Cops and guns......no joke

[Guest]

I've got to tell someone this. The following are parts of actual conversations I have had with various members of my department's command staff regarding our firearm/ammunition inventory.

(The other day I was asked to brief on of the new officers on long guns we have at our disposal: Bushy POS carbines, Colt M16's and 2 M14's. Prior to showing the officer one of the Colt's, I removed the magazine, locked the bolt, and checked the chamber. Upon removing the mag, I noticed the top round was an XM193. The next was M855 green tip, and they were alternating in this fashion. Later that morning, I inquired about this method of ammo selection.) Here is what was said:

Me - Is there a reason we are mixing ammo in the rifle mags?

Command Staffer - Mixing?

Me - Look, this was loaded with alternating 55gr and 62gr!

CS - Oh, I thought all we had was the Federal brand stuff. Does the green mean it's different?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

...hey...he could have been color blind

 

[mgd45]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

Who's rifle was it...? Who loaded the mag....? I would ask that person.....unless it was the certain command staff person you spoke with. I can tell you that none of our command staff has a glue about firearms or ammunition.......and the Patrol Capt. just retired as a full Col. from the Army......scary....

 

[Hatchie]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who's rifle was it...? Who loaded the mag....? I would ask that person.....unless it was the certain command staff person you spoke with. I can tell you that none of our command staff has a glue about firearms or ammunition.......and the Patrol Capt. just retired as a full Col. from the Army......scary.... </div></div>
When we were developing our program to issue AR's to the officers, we had a very high ranking member ask us
"Why does a Patrol Officer need a machine gun?"
Of course he's also had a couple of AD's on the range. We spray painted a circle around one gouge in the asphalt.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hatchie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we had a very high ranking member ask us
"Why does a Patrol Officer need a machine gun?"
</div></div>


Two Words:

North Hollywood.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

...why yes i remember this...dash cam and all made national news....

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Texagator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...we and a neighboring agency had some bad guys shoot the hell out of our cars with automatic weapons... </div></div>

We're that 'neighboring agency', and it STILL took us 10 months to get Patrol rifles in the cars!!

 

[Kinsman]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

I used to be part of a gunsmith shop about a hundred feet from the local PD. Some of them were pretty sharp about guns, but most were , as mgd 45 said, didn't have a 'glue."
One brought me a Rem 870 that wouldn't chamber.
3" mag shells...2 3/4 " chamber...DUH

 

[Hatchie]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hatchie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we had a very high ranking member ask us
"Why does a Patrol Officer need a machine gun?"
</div></div>


Two Words:

North Hollywood. </div></div>
My point was we started out explaining how the AR's were semi-auto and would give us another.....aw Hell...forget it...

 

[30-378]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

Ahhhh I know the feeling. It took me years of preaching to the Chief in our dept. to get us AR-15's. He said that council was not going for it. It only took only took 6 armed robberies with in a short time before they , council, figured out that HUMMMMM maybe we should issue partol rifles to the guys.

You would think after all the shit that has been going on with Officer slayings on the rise , school shootings , the rise in unemployment and related thefts against persons and property and lets not forget the 2 most dangerous things in a patrol officers normal day , TRAFFIC STOPS AND DOMSTICS.

But hey who the hell are we to tell them what type of firearms and equipment is needed on the street. After all they answer calls and know what is the best for the department.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

Took the death of a Sheriff's Deputy to get a patrol rifle program going on my old department after years of asking for one. The Police Department we shared our jurisdiction with decided they still weren't interested. Took the death of one of their Officers a few years later for that Department to pull their heads out of the asses. Both men were killed by rifles.

It's a shame but typical. Administrators run most Departments, not those who have actually worked the streets or paid attention to what was going on in years.

 

[Guest]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

I don't know what's worse:

Not having the rifle/equipment at all or not using it to your advantage when you do have it. Same shitty outcome


Here's another one for you guys. We had a new hire who wasn't going to make the cut. He saw the writing on the wall and quit. When he turned his gear in, he goes to empty his weapon. The mag falls to the floor because it wasn't seated properly. Shocked and horrified, the Chief asks "Have you been walking around all day with your gun like that?" The resignee replies, "Naw, I haven't messed with it since the range day." The range day was 5 days prior.

This guy also never asked for ID during a field interview either. His nickname was "Meat Shield".

 

[The_Punisher]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

I dont think half the people in the 2 academies I went to had shot a pistol let alone anything else. There was 3 military guys (2+ me) and a Coastie (non military). We had a class room course for like 4 weeks, then 4 weeks of range time. Most people passed in the 60-70% percent range.

Then the Sgt. had scoped rifles or M16's no optics. Kinda hard being in a rural area, knowing that a guy can shot holes in your car and vest from 800 yds.

If you had to shoot to save a LEO, victim, child, from a perp and the distance was anything more than 20 yds, a carbine is the best option! Defensively, there is no comparison.

 

[The_Punisher]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

Texagator,

Why the desire to use a AR over an MP5 for entries? I can see some advantages each way.

 

[spswatip]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

Cops are just like every other segment of society. Some are smart, some are not. Some are hardworking, some are not. Some are gun nuts, some are not. Most are somewhere in-between. But I am also surprised at the general knowledge regarding common guns/ammo or lack thereof. And speaking of guns/etc. I am constantly amazed at the general level of mediocrity with pistol accuracy. We shoot glock .40's and a large portion of folks on my department aren't very good shots, and don't really have a desire to shoot and/or get better. I just didn't anticipate that when I came on. I hadn't shot much of any pistol (or rifle for that matter) when I came on but I wanted to be able to shoot good, for obvious reasons, so I worked hard to become better. A lot of guys on my outfit are just happy to qualify and leave it at that. I didn't anticipate that at all.

We also use AR's for entries, and there are advantages/disadvantages to both. AR's provide more stopping power and when used with the right ammo over-penetration can be managed. We used to run MP5's (before my day) in .40 but they were converted from 9mm and couldn't handle the additional beating from the .40 and were having issues with breaking etc. And the maintenance/parts/service from HK wasn't keeping up with our needs so we switched. The perimeter guys also carry them into position before switching to our bolts, so the whole team has a consistent weapon platform/training, and parts/etc. are readily available. That being said I am not a big fan of the 223/556 round and wish we could switch to something else like a 6.8 or something with more stopping power but the cost of the ammo doesn't make that much of a possibility.

 

[The_Punisher]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

Well said, especially the long hallway shot! I am a proponet of AR's, but think a MP5 is great choice. The penetration issue works both ways, alot of depts., issue a reduced charge ammo to counter this. A real issue is what ammo your using in both platforms. A shot to the Brain stem with with either is lights out. The 223 is famous for pass thru's with little effect and the 9mm +P+ out of a longer barrel gains another 150 fps ( cant find the exact number). My issue with the 223 is the overpenetration at close range, going into perimeter people, other searching units or hostages. I see the advantage going to the AR past 50 yds.

 

[Billk]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

I work for the same dept. as Texagator and when seven escaped inmates (The Texas 7) killed Irving PD Officer Aubrey Hawkins , we pushed extremely hard to get rifles. We finally did get 20 rifles for a 340 man department, but it was heavily resisted and too little too late. When the other assholes shot up Richardson and Plano several years later with full auto rifles, everyone upstairs was shitting in their pants wondering why we didn't have rifles throughout the department. They finally did make it happen and we now have an OUTSTANDING rifle program. However, the bottom line is that most administrators have no idea of what is going on below them and the proactive ideas of the rank and file are quite often dismissed until reality hits them in the face. Hell, most of my admin doesn't even know what their three police dogs look like much less what ammo I carry in my rifle......

Shit, Texagator's Lt. was walking around one night several years ago (before he was a Lt.) with an unloaded MP5 on a shots fired call where a subject was believed to be armed with a rifle. He walked by me and I noticed that there was no mag in the weapon and no mag on his person. I said "Hey, don't you think you should load that" and of course he was embarassed as hell and ran back to his car. He is a dipshit and yes, I have told him so and will again very, very soon........

Just because they have rank doesn't mean they are squared away. Someone once told me the higher they promote, the less oxygen they get.

Texagator on the other hand is a squared away MoFo and needs to promote higher!!!!!!

 

[Billk]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

Although my posts are a little off topic, I feel it appropriate to include this since I referenced Officer Hawkins in my previous post..



Officer Aubrey Wright Hawkins #830


Served from 10-4-99 to 12-24-00

Assignment at time of death - Patrol Division

On December 24, 2000, at 6:29 P.M., Officer Aubrey Hawkins was dispatched to a suspicious circumstance call at the Oshman's Sporting Goods Store at State Highway 183 and Belt Line Road. Officer Hawkins took the call from a restaurant less than one mile away where he had just finished eating Christmas Eve dinner with his wife, Lori, his son, his mother and grandmother. Aubrey arrived before any other units and approached from the north entrance from the service road. He drove through the parking lot looking at the front of the business then around the south side to the rear of the building. As he made it to the west side loading dock area and entered the driveway, he came under a barrage of gunfire without warning and had no time to take evasive or defensive action. Mortally wounded, Officer Hawkins was pulled from his squad car and run over by the killers. What had begun as a suspicious circumstance call turned out to be a robbery-in-progress committed by seven dangerous and violent escaped prisoners (known as the Texas 7) from the Texas Department of Corrections Facility in Huntsville, Texas, earlier that month. It was later learned that a lookout to the east of the store had seen his approach and warned the others causing them to abandon the numerous store employees that were huddled together, and bound, inside the store. Officer Hawkins' arrival to the dock area had coincided with the exit, from the building, of the escaped convicts providing them with an overwhelming advantage. Following the murder of Officer Hawkins, international media coverage followed the largest manhunt in Texas history. The manhunt ended in January 2001 in the communities of Woodland Park and Colorado Springs, Colorado, with the suicide of one escapee and the nonviolent capture of the other six after law enforcement located and descended upon them. The cold-blooded murder of Officer Hawkins on Christmas Eve tore at the very fabric of law, order and decency. The chaos, sorrow, and heartbreak created in the lives of his loved ones and the community has healed somewhat over time, but the scars of that tragic holiday season and Aubrey's memory will not be forgotten. With these words and feelings that Lori wrote, you can judge for yourself the void the world has due to the loss of Officer Aubrey Wright Hawkins:

"He was the kind of father that all the kids in our neighborhood wanted to be around. The love and relationship between Aubrey and Andrew is indescribable. It was a relationship that most parents could only dream of having. The 9-year-old little boy was Aubrey's pride and joy. They were "buddies". It breaks my heart that Aubrey will never get to see Andrew grow up to be the man he always taught him to be. Aubrey was the kind of son who worried about his mom living alone. He always looked out for her and made sure she was safe. He truly loved her from the bottom of his heart. Aubrey was a loving and devoted husband. He was my best friend. He made me laugh when nobody else could. His face would "light-up" every time I walked into a room. Never again will I hear him come home and yell throughout the house . . . "Where's my girl?" Never again will I feel his big arms wrapped around me and his kiss on my forehead."

 

[The_Punisher]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

My condolences. I do remember reading this.

 

[The_Punisher]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

6mm x 47, is the most logical transition for the AR for both Military and LE.

 

[MMA-Migraine]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

That kind of crap happens all the time and all over the world, specially in europe.

 

[sjohnny]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

My boss readily admits he is not a gun guy. About a year ago he commented that he thought the .357SIG was too hot a round for our purposes and that if we didn't already have the guns and lots of ammo he thought we should switch to 10mm. I told him that I would totally support that switch.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

FAL's are cool, but they do have a serious rep to overcome to some folks:

Improper use:

Note the very tense attitude of the young Soldier who was trained to despise the place he is in.

Proper Use:

The 'Provo' uses his newly found FAL with gusto and a lack of intimidation

 

[mgd45]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

Our dept was enlightened enough to finally get patrol rifles on a grant. So we got some old colt military M16 A1 rifles. I came to work one morning & they had already shot them at the range. Apparently they had already ordered several cases of ammo for training purposes before they got the rifles.

So I pull up & one of them asks me if I might know why the rifles are slinging the bullets sideways into the target. I told them that they were shooting the wrong weighted bullets through the rifles, that they needed to shoot lighter ones like the 55 grain. He looked totally surprised & asked me. "How do you know what bullets we're shooting?? We haven't shown or told anyone about the ammo or rifles yet!".

I simply stated, "Well, this rifle has a 1/12 twist barrel which is for the 55 grain bullets, if it's slinging the bullets sideways then you got heavier bullets.....like 62 grains.......". The Capt pulled out one of the ammo cases from his trunk & read the label........"SS109.....62 grains..."

He looked at me like I was a magician...........as I walked off I said to him, "let me know if you need anymore advice......" It was a priceless moment........

 

[GcH]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

oops.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Police looking for officer’s missing rifle

By Lucas Sullivan | Monday, February 15, 2010, 11:08 AM

DAYTON - Dayton police are looking for an officer-issued rifle missing that might have fallen off the roof of an officer’s car Sunday, Feb. 14, police said.

Officers were called to the 2700 block of Wayne Avenue about 11:20 p.m. Sunday to investigate the missing rifle after the officer coming on duty at 4 p.m. noticed it was missing, the report stated.

The officer missing the gun was not named in the report and Major Mark Hess declined to release his name this morning.

“The officer recalled placing it on the roof of his cruiser as he inspected and prepared his cruiser/equipment for his tour of duty,” Hess said. “We are looking into whether he drove off with it still on the roof or if it was taken from atop the roof.”

If any wrongdoing is found, the officer will be disciplined, Hess said.

The gun is described as a Rock Rivers A15 .223 caliber rifle, the report stated. It is valued at about $800, Hess said. The gun’s serial number has been entered into a nationwide crime database, Hess said.

If anyone knows the gun’s whereabouts, you are urged to call 333-COPS.</div></div>

 

[flyboy]

Re: Cops and guns......no joke

I was pulled over a few months back (i'm still not sure what for)and asked to step out of the car and back to the sholder with the officer. He asked for my drivers license and insureance. Well as taught in the CHL class, give your permit to carry first so they know up front. The officer looked at it then looked at me and asked if I had my weapon on me (standard stuff I would suspeect). "Yes Sir." I replied. The next little exchange kinda shocked me when he asked with a HOLY SHIT look on his face "Is it LOADED?" "Well, Yeah.!" I responded. "Thats kinda the point, isn't it?" Now he looking at me as if I have someting writen real small down around were a holsterd pistol would be and askes were it is. I point while keeping my hand probably a foot away from my body to the location. He's looking now. Looking real hard to find it. "It's where?" he ask again. I pointed again. "I don't see it!" he proclames." "Good, Thats also kinda the point, right" I ask. I was given the impression that he was suprised that he couldn't see it like it would stick out real back or something.

Anyway, he was cool and let me go without telling me really why I was pulled over with doesn't bother me. Just kinda funny how he acted reminded me of Chris Matthews during the NH teaparty thing.


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