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Curtis Axiom with Masterpiece Arms barrel - headspace probem

dfiant

Private
Minuteman
May 25, 2020
20
2
I am building my first custom rifle. I purchased a Curtis Custom Axiom and a Masterpiece Arms Barrel (6.5 PRC).

As I am test fitting, I hand tightened the barrel on to the action. I inserted PTG GO Guage and the bolt closed just fine. I then inserted the no-go gauge, the bolt still closed. I know there is probably some crush factor or probably some other things going on when I torque down the barrel which will tighten the tolerance. But should I be worried yet? I didn't want to torque it all down without asking

Second thought, I've seen PRC can have different headspaces depending on factory vs hand loads. It wasn't an option with either the MPA barrel when ordering, could the problem be the barrel is the .188 free bore abut the gauges are designed for the smaller freebore, how would I know?
 
Aren’t you suppose to torque this down to spec, first? Just a few thou will give you the difference you are seeing. If the barrel is meant to be torqued on and you are only going hand tight, you are going to see more headspace.

Torque to spec, then check.
 
Like lunchbox27 said, torque to spec. FYI you might wanna use some anti seize thread lubricant on final assembly. I just had bad problems removing a .308 barrel. I ended up having to pay to get it removed.
 
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Thank you both. I thought that maybe the case. I just tried a piece of scotch tape on the no go and it was a no go...I think scotch tape is about .0025 thick.

I need to order a better barrel vice, mine is slipping after about 20 ft.lbs of torque.

FYI I am using anti-seize for stainless.
 
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Thank you both. I thought that maybe the case. I just tried a piece of scotch tape on the no go and it was a no go...I think scotch tape is about .0025 thick.

I need to order a better barrel vice, mine is slipping after about 20 ft.lbs of torque.

FYI I am using anti-seize for stainless.
You’re wise beyond your years my friend. I wish I hadn’t learned that lesson the hard way.
 
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Thank you both. I thought that maybe the case. I just tried a piece of scotch tape on the no go and it was a no go...I think scotch tape is about .0025 thick.

I need to order a better barrel vice, mine is slipping after about 20 ft.lbs of torque.

FYI I am using anti-seize for stainless.
21st century makes a good vice for cheap, I just did a build using one with out any issues (80ft/lb) with no slip
 
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The freebore has nothing to do with headspace. The same gauges are used for factory and handloads.
If the barrel shoulder and action face are clean, square, and free of burs, headspace will tighten very, very little going from hand tight to fully torqued. If there is dirt or burrs left from machining, then it will tighten up more.
Regardless, it sounds like it's on the loose end of spec. If you handload for the rifle, pay close attention to your shoulder bump during resizing.
 
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The freebore has nothing to do with headspace. The same gauges are used for factory and handloads.
If the barrel shoulder and action face are clean, square, and free of burs, headspace will tighten very, very little going from hand tight to fully torqued. If there is dirt or burrs left from machining, then it will tighten up more.
Regardless, it sounds like it's on the loose end of spec. If you handload for the rifle, pay close attention to your shoulder bump during resizing.

ok, thinking about the free bore, that totally makes sense.

As I thought more about this last night, I started to doubt there will be much if any change in the headspace once the shoulder engages the action during hand tightening. Is being on the loose side of spec a barrel issue or an action issue? I’m guessing it could be either or a combination. How do I figure out where the issue is occurring?

Will this affect accuracy? I’m not reloading yet probably won’t for a while.

My concern is I bought a custom action from a very popular action manufacturer and a barrel from the manufacturer whose website claims they have made more barrels for Curtis Actions than anyone.

I had a bit of issue with the Curtis Action installing the scope rail, one screw was ever so slightly not lined up. I also noticed after lubricating the action and working the bolt (before I got the barrel) that the rub marks of the lugs engaging the action didn’t appear to be even for one of the three lug engagements. I hope these issues are not indicative of some quality issue with a $1000 action.
 
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ok, thinking about the free bore, that totally makes sense.

As I thought more about this last night, I started to doubt there will be much if any change in the headspace once the shoulder engages the action during hand tightening. Is being on the loose side of spec a barrel issue or an action issue? I’m guessing it could be either or a combination. How do I figure out where the issue is occurring?

Will this affect accuracy? I’m not reloading yet probably won’t for a while.

My concern is I bought a custom action from a very popular action manufacturer and a barrel from the manufacture whose website claims they have made more barrels for Curtis Actions than anyone.

I had a bit of issue with the Curtis Action installing the scope rail, one screw was ever so slightly not lined up. I hope these issues are not indicative of some quality issue with a $1000 action. I also hate to think it is a problem with an almost $600 barrel as well.
You would need depth mics and some other precision measuring tools to pinpoint the problem. It could be either one or a combination of both.
I wouldn't make a final decision until it's torqued. It just takes a tiny bit of cerakote or anything else to cause an issue while hand tightening.
If it's right on the edge of a no-go closing, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Factory ammo should function fine and you need to adjust your dies to the brass length while resizing anyway. Accuracy shouldn't be effected.
If it's grossly out and still closes with tape on the gauge, then I would definitely address it.
 
I’m not a Smitty but the barrel is usually fit to the action. Did the smith have your action in hand, did he just go from the advertised specs, or is it a prefit. Without actually measuring your action it would be easy to run into what’s known as tolerance stacking. If the smith had your action in hand then it’s on him. If it’s a prefit send it back. If you had it made without sending him the action you might can have a little thickness shaved off your recoil lug. If it was mine I would have sent the action back when I discovered the hole for the rail out of alignment. The misalignment might be in other areas of that action. Sorry to hear that their QA let one get by. You might have gotten a $1k 💩. If you don’t want it I’ll give you a little money for it. Good luck and hang in there all is not lost
 
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Thank you both. I thought that maybe the case. I just tried a piece of scotch tape on the no go and it was a no go...I think scotch tape is about .0025 thick.

I need to order a better barrel vice, mine is slipping after about 20 ft.lbs of torque.

FYI I am using anti-seize for stainless.

I would recommend the OTM Viper Barrel Vise. I just used it the other day and had zero marks on my stainless steel barrel.

Install w/ Viper Barrel Vise around 4:15
 
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If it's close to correct you shouldn't have any issues with accuracy, and if it's within 2 thousandths of an inch like you described you'll be fine. The only concern would be to bump the shoulder of your brass less when resizing to avoid overworking it, if you reload.

In terms of accuracy, you won't see any issues. I have a Mausingfield from 10 serial numbers before they standardized the headspace, and if I screw a pre-fit barrel onto it the headspace is about 8 thousandths longer than a no-go gauge. It still shoots great (5 shot group below) and the barrel was cheap, so I've used it for the time being knowing I'll just have to size my brass back to normal if I want to use it in another barrel. My ammo won't fit in someone else's gun because the brass is too long, but it's only being shot out of my gun in the first place anyways.

shot_1584129800193.jpg
 
If it's close to correct you shouldn't have any issues with accuracy, and if it's within 2 thousandths of an inch like you described you'll be fine. The only concern would be to bump the shoulder of your brass less when resizing to avoid overworking it, if you reload.

In terms of accuracy, you won't see any issues. I have a Mausingfield from 10 serial numbers before they standardized the headspace, and if I screw a pre-fit barrel onto it the headspace is about 8 thousandths longer than a no-go gauge. It still shoots great (5 shot group below) and the barrel was cheap, so I've used it for the time being knowing I'll just have to size my brass back to normal if I want to use it in another barrel. My ammo won't fit in someone else's gun because the brass is too long, but it's only being shot out of my gun in the first place anyways.

View attachment 7347320

I could be completely uninformed here, I was under the impression that the tight tolerances of a custom action was the whole point. If that is not the case then what actually makes a custom action better or more accurate than say a production rifle?
 
I could be completely uninformed here, I was under the impression that the tight tolerances of a custom action was the whole point. If that is not the case then what actually makes a custom action better or more accurate than say a production rifle?
That is a large reason to buy a custom action nowadays, but not the only one.

ARC specifically has made a lot of changes to their actions over the years, and the Mausingfield in particular had a lot of revisions early on and even now. At serial number M5C1-TSx-00380 they created a fixed headspace that would not change in all future revisions and future actions (headspace is the same for Nucleus, Mausingfield, and Archimedes actions). Before that serial number, with my action being in the M5C1-TSR-0037x range, the headspace could vary from revision to revision and there were enough different specifications that nobody makes pre-fits for the older ones since it would serve very few customers.

I bought this action despite that because I like the other features the action provides. I like the combination of controlled round feed and inertial ejection. I really like the feel of the bolt handle/knob (the old knurled barbell). I also like how smooth it is, with DLC coating + tens of thousands of rounds combining to make it run fantastic either dry or lubed up. The action also has a reputation of performing well in dirty conditions compared to those with particularly tight raceways like a Defiance.

Nowadays headspace tolerance is much more of a big deal, but before the Impact Precision action came around it wasn't really something that anybody cared about. There are thousands of custom Defiance and Surgeon actions that have fantastically tight tolerances, but you still can't buy a pre-fit that will screw onto any Deviant or 591 action. From what I've seen the timing of the action threads is the main difference, but you'll also see some variance in headspace from action to action because that tolerance was never before considered as important as the fit between bolt and receiver. People sent their guns into the smith to get a new barrel, that was just how it was done, so it didn't matter if that dimension was perfect every time.

Impact was the first company I saw, excluding Accuracy International, that specifically controlled those tolerances and advertised it, even selling pre-fit barrels themselves. AI did it first since they were designed to have quick-change barrels, but Impact Precision seems to be the company that really kicked off the trend for all other custom actions. It makes sense thinking about it in hindsight, but before then it wasn't something anybody cared about because the smith was going to measure it anyways. Noawadays the complete interchangeability of parts is taken for granted, but it wasn't all that long ago that the idea of swapping bolts and barrels between rifles was considered ridiculous and useless.

As to what makes a custom action better, it could be the features or it could simply be the quality and looks or feel of the action. A Remington 700 action can be made to shoot just as well as a top of the line custom action. The difference is that it might lack the features, it will probably not feel as nice, and it will cost you a decent chunk of change to get the action trued up. By the time you buy the action, pay the gunsmith, and buy the scope rail you're in for enough money that most people would rather spend another couple hundred dollars to buy a custom action instead.
 
That is a large reason to buy a custom action nowadays, but not the only one.


Impact was the first company I saw, excluding Accuracy International, that specifically controlled those tolerances and advertised it, even selling pre-fit barrels themselves. AI did it first since they were designed to have quick-change barrels, but Impact Precision seems to be the company that really kicked off the trend for all other custom actions. It makes sense thinking about it in hindsight, but before then it wasn't something anybody cared about because the smith was going to measure it anyways. Nowadays the complete interchangeability of parts is taken for granted, but it wasn't all that long ago that the idea of swapping bolts and barrels between rifles was considered ridiculous and useless.

Doing it myself is the main reason I went this way. So why not a gunsmith? First of all due to the backlog at gunsmiths creating unpredictably and lernght lead tiems, secondly because I don't have a gunsmith already and finding one who will talk to you and work with you is as easy to find as a unicorn (see the first reason) and lastly it is something to do myself for fun and education.
 
Doing it myself is the main reason I went this way. So why not a gunsmith? First of all due to the backlog at gunsmiths creating unpredictably and lernght lead tiems, secondly because I don't have a gunsmith already and finding one who will talk to you and work with you is as easy to find as a unicorn (see the first reason) and lastly it is something to do myself for fun and education.
Not hard at all to find a great smith with decent wait times.
LRI and Keystone come to mind.
Or Short action and bugholes.
 
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Not hard at all to find a great smith with decent wait times.
LRI and Keystone come to mind.
Or Short action and bugholes.
Pardon my ignorance, lol. Those all seem to be online stores that offer gunsmithing services. But I kind of thought you'd want your gunsmith to be local? If I have to ship my action to them for instance does it have to be done through an FFL?
 
I run my Terminus with hand tight. When ordering my barrel if I specifed full torque, they would cut the headspace .002 less. So from hand tight vs 80 ft/lbs I am guessing that's about .002.
 
Doing it myself is the main reason I went this way. So why not a gunsmith? First of all due to the backlog at gunsmiths creating unpredictably and lernght lead tiems, secondly because I don't have a gunsmith already and finding one who will talk to you and work with you is as easy to find as a unicorn (see the first reason) and lastly it is something to do myself for fun and education.
I agree with you that it's nice to not be dependent on a single gunsmith, lead times suck, and it's enjoyable to do it yourself. I previously had a Nucleus and an Impact Precision because the consistent headspace issue was important to me for those same reasons. Now that more time has passed though I personally don't mind this action being a little off and prefer it to the Impact because of the additional features it provides. I also know that if I'm ever in a pinch I can still order a pre-fit and it's "close enough" that it'll still work fine and I just have to size my brass differently.

I also had some great experiences with gunsmiths that helped put my mind at ease about the issue of being dependent on a single smith or worrying about lead times. I placed an order with Keystone Accuracy on a Wednesday night and had a tracking number before I woke up on Friday morning. Myself and several friends have had similar experiences with Preece Precision. For me personally it's good enough to know I can at least have a barrel within the 1-2 weeks it would take to order most pre-fits anyways, with multiple smiths who can do it for me. Shipping an action directly to a gunsmith means they can also mail it directly back to you, no FFL required.
 
Pardon my ignorance, lol. Those all seem to be online stores that offer gunsmithing services. But I kind of thought you'd want your gunsmith to be local? If I have to ship my action to them for instance does it have to be done through an FFL?
If the smith has a FFL you can ship directly to them and they can return it directly to you.
 
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I run my Terminus with hand tight. When ordering my barrel if I specified full torque, they would cut the headspace .002 less. So from hand tight vs 80 ft/lbs I am guessing that's about .002.
very interesting, if I close up by .002 due to torquing I'll be exactly where it should be.

Are you talking about Terminus Zuess or Apollo? This brings up an interesting side note, when I contacted Curtis Custom I was in the market for the Vector. After discussing it with Chase that I plan on most of the time being a 6.5 CM but sometimes I would switch barrel and calibers to 6.5 PRC. He recommended I go with the Axiom which cost me less. It was after joining this forum that I read that Terminus was a split from Curtis and the owner of Terminus designed the Zeus/Vector. Now I wonder if Curtis pays a royalty or something which might be why he steered me away from the Vector.
 
Got my Viper Barrel Vice today. Tightened the action to 90 ft/lbs and problem fixed. The no go gauge just barely stops bolt from closing. So thanks to those who said don’t worry and that the tolerance would tighten up.

Only negative I have now is the Masterpeice Arms Barrel... First off bad communication and they doubled their original outside lead time. Secondly, they installed a big (almost 1” x 4”) “MPA barrel“ sticker on the barrel that I just spent 1/2 hour removing. Put a dang sticker in the box...I’d put it with all my other stickers on my cooler. Third, I ordered a Sendero profile barrel contour, it doesn’t fit in my McMillen Stock cut for (and my rem 700 was just removed) a Sendero profile. The last thing was kind of neat but poor execution.They installed a stick-on thermometer on the barrel, which is a neat idea. However, they installed it exactly where the barrel vice had to clamp down and it crushed the thermometer, which I then had to clean off the barrel.
 
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