Cryo treatment of 91/30

[thunderspirit]

I am considering the purchase of a mosin nagant 91/30 as a project rifle. I am going to modify it by installing a bullpup body and I would like to upgrade the barrel. I apologize if this offends the purist but if it makes you feel better I am going to hold onto all of the stock parts and include them if I sell the gun. I want to use this rifle to do target shooting at 800 - 1000 yards and I understand that it is best to upgrade to a hardened barrel to do this. The hardened barrels available right now are quite expensive and I have looked into this company that offers cryogenic treatment services wondering if it would be the next best thing to a barrel upgrade. http://www.nitrofreeze.com/guns.html I would appreciate any input as I do not want to destroy my rifle. Also I would like to know if I should have any other internal parts cryo treated? thanks

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

are you crazy?...

1: it's a mosin...

2: it's a MOSIN

3: ALL barrels are hardened...

4: do you even know where to get a "bullpup body" for said mosin...

5: have you ever even shot a rifle?

 

[thunderspirit]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

HMM not exactly the type of reply I expected. So to be specific, no this project does not represent my current state of sanity. Yes it is a mosin, cheap due to 17 million being manufactured, fun and an excellent rifle. And yes all barrels are hardened but I posted the link in hopes that someone with knowledge about cryotreatment of a mosin nagant 91/30 barrel. As quoted from the link "If you cryo treat your gun barrel, you will see several immediate results. Cryogenic barrel treatment utilizes liquid nitrogen to bring the temperature of your gun barrel down to -300°F. The gun is then kept at this level for 24 hours, which relieves the residual stresses. When fired, a gun barrel heats up and distorts or warps everytime you pull the trigger. This results in lost accuracy. Once a gun barrel is cryogenically treated, you will see improved shot groupings. This improvement will last the life of the gun as cryogenic treatment is a one time permanent process." Benelli does it to their shotguns, and this treatment takes place after the barrels have already been forged and heat treated. Onto the next point. CBRPS makes a mosin bullpup body. I am waiting for the cossack body to be made publicly available. And for the last question yes I shoot rifles all the time with my PS3 so BooYah. Seriously though why do you think I would bother asking if I had never shot a gun? That is just senseless.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

The 91/30 barrel is a bit thin even as a "sporter" contour, I found mine shot just a bit better cut down to 22" and re-crowned.

I don't think that cryo would be worth the $$ on this barrel, but hey, a before/after experiment would be interesting.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

I'm familiar w/ cryo treatment... my question is why would you want to cryo a shot out Mosin barrel?

and I saw your link to the stock/chassis... it's 3 times the price of the Mosin...

so we're at $100 for a Mosin, $300+ for the chassis, whatever you spend on Cryo... call it $500...

you can get a Rem SPS varmint for that, or a Savage Varmint, and they'll both still out shoot that hacked together Mosin.

 

[thunderspirit]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

wannashootit, thanks I appreciate your input maybe I will keep my eyes open for an after market barrel setup.

Force Multiplier: If I get one it will be throughly inspected beforehand for pitting and abuse, however it seems that it may not be worth the trouble at this point so I will probably wind up purchasing a uk59 barrel . I have access to a large cache of guns that can handle any of my shooting needs but the fun behind the mosin is going to be the build. If I can keep the entire cost under $700 then its totally worth it for me. thanks for the input.

 

[Just Jim]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

Okay, I suppose all experimentation enriches the mind, and I know I'm being a horses' ass here, but I rather suspect all of these wartime Mosins have seen quite enough cold already.

Why not keep it in military trim and see how well you can shoot it as issued? Experiment with the period methods of bedding modification and trigger improvement, and, if you like, button on one of the repro scopes.

I for one, think old steel such as the Mosin has lessons to teach if we will only resist the urge to cheat with all the modern shortcuts. But it's your rifle and your decision, so have fun.

Cheers... Jim

 

[Clark]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

I have worked on Mosin Nagants for 10 years.

I have some opinions:
1) Either bend the sear spring or buy a Timney trigger. All the other mods AND the Hubber trigger do not work. Once you understand it, you will realize how ineffective the techniques in most of those youtube videos are.
2) Each Mosin Nagant receiver clocks differently. That is the clocking of the rotational orientation of the extractor relief cut vs the chamber-shoulder-threads.
3) I like the bolt handles TIG welded.
4) I have tried many ways of making scope mounts, and I now like the store bought ATI [who mostly make junk, but the MN scope mount alone is good] with an extra hole drilled into it and an extra hole drilled and tapped into the receiver.

I am open to:
Finding a good boat tailed hunting bullet for this rifle.

My video on getting the Mosin Nagant barrel off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOjYro4w0Bc
My video on Mosin Nagant trigger mods:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPn8IdNJ_SE
My video on Mosin Nagant scope mounts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEyS9Q_u10I

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

FWIW, the UK59 barrels are a TON of smithing work...including custom collars and turning the entire barrel. There's literally no shoulder to headspace the barrel, do a search here and on Gun and Game.

I may someday re-barrel a Mosin- BUT, if you analyze the costs/benefits, you may come to the same conclusion I did- which is to get a match-grade .308 blank and have it chambered for the 7.62 x 54R. It will shoot the same 7.62 Russian cartridge, just use a .308 instead of a .311 expander.

While some have gotten decent results from the UK-59 barrel, remember it's a machine gun, not a match barrel.

 

[thunderspirit]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Just Jim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, I suppose all experimentation enriches the mind, and I know I'm being a horses' ass here, but I rather suspect all of these wartime Mosins have seen quite enough cold already.

Why not keep it in military trim and see how well you can shoot it as issued? Experiment with the period methods of bedding modification and trigger improvement, and, if you like, button on one of the repro scopes.

I for one, think old steel such as the Mosin has lessons to teach if we will only resist the urge to cheat with all the modern shortcuts. But it's your rifle and your decision, so have fun.

Cheers... Jim </div></div>

Good call Jim. I definitely plan on keeping the rifle for about 2 or 3 months before doing anything to it just so I can learn the ins and outs. This will also allow me to record data on accuracy at specific yardage. My local gunshop carries the timmney trigger which I plan to purchase but I don't think I want to maul the wooden mosin stock so I may have to wait until I order the aftermarket stock to report results on that. Ill be sure to keep this project posted.

 

[thunderspirit]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I have worked on Mosin Nagants for 10 years.

I have some opinions:
1) Either bend the sear spring or buy a Timney trigger. All the other mods AND the Hubber trigger do not work. Once you understand it, you will realize how ineffective the techniques in most of those youtube videos are.
2) Each Mosin Nagant receiver clocks differently. That is the clocking of the rotational orientation of the extractor relief cut vs the chamber-shoulder-threads.
3) I like the bolt handles TIG welded.
4) I have tried many ways of making scope mounts, and I now like the store bought ATI [who mostly make junk, but the MN scope mount alone is good] with an extra hole drilled into it and an extra hole drilled and tapped into the receiver.

I am open to:
Finding a good boat tailed hunting bullet for this rifle.

My video on getting the Mosin Nagant barrel off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOjYro4w0Bc
My video on Mosin Nagant trigger mods:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPn8IdNJ_SE
My video on Mosin Nagant scope mounts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEyS9Q_u10I </div></div>
Wow clark you have truly devoted some time into research this fire arm ! Thanks for your input if I have any questions I will be sure to see if you have a solution. thanks

 

[kortik]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

If you plan to use freshly made barrel, and re-barrel MN action with it, cryo may be of some value, although I have no personal experience with cryo.

If you plan to use original MN barrel or UL-59 barrel, cryo is completely useless, cause any residual stress in these old barrels, or any other MN metal parts, is already "removed" by natural aging, so doing cryo on any MN parts is pointless.

 

[RobertB]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

Ive got 2 old mausers i like and may someday do something to em but for shooting that yardage you would probably come out much cheaper and much more accurate with either a stock savage or Remington. Thag goes for rifle ammo and parts. I may be wrong but its the route i been going for the last 10 rifles. Ive been sastified so far.

 

[Clark]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

I have 3 of those VZ59 barrels on the shelf.

I had 4, but of a dozen receivers, only one would clock.

All 4 of those reworked VZ59 barrels clocked the same.
But all 12 of my MN receivers clocked differently.
Can you see why they did you no favors by cutting an MN extractor relief?


It can be overcome, but... do you want to put your reamer in a chamber with a Chrome bore?
Or do you want to fill their extractor relief cut on the breech with weld?
Are you willing to accept a breech face with less that 180 degrees of rim support?

I made some drawings for how to do the VZ59 barrel.

It is MUCH harder than just buying a 45 barrel blank, cutting threads, cut chamber, and cut extractor relief. I have a MN 45/70. I have done that. The VZ59 problem is fixing someone's screw ups.

One had a gas hole drilled in it, and I drilled and tapped and filled the hole.

 

[thunderspirit]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

I noticed some M39 barrels on ebay earlier, would these be a viable option for a barrel upgrade? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Finnish-M39-Mosi...=item3cc7722d7e

Seems like there is alot of room for human error with some of the gun smithing involved with a barrel upgrade so if it comes down to it I may have to just live with the stock barrel.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

I would. Actually I do.

The low cost of the M-N makes it tempting, but that mainly translates down to a functional service rifle and the kind of performance that entails.

Investing time, effort, and treasure into that with high expectations is simply an exercise in pig's-ear-to-silk-purse conversion; which seldom works as intended.

If you want an inexpensive, cheap to feed service type rifle, the M-N does very nicely.

But look for something more cooperative to base a build on.

Most of us who have upgraded rifles find the Savage/Stevens action very cooperative, and going with something cheaper and less cooperative will likely cost more in the end, and provide less bang for the buck.

Cryo? Seen it done with friends' rifles. Never saw anything visibly helpful come out of it. Do it of you want, but don't expect day/night consequences.

Accuracy costs. How much would you like to spend?

Greg

 

[Clark]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

The MN action is a better action than the Rem700.
But the Rem700 has more aftermarket gear, is easier to re barrel, is cheaper to manufacture, and is much more popular.

The MN action is a better action than the 99Sav action.
The 99 action has less aftermarket gear, is harder to re barrel, and is more expensive to manufacture.

so..
1) The MN action may be great, but it takes actual gunsmithing to rebarrel. Like a 1903 Springfield.
2) There is nothing inherently less accurate about a rimmed cartridge, but you will be alone.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1270189782/lapua-brass-762x54mm-rimmed-russian-762x53mm-rimmed
Unless you are Finland, where they are inventive with the MN action.
3) The converted VZ59 barrels suck. There are a few guys on the internet that got tiny groups at long range. They got lucky. This cheap rebarrel job and its problems are a red herring in understanding the MN action.

What am I doing?
I am still buying and re barreling Rem700, Sav110, 1903 Springfield, Win M70 pre 64, 98 Mauser, Sav 99, Howa, and Mosin Nagant actions.
De Haas said to not work on MN actions because of the trigger and safety. With the Timney now available, I guess things are changing.

Here is a drawing I made on how to relieve 3/8" tubing pillars in the MN stock, for Timney trigger clearance.

Here is a pic I made showing how to adjust the Timney trigger.

What does it all mean?
If you are starting out, stick to Rem700, 98 Mauser, or Sav110 actions, they take less gunsmithing.

If you have a 91/30 with a rotten barrel, maybe you should leave it alone, until you have rebarreled one of the easy actions.

 

[Daniel Hall]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

Cryo may have some benefit. I have not followed current cost. It Needs to be performed with proper ramping procedures, not just get a -300 chill. Keep in mind that treating a barrel will not improve uniformity or bore surface issues. I would shoot the rifle and see if you get acceptable results before spending money on Cryo. A friend that is one of the best barrel makers uses double stress relieved steel. He cuts it into blank and then they get the Cryo treatment. He does not believe in trying to resurrect a barrel by treating it. I feel the same way.

 

[Daniel Hall]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

On the comment "are you crazy?" : I just spent 18 hours of driving to get to and from Camp Perry. We only fired 10 shots at 300 and 10 shots a 600 yards for record. I have been asking myself, am I crazy or just enthusiastic? The answer is probably a combination of both.

 

[rusty815]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

Personally I don't see the benefit of trying to upgrade a Mosin, you'll be spending hundreds of dollars only to make it shoot as good as a factory rifle you could have bought for cheaper, if you want something that is upgradable, get a Stevens 200, older Savage 10/110 or Remington SPS and go on from there.

BTW, I have a Mosin and do not think it's a better action than a Remington or Savage, its tolerances are too loose.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

I cryo'd my Rem700 before I even shot it, the benefits of cryo outweigh anything, except the cost- make sure you are doing it on a NICE barrel if you do it.

 

[RoosterShooter]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

All I can say is ... "Lipstick on a pig!"

Seriously ... your money would be better spent in buying a Remington 700 SPS and throwing away the $20 stock barrel for a Shilen or Shaw, at the least.

 

[rideHPD]

Re: Cryo treatment of 91/30

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you plan to use freshly made barrel, and re-barrel MN action with it, cryo may be of some value, although I have no personal experience with cryo.

If you plan to use original MN barrel or UL-59 barrel, cryo is completely useless, cause any residual stress in these old barrels, or any other MN metal parts, is already "removed" by natural aging, so doing cryo on any MN parts is pointless.
</div></div>

This is the best thing anyone's said, it will do nothing if the barrel wasn't properly heat treated from the start. Cryo treatment is done as something to improve something that already is nearly perfect, and a mosin barrel is not that. Not including whatever imperfections in the rifling, deviations in the action/barrel from being square, oversize headspace chamber, etc., the microstructure of the steel has already started to compromise the barrel, and the condition of the steel to begin with didn't help it. Cryo was developed to solve problems that arose while trying to treat parts for space systems that I'd rather not begin to discuss. To do that to a mosin barrel would be to try to put a very expensive K&N air filter in a pinto. You're just not doing yourself any favors, even for the novelty.