Suppressors convince me/ help me

B

balls2elwall

Private
Minuteman
Dec 8, 2008
70
0
37
Tampa, FL
#1
alrighty everyone,
i really hope this does'nt start any outright arguments or hurt anyones feelings. so please all constructive comments are welcome.
I'm a college student doing a research paper on class III weapons and accessories specifically in the state of Florida. i myself am a competative pistol shooter and avid steward of the land. my question for everyone here is why does the average citizen need noise canceling devices (cans, suppressor, silencers, you know what im talking about lol)
so if theres anyone here that has a valid argument for why they are legal with proper liscensing. also my paper is on SBR's, armor-piercing ammunition, full auto weapons, and dabbles in rounds like the .50BMG and 5.7 as well as black tip 5.56

thankyou again for your help and any link to a related website is greatly appreciated.
 
#4
Re: convince me/ help me

no i registered for long range shooting techniques and tips, its paid off in spades the informations i got on here was fantastic which is why i turned to this forum for more information i know very little to nothing about. i trust the expertise are available here. thanks for your input husker
 
#7
Re: convince me/ help me

i think i follow you and yes i agree to an extent if a can helps that much with muzzle flip and follow up shots. I appreciate your valid point it really helps me write my paper with more thought to every stance.
 
#8
Re: convince me/ help me

When we start talking about firearm suppressors, some people get all weird and think only police, military, and Hollywood assassins need them.

But once you talk in more generic terms, the reasons suddenly become obvious:

(1) Any device that is so loud that the operator must wear ear protection or risk hearing damage can benefit from a muffler.

(2) A side benefit of protecting the device operator is that mufflers reduce noise pollution that must be endured by other parties in the area.

You might as well ask why the "average citizen need noise canceling devices" on a car?
 
#9
Re: convince me/ help me

bedlam thats a fantastic response and its not an angle i had considered. i had only been thinking of who besides military and police need a suppressor but then i considered shooting performance and only saw a few minor advantages. thankyou again bedlam
 
#12
Re: convince me/ help me

One more thing. This isn't what you asked, but it's related and it's important.

Here in Washington State we recently (just this year) legalized the use of suppressors. I listed to the political debate on the radio. The "keep it illegal" crowd had one single fundamental reason. The reason stated was that suppressor use enabled people to commit crimes silently. Despite being hours long, there was no other reason provided in this debate to keep suppressors illegal, and I have never heard any other reason elsewhere either.

This is critically important because that reason is 100% wrong, and once removed, there is nothing left.

For the vast majority of people, the only education they have about firearm suppressors is from TV. On TV, or in the movies, suppressors are called silencers and they are in fact very nearly silent. This creates a false but widely believed impression that you can use a "silencer" to commit crime and murder without alerting other parties in the area.

This, generally speaking, is not true. Nor is it even close to true. Just like a muffler does not make a car silent, a suppressor does not make a gunshot silent. You can still hear cars, right?

While there are a few select combinations of ammunition and suppressor that are slow and weak enough to be nearly "Hollywood" silent, those are exceptional.

The truth is that the vast majority of firearm suppressors do not silence or even come close to silencing the report of a gunshot. Even with a suppressor, many rifle rounds are still so loud that they can cause hearing damage in certain circumstances. For example, shoot .308 through a suppressor at an indoor range with no hearing protection and you'll be sorry.

Even with .223 and being outdoors, most suppressors are still so loud that they make me uncomfortable. Really, they are <span style="font-style: italic">that loud</span>. This is why experienced people do not refer to them as silencers.

So if the fundamental reason to disallow a "silencer" is that it enables silent crime, and that reason has no basis other than a widely believed but ultimately false impression, then one can only conclude there is no valid reason to disallow suppressors.

The "silent crime" belief is so widespread that even the person <span style="font-style: italic">supportive of legalization</span> on the radio debate thought it was true; he had actually conceded that point. Eventually someone with suppressor experience called in to educate both sides. When this happened, I was really interested to see what argument the "con" debater would switch to. He ignored or chose not to believe the caller, and simply went on with the argument that legalizing suppressor use would enable silent crime. He had nothing else.
 
#13
Re: convince me/ help me

thanks for another sound argument bedlam, i have been around on a hand full of occasions different suppressed firearms and am aware of how fake hollywood is. I'm curious if anyone has any ideas as to who i can quote thats pro noise suppressors thats "qualified as according to my proffessor" i'm by no means discounting anyone on heres qualifications i just need a credible source that my professor can varify.
 
#14
Re: convince me/ help me

Even in Europe, where many gun laws are stricter then those here in the good ol' USA, suppressors are not only legal, but required to shoot and hunt in certain areas.

The myth is exactly that, a myth. No one is fast roping from the ceiling ducts while shooting the security guards with a pistol so silent that the person standing in the hall never even knew it happened.

After that I'm going to race my $100k supra, that I just threw together from my race winnings, through the streets of LA while never being stopped in traffic, having an accident or scratching my ride after jumping it over hills repeatedly.
 
#15
Re: convince me/ help me

If your professor is looking for a qualified person to quote, he is more then welcome to stand next to my 338 lapua when it barks, and then he can quote himself as to the reasons of suppressing such a beast!
 
#16
Re: convince me/ help me

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: balls2elwall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its certainly a possibility husker </div></div>Its not a possibility. Its certainty .... as OSHA, EPA and all the governmental agencies would require the loud noise makers to suppress the noise levels to acceptable levels.
 
#17
Re: convince me/ help me

Your "minor advantageous" speaks legion.

You say you are are focused "on class III weapons and accessories specifically in the state of Florida" yet go on to mention "armor-piercing ammunition, .50BMG and 5.7 as well as black tip 5.56" all outside the scope of Class III.

Son, PM me with a link to your paper thus far.

If your work is serious, and the paper disciplined, I will do everything I can to help as much as you can tolerate. If it is "other than," than you will have the benefit of a solid, reasoned response prior to your professor's.

 
#18
Re: convince me/ help me

Questions like this is the reason that I like SH so damn much. If you were on a certain AR forum and asked this question, in this manner, you would have been defamed. I love the professionalism here.
First, I think you need to do some more research to ask a better question or questions. Don't just go out to XYZ range and listen to someone shoot, find someone who will let you shoot their suppressed firearm. I believe the topic of my paper would be more along the lines of the benefits of suppressor ownership.

I believe I see what you are getting at with the "cop killer" ammo, .50cal rifles, MGs, 5.7, and suppressors...and I really don't like it. This is the point where I would usually go on and on about why I believe the 2nd Amendment gives me the RIGHT to own all of the afore mentioned items. Have we forgotten that our Forefathers ensured us our RIGHTS so that we are guaranteed life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? And that if the government became so inept or corrupt that WE THE PEOPLE have the DUTY to overthrow it!

As a dealer who deals in NFA, I deal with the most law-abiding people on the face of the earth. In order to legally possess NFA items, by definition, one must be extremely law-abiding.

Last thing...there is no such thing as a "class III" gun or item. Class III refers to the Special Occupation Tax (SOT) that I pay annually. I am a class II and a class III SOT. What you are researching is Title II (Gun Control Act of '68) firearms or firearms that fall under the National Firearms Act of 1934. You should research both of those pieces of shi..I mean legislation and the Firearm Owner's Protection Act (FOPA) of 1986.

For an industry contact, I would suggest Josh Waldron of SilencerCo for your professor's approval. SilencerCo has put a ton of money into their "Suppressors Are Legal" campaign. They are working to form a silencer group (ASA) somewhat like the NRA. Good luck and I hope that you look at this subject with an open mind and get a good education on it.
 
#19
Re: convince me/ help me

Suppressors make shooting more enjoyable not more illegal.

Shooting suppressed reduces noise, reduces recoil, (usually) improves accuracy, and reduces muzzle flash.

If you shoot 8 rounds a year getting ready for elk or deer hunting, a suppressor is probably not important for you. If you shoot hundreds or thousands of rounds per year, then using a suppressor makes the shooting experience more enjoyable. Shooting with a muzzle brake makes the experience more enjoyable by reducing recoil. A suppressor does the same thing, but also reduces the noise rather than increasing it for the shooter.

As HPW pointed out, some countries it is required to use a suppressor. In many hunting locations of Europe, even if it is not required, it is considered rude not to use a suppressor.

Additionally, I have four small children who like to shoot. When we shoot (and we use suppressors), I can more easily train them on shooting safety and technique. With the suppressor, we don't need cumbersome earmuffs to protect our hearing, and our communication is unobstructed. In this way, a suppressor arguably contributes to making the event more safe.

Finally, a note about terminology. Today it is most common to use the term suppressor. Saying "silencer" implies that the gun report is "silent". The noise is suppressed but typically not silent. However, silencer is also a correct term. It was predominantly the term originally used to describe a "suppressor". The original device/invention was a "silencer". It is also the term ATF has us use. You can use either term interchangeably, but some people will get get upset one way or the other. Take for example a few company names: SilencerCo, Silenced America, and HTG Silencers. We all use the "silencer" reference. It's ok, but when using it as a descriptor, suppression is more appropriate than silence.
 
#20
Re: convince me/ help me

hey thanks everyone my paper is well on its way. i really appreciate everyones professionalism, i knew i could count on this forum for sound advice and comments. As far as my paper also including armor-piercing ammunition; part of my research paper is to also cover those items not covered under the NFA that i feel are similar if not more dangerous than those items already covered under the umbrella of the NFA. I chose florida because i live here and i needed to par down on my essay a little to fit everything into 4 pages or less.
silenced america- i really appreciate your advice and speedy reply. I definitely understand the second amendments importance in this matter however im trying hard to stay away from the second amendment. because lets face it thats a very very long discussion, i did however include the need for a well armed and trained militia that needs to be armed with similar weapons as those (our would be agressor).

HTG-Mike- as a college student your correct i dont get out to shoot nearly as much as id like, especially with my rifles however i do shoot uspsa and shoot atleast twice a week and as such can sympathise with wanting to muffle the gun shots as well as reduce muzzle flip and recoil. I'm just not completely convinced they should be so easy to purchase. I suppose there is the argument that we should be less worried about those who are willing to pay the tax and do the background check as opposed to those who just download a design and visit two different machine shops and then assemble it themselves.

Rolling thunder- i appreciate your willingness to help me and will PM you with my next revision. feel free to tear it apart (i do well with constructive criticism and never take it personal)

Once again thanks everyone this is really helping to make my paper more informative as well as more thorough. Once again i promise everyone im not being a pain in the ass college hippy trying to take away everyones rights, just trying to write an informed research paper, and dont worry im an Architecture major not a law major lol
 
#21
Re: convince me/ help me

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: balls2elwall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
however i do shoot uspsa and shoot atleast twice a week and as such can sympathise with wanting to muffle the gun shots as well as reduce muzzle flip and recoil. I'm just not completely convinced they should be so easy to purchase. I suppose there is the argument that we should be less worried about those who are willing to pay the tax and do the background check as opposed to those who just download a design and visit two different machine shops and then assemble it themselves.
</div></div>

First, let me say this...Silencers, suppressors, mufflers, whatever you want to call them should NOT be regulated. If you read the background of the NFA of '34, you will see that they were not the main target but were thrown in at the 25th hour.

Gun laws don't stop crime. Should we have a process to determine that only people who abide by the law and are of sound mind be able to purchase firearms? Yes, we should. I implore you to look at FBI gun crime data. This paper you are writing seems so damn subjective and you don't seem to have the information that you really need. I have an advanced education, and I am here to tell you that a research paper should be well researched and documented. If you want to base your conclusion on the opinion that you came to based on research, by all means do so. I don't understand where people get off thinking more regulation or the need for stricter laws stop crime. CRIMINALS DON'T FUCKING CARE ABOUT THE LAW. Does a "gun free zone" stop gun crime? Hell no! It only keeps people who refuse to break the law unprotected. The notion is ridiculous.

Maybe you should look at hearing damage statistics. One shot from a rifle while out deer hunting can permanently damage your hearing. I am an avid hunter and I will be the first to admit that I am not going to stop and put in ear pro before I take a shot; there is usually not time to put in ear pro.

It really bothers me that you (et. al.) don't see the need. I would like to spend some time educating you. There are some people that would rather remain ignorant, but you are trying so I will give you the benefit of doubt. The same people who don't see the need for suppressors don't see the need for your "hi-cap" magazines for your shooting competitions. I mean, do you really need 17 rounds? Who needs 17 rounds? You don't need FN 5.7 or "black tip" ammo to penetrate level III-A body armor. XM193 will do the job just fine out of an AR pistol.

I think maybe you should look at ways of allowing law abiding people to better protect them and their family. I sleep with a 9" .300blk and AAC 762-SDN-6. If there is a bump in the night, my hearing isn't blown after the first round and I will still be able to have awareness of where the bad guy is. Just one more reason to own a can. Plus, with all of that loud noise that you make unsuppressed, you are just a rude and inconsiderate bastard!
grin.gif


And they aren't easy to purchase...it's a pain in the ass. It's not like going to the neighborhood package store and getting loaded and killing someone with your car. I think we have bigger fish to fry.

-OUT

Edit: Mike, I really liked your post. It hit the nail on the head. I started reading it earlier but got sidetracked
 
#22
Re: convince me/ help me

Not to call you out or anything, but I thought you were conducting a research paper? I don't recall any of my research papers being less than 10 pages, not including works cited.
 
#23
Re: convince me/ help me

I am doing a research paper its for my ENC 1102 Lit class. its our final paper and i guess the professor doesnt want to read that many papers... i dunno just following guidlines. anyways....

thanks again silenced america, i couldnt agree more with the if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have them. My paper is definitely very subjective and as such im trying to cover it from all sides in the very limited space im given, included in my paper are crime statistics, NFA guidlines, BATF regs, and of course personal opinion is included. Well its safe to say you guys have successfully turned me into a beleiver about suppressors; I'm afraid I am still not completely on board with ammunition designed specifically to defeat level III body armor.
In all honesty i just finished building a Bulgarian AK-74 and i think we all know what the 5.45 round does. LOL.

Anyways, i really appreciate everyones input. You've helped me write a more thorough and convincing paper. Hopefully i get an A!

thanks again everyone for participating.
 
#26
Re: convince me/ help me

The argument?

BECAUSE WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE FREE HERE, AND INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

We don't live in a world where Tom Cruise plays Minority Report in reality.

We have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness so long as we don't infringe on anyone else's inalienable rights to the same.
 
#27
Re: convince me/ help me

which angle are trying to achieve? in the end are you trying to impress some tree huggin hippy professor, or convince a tree huggin hippy proffesor he's a fucking retard?
 
#29
Re: convince me/ help me

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The argument?

BECAUSE WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE FREE HERE, AND INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

We don't live in a world where Tom Cruise plays Minority Report in reality.

We have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness so long as we don't infringe on anyone else's inalienable rights to the same. </div></div>
Finally... you can sum your whole paper up with what ^ he said!!!
 
#30
Re: convince me/ help me

<span style="font-size: 8pt"><span style="font-style: italic">my question for everyone here is why does the average citizen need noise canceling devices </span></span>

1) Must there be a "need" for someone to own something? Do you "need" that college degree you are working on? Why do you "need" it? Won't that possible allow you to make more money than you "need", and following along with the logic of late, money that is an easy target for taxation? Why not give that money to someone who needs it and drop out of school. What if you become one of the rich who will be taxed more for the money they don't "need?" How dare you have more than I! It is O.K. to want something and then go get it.

2) I agree with a previous post about freedom. We are free to pursue happiness, and suppressors definitely help my happiness. I want suppressors, I don't need them, and I think that should be good enough.

3) Why are we forced to have mufflers on cars but not on rifles? Perhaps we should be asked why we need a rifle that makes so much noise when we could easily put something on it that makes it more gentlemanly and neighbor-friendly?

4) Makes shooting more pleasant. Manages recoil. Helps a shooter shoot more relaxed without muzzle blast. Better for others are the range nearby, and so on.

5) Research what happens when something travels faster than the speed of sound in air. That phenomenon happens with all bullets that travel faster than the speed of sound, no matter what is at their muzzle as they leave the barrel.


<span style="font-style: italic"> </span> <span style="font-size: 8pt">so if theres anyone here that has a valid argument for why they are legal with proper liscensing.</span>

5) Perhaps the paper should be about why these items were ever illegal in the first place.
 
#32
Re: convince me/ help me

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: balls2elwall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks for another sound argument bedlam, i have been around on a hand full of occasions different suppressed firearms and am aware of how fake hollywood is. I'm curious if anyone has any ideas as to who i can quote thats pro noise suppressors thats "qualified as according to my proffessor" i'm by no means discounting anyone on heres qualifications i just need a credible source that my professor can varify. </div></div>

I'm a college student as well, and there is a proper way to site online forums, so that they become academically sound sources. Let me know if you need APA, MLA, or whatever and I can help you site this whole thread so that you can use the information. Granted your particular professor may not like it so I would ask, but according to the APA it is credible and they provide a guide line in their 6th edition manual (which I own) for siting forums. Cheers
 
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