So much said on cleaning I know.......However can anyone explain to me how pulling a brush back thru my barrel can damage the crown? The brush is either nylon or copper and neither one is as hard as cold hammer forged barrels. Is it possible???
Gunsmithing Damaging the barrel crown
- Thread starter ghorsley
- Start date
Re: Damaging the barrel crown
I run a nylon brush through mine 5 times when I clean it. It takes about 2 seconds to remove the brush and start over. Plus you are not pulling dirty shit back up into your barrel. I'm no pro but running a brush in one direction seems logical to me.
I run a nylon brush through mine 5 times when I clean it. It takes about 2 seconds to remove the brush and start over. Plus you are not pulling dirty shit back up into your barrel. I'm no pro but running a brush in one direction seems logical to me.
Re: Damaging the barrel crown
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Consider that carbide tooling wears (albeit slowly) even when machining soft aluminum. </div></div>
Water and wind can erode granite.
The carbon that you remove from the bore is harder than a nylon or bronze brush.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Consider that carbide tooling wears (albeit slowly) even when machining soft aluminum. </div></div>
Water and wind can erode granite.
The carbon that you remove from the bore is harder than a nylon or bronze brush.
Re: Damaging the barrel crown
It's not so much the brush itself as it is where it attaches to the cleaning rod.
As we all know, the quality/precision of stuff we buy for guns can vary greatly. Brushes and jags come in a broad menu of flavors and styles. So does the quality.
It's easy to go cheap and rationalize it by saying, "It's just a jag/brush, who cares?"
That may be fine, but if the hole/stem of the piece is machined off center, when its attached to the cleaning rod it means there's an edge hanging off to one side. That edge can catch the delicate intersection between bore/crown and peen it slightly. Brass can dent steel. It may not happen immediately, but it can/does happen.
This is why so many advise against "jerking off" a cleaning rod. Meaning running it back and forth. If you take the time to buy good stuff most of this concern goes away. Brushes generally can be reversed so long as you go all the way through and then pull back. Jags can be "scooted" up and down the bore so long as you don't exit the crown. If you do I'd encourage you to use your free hand and carefully push the jag back into the barrel.
I personally don't subscribe to the notion that carbon residue is a contributing factor to barrel wear. If it were then barrels should be wearing out at an alarming rate from just shooting them. They don't. A brush isn't going to cause carbon to embed/score a bore anymore than a bullet does as it passes through a fouled bore. By that rational the carbon would "stack up" at the tangent of the ogive/bearing surface and act like a wet stone. It doesn't. It's not going to do it with a brush/jag either. We can verify this one step further by recovering fired bullets that are in reasonably good shape. Measure the od. It's not suddenly smaller from abrasion.
Changing direction with a brush with it inside the barrel is bad juju. The bristles are going to compress as they attempt to change direction. This could potentially harm the barrel.
Take a moment and inspect the fit between the brush/jag and the rod. If there's an edge, I'd pitch it and buy a better one that aligns properly. This edge can/will drag against the bore. It's potentially harmful.
More barrels have been ruined by poor/excessive cleaning than from neglect. Especially with the modern SS custom barrels.
Companies are now making muzzle attachments that act as a bore guide. These are great products as they go a long way towards protecting the crown from impact damage during cleaning.
Just always remember, the crown is the last part of the barrel that the bullet "sees" as it makes its journey towards destruction. Ensuring its crisp/clean only adds to the success of the whole shooting experience. Treat it with care.
Also. Excessive cleaning is just as bad as not doing it at all. A barrel will tell you when its dirty. Don't clean the thing until you see a change in performance. This can mean anything. Accuracy, pressure signs, etc. . . If its not broke, don't be hell bent on fixing it just for the sake of tinkering with your gun.
The history on this excessive cleaning stems from over half a century ago when mercury was used as a principle component in priming compounds. It was very corrosive and guns required more maintenance because of it. Heavy metals aren't used anymore in priming compounds so its not the issue that it once was. Leaving a bore fouled at the end of the day just means your not going to be shooting a half dozen foulers next time you go to the range.
If you park the gun for a long time, run a dry patch prior to shooting to push any dust/condensation/rust preventative out of the bore prior. No need to wear out your elbow.
Good luck and hope this helps.
C.
It's not so much the brush itself as it is where it attaches to the cleaning rod.
As we all know, the quality/precision of stuff we buy for guns can vary greatly. Brushes and jags come in a broad menu of flavors and styles. So does the quality.
It's easy to go cheap and rationalize it by saying, "It's just a jag/brush, who cares?"
That may be fine, but if the hole/stem of the piece is machined off center, when its attached to the cleaning rod it means there's an edge hanging off to one side. That edge can catch the delicate intersection between bore/crown and peen it slightly. Brass can dent steel. It may not happen immediately, but it can/does happen.
This is why so many advise against "jerking off" a cleaning rod. Meaning running it back and forth. If you take the time to buy good stuff most of this concern goes away. Brushes generally can be reversed so long as you go all the way through and then pull back. Jags can be "scooted" up and down the bore so long as you don't exit the crown. If you do I'd encourage you to use your free hand and carefully push the jag back into the barrel.
I personally don't subscribe to the notion that carbon residue is a contributing factor to barrel wear. If it were then barrels should be wearing out at an alarming rate from just shooting them. They don't. A brush isn't going to cause carbon to embed/score a bore anymore than a bullet does as it passes through a fouled bore. By that rational the carbon would "stack up" at the tangent of the ogive/bearing surface and act like a wet stone. It doesn't. It's not going to do it with a brush/jag either. We can verify this one step further by recovering fired bullets that are in reasonably good shape. Measure the od. It's not suddenly smaller from abrasion.
Changing direction with a brush with it inside the barrel is bad juju. The bristles are going to compress as they attempt to change direction. This could potentially harm the barrel.
Take a moment and inspect the fit between the brush/jag and the rod. If there's an edge, I'd pitch it and buy a better one that aligns properly. This edge can/will drag against the bore. It's potentially harmful.
More barrels have been ruined by poor/excessive cleaning than from neglect. Especially with the modern SS custom barrels.
Companies are now making muzzle attachments that act as a bore guide. These are great products as they go a long way towards protecting the crown from impact damage during cleaning.
Just always remember, the crown is the last part of the barrel that the bullet "sees" as it makes its journey towards destruction. Ensuring its crisp/clean only adds to the success of the whole shooting experience. Treat it with care.
Also. Excessive cleaning is just as bad as not doing it at all. A barrel will tell you when its dirty. Don't clean the thing until you see a change in performance. This can mean anything. Accuracy, pressure signs, etc. . . If its not broke, don't be hell bent on fixing it just for the sake of tinkering with your gun.
The history on this excessive cleaning stems from over half a century ago when mercury was used as a principle component in priming compounds. It was very corrosive and guns required more maintenance because of it. Heavy metals aren't used anymore in priming compounds so its not the issue that it once was. Leaving a bore fouled at the end of the day just means your not going to be shooting a half dozen foulers next time you go to the range.
If you park the gun for a long time, run a dry patch prior to shooting to push any dust/condensation/rust preventative out of the bore prior. No need to wear out your elbow.
Good luck and hope this helps.
C.
Re: Damaging the barrel crown
I would add one thing to what Chad said. If you have a CM barrel push that dry patch through ASAP. The reason is the powder fouling attracts mositure as the barrel cools and then holds it against the steel. Not good in a CM barrel and over an extended period of time not so good on SS either.
Also I have from time to time over the years pushed a wet patch down the barrel before cleaning. One thing is very apparent, brushes last about twice as long but over time the loose carbon never seems to have any affect on the barrel.
I would add one thing to what Chad said. If you have a CM barrel push that dry patch through ASAP. The reason is the powder fouling attracts mositure as the barrel cools and then holds it against the steel. Not good in a CM barrel and over an extended period of time not so good on SS either.
Also I have from time to time over the years pushed a wet patch down the barrel before cleaning. One thing is very apparent, brushes last about twice as long but over time the loose carbon never seems to have any affect on the barrel.
Re: Damaging the barrel crown
Mr. Tooley is again dazzling us with wisdom.
One thing I learned when first starting out with this stuff. I began my career with smallbore. Olympic 3p, Biathalon, etc.
A number of ammunition companies like Eley, Lapua, RWS have ammo specific to biathalon that I at first didn't fully understand.
It's the lubricant.
Water is a bi product of combustion. The gross example being gasoline. Its something like for every 100 gallons of the stuff burnt it generates something like 3 gallons of water. (that figure may be total bullshit, but it's significant, that much I know)
Well if your name is Hans and you live in Finland and like to ski with a gun on your back when its -30F outside your in for a challenge. That water from shooting is going to condense on the inside of your barrel and form ice crystals. Bullets don't like that. The lubricant literally has a formula that emulates the antifreeze in your cars coolant system. It prevents the ice from forming.
The point in this is the moisture issue is real. Nitrocellulose base propellants (modern smokeless powder) don't generate near as much water as black powder does, but its still there.
Cool stuff!
C.
Mr. Tooley is again dazzling us with wisdom.
One thing I learned when first starting out with this stuff. I began my career with smallbore. Olympic 3p, Biathalon, etc.
A number of ammunition companies like Eley, Lapua, RWS have ammo specific to biathalon that I at first didn't fully understand.
It's the lubricant.
Water is a bi product of combustion. The gross example being gasoline. Its something like for every 100 gallons of the stuff burnt it generates something like 3 gallons of water. (that figure may be total bullshit, but it's significant, that much I know)
Well if your name is Hans and you live in Finland and like to ski with a gun on your back when its -30F outside your in for a challenge. That water from shooting is going to condense on the inside of your barrel and form ice crystals. Bullets don't like that. The lubricant literally has a formula that emulates the antifreeze in your cars coolant system. It prevents the ice from forming.
The point in this is the moisture issue is real. Nitrocellulose base propellants (modern smokeless powder) don't generate near as much water as black powder does, but its still there.
Cool stuff!
C.
Re: Damaging the barrel crown
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brutus,
You should know more about this than most others.....is there any evidence that double strucking with a brush has ever damaged the crown on a good barrel?
Thanks,
Gil Horsley</div></div>
I can't answer for Brutas, but I know that Frank Green of Bartlein would tell you to never double stroke. Actually he'd probably tell you not to use a brush at all.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brutus,
You should know more about this than most others.....is there any evidence that double strucking with a brush has ever damaged the crown on a good barrel?
Thanks,
Gil Horsley</div></div>
I can't answer for Brutas, but I know that Frank Green of Bartlein would tell you to never double stroke. Actually he'd probably tell you not to use a brush at all.
Re: Damaging the barrel crown
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. Tooley is again dazzling us with wisdom.
One thing I learned when first starting out with this stuff. I began my career with smallbore. Olympic 3p, Biathalon, etc.
A number of ammunition companies like Eley, Lapua, RWS have ammo specific to biathalon that I at first didn't fully understand.
It's the lubricant.
Water is a bi product of combustion. The gross example being gasoline. Its something like for every 100 gallons of the stuff burnt it generates something like 3 gallons of water. (that figure may be total bullshit, but it's significant, that much I know)
Well if your name is Hans and you live in Finland and like to ski with a gun on your back when its -30F outside your in for a challenge. That water from shooting is going to condense on the inside of your barrel and form ice crystals. Bullets don't like that. The lubricant literally has a formula that emulates the antifreeze in your cars coolant system. It prevents the ice from forming.
The point in this is the moisture issue is real. Nitrocellulose base propellants (modern smokeless powder) don't generate near as much water as black powder does, but its still there.
Cool stuff!
C. </div></div>
Chad is being over generous. A quick back-of-a-napkin calculation gives:
1 gal gasoline + 21 lbs O2 (from air) -> 20 lbs CO2 + 0.8 gal H2O
So you get 80 gallons of water from 100 gallons of gasoline.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. Tooley is again dazzling us with wisdom.
One thing I learned when first starting out with this stuff. I began my career with smallbore. Olympic 3p, Biathalon, etc.
A number of ammunition companies like Eley, Lapua, RWS have ammo specific to biathalon that I at first didn't fully understand.
It's the lubricant.
Water is a bi product of combustion. The gross example being gasoline. Its something like for every 100 gallons of the stuff burnt it generates something like 3 gallons of water. (that figure may be total bullshit, but it's significant, that much I know)
Well if your name is Hans and you live in Finland and like to ski with a gun on your back when its -30F outside your in for a challenge. That water from shooting is going to condense on the inside of your barrel and form ice crystals. Bullets don't like that. The lubricant literally has a formula that emulates the antifreeze in your cars coolant system. It prevents the ice from forming.
The point in this is the moisture issue is real. Nitrocellulose base propellants (modern smokeless powder) don't generate near as much water as black powder does, but its still there.
Cool stuff!
C. </div></div>
Chad is being over generous. A quick back-of-a-napkin calculation gives:
1 gal gasoline + 21 lbs O2 (from air) -> 20 lbs CO2 + 0.8 gal H2O
So you get 80 gallons of water from 100 gallons of gasoline.
Re: Damaging the barrel crown
Yep, You can't burn without producing H20, simple redox equation.
Yep, You can't burn without producing H20, simple redox equation.
Re: Damaging the barrel crown
phukkin chemists!
Good stuff.
phukkin chemists!
Good stuff.
