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Cutting Edge 22 ELR ammo

grauhanen

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For all the discussion on how good reloaded .22LR ammo may be, when will some targets be posted to show the results?
 
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grauhanen

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I have plenty. The cutting edge bullets aren’t out. I’d assume you won’t see targets from those people until they get bullet🤷🏻‍♂️
Indeed, the Cutting Edge bullets won't be available until some time in February (if then).

Geno, have you posted reloaded ammo target results? Where can the best reloaded .22LR ammo target results be seen?
 

Geno C.

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    I’ve only posted one group I believe. My testing has been geared towards figuring out what is possible as far as loads and stability. My project is self funded and. I don’t see value in chasing down a the tightest group possible at this point. However, if you of someone else wants to sponsor me, I’d be more than happy to do just that.
     

    Mike Casselton

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    I like Harrell’s compact press.

    I'd 2nd the little Harrell's compact press.
    It's built for PPC/BR sized cases.

    20200812_140507.jpg
     

    10ring1

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    Reasonable cost is relative.

    For me to practice with my elr gun, it’s $1.60 per bullet and 150gr of powder and a .05 primer and a $2.60 case that I can reuse, say 10-15 times. It’s also a 5.5hour round trip to get to a spot that I can shoot 2800 yards.

    What in your opinion would be reasonable cost of a bullet, 2-4gr of powder and a one time use case to be able to drive 5 miles to shoot 700 yards and have the same amount of drop as the elr rifle?
    'Reasonable cost' lost all meaning over the past few months
     

    TacBlade

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    Hopefully the Mid February ship time is accurate? I’ve got 2000 on order along with the Dies. Now I’m working on a powder funnel on my mill and lathe, along with a loading block that will hold the case up with the funnel sitting on the case. This is why I bought a Sherline Mill and lathe, you never know what your going to have to make yourself.
     

    acourvil

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    Has anyone heard anything about lube for the CE copper bullets? Will it be similar to what gets used on lead, or something different? (I am assuming it will be lubed somehow).

    I hope the the CCI brass is better than what comes with MiniMags, there is a lot of size variation, and they seem to run a bit larger than competition rimfire brass. If I shoot or MiniMags in my RimX. They are very tight and some are big enough that the bolt doesn’t close.
     

    grauhanen

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    CCI .22LR standard velocity ammo isn't comparable to top tier .22LR match ammo. One of the factors that help make a particular ammo especially good is the consistency of the components, including the brass and very important priming application. Is CCI brass/priming equal to that of top level Lapua, Eley, RWS ammo? Will CCI make better brass with primer for CE than it makes for itself? The answer to both questions is no.
     

    ~JM~

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    Has anyone heard anything about lube for the CE copper bullets? Will it be similar to what gets used on lead, or something different? (I am assuming it will be lubed somehow).

    I hope the the CCI brass is better than what comes with MiniMags, there is a lot of size variation, and they seem to run a bit larger than competition rimfire brass. If I shoot or MiniMags in my RimX. They are very tight and some are big enough that the bolt doesn’t close.
    CCI Stingers have a longer case. Not sure about the Mini Mags.
     

    One Mile Up

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    ... for those interested ;)

     

    One Mile Up

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    Got an email this morning from Cutting Edge...

    Good morning,

    You are being contacted this morning because you have a current open pre-order for the CuRx 22lr 32gr bundle. We received word from our brass manufacturer that we will receive our first shipment mid-March. The demand for primed brass is at an all-time high right now but they are confident in the ship date they gave us.

    We appreciate your patience during these unprecedented times throughout the firearms industry. We are excited to get everyone their orders as soon as possible!

    For those still interested... :)
     

    Geno C.

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    Have you asked them where they are getting their brass? With that date, it’s sounding like Eley even though the pictures on their site show CCI
     

    acourvil

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    Well, Eley instead of CCI sounds like a good thing, so we can hope :)

    Also, they now have the 40gn and 50gn bullets available to pre-order.
     

    One Mile Up

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    Have you asked them where they are getting their brass? With that date, it’s sounding like Eley even though the pictures on their site show CCI

    Yes, here was their answer...
    "It is coming from CCI !"

    Also, they now have the 40gn and 50gn bullets available to pre-order.

    I saw this! Things are looking hopeful for the .22lr when it comes to loading! I would only be able to use the 32gr bullet tho as I don't have a single shot and that is what is required for the 40gr and 50gr bullets (they won't chamber from a magazine as I understand it).
     

    acourvil

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    I think it may depend on the action. In another thread, Geno has said that he was able to run the 50gn bullet that he is designing from a 17HMR mag in a 22LR RimX action and a couple of others. IIRC, he said that did not work in a Vudoo.
     
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    AManWearingAHat

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    To ask perhaps a silly question. What is the benefit of this versus one of the micro-centerfires like the .22 Hornet, K Hornet, .218 bee, or .221 Fireball.

    Those can be loaded with cast bullets with very light charges of pistol powder and it would seem to me you get significantly more consistency using CF primers versus relying on what primed rimfire cases can be found. Given the highly specialized nature of this proposed .22LR ammunition it suggest to me you would get more versatility out of a very small centerfire.

    That said, I love the engineering aspect of this project and have been following it since it popped up here. I'm just confused as to the final application and whether or not it is meant to be a profitable enterprise.
     

    TIMMYTOY

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    1st ammo and scope

    2nd is rifle (shoots 1 moa or better(functions smoothly)

    3rd practice practice practice
     

    acourvil

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    As to the question of why:

    (1) I want to be able to use my 22 for hunting small game. Where I am, that requires non-lead bullets. There is nothing on the market for 22LR non-lead ammo that is worth crap.

    (2) the prospect of doing ELR-style shooting with a 22LR sounds like a lot of fun, and the tinkering that goes along with it will be fun for a while.
     

    FromMyColdDeadHand

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    I was looking to optimize and reduce the variation in 22lr shooting. New barrel, I could understand. New chamber and new mags, super vs subsonic, and reloading ammo, and a bump in ammo costs- and we aren't talking '22lr' anymore. That's fine. But frankly for the cost and the performance, I'd rather shoot 223. Maybe 'rimfire' opens up ranges, but 50gr supersonic ammo, you are getting close to 223 anyways.
     

    lash

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    I was looking to optimize and reduce the variation in 22lr shooting. New barrel, I could understand. New chamber and new mags, super vs subsonic, and reloading ammo, and a bump in ammo costs- and we aren't talking '22lr' anymore. That's fine. But frankly for the cost and the performance, I'd rather shoot 223. Maybe 'rimfire' opens up ranges, but 50gr supersonic ammo, you are getting close to 223 anyways.
    Ah, but projects like this are exactly what drive improvements that the shooting world gets to enjoy. It may not be your bag and you don’t have to even understand the drive behind it. But without people pushing limitations and people who are driving forward, innovation never happens and improvements don’t happen.

    You are most welcome, grasshopper. 😎
     
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    grauhanen

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    Have you asked them where they are getting their brass? With that date, it’s sounding like Eley even though the pictures on their site show CCI
    In this thread on Jan. 28, in an answer to a question from you, the information from Cutting Edge was provided that the brass is indeed from CCI. Was there any reason to think that since then, not quite a month ago, CE had changed suppliers?
     

    Geno C.

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    I didn’t catch that response from earlier actually. I do know that Dan from cutting edge has been talking with Eley though and a shipment of eley brass is scheduled for next month
     

    acourvil

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    The latest update from CE:

    22LR CuRx PRE-ORDER UPDATE​

    We spoke with our brass supplier this week and unfortunately they're running a little bit behind schedule. We are now looking at a ship date the first week of April for the primed, spun brass.​

    We realize this is not what anyone wants to hear and we did not either but we are all running behind right now in the firearms industry. These are unprecedented times for ALL of us but rest assured we are working very hard around the clock to get these kits shipped. We just need your patience a little bit longer and I promise it'll be worth the wait! We are doing all we can to keep you updated. We will send another update the moment we receive tracking information from our supplier.​
     

    Rimdenter

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    The latest update from CE:

    22LR CuRx PRE-ORDER UPDATE​

    We spoke with our brass supplier this week and unfortunately they're running a little bit behind schedule. We are now looking at a ship date the first week of April for the primed, spun brass.​

    We realize this is not what anyone wants to hear and we did not either but we are all running behind right now in the firearms industry. These are unprecedented times for ALL of us but rest assured we are working very hard around the clock to get these kits shipped. We just need your patience a little bit longer and I promise it'll be worth the wait! We are doing all we can to keep you updated. We will send another update the moment we receive tracking information from our supplier.​
    Believe Me all Industries are behind .
     

    acourvil

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    It might actually ship in May. The latest update from CE says:

    I am so excited to let you all know that our brass in en route to our facility! We are scheduled to have the delivery on May 5. I want to be realistic and give ourselves time to not rush with packaging. My plan is to begin shipping all pre-orders by May 12. You will all receive tracking information once your order is picked for shipping. We will be shipping all orders in the order they were received.
     

    grauhanen

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    When crimping Cutting Edge .22LR handloads, is there is a particular range of bullet pull in pounds that is sought?
     

    acourvil

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    Got mine today. No instructions included. The brass is CCI. My crimper doesn’t seem to be doing anything, but maybe I just don’t understand how it works. For whatever reason, I can’t get it to actually crimp.

    CE published simple loading instructions, a video, and some testing info on powders previously.

    I don’t think they have shipped the heavier bullets yet. I had orders in for both and received the 32gn only.
     
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    Geno C.

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    I neck size. I don’t crimp too hard to control the tension in a crimp on solids bullets from my testing
     

    grauhanen

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    However the bullet is held in place in the casing, the goal should be to obtain as consistent as possible bullet pull. Average rimfire ammo bullet pulls range from 30 lbs to as much as 70 lbs. Match ammo is usually manufactured with a minimum bullet pull of 40 lbs, with the desired range between 45 and 50. This is important to ammo quality and consistent performance.

    I don't know if solid copper bullets would be best with similar weights or something different.

    What bullet pull weight does your neck sizing achieve?
     

    acourvil

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    I had a few minutes to work with this, here are a few observations. First I wanted to make sure that the mechanical aspects of this worked properly, so I assembled some uncharged rounds to see how it would work.

    The seater works fine. If you seat too deeply, it will flare the rim and the diameter will be to big. I think you could also seat the bullets by hand, at least with unmodified brass.

    The crimper is working, it just doesn't seem to do much with the solid bullet in place. It does a noticeable crimp with bare brass; the results are less clear with a bullet in place. Some rounds didn't seem to change much with the crimp, ac couple other did seem to be tighter. I need to play with this more to see if I can get more consistency. If not, maybe Geno can share what he is using to neck size?

    Using the CE specs, the assembled bullets will fit in the plinking chambers that I have. It will NOT fit in my match chamber; it is too long, the bullet jams hard into the lands to the point that I cannot close the bolt. If I shorten the case by ~.015, I can close the bolt (the bullet is still jammed into the lands, just not as far). I have another rifle with a match chamber that I think is slightly longer, but I don't have it here to compare at the moment. Note: the CCI brass length is right in the middle of SAAMI spec., I needed to make it shorter than SAAMI spec to allow the bolt to close for my match gun. OAL is still within SAAMI spec.

    The CCI brass seems to be longer than the brass on my Center-X, but without pulling some bullets I couldn't really verify the length. I'm sure that the lead bullets are a lot easier to jam (and remove) than the copper solids.

    I still have a lot of learning to do for this . . .
     
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    acourvil

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    Here are some results from my first attempt at loads for the 32gn CE bullets.

    The gun I am loading for is a RimX action with a Bartlein barrel, match Eachus chamber done by Keystone. As noted previously, this is a tight chamber and I cannot throw the bolt with the brass as provided because the bullet jams hard. In order to get it to work, I trimmed the brass to .588 +/- .001. At that length, the bullets still jam but allow the bolt to close without undue force.

    I started with VV3N37, loads ranging from 2.5gn to 2.8gn in .1 gn increments.

    I was not able to get velocity readings with my LabRadar, so unfortunately I lost some valuable data. I do think that the CE rounds were super sonic due to the change in sound.

    The 5 round group from the 2.5 gn load was .75 MOA, measured .38" with OnTarget (50yards).
    CE_32gn_V3N37_2.6gn.jpg

    The group for 2.6gn was 1.2 MOA, measured .61 with OnTarget.

    The brass showed pressure signs for both 2.5 and 2.6gn, with the base expanding into the unsupported area; the brass ruptured at 2.7gn. In retrospect I should have started at a lower charge (maybe the 2.1gn recommended by CE), especially since I knew I had a tight chamber and was jamming the bullets. The 2.7gn and 2.8gn loads fired fine in my JP22, which has a much looser/longer chamber, and the brass did not show pressure signs.

    Napa_5-17-21brass.jpg



    Overall, I think this shows a lot of promise, although I really wish I had gotten some velocity data. I want to use the 32gn bullet for hunting, and if I am able to consistently get .75 MOA I will be very happy with it, that would be an order of magnitude better than any commercial lead-free 22 ammo. But there is a lot more development that I need to do, and I still have a lot to learn about loading for .22LR.
     
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    Geno C.

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    Here are some results from my first attempt at loads for the 32gn CE bullets.

    The gun I am loading for is a RimX action with a Bartlein barrel, match Eachus chamber done by Keystone. As noted previously, this is a tight chamber and I cannot throw the bolt with the brass as provided because the bullet jams hard. In order to get it to work, I trimmed the brass to .588 +/- .001. At that length, the bullets still jam but allow the bolt to close without undue force.

    I started with VV3N37, loads ranging from 2.5gn to 2.8gn in .1 gn increments.

    I was not able to get velocity readings with my LabRadar, so unfortunately I lost some valuable data. I do think that the CE rounds were super sonic due to the change in sound.

    The 5 round group from the 2.5 gn load was .75 MOA, measured .38" with OnTarget (50yards).
    View attachment 7628259
    The group for 2.6gn was 1.2 MOA, measured .61 with OnTarget.

    The brass showed pressure signs for both 2.5 and 2.6gn, with the base expanding into the unsupported area; the brass ruptured at 2.7gn. In retrospect I should have started at a lower charge (maybe the 2.1gn recommended by CE), especially since I knew I had a tight chamber and was jamming the bullets. The 2.7gn and 2.8gn loads fired fine in my JP22, which has a much looser/longer chamber, and the brass did not show pressure signs.

    View attachment 7628265


    Overall, I think this shows a lot of promise, although I really wish I had gotten some velocity data. I want to use the 32gn bullet for hunting, and if I am able to consistently get .75 MOA I will be very happy with it, that would be an order of magnitude better than any commercial lead-free 22 ammo. But there is a lot more development that I need to do, and I still have a lot to learn about loading for .22LR.
    What are the bore and groove diameters of your barrel?
     

    acourvil

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    The bulge is at an area where there is no support in the RimX bolt, there is an open spot right below the tensioner. This is my first venture into rimfire loading; I'm not sure what that says about the pressure other than that it is clearly more than a round that does not show any bulge at all (and I have not seen that with commercial ammo, although I have not shot any high velocity ammo). If I remember, I will run some mini mag rounds through and see if the CCI brass with a higher velocity commercial round looks any different.
     
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