Reminds me of out of unhealthily overweight / deconditioned people building ultra light rifles claiming “ounces equals pounds and pounds equals pain.”
-Stan
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Coup De Grâce, New Action from American Rifle Company, $899 WOW!
- Thread starter karagias
- Start date
-Stan
Perpendicular/90 deg. = bad idea.. The pic. I posted doesn’t do justice to what I was envisioning.. The depth and spacing of dimples can be infinitely adjusted just like fluting, down to a point where the angle of interaction (so to speak) becomes a none-issue. I think a good starting point, as far as depth, would be the lower 1/3 of a ~3 or 4mm dia. sphere(?). But what the hell do I know, I haven’t been employed as an engineer since 2006..
My opinion: having flutes as an offering would sell more actions. I think there’s a bling factor that goes along with building a precision rifle.
When I’m at my local range (with people of all skill levels) the rifles with a little more “bling” get asked about more than a standard rifle. Barrel and action fluting turns more heads than non fluted components. I think the colored accents will also turn some heads and gain more interest from guys that may want to look into their first custom rifle.
I think it’s the same reason the vortex razors are that purple-ish color. It turns heads and gets asked about by the guys that are newer to shooting and at a match you know what it is from a mile away.
When I’m at my local range (with people of all skill levels) the rifles with a little more “bling” get asked about more than a standard rifle. Barrel and action fluting turns more heads than non fluted components. I think the colored accents will also turn some heads and gain more interest from guys that may want to look into their first custom rifle.
I think it’s the same reason the vortex razors are that purple-ish color. It turns heads and gets asked about by the guys that are newer to shooting and at a match you know what it is from a mile away.
I was expecting a Greek name, like he did with the Xylo.. Like maybe Madusa or Hydra. Since the oldest bronze artifacts of the Hydra had six heads, sorta relates to CDG having six bolt faces and maybe more to come (sorta compares to the myth: cut off one of the heads and two grows back).. At least that’s my 2 cents worth..
I also think fluting would sell more actions.
Picture someone that is looking to purchase their first custom action they have narrowed it down to 2, fluting may be that little difference that sways them into making the purchase.
Many of the buyers will not have the chance to handle both the actions to directly compare, so it boils down to features vs performance or feel.
If you were to blindfold the average person that buys the actions, would they be able to tell you which is which?
Picture someone that is looking to purchase their first custom action they have narrowed it down to 2, fluting may be that little difference that sways them into making the purchase.
Many of the buyers will not have the chance to handle both the actions to directly compare, so it boils down to features vs performance or feel.
If you were to blindfold the average person that buys the actions, would they be able to tell you which is which?
A simple Google search of fluted barrels reveals there are lots of options when it comes to flutes. I have faith that Ted and the team will be able to come up with something both functional and asthetically pleasing and if Not scrap the whole flute idea.
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Thread Timing
The Coup De Grâce will have a timed barrel thread. However, that does not mean that pre-fit barrels will time to within a degree or two. We cut a 1.0625-20 UN 2B female thread into the receivers. Accordingly we also specify a 1.0625-20 UN 2A male thread for the barrel. For those of you that are unfamiliar with thread specifications, the 2A and 2B denote the tolerance class of the thread, A for male and B for the female. Class 1 has the loosest tolerance, class 3 has the tightest, and class 2, you guessed it, is somewhere in between and is the most commonly used class in industrial and commercial applications.
The tolerance applies to the pitch diameter of each thread, which is the average of the major and minor diameters of the thread form when drawing with sharp roots and crests. Actual threads have truncated roots and crests for durability. For the specified barrel thread, the pitch diameters male and female threads can be as much as 0.0105 inches apart above the nominal clearance between the two. And since these are v-threads with a 60° included angle, the axial movement necessary to move the threads through the tolerance and into contact with one another is just the 0.0105" max tolerance x tangent of 30° = 0.006 inches. Given that there are 20 threads per inch, the barrel will move axially by 0.050" for every revolution, we can see now that an axial move of 0.006" requires .006/.050 = .12 revolutions = about 43 degrees. I'll bet that's more than most of you thought it would be. I know it surprised me the first time I looked into this.
So yes, we time the threads. But the thread mill used to cut the thread is constantly wearing out and therefore the pitch diameter of the thread within the receiver will be somewhere between the high and low limits of the tolerance which introduces considerable variability in the final position of the barrel's orientation with respect to the receiver. We try to hold the pitch diameter closer to the high limit simply because we want barrels to screw on every time, but we use most of the tolerance. Likewise, I think the barrel should be held closer to the low limit for the same reason. Clearance is good, especially in threads. There is no accuracy advantage to running tight threads. The 60° thread angle of both loose threads and tight threads both centralize the male within the female extremely well, and so long as the barrel is properly torqued, at least 100 lb-ft, the barrel will not move with respect to the receiver. I know, lots of people running lower torques, but I don't like do so.
I hope that helps.
Ted
The Coup De Grâce will have a timed barrel thread. However, that does not mean that pre-fit barrels will time to within a degree or two. We cut a 1.0625-20 UN 2B female thread into the receivers. Accordingly we also specify a 1.0625-20 UN 2A male thread for the barrel. For those of you that are unfamiliar with thread specifications, the 2A and 2B denote the tolerance class of the thread, A for male and B for the female. Class 1 has the loosest tolerance, class 3 has the tightest, and class 2, you guessed it, is somewhere in between and is the most commonly used class in industrial and commercial applications.
The tolerance applies to the pitch diameter of each thread, which is the average of the major and minor diameters of the thread form when drawing with sharp roots and crests. Actual threads have truncated roots and crests for durability. For the specified barrel thread, the pitch diameters male and female threads can be as much as 0.0105 inches apart above the nominal clearance between the two. And since these are v-threads with a 60° included angle, the axial movement necessary to move the threads through the tolerance and into contact with one another is just the 0.0105" max tolerance x tangent of 30° = 0.006 inches. Given that there are 20 threads per inch, the barrel will move axially by 0.050" for every revolution, we can see now that an axial move of 0.006" requires .006/.050 = .12 revolutions = about 43 degrees. I'll bet that's more than most of you thought it would be. I know it surprised me the first time I looked into this.
So yes, we time the threads. But the thread mill used to cut the thread is constantly wearing out and therefore the pitch diameter of the thread within the receiver will be somewhere between the high and low limits of the tolerance which introduces considerable variability in the final position of the barrel's orientation with respect to the receiver. We try to hold the pitch diameter closer to the high limit simply because we want barrels to screw on every time, but we use most of the tolerance. Likewise, I think the barrel should be held closer to the low limit for the same reason. Clearance is good, especially in threads. There is no accuracy advantage to running tight threads. The 60° thread angle of both loose threads and tight threads both centralize the male within the female extremely well, and so long as the barrel is properly torqued, at least 100 lb-ft, the barrel will not move with respect to the receiver. I know, lots of people running lower torques, but I don't like do so.
I hope that helps.
Ted
Shot Show
I'm flying to Shot Show as I type this. For those of you at the show, there will be a Coup De Grâce action branded Vudoo Gunworks, model Morphius in the Vudoo both just as soon as I can get it there, probably around noon today.
I promised Paul and Jill, owners of Vudoo, that I would deliver an action to them for the Show. Timing is a little weird, I know, because I was hoping to announce the action months ago but a promise is a promise and it wasn't until last night that I finally felt an action that I was satisfied with.
So come by and have a look if you're at Shot.
Ted
I'm flying to Shot Show as I type this. For those of you at the show, there will be a Coup De Grâce action branded Vudoo Gunworks, model Morphius in the Vudoo both just as soon as I can get it there, probably around noon today.
I promised Paul and Jill, owners of Vudoo, that I would deliver an action to them for the Show. Timing is a little weird, I know, because I was hoping to announce the action months ago but a promise is a promise and it wasn't until last night that I finally felt an action that I was satisfied with.
So come by and have a look if you're at Shot.
Ted
haha this is always the problem when 2 engineers get in a room.... theres always a better wayPerpendicular/90 deg. = bad idea.. The pic. I posted doesn’t do justice to what I was envisioning.. The depth and spacing of dimples can be infinitely adjusted just like fluting, down to a point where the angle of interaction (so to speak) becomes a none-issue. I think a good starting point, as far as depth, would be the lower 1/3 of a ~3 or 4mm dia. sphere(?). But what the hell do I know, I haven’t been employed as an engineer since 2006..
Gotta send a pic from the booth when you get there.
I would say make the fluted bolt an option for this action as well as the lighter weight hunting action you mentioned earlier. If all other parts interchange and just the bolt body is fluted, would it be that hard to do both?
I hadn't thought about the weight of the actual bolt being hard on the bolt stop before. That's a good engineering reason to go lighter.
I hadn't thought about the weight of the actual bolt being hard on the bolt stop before. That's a good engineering reason to go lighter.
With the adjustable trigger hanger we are able to have zero cock on close for an absolutely smooth bolt cycle. You can adjust the trigger to where you have some cock on close if you choose to do so.
Sweet, what’s pin travel as it comes. If I understand correctly as one removes cock on close you will be removing pin fall as well?
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It’s fucking awesome. Bolt lift is light like a 90°. Bolt close feels like my gen2 nucleus. Forward and aft feels like it too. Bolt knob feels great also, better than the Nuke.
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Was this in the bolt handle pivot mode or converted to the non-pivot conventional cam extract mode?
Pivot but not noticeable unless you did it on purpose.
Do you have any pocket sand?
Who am I kidding, everyone does. Toss some pocket sand in there and give us a video
Who am I kidding, everyone does. Toss some pocket sand in there and give us a video
What about dimples as opposed to flutes like the old kac-ball milled barrels? just enough that it would help open an icy action, only where needed.
That is true. We designed the action with enough pin fall without the need of any additional cock on close.
I understand bolt lift concerns, but among my 90° actions I find a fair bit of difference in the closing (and cock on close). Got any Defiance experience? My Ruckus snaps shut, but my Bighorn TL3 even with a new/timed FP assembly shows some heaviness (cock on close). Before I throw it in the trash and buy another Defiance I’m curious about this, but didn’t like the Gen 1 Nuke.
There is a very noticeable difference between the Gen1 Nuke & the Gen 1.2/2. I never owned the Gen 1 Nuke. I've got 1500 rounds on a Gen 1.2 SA Nuke in 6.5 C with a TT Primary set about 1.7lb. The only change I made was to put a 19# striker spring in it. Never had a jam or light strike. Never bound it, smooth as glass. Really not trying to exaggerate, the 1.2 is smooth. I hear comments from the peanut gallery behind me when shooting matches & multiple times the comments have been damn that action looks smooth.
So I took Frank & Marks class in PA this past October and the guy from the range who was taking care of steel etc (excellent job he did) had a Gen 1 that started life as a John Hancock with the 16# spring still in it. Said he had well north of 5000 rounds.
I offered him to try a few rounds from mine. His response was holly shit, it doesn't feel like the same action. I ran his bolt and completely agree. Yuge difference. To be fair He said he's never run a newer version & loved his Nuke. You don't know what you haven't experienced. Likewise I would not be happy with the Gen 1 now. The difference between them was so noticeable, there was a lot of head scratching. We tried putting his bolt in mine & vise versa....nope! Bolt throw is different so bolt would only go in 2/3rds or so. He was considering a Big Horn or Defiance before running my Nuke. Pretty sure he changed his mind.
I've run Gen 1.2, Archimedes, & Mausingfield M7 in matches. Of the 3, the Archimedes ever so slightly gets the edge IMO. It's just a touch faster then the Nuke. The only down side is stripping the bolt on the Archimedes & Ted solved that with this new CDG.
Just built a 223 on a Gen 2 Nuke (I swapped to the 19# spring) and it feels excellent. First rounds go down range this weekend. Going to run that in some matches this year (Tac class).
Edit: To clarify a little for those that haven't followed the evolution closely.
Gen1 Nuke was 72 degree lift, Gen 1.1, 1.2, & 2 are 80 degree lift. Starting with Gen 1.1 bayonet style striker assemblies & slight overcock on opening to prevent cocking cam from dropping at hand off to trigger sear = no cock on close. Gen 1.1 & 1.2 have the turn style bolt stop, Gen 2 is the lever on the right side. Gen 1.2 & Gen 2 have more rear support for the bolt to reduce the possibility of binding. I think this is all accurate.
Ted has also made improvements to the Gen 2 Nuke that He's done quietly. He doesn't make a big stink about it or jack the price for each little change. The changes/evolution on these has served 2 purposes. 1. Is production efficiency less parts across actions. 2. Is performance. There is not a single change I've seen in this evolution that has not been an improvement to performance. The Gen 2 originally had a keyed pick rail + recoil lug. The Gen 2 I just built now has an integral recoil lug.
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With the adjustable trigger hanger you will be able easily and precisely tune this action to have zero cock on close. This will give you a super smooth bolt close. This was a point of emphasis with the design of this action. Through our experience with our other actions we found that the variations in sear position of trigger manufacture designs made it nearly impossible have a one size fits all cocking piece. Like all manufactured parts there is acceptable tolerances that are held, but when you have so many components combined in an assembly you have a stack up of these deviations and if they all go in the wrong direction that is when things can go awry. Now toss in multiple manufactures and you can see how this becomes challenging. This designs solves that problem with a turn of a screw you can have the perfectly timed action, zero cock on close and nearly zero reduction in pin fall. I am confident if you give this action a try you will be very happy with the bolt cycle.
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