Data Book and Charts - Dope - Wind Rose - Weaponized Math - MOA to Mil - Jack Master

Row_trg

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Is the weaponized math for every caliber or is it caliber specific? I'm quite new to this, but what is the difference between try and true?

I really like al the work you all have done!
 

Nik H

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I have updated the 1st post of the thread with a Google sheets link so you all can make your own and print your own or download them to Excel. The sheet includes the main Data book page (minus wind info), the movers charts and the DA charts.
Can't thank you enough!!
 

Jack Master

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Is the weaponized math for every caliber or is it caliber specific? I'm quite new to this, but what is the difference between try and true?

I really like al the work you all have done!
Weaponized math is for every caliber. That is the beauty of it.
 
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Jack Master

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@Jack Master I used your Weaponized Math sheet today taking my shorty 308 out to 625 for the first time. It worked great!

16.5" 308, 175 SMK, 44.1 Varget, Lapua Palma
~700-800 DA / 63*F
2485 FPS
  • 1.6@300 said 2.8, ended up being 2.7
  • 2.7@400 said 3.7, was spot on
  • 3.7@500 said 5.1, ended up at 5.4
  • 5.4@600, 5.7@625.
Tomorrow I'll be taking it out as far as I can push it (range goes to ~2000). I'll report back on the 700-1000 results (although I've now got enough data to true my software so I'll compare the Weaponized math to that).

Thanks again for a great resource, it was awesome being on the line with just my rifle & my data book, instead of my nose being buried in software.
I'k glad its working for you. Credit goes to @Enough Said for the system. I just put it on a paper chart.
 
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Storm Tactical

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If anyone is interested in Rite in Rain products for your DIY Data Books, we just received another 500 Binders and zipper covers. We also have the perforated RNR paper in bulk packs. This is for the 6 ring industry standard size. (Will fit Storm Tactical, US Tactical Supply, Franklin Covey, etc)
 

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delfuego

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Storm Tactical took good care of me recently, and they are honest people. Order a book, you won't be disappointed.

If anyone is interested in Rite in Rain products for your DIY Data Books, we just received another 500 Binders and zipper covers. We also have the perforated RNR paper in bulk packs. This is for the 6 ring industry standard size. (Will fit Storm Tactical, US Tactical Supply, Franklin Covey, etc)
 

Row_trg

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I've converted the weaponized math to MOA. I know there is a conversion table next to it but this is just more convenient in my dope book.

I used the lay-out and data from the Original weaponized math, all credits go to @Enough Said and @Jack Master. If someone is offended by it or if it is not allowed then please remove my post.
 

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Kane0519

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As an exercise I filled out a table of random distances from 65yd to 1035yd last night with my best guess as both drop and wind. The sheet said to use a 10 mph, full value wind. Afterward you check your guess against your ballistic calculator.

My guesses on my drop weren’t very good so I need to work on memorizing those. But my wind “calls” were extremely good because I used this method. My guesses were all within 0.2 mil of what the calculator confirmed.
 

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Update 5/13/2020 - I have updated the Google Document.
  1. On the Density Altitude sheet the - Station pressure is now calculated for you once you enter the temperature and desire density altitude. This way you can simply fill the DA sheet in for what you want and input that into your ballistic calculator. You no longer need to calculate DAs. Give it the desired DA and temp and it will tell you the station pressure to put in your calculator.
  2. I have added more sheets to the wrist coach. You can now print out Dope sheets for each of the columns on the DA sheet.
Shared Data Book Sheets
 

TacticalDillhole

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Update 5/13/2020 - I have updated the Google Document.
  1. On the Density Altitude sheet the - Station pressure is now calculated for you once you enter the temperature and desire density altitude. This way you can simply fill the DA sheet in for what you want and input that into your ballistic calculator. You no longer need to calculate DAs. Give it the desired DA and temp and it will tell you the station pressure to put in your calculator.
  2. I have added more sheets to the wrist coach. You can now print out Dope sheets for each of the columns on the DA sheet.
Shared Data Book Sheets
Check this info....15 degrees is a 1000 foot change from standard at the given elevation.

1589411516129.png

For example. If I'm on the beach in standard conditions, My DA is 0. But if the temp goes up and pressure stays the same (not likely, just illustrating an example) whats my DA now? 1000 even though pressure didn't change.

On a personal note, I'm not convinced this is the best way to tackle this. the DA should be derived not the pressure. IMO, its better to make one of these charts for every say .5" if Hg and every 10 degrees. this would give a more accurate solution, especially since the formula is already 120 feet off in standard conditions (wont cause a miss, but errors could compound). The answer should be 29.92 ( it will actually be a touch higher since we are assuming a 50% RH) not 30.04

View attachment 7325289

This is how the header on my Field cards is set up:

1589412288590.png

The 3 rows of numbers are MV, DA, Temp respectively. The DA is calcultaed based on the Pressure setting in the header and temp with 50% RH.
 

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Jack Master

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Check this info....15 degrees is a 1000 foot change from standard at the given elevation.
This is not for standard DA changes due to temperature change. This is for change in muzzle velocity due to temperature change.

On a personal note, I'm not convinced this is the best way to tackle this. the DA should be derived not the pressure.
Think of this from A "filling out the spreedsheet" direction. As a user. When we make a DA sheet we want to have good round #s. We don't want 2038da we want 2000. So I wrote the equation to give us the station pressure that we then put in our ballistic program, then fill out the drop data on the sheet. It's helping the user know what pressure to use in thier program. On the main drop sheet (first one) I used the temp and pressure to get the da since this could be what you recorded in the field while gathering dope. That DA could be anything, but on a DA sheet, I want the round numbers.

IMO, its better to make one of these charts for every say .5" if Hg and every 10 degrees. this would give a more accurate solution
Agreed. Your chart is likely more accurate. But, to do 0.5 hg from 32.00 to 24.00 you will have 16 pages of data. Or, you can have 4 pages (30 to 28) and you'll have to use barometric pressure rather than station pressure plus know your elevation. With 16 charts... or even 4 charts you've repeated most of your data 3 times because they become the same DA. Plus, if you are looking up a pressure and temperature YOU ARE NOT USING DA. When shooting, if its hot, and I have a low station pressure I get 3000ft DA then have cold and a high station pressure I have the same 3000DA. Both of these have nearly the same shooting solution. When I'm useing the card in the field i calulate my DA and use that column. I don't use the temp or station pressure on the chart unless I need to make the muzzle velocity correction, this is why temp is listed.
And let's make sure we are looking at this in context. Changing 2000 DA and shooting under 500 yards is not going to effect our bullet flight enough to matter. Changing 2000 DA and shooting 500 to 1000yds is going to have some effect. Inside 1000yds i have found rounding up or down 500da and interpolating on the sheet has worked well for me. Over 1000 we'll need to consult a ballistic calculator to get a refined solution, my chart is a bit too course for that, but it gives you a starting place if you can't get out a calculator. Understand the context of how much change will really happen. Change in temp, change in DA, change in data.

especially since the formula is already 120 feet off in standard conditions (wont cause a miss, but errors could compound). The answer should be 29.92 ( it will actually be a touch higher since we are assuming a 50% RH) not 30.04
Yes, the equation is not perfect because I had to manually apply a correction factor for the humidity. I have found this to be 27 feet off. Here is the website that i have found to be most accurate. https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm. If you'd like to come up with a more accurate formula I'd be happy to have a look at it. Remember the context, rounding 500 feet is not out of the ordinary unless you are shooting ELR. This chart is mostly for inside 1000 as I stated in the original post.

Most of this is a fundamental disagreement about how to use DA, we're both correct, we're just using the data differently.
 
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TacticalDillhole

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This is not for standard DA changes due to temperature change. This is for change in muzzle velocity due to temperature change.


Think of this from A "filling out the spreedsheet" direction. As a user. When we make a DA sheet we want to have good round #s. We don't want 2038da we want 2000. So I wrote the equation to give us the station pressure that we then put in our ballistic program, then fill out the drop data on the sheet. It's helping the user know what pressure to use in thier program. On the main drop sheet (first one) I used the temp and pressure to get the da since this could be what you recorded in the field while gathering dope. That DA could be anything, but on a DA sheet, I want the round numbers.


Agreed. Your chart is likely more accurate. But, to do 0.5 hg from 32.00 to 24.00 you will have 16 pages of data. Or, you can have 4 pages (30 to 28) and you'll have to use barometric pressure rather than station pressure plus know your elevation. With 16 charts... or even 4 charts you've repeated most of your data 3 times because they become the same DA. Plus, if you are looking up a pressure and temperature YOU ARE NOT USING DA. When shooting, if its hot, and I have a low station pressure I get 3000ft DA then have cold and a high station pressure I have the same 3000DA. Both of these have nearly the same shooting solution. When I'm useing the card in the field i calulate my DA and use that column. I don't use the temp or station pressure on the chart unless I need to make the muzzle velocity correction, this is why temp is listed.
And let's make sure we are looking at this in context. Changing 2000 DA and shooting under 500 yards is not going to effect our bullet flight enough to matter. Changing 2000 DA and shooting 500 to 1000yds is going to have some effect. Inside 1000yds i have found rounding up or down 500da and interpolating on the sheet has worked well for me. Over 1000 we'll need to consult a ballistic calculator to get a refined solution, my chart is a bit too course for that, but it gives you a starting place if you can't get out a calculator. Understand the context of how much change will really happen. Change in temp, change in DA, change in data.


Yes, the equation is not perfect because I had to manually apply a correction factor for the humidity. I have found this to be 27 feet off. Here is the website that i have found to be most accurate. https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm. If you'd like to come up with a more accurate formula I'd be happy to have a look at it. Remember the context, rounding 500 feet is not out of the ordinary unless you are shooting ELR. This chart is mostly for inside 1000 as I stated in the original post.

Most of this is a fundamental disagreement about how to use DA, we're both correct, we're just using the data differently.
Agreed. Nothing you did was incorrect. Just adding to the convo.
 
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TacticalDillhole

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This is not for standard DA changes due to temperature change. This is for change in muzzle velocity due to temperature change.


Think of this from A "filling out the spreedsheet" direction. As a user. When we make a DA sheet we want to have good round #s. We don't want 2038da we want 2000. So I wrote the equation to give us the station pressure that we then put in our ballistic program, then fill out the drop data on the sheet. It's helping the user know what pressure to use in thier program. On the main drop sheet (first one) I used the temp and pressure to get the da since this could be what you recorded in the field while gathering dope. That DA could be anything, but on a DA sheet, I want the round numbers.


Agreed. Your chart is likely more accurate. But, to do 0.5 hg from 32.00 to 24.00 you will have 16 pages of data. Or, you can have 4 pages (30 to 28) and you'll have to use barometric pressure rather than station pressure plus know your elevation. With 16 charts... or even 4 charts you've repeated most of your data 3 times because they become the same DA. Plus, if you are looking up a pressure and temperature YOU ARE NOT USING DA. When shooting, if its hot, and I have a low station pressure I get 3000ft DA then have cold and a high station pressure I have the same 3000DA. Both of these have nearly the same shooting solution. When I'm useing the card in the field i calulate my DA and use that column. I don't use the temp or station pressure on the chart unless I need to make the muzzle velocity correction, this is why temp is listed.
And let's make sure we are looking at this in context. Changing 2000 DA and shooting under 500 yards is not going to effect our bullet flight enough to matter. Changing 2000 DA and shooting 500 to 1000yds is going to have some effect. Inside 1000yds i have found rounding up or down 500da and interpolating on the sheet has worked well for me. Over 1000 we'll need to consult a ballistic calculator to get a refined solution, my chart is a bit too course for that, but it gives you a starting place if you can't get out a calculator. Understand the context of how much change will really happen. Change in temp, change in DA, change in data.


Yes, the equation is not perfect because I had to manually apply a correction factor for the humidity. I have found this to be 27 feet off. Here is the website that i have found to be most accurate. https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm. If you'd like to come up with a more accurate formula I'd be happy to have a look at it. Remember the context, rounding 500 feet is not out of the ordinary unless you are shooting ELR. This chart is mostly for inside 1000 as I stated in the original post.

Most of this is a fundamental disagreement about how to use DA, we're both correct, we're just using the data differently.
I will say this though, the part about the temp change and the DA every 15 degrees doesn’t jive with what your chart says. Can you explain it to my thick head
 

Jack Master

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I will say this though, the part about the temp change and the DA every 15 degrees doesn’t jive with what your chart says. Can you explain it to my thick head
Sure. So the +-15 degrees = +-500 DA is for muzzle velocity change due to temperature change. This adjustment is a rule of thumb. Warmer ambient temperatures will ignite gun powder faster and cause faster bullet speeds. The easiest might be an example.

Example.
One the range you find your temp and station pressure then convert this to DA. Say it was 4000feet DA for that day. If my 4000 da data was computed on a 60 degree temperature but today it is 90 degrees, a 30 degree difference, i need to add 1000 feet of DA to the 4000 already figured. My bullet if going to fly closer to a 5000 DA data because it will exit the rifle faster.
Make sense?
Similar if it's colder, my bullet will exit the rifle slower And I need to subtract DA.

With more modern powders this rule of thumb has become less and less but it still plays an effect. 4dof for example has a temerature/velocity correction if you actually In put what powder you are using.

20200513_215858.png
 

TacticalDillhole

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Sure. So the +-15 degrees = +-500 DA is for muzzle velocity change due to temperature change. This adjustment is a rule of thumb. Warmer ambient temperatures will ignite gun powder faster and cause faster bullet speeds. The easiest might be an example.

Example.
One the range you find your temp and station pressure then convert this to DA. Say it was 4000feet DA for that day. If my 4000 da data was computed on a 60 degree temperature but today it is 90 degrees, a 30 degree difference, i need to add 1000 feet of DA to the 4000 already figured. My bullet if going to fly closer to a 5000 DA data because it will exit the rifle faster.
Make sense?
Similar if it's colder, my bullet will exit the rifle slower And I need to subtract DA.

With more modern powders this rule of thumb has become less and less but it still plays an effect. 4dof for example has a temerature/velocity correction if you actually In put what powder you are using.

View attachment 7325548
Ok. I understand how und applying it now.
 
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FishDr

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This is not for standard DA changes due to temperature change. This is for change in muzzle velocity due to temperature change.


Think of this from A "filling out the spreedsheet" direction. As a user. When we make a DA sheet we want to have good round #s. We don't want 2038da we want 2000. So I wrote the equation to give us the station pressure that we then put in our ballistic program, then fill out the drop data on the sheet. It's helping the user know what pressure to use in thier program. On the main drop sheet (first one) I used the temp and pressure to get the da since this could be what you recorded in the field while gathering dope. That DA could be anything, but on a DA sheet, I want the round numbers.


Agreed. Your chart is likely more accurate. But, to do 0.5 hg from 32.00 to 24.00 you will have 16 pages of data. Or, you can have 4 pages (30 to 28) and you'll have to use barometric pressure rather than station pressure plus know your elevation. With 16 charts... or even 4 charts you've repeated most of your data 3 times because they become the same DA. Plus, if you are looking up a pressure and temperature YOU ARE NOT USING DA. When shooting, if its hot, and I have a low station pressure I get 3000ft DA then have cold and a high station pressure I have the same 3000DA. Both of these have nearly the same shooting solution. When I'm useing the card in the field i calulate my DA and use that column. I don't use the temp or station pressure on the chart unless I need to make the muzzle velocity correction, this is why temp is listed.
And let's make sure we are looking at this in context. Changing 2000 DA and shooting under 500 yards is not going to effect our bullet flight enough to matter. Changing 2000 DA and shooting 500 to 1000yds is going to have some effect. Inside 1000yds i have found rounding up or down 500da and interpolating on the sheet has worked well for me. Over 1000 we'll need to consult a ballistic calculator to get a refined solution, my chart is a bit too course for that, but it gives you a starting place if you can't get out a calculator. Understand the context of how much change will really happen. Change in temp, change in DA, change in data.


Yes, the equation is not perfect because I had to manually apply a correction factor for the humidity. I have found this to be 27 feet off. Here is the website that i have found to be most accurate. https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm. If you'd like to come up with a more accurate formula I'd be happy to have a look at it. Remember the context, rounding 500 feet is not out of the ordinary unless you are shooting ELR. This chart is mostly for inside 1000 as I stated in the original post.

Most of this is a fundamental disagreement about how to use DA, we're both correct, we're just using the data differently.
Excellent explanation... thanks a bunch. I was having the same question and needed the context on how you developed the sheet. Copied and definitely going into the data book. Actually, residing on the HD so I can make the data book pages! Thanks again.
 
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Jack Master

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I've converted the weaponized math to MOA. I know there is a conversion table next to it but this is just more convenient in my dope book.

I used the lay-out and data from the Original weaponized math, all credits go to @Enough Said and @Jack Master. If someone is offended by it or if it is not allowed then please remove my post.
Thanks ROW. I decided to update mine as well.

I posted an MOA version of the weapoized math in the first post of this thread. I also re-vamped the MOA to mil conversion so MOA is the base number.
Wepaonized Math MOA.jpg
 
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Enough Said

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Your DA is your altitude if the temperature is 60 degrees F. I use that as my base here in AK because we NEVER see a temp above 80 degrees at most of the places I shoot. In the summer, it's either 45, 60 or 75 degrees. Easy to pull out a Kestrel, but conditioning your shooting mind to temperature and altitude will provide a DA to within 1000 feet.

Excellent thought, research and graphing. -- Taylor
 

A&8's

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Since Jack Master and I took Frank's class last fall, I have went nearly 100% away from ballistic calcs, using hard dope instead. Also, this year I started shooting more and more movers. Movers require TOF (Time of Flight.) Below is a card I use on page 2 of my wrist coach (page 1 is plain blank index cards with stage data.) Fold these in 1/2 length wise, laminate and stick in window closest to your arm. Laminating prevents sweat from soaking your top index card and making it bleed.

I have this in excel format, too. If anyone wants it, shoot me a message.

Hope this helps.
 

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