?

    The other thing about this action is its only an action, the barrel and lug are wrong and would not fit an M40 stock.

    Pmclain, the $36K rifle was USAF not USMC.
     
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    mjh30

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    Sinister, I was leery of the AMU rifle because I wasn't sure if they milled the receiver out or used the adapter. As for the new Remington on the auction site, it does fall outside of the range of the c prefix receivers bought by the Marine Corp in 92. I'm sure it has an interesting history, but the jewel we will all agree are the US marked ones. As for the Army's M24's I'm not sure what sort of deal was made that retuned them to Remington. Occasionally one comes up for sale in the civilian market and the price is quite reasonable compared to what one would probably make at auctione at CMP. I believe that some of the Army's first M24's were US marked but only a small number.
     

    eodcam

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    Sinister, where did the pic of the AF Security Forces Airman with a rifle at Port Arms come From? Is it a 700 or a 70? It's the same rifle in the second pic, correct? The stock looks a little funny in the first picture, and where the sling mounts behind the bipod, reminds me of a hand stop on a 40x stock or a model 70 marksman stock.
     
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    sinister

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    The Air Force shots come from the Air Force EST Association and the "Project Safeside" Association web sites. I can't find the M40 photo I want from the Air Base Security book which covered sapper attacks on US air bases in RVN.

    By the 80s many 7.62 rifles deployed were stocked in McMillans. This photo from Vietnam vintage 1968 shows what could have been Remingtons or Winchester 70s in Marksman stocks:

    hester_scan2.jpg


    1041st Security Police Squadron Snipers: from left to right - Tony Gasbarro, Ron Glasscock, and Jim Maples. Tony Gasbarro, top graduate in his Army Ranger Class while on assignment as a sniper was responsible for the first recorded enemy kill by the 1041st SPS.

    Photo Courtesy: Gerard Hester - 1041st SPS (Test)
     

    MescaBug

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    My records indicate that this one and the 300 m gun that sold last weekend are likely Air Force rifles, I can pretty much guarantee its not a Marine rifle. But I still want it ;)

    Marty,

    Any way you can confirm that this barreled action is authentic? It doesnt seems to come with any authenticity papers... The experts will say it is authentic, but nowadays, we never know.
     

    mjh30

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    Mescabug, with regard a to your question. I was under the impression that all DOD obsolete small arms ended up at the Anniston Depot, a small number of these are turned over to CMP which has a facility there. I cannot see how anything that was not originally purchased by DOD might end up there. I for one would love to have the opportunity to see all the bits and pieces stored in that facility.
     

    MAT4-82

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    Marty,

    Any way you can confirm that this barreled action is authentic? It doesnt seems to come with any authenticity papers... The experts will say it is authentic, but nowadays, we never know.


    Authentic as what?
    Looking at the listing and reading this thread shows this barreled action to be a US marked Rem 700 which per Marty was purchased by USAF. Nothing posted either place indicates it was ever the property of the USMC.
    I am not aware that anyone else typed this item as M40. ( data to the contrary please correct me I welcome documentable correction ). Provenance relative to the CMP listing title of this item is the question. IMO
     

    MescaBug

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    That answers my question, thank you sir ;)

    As I live in Canada, I am not fully aware of the CMP and miltary arms surplus and how it operates.

    Authentic as what?
    Looking at the listing and reading this thread shows this barreled action to be a US marked Rem 700 which per Marty was purchased by USAF. Nothing posted either place indicates it was ever the property of the USMC.
    I am not aware that anyone else typed this item as M40. ( data to the contrary please correct me I welcome documentable correction ). Provenance relative to the CMP listing title of this item is the question. IMO

    Authentic as in 'real' Army or whatever property. I never mentioned USMC or M40. I just wanted to know how to authenticate it, whatever the authenticity may be.

    I can have a 400$ 7-digit receiver clip-slotted, have the U.S. logo laser engraved and people will bid on it without even knowing its a forgery. People know about those weapons, but like me, they dont know thru which official channels they go to be released to the general public. So they bid blindly, hoping to score the real deal.
     
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    MAT4-82

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    That answers my question, thank you sir ;)

    As I live in Canada, I am not fully aware of the CMP and miltary arms surplus and how it operates.



    Authentic as in 'real' Army or whatever property. I never mentioned USMC or M40. I just wanted to know how to authenticate it, whatever the authenticity may be.

    I can have a 400$ 7-digit receiver clip-slotted, have the U.S. logo laser engraved and people will bid on it without even knowing its a forgery. People know about those weapons, but like me, they dont know thru which official channels they go to be released to the general public. So they bid blindly, hoping to score the real deal.

    PM sent
     

    Mister Ridge

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    I wished the pics showed a better view of the barrel contour. If it were the heavier M40A1 contour, you could buy it, the Unertl 10x they have, and the takeoff stock on ebay and have a pretty neat rifle.
     

    MescaBug

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    The muzzle end looks a bit smaller in diameter vs the M40A1 profile. It has quite a taper to it. I can be wrong though, pictures are sometimes misleading.
     

    pmclaine

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    I wished the pics showed a better view of the barrel contour. If it were the heavier M40A1 contour, you could buy it, the Unertl 10x they have, and the takeoff stock on ebay and have a pretty neat rifle.

    albeit......a very empty wallet.
     

    Badgerord

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    The barrel is not an M40A1 contour, the Lug is Not Marine Corps.

    Also it has a late model bolt shroud but the bolt handle is period correct.

    No mention is made if the bolt is serialized to the action, I will attempt to find out if it is.
     

    MescaBug

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    I just noticed that this action is very close to the 2 7-digit USMC M40 presentation rifles: 6257207 and 6257259

    I think there is a third one close in Senich's book...
     

    mjh30

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    Mescabug, I believe there were 4 or 5 USMC M40 presentation rifles built, serial numbers for two are listed in Senichs book 6257207 & 6257276. One presentation rifle was sold by Rock Island Auction in late 2009, ($14950) serial # on that rifle was 6257284, I'm pretty sure that 6257227 was another but I would have to check my notes. The CMP rifle that sold for $36000 was 6257259, another barreled action that CMP sold a few years ago was 6257301 $4650). I'm under the impression that the presentation rifles were originally an Air Force contract rifle but Marty B would know for sure. The highest serial number I have seen on a US marked, clip slotted Model 700 is 6257341.
     

    mjh30

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    The AMU rifle was a bargain compared to this. I suppose its simply because they labelled it a M40. As for the XM-3 well it went cheap IMHO.
     

    HD-Ghost

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    CMP bidders are way more rich than I.

    A couple of weeks ago, an 03-A4 without mount, rings, and scope went for $4700. It would take at least another $1000 to bring it up to complete. And it wasn't even a "Z series".

    Wonder if I could get CMP to auction off some of my stuff?
     

    Badgerord

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    "And it wasn't even a "Z series".

    Funny thing, the Z rifles used to be less desirable.

    Loot at what the auction Grands go for, I have bought rifles is need mint condition for $900, and that with in the last 6 months.
    Same rifle on the Auction goes for $3k.

    I think what it is, is guys with no collecting experience but some $$$ think if they get an auction rifle the correctness/ provenance is solid.
     

    pmclaine

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    Wonder if I could get CMP to auction off some of my stuff?

    That question was asked this week. They said they will. Once you donate the item to them they auction it and keep the proceeds.
     

    MAT4-82

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    If I may quote myself from post 14 in this thread!



    I'm getting the feeling that CMP has got the auctioneer skill set down pretty good!


    This is what auctions are set up to do. Take advantage of the emotional and spontaneous reaction in human nature.
    Thats why these are not closed bid and why they run so long. I would not be surprised if other well known auctioneer tactics were also employed.
     

    Badgerord

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    MAT,

    You are not wrong, but there is one thing, the provenance is as good as you can get with a CMP auction. Besides, it I am going to shell out a butt load of schekles,
    I would prefer it was to keep the CMP flush and not line some auctioneers pockets for being a fast talker.

    One to the M40A1's that sold at Julia's for something like $25K was claimed to be original, and now that it has sold at such a prestigious ;) auction house its provenance is golden.

    Sad thing is I built the rifle from scratch, I even stamped it U.S.
    But if you know what you are doing its easy to tell its not real.
     
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