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Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guntard007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And in defense of the 223, <span style="font-weight: bold">I have witnessed more deer killed by a 22 mag than all of my rifles combined</span>. I won't say who was behind the trigger, because rimfire is illegal for deer. Out of all the deer that were shot (25+), only one was not recovered. </div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">So what your implying is that, out of ALL your rifle's the preferred caliber is the .22 mag for deer hunting</span></span>? What your saying makes no sense at all.
</div></div>
No where did I say I prefer a 22 Mag over ALL my rifles. If I am hunting, I use a 308 as my first choice as a stand rifle and my 35 Remington lever gun as a brush gun if I am driving/swamping deer. What I sad was, I have seen a 22 Mag kill more deer than all my rifles combined. If I was going to POACH deer, rather than hunt them, I would choose the 22 Mag like the people who I was referring to did.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: guntard007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And in defense of the 223, <span style="font-weight: bold">I have witnessed more deer killed by a 22 mag than all of my rifles combined</span>. I won't say who was behind the trigger, because rimfire is illegal for deer. Out of all the deer that were shot (25+), only one was not recovered. </div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">So what your implying is that, out of ALL your rifle's the preferred caliber is the .22 mag for deer hunting</span></span>? What your saying makes no sense at all.
</div></div>
No where did I say I prefer a 22 Mag over ALL my rifles. If I am hunting, I use a 308 as my first choice as a stand rifle and my 35 Remington lever gun as a brush gun if I am driving/swamping deer. What I sad was, I have seen a 22 Mag kill more deer than all my rifles combined. If I was going to POACH deer, rather than hunt them, I would choose the 22 Mag like the people who I was referring to did.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
I started hunting the first year I was allowed to and used my Rem. 700 Mountain LSS in 7mm-08 for a year, went 30-06, Rem. 700 Police .308 for a few years, and I'm back to the Mountain. I'm far too mobile in rifle season to be carrying a wet log of a gun like the Police. If I don't fill my tags in archery this year, the Mountain will be going out again this year. I shoot factory Core-Loct 140 gr. PSP right now. The light gun is nice to carry for young and old hunters alike. But be warned, it can rock your shoulder. Managed recoil ammo might be the route to go if they are a little on the timid side.
I started hunting the first year I was allowed to and used my Rem. 700 Mountain LSS in 7mm-08 for a year, went 30-06, Rem. 700 Police .308 for a few years, and I'm back to the Mountain. I'm far too mobile in rifle season to be carrying a wet log of a gun like the Police. If I don't fill my tags in archery this year, the Mountain will be going out again this year. I shoot factory Core-Loct 140 gr. PSP right now. The light gun is nice to carry for young and old hunters alike. But be warned, it can rock your shoulder. Managed recoil ammo might be the route to go if they are a little on the timid side.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tepeter1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys
I have a friend who asked me to find him a Remington Model Seven in 6mm for his 8 year old to deer hunt with. He wants a rifle that won't beat the kid to death so that proper shooting technique will be maintained. In my search it looks like Remington discontinued the 6mm in 1984 on the Model Seven platform. This guy does not reload an never will (not the type), which begs the question I wanted to present to the forum.
What calibers would you guys recomend for a small child that are readily available, that won't punish the kids shoulder and teach him to flinch and develop bad shooting habits?
My thoughts are a .243 is easy, but I am curious about other rounds such as the .260 which I have never seen nor fired. Thanks in advance for any input you may have. </div></div>
.243 is a good choice because you can get youth models from savage or Remington. Recoil is very manageable. Its a flat shooting round. Well placed shots with this round at 200 yards will easily take a deer
Another option is a lever action 30-30. A Marlin or Henry 30-30 is short and easy to handle, and will shoulder good for a child, but it has just a little more recoil than the 243, but not bad. I still hunt with one to this day if I'm going somewhere I know i want have to shoot 200+ yards. Its a wonderful caliber for 150 yard and in. An Excellent choice for woods.
And now everyone can tell me how wrong I am on this one lol. A 223 is fine for deer with the proper selection of ammunition for big-game. If the child is recoil sensitive I recommend the 223. With the 223 he can focus more on a well placed shot, and not have to worry or be scared of recoil. A lot of children will flinch before pulling the trigger,and a 223 will be more enjoyable to shoot for a child. They can then learn the basics and have fun with a 223. Plus practice will also be cheaper as you can get surplus rounds to practice marksmanship with.
7.62x39 has the about the same ballistics/energy as a 30-30. Its capable for a deer also. <span style="font-weight: bold">I don't recommend buying one for deer hunting purposes</span>, but if you have one lying around it will work decent for a child deer hunting for 150 yards and in.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tepeter1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys
I have a friend who asked me to find him a Remington Model Seven in 6mm for his 8 year old to deer hunt with. He wants a rifle that won't beat the kid to death so that proper shooting technique will be maintained. In my search it looks like Remington discontinued the 6mm in 1984 on the Model Seven platform. This guy does not reload an never will (not the type), which begs the question I wanted to present to the forum.
What calibers would you guys recomend for a small child that are readily available, that won't punish the kids shoulder and teach him to flinch and develop bad shooting habits?
My thoughts are a .243 is easy, but I am curious about other rounds such as the .260 which I have never seen nor fired. Thanks in advance for any input you may have. </div></div>
.243 is a good choice because you can get youth models from savage or Remington. Recoil is very manageable. Its a flat shooting round. Well placed shots with this round at 200 yards will easily take a deer
Another option is a lever action 30-30. A Marlin or Henry 30-30 is short and easy to handle, and will shoulder good for a child, but it has just a little more recoil than the 243, but not bad. I still hunt with one to this day if I'm going somewhere I know i want have to shoot 200+ yards. Its a wonderful caliber for 150 yard and in. An Excellent choice for woods.
And now everyone can tell me how wrong I am on this one lol. A 223 is fine for deer with the proper selection of ammunition for big-game. If the child is recoil sensitive I recommend the 223. With the 223 he can focus more on a well placed shot, and not have to worry or be scared of recoil. A lot of children will flinch before pulling the trigger,and a 223 will be more enjoyable to shoot for a child. They can then learn the basics and have fun with a 223. Plus practice will also be cheaper as you can get surplus rounds to practice marksmanship with.
7.62x39 has the about the same ballistics/energy as a 30-30. Its capable for a deer also. <span style="font-weight: bold">I don't recommend buying one for deer hunting purposes</span>, but if you have one lying around it will work decent for a child deer hunting for 150 yards and in.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
CDNN has the Remington mini-mauser in 7.62x39 on sale for 400 bucks.
Loaded with the right ammo, it is a dandy deer gitter.
CDNN has the Remington mini-mauser in 7.62x39 on sale for 400 bucks.
Loaded with the right ammo, it is a dandy deer gitter.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
I reread your opening post, and you did say in a Model 7. In that case I will change my suggestion from 30-30 or 7.62x39 to a .308 Win. Yep, and I am sticking to it. Remington (and maybe Federal) makes a managed recoil load. 125gr SP at about 2600fps makes it a kitty cat to shoot.
I reread your opening post, and you did say in a Model 7. In that case I will change my suggestion from 30-30 or 7.62x39 to a .308 Win. Yep, and I am sticking to it. Remington (and maybe Federal) makes a managed recoil load. 125gr SP at about 2600fps makes it a kitty cat to shoot.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
Me, I'd start 'em with a .30-30 lever carbine. Nothing to grow into, been whackin' deer long time now...
Me, I'd start 'em with a .30-30 lever carbine. Nothing to grow into, been whackin' deer long time now...
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
"I started my deer hunting career out with a Marlin 336 .30-30 and killed alot of deer with it."
"Me, I'd start 'em with a .30-30 lever carbine. Nothing to grow into, been whackin' deer long time now..."
.30-30 gets my vote also, more deer have been taken with that cartridge than all others.
"I started my deer hunting career out with a Marlin 336 .30-30 and killed alot of deer with it."
"Me, I'd start 'em with a .30-30 lever carbine. Nothing to grow into, been whackin' deer long time now..."
.30-30 gets my vote also, more deer have been taken with that cartridge than all others.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
I built my boys a 700 youth 6.8SPC and they love it. Deer have been dropping like flies since! Oh and my boys are 8 and 5 and have averaged two a year for the 8 year old since he was 4.5 yrs old and the 5 killed his first last season at 4.5 yrs old with it.
Build is
700 6.8 action from PSS
Ligth tactical rifle fluted barrel (like a #1 or 2 contour)
700 factory youth stock
110 Hornady VMAX switching to TSX this year
Leupold 3.5x10x40
I built my boys a 700 youth 6.8SPC and they love it. Deer have been dropping like flies since! Oh and my boys are 8 and 5 and have averaged two a year for the 8 year old since he was 4.5 yrs old and the 5 killed his first last season at 4.5 yrs old with it.
Build is
700 6.8 action from PSS
Ligth tactical rifle fluted barrel (like a #1 or 2 contour)
700 factory youth stock
110 Hornady VMAX switching to TSX this year
Leupold 3.5x10x40
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
I think some posters have eluded to this, but another factor to consider besides the recoil is the type of terrain that will be hunted in. In an area that is brushy with minimal open areas or they will be stalk hunting a 30-30 would be great and meet the recoil sensitive requirement as well as give your friend easy access to store bought ammo. If the area is more wide open and they are likely to be sitting in a deer blind then the .243 would make more sense.
I would definitely recommend purchasing a .22lr or .17HMR bolt gun and have the child shoot a few hundred rounds through that and then transition them to the larger rifle. It will be easier (and cheaper) to develop good shooting habits on the rimfire bolt rifle that will directly apply to using the larger hunting rifle.
I did a quick 5 minute Google search trying to find if Mississippi had a caliber limitation but didn't turn anything up.
I think some posters have eluded to this, but another factor to consider besides the recoil is the type of terrain that will be hunted in. In an area that is brushy with minimal open areas or they will be stalk hunting a 30-30 would be great and meet the recoil sensitive requirement as well as give your friend easy access to store bought ammo. If the area is more wide open and they are likely to be sitting in a deer blind then the .243 would make more sense.
I would definitely recommend purchasing a .22lr or .17HMR bolt gun and have the child shoot a few hundred rounds through that and then transition them to the larger rifle. It will be easier (and cheaper) to develop good shooting habits on the rimfire bolt rifle that will directly apply to using the larger hunting rifle.
I did a quick 5 minute Google search trying to find if Mississippi had a caliber limitation but didn't turn anything up.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Me, I'd start 'em with a .30-30 lever carbine. Nothing to grow into, been whackin' deer long time now... </div></div>
+1
Great all around rifle. Great in the brush and I would wager that to this day the 30/30 still holds the record for game kill's than any other rifle.
Why someone would hunt with a .223 is beyone me. Maybe they are playing rambo hunting deer, who knows. The 30/30 is great and it works great if you have ever hunted off of horseback.
MS
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Me, I'd start 'em with a .30-30 lever carbine. Nothing to grow into, been whackin' deer long time now... </div></div>
+1
Great all around rifle. Great in the brush and I would wager that to this day the 30/30 still holds the record for game kill's than any other rifle.
Why someone would hunt with a .223 is beyone me. Maybe they are playing rambo hunting deer, who knows. The 30/30 is great and it works great if you have ever hunted off of horseback.
MS
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
I'd say a used Rem700 in 243 would be a great starter rifle. I found a used Rem700 in 7mmRM two years ago for $350. I wouldn't be surprised if you can find a similar deal. 243 is a great caliber, TONS of ammo selection, low recoil. And you know what they say, you don't feel the recoil anyway when you're pulling the trigger on a buck.
I'd say a used Rem700 in 243 would be a great starter rifle. I found a used Rem700 in 7mmRM two years ago for $350. I wouldn't be surprised if you can find a similar deal. 243 is a great caliber, TONS of ammo selection, low recoil. And you know what they say, you don't feel the recoil anyway when you're pulling the trigger on a buck.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
The first lever deer gun I ever used was my Brother's Marlin 336 .35Rem. My current one is a Win '94AE .44mag Carbine with a dot scope and a Limbsaver pad. A bit crisp but very manageable. Really likes 180gr Rem/UMC Jacketed FNSP's, and recoil is not ferocious with the Limbsaver. Thinking about putting my 9th grader Granddaughter behind it soon.
Greg
The first lever deer gun I ever used was my Brother's Marlin 336 .35Rem. My current one is a Win '94AE .44mag Carbine with a dot scope and a Limbsaver pad. A bit crisp but very manageable. Really likes 180gr Rem/UMC Jacketed FNSP's, and recoil is not ferocious with the Limbsaver. Thinking about putting my 9th grader Granddaughter behind it soon.
Greg
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Me, I'd start 'em with a .30-30 lever carbine. Nothing to grow into, been whackin' deer long time now... </div></div>
'
30-30 is an excellent choice. That's what I killed my fist deer with as a child, and its what Ive killed the most deer with. I still only deer hunt with a 30-30 and .270 to this day, that's it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Me, I'd start 'em with a .30-30 lever carbine. Nothing to grow into, been whackin' deer long time now... </div></div>
'
30-30 is an excellent choice. That's what I killed my fist deer with as a child, and its what Ive killed the most deer with. I still only deer hunt with a 30-30 and .270 to this day, that's it.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
I cast my vote for the .243 also. Shot my first buck with a Remington 788 chambered in that caliber. It was a 300 pound (live weight) white-tail. Used regular Remington ammo with an 80 grain softpoint. Only about a 200 yard shot but for a kids first deer and a buck that big (140 gross B&C)it wasn't bad. My grandpa was happier than I was believe it or not. But anyway the round brought him down really quick. I always loved shooting that gun as a kid, and now when my son gets a little more trigger time that is the gun he will shoot his first with.
I cast my vote for the .243 also. Shot my first buck with a Remington 788 chambered in that caliber. It was a 300 pound (live weight) white-tail. Used regular Remington ammo with an 80 grain softpoint. Only about a 200 yard shot but for a kids first deer and a buck that big (140 gross B&C)it wasn't bad. My grandpa was happier than I was believe it or not. But anyway the round brought him down really quick. I always loved shooting that gun as a kid, and now when my son gets a little more trigger time that is the gun he will shoot his first with.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
Will he be hunting primarily in MS? My aunt and uncle hunt with a 22-250 in northern FL and southern AL, and everything they have shot with it never took another step. I am not sure what bullet they uses but I know my uncle doesn't reload for it. That would be my first choice for hunting deer in the south. If they ever plan on going out west for mule deer or up north for the big whitetail then the 243 or 7mm-08 would be my choice. Just my two cents. Good luck to your friend.
Will he be hunting primarily in MS? My aunt and uncle hunt with a 22-250 in northern FL and southern AL, and everything they have shot with it never took another step. I am not sure what bullet they uses but I know my uncle doesn't reload for it. That would be my first choice for hunting deer in the south. If they ever plan on going out west for mule deer or up north for the big whitetail then the 243 or 7mm-08 would be my choice. Just my two cents. Good luck to your friend.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
Our deer up here in the Great White North tend to grow larger. Something about greater mass vs surface area favoring heat conservation. A big doe can run 140 lb dressed and larger.
I can't speak for the deer, but I can tell you I don't envy them wintering over around these parts.
We see minus singe digits and on rare occasions, minus teens. After a dawn and a dusk of that stuff, 15 feet up in a stand, 15MPH winds with gust, etc., I am duly chastened and fully renewed to a state of grace, as the nuns might say.
22's don't get it around here. Folks use .30cal (.30-30/.308/.30'-06), 50cal M/L, or a minimum of 20ga slugs. I plan to see how the .280/139SST concoction works this year, with the .44Mag and the above as fallbacks. Next year, if the Eagle poops rightly, I may be fielding a Savage 220, and to heck with the rest.
Last year, a couple, three hundred thousand pounds of venison got donated to the needy in this state. I know for a fact that speedies are a staple party fare around these parts.
We don't hunt around here, we harvest.
Greg
Our deer up here in the Great White North tend to grow larger. Something about greater mass vs surface area favoring heat conservation. A big doe can run 140 lb dressed and larger.
I can't speak for the deer, but I can tell you I don't envy them wintering over around these parts.
We see minus singe digits and on rare occasions, minus teens. After a dawn and a dusk of that stuff, 15 feet up in a stand, 15MPH winds with gust, etc., I am duly chastened and fully renewed to a state of grace, as the nuns might say.
22's don't get it around here. Folks use .30cal (.30-30/.308/.30'-06), 50cal M/L, or a minimum of 20ga slugs. I plan to see how the .280/139SST concoction works this year, with the .44Mag and the above as fallbacks. Next year, if the Eagle poops rightly, I may be fielding a Savage 220, and to heck with the rest.
Last year, a couple, three hundred thousand pounds of venison got donated to the needy in this state. I know for a fact that speedies are a staple party fare around these parts.
We don't hunt around here, we harvest.
Greg
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
Ah, all those loads are a little on the light side, I would go with something like this for deer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyAl9qK3Rlg
Ah, all those loads are a little on the light side, I would go with something like this for deer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyAl9qK3Rlg
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
I will put in another vote for the 30-30. My first deer rifle was a Marlin 336cs in 30-30. Capable for most deer and like mentioned above the darned things drop like a stone after about 200 yards or so.
I will put in another vote for the 30-30. My first deer rifle was a Marlin 336cs in 30-30. Capable for most deer and like mentioned above the darned things drop like a stone after about 200 yards or so.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
.243 gets my vote, as in this country its the minimum recomended calibre for small-med size deer.
Im sure you could go smaller, but I try to be as ethical as I can be.
.243 gets my vote, as in this country its the minimum recomended calibre for small-med size deer.
Im sure you could go smaller, but I try to be as ethical as I can be.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
I'm sticking to 7mm-08 over .243 simply because you can find Managed Recoil ammo and COULD find heavier lead for the possibility of bear hunting in the future... I know of a few people who've killed decent black bear with 7mm-08 and 7mmRem. Mag. Of course, .308 Win. is just as great if not better! My 7mm-08 is gonna be my coyote gun this year until I can get a .204.
I'm sticking to 7mm-08 over .243 simply because you can find Managed Recoil ammo and COULD find heavier lead for the possibility of bear hunting in the future... I know of a few people who've killed decent black bear with 7mm-08 and 7mmRem. Mag. Of course, .308 Win. is just as great if not better! My 7mm-08 is gonna be my coyote gun this year until I can get a .204.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
I didn't read all the posts so I apologize if this is redundant. It differs state to state but at least in VA, Rifles used for deer or bear must be .23 caliber or larger. Make sure you check the big game laws in your state for caliber restrictions.
My vote would go for the .243, 30-30 or something else in .30 cal depending on the terrain and ranges at which the hunting will likely take place.
I didn't read all the posts so I apologize if this is redundant. It differs state to state but at least in VA, Rifles used for deer or bear must be .23 caliber or larger. Make sure you check the big game laws in your state for caliber restrictions.
My vote would go for the .243, 30-30 or something else in .30 cal depending on the terrain and ranges at which the hunting will likely take place.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
.223 or .243...All about the bullet...
.223 or .243...All about the bullet...
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
Another vote for the .243 -- I've seen it used quite effectively in North Dakota on whitetails. In this case it was a small-framed gal that was doing the shooting ... but the rifle would've worked great for a youngin' as well. Good range, light rifles and recoil, and a great choice of hunting bullets.
Just my 2 cents...
Another vote for the .243 -- I've seen it used quite effectively in North Dakota on whitetails. In this case it was a small-framed gal that was doing the shooting ... but the rifle would've worked great for a youngin' as well. Good range, light rifles and recoil, and a great choice of hunting bullets.
Just my 2 cents...
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
250 Savage is the way to fly. I have 2 built on rem 700 actions and they are great. Very little recoil and they do the job well on South Texas deer. Recoil is extremely light and the muzzle rises just enough to lose the sight picture. It is a great round for the youngsters as well as the old farts who do not care for recoil.
250 Savage is the way to fly. I have 2 built on rem 700 actions and they are great. Very little recoil and they do the job well on South Texas deer. Recoil is extremely light and the muzzle rises just enough to lose the sight picture. It is a great round for the youngsters as well as the old farts who do not care for recoil.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
Hi tepeter1: based on what you can find a Remington 7 for, I would suggest 243, 7mm-08, and 308:
- 243 is the obvious, low recoil, flat trajectory, cheap ammo
- 7mm-08 is a great all-around round, cheap ammo too, with more recoil than the 243, so I am not sure how good it would be for the 8-year old: my 12 year old is small, a good shooter, and the 7mm-08 is just right for him, but I could not have given him a 7mm-08 at age 8. So it depends upon how experienced a shooter the boy is, and how big he is. The round is a much better all around cartridge than the 243 though.
- 308 is not outright bad, because there are reduced loads for the 308, and of course you cannot do much better than 308 for a real versatile round. But - even the reduced loads in 308 month be too hot? He would have a try a few at the range first.
Now - everyone is entitled to his own opinion. I understand we all have different experiences. My opinion is that one would be very misguided to buy a 223 caliber rifle for a boy's deer gun: yes, you can kill a deer, but you have to have good shot placement, and the round cannot go up-weight well into bigger targets, beyond the fact that it is not allowed in many states of the nation. This is simply an improper round choice for the purpose. It is an excellent vermin round which, in the hands of an experienced shooter, can be used to take deer. Putting it in the hands of an inexperienced shooter, in my opinion, is simply unethical. If 223 can do the job, why not 22LR then - people have taken lots of deer with 22LR - they have also wounded many... If it was my boy, I'd get him one of the three calibers above (243, 7mm-08, 308 w/ reduced loads), and be sure that he will be able to keep and enjoy his deer rifle for the rest of his life if he wishes to. But my feeling is that, unless he is big and experienced shooter, 243 is likely to be the only caliber that fits.
As for 260, 6.8, and most of the others mentioned - they will do the job but the ammo is much more expensive and hard to find. If you are in the boonies and suddenly need a box of ammo, what are you likely to find at the neighborhood store? The five most likely calibers are 223, 243, 270, 308, and 30-06. 7mm08 is not as common but very findable. Of course, 270 and 30-06 are totally unsuitable due to recoil.
Hi tepeter1: based on what you can find a Remington 7 for, I would suggest 243, 7mm-08, and 308:
- 243 is the obvious, low recoil, flat trajectory, cheap ammo
- 7mm-08 is a great all-around round, cheap ammo too, with more recoil than the 243, so I am not sure how good it would be for the 8-year old: my 12 year old is small, a good shooter, and the 7mm-08 is just right for him, but I could not have given him a 7mm-08 at age 8. So it depends upon how experienced a shooter the boy is, and how big he is. The round is a much better all around cartridge than the 243 though.
- 308 is not outright bad, because there are reduced loads for the 308, and of course you cannot do much better than 308 for a real versatile round. But - even the reduced loads in 308 month be too hot? He would have a try a few at the range first.
Now - everyone is entitled to his own opinion. I understand we all have different experiences. My opinion is that one would be very misguided to buy a 223 caliber rifle for a boy's deer gun: yes, you can kill a deer, but you have to have good shot placement, and the round cannot go up-weight well into bigger targets, beyond the fact that it is not allowed in many states of the nation. This is simply an improper round choice for the purpose. It is an excellent vermin round which, in the hands of an experienced shooter, can be used to take deer. Putting it in the hands of an inexperienced shooter, in my opinion, is simply unethical. If 223 can do the job, why not 22LR then - people have taken lots of deer with 22LR - they have also wounded many... If it was my boy, I'd get him one of the three calibers above (243, 7mm-08, 308 w/ reduced loads), and be sure that he will be able to keep and enjoy his deer rifle for the rest of his life if he wishes to. But my feeling is that, unless he is big and experienced shooter, 243 is likely to be the only caliber that fits.
As for 260, 6.8, and most of the others mentioned - they will do the job but the ammo is much more expensive and hard to find. If you are in the boonies and suddenly need a box of ammo, what are you likely to find at the neighborhood store? The five most likely calibers are 223, 243, 270, 308, and 30-06. 7mm08 is not as common but very findable. Of course, 270 and 30-06 are totally unsuitable due to recoil.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
Go quarter bore or go home.
Go quarter bore or go home.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WestOfPecos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Of course, 270 and 30-06 are totally unsuitable due to recoil. </div></div>
They don't make reduced loads for these???
jeeess....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WestOfPecos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Of course, 270 and 30-06 are totally unsuitable due to recoil. </div></div>
They don't make reduced loads for these???
jeeess....
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
IMO the best rifle for any new hunter is a break open action rifle. Like a Contender or an Encore. Safety is the first thing a youngin MUST learn. And if the action is open then the rifle is safe. It is that simple.
Personally I do not care for the sub caliber cartridges for deer hunting. There are ways to get bullet weight into a rifle and keep the recoil low.
Next the rifle must fit them. An Encore really shines here because you can pick up a used stock from E-Bay very cheap. and cut it down.
Now to cartridge. I would suggest a 357 magnum chambering. Especially for a non-reloader. They can get in alot of practice with 38 Special rounds, and I assure you there is no recoil there. 38 Special ammo is about as cheap as you can get. And the 357 magnum is a very effective cartridge in a rifle for deer. A good 158 grain cast bullet is deadly, and recoil will be very manageable.
The last thing to think about for kids is muzzle blast. Personally I believe kids are more afraid of muzzle blast than they are recoil. So a good long 28" barrel in an Encore will improve cartridge performance, while lowering muzzle blast and recoil. As well s reducing muzzle blast(and flip) to the youngin. And still not too long to carry because it is a break action.
My girlfriend has a 30 Carbine in an Encore that I reload for her. And you do not want to be within 100 yards of her and her rifle. She is deadly, and I cast a great deer killing bullet for that cartridge. And it is very effective on deer. Tom.
IMO the best rifle for any new hunter is a break open action rifle. Like a Contender or an Encore. Safety is the first thing a youngin MUST learn. And if the action is open then the rifle is safe. It is that simple.
Personally I do not care for the sub caliber cartridges for deer hunting. There are ways to get bullet weight into a rifle and keep the recoil low.
Next the rifle must fit them. An Encore really shines here because you can pick up a used stock from E-Bay very cheap. and cut it down.
Now to cartridge. I would suggest a 357 magnum chambering. Especially for a non-reloader. They can get in alot of practice with 38 Special rounds, and I assure you there is no recoil there. 38 Special ammo is about as cheap as you can get. And the 357 magnum is a very effective cartridge in a rifle for deer. A good 158 grain cast bullet is deadly, and recoil will be very manageable.
The last thing to think about for kids is muzzle blast. Personally I believe kids are more afraid of muzzle blast than they are recoil. So a good long 28" barrel in an Encore will improve cartridge performance, while lowering muzzle blast and recoil. As well s reducing muzzle blast(and flip) to the youngin. And still not too long to carry because it is a break action.
My girlfriend has a 30 Carbine in an Encore that I reload for her. And you do not want to be within 100 yards of her and her rifle. She is deadly, and I cast a great deer killing bullet for that cartridge. And it is very effective on deer. Tom.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
I lean towards a .243, personally. .22*anything* isn't legal for use on game where I live, and a .243 is nice on the shoulder.
I'd consider a semi-auto (AR with the telescoping stock or a Mini-30), but you've specified a bolt. In that case, a recoil pad might be a good idea. Some youngsters don't have a high pain tolerance.
I lean towards a .243, personally. .22*anything* isn't legal for use on game where I live, and a .243 is nice on the shoulder.
I'd consider a semi-auto (AR with the telescoping stock or a Mini-30), but you've specified a bolt. In that case, a recoil pad might be a good idea. Some youngsters don't have a high pain tolerance.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
243 is a great round. Low recoil and plenty of power. But the smaller 223 and 22-250 rounds will take deer as well. Killed my first buck with a 22-250 from about 200 yards. He took the round, ran about 20 feet and fell over.
243 is a great round. Low recoil and plenty of power. But the smaller 223 and 22-250 rounds will take deer as well. Killed my first buck with a 22-250 from about 200 yards. He took the round, ran about 20 feet and fell over.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
Started a few kids on a Win.30-30 because that is what we had.But I believe a hammer gun is not a good choice.A hammer gun is dangerous in small hands.I know from experiance.A old fallace round nose bullets for brush is all wrong.NRA tested bullets years ago and found round nose bullets deflect more than spitzers.I would go with a .243.With a change of stocks it will do all your life for killing deer sized game.The deer don't get any tougher when you are an adult.My 2 cents.
Started a few kids on a Win.30-30 because that is what we had.But I believe a hammer gun is not a good choice.A hammer gun is dangerous in small hands.I know from experiance.A old fallace round nose bullets for brush is all wrong.NRA tested bullets years ago and found round nose bullets deflect more than spitzers.I would go with a .243.With a change of stocks it will do all your life for killing deer sized game.The deer don't get any tougher when you are an adult.My 2 cents.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I plan to see how the .280/139SST concoction works this year, with the .44Mag and the above as fallbacks.
Greg </div></div>
I can tell you from experience, loaded fast or slow, it's like a quarter stick of TNT on impact. I'm a meat hunter and quit using that combination after I was losing hams and loins from behind the shoulder shots. The shock trauma on those things are unreal. Never had a runner, but blood shot a lot of meat while I was using them. They should be considered varmint loads for their destructive capabilities. I went back to Core-Lokts, Interlocks, and SGK's and reduced to a 7mm08 to try and save some meat, LOL. I was getting entry wounds up to 4" in diameter with jacket seperation from the core with minimum recommended loadings of RL-19 at distances of 25yds to 100yds.
To the OP, No less than a mild recoiling 243 with deer quality ammo, not varmint ammo. I personally like my Model 7 in 7mm08 with 140'ish soft points. My buddies kids don't mind it either.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I plan to see how the .280/139SST concoction works this year, with the .44Mag and the above as fallbacks.
Greg </div></div>
I can tell you from experience, loaded fast or slow, it's like a quarter stick of TNT on impact. I'm a meat hunter and quit using that combination after I was losing hams and loins from behind the shoulder shots. The shock trauma on those things are unreal. Never had a runner, but blood shot a lot of meat while I was using them. They should be considered varmint loads for their destructive capabilities. I went back to Core-Lokts, Interlocks, and SGK's and reduced to a 7mm08 to try and save some meat, LOL. I was getting entry wounds up to 4" in diameter with jacket seperation from the core with minimum recommended loadings of RL-19 at distances of 25yds to 100yds.
To the OP, No less than a mild recoiling 243 with deer quality ammo, not varmint ammo. I personally like my Model 7 in 7mm08 with 140'ish soft points. My buddies kids don't mind it either.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jaybird39</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Started a few kids on a Win.30-30 because that is what we had.But I believe a hammer gun is not a good choice.A hammer gun is dangerous in small hands.I know from experiance.A old fallace round nose bullets for brush is all wrong.NRA tested bullets years ago and found round nose bullets deflect more than spitzers.I would go with a .243.With a change of stocks it will do all your life for killing deer sized game.The deer don't get any tougher when you are an adult.My 2 cents. </div></div>
Care to elaborate why a hammer would be dangerous for a child? On my marlin you cannot release the hammer after the first click after just barley pulling back. The hammer will not strike the pin until it is fully cocked back and locked (then you must pull the trigger with safety off). Plus you don't cock the gun with it pointed to you. If they are hunting I'm sure they are taught about Gun safety, also children that hunt usually have more respect for firearms. If your deer hunting you are more than likely using a round that is soft and going to mushroom (expand) when it hits something hard,meaning its going to flatten like every other round when hitting something hard. A 30-30 round used for deer hunting is no more likely to ricochet than any other common deer hunting round. Hornaday also makes a flex tip round that is pointed, thus giving a greater BC, which you can use in a lever action. Its the lever evolution bullet.
C&P
Flex Tip Technology that is SAFE in your tubular magazine. Its higher ballistic coefficient delivers dramatically flatter trajectories for fantastic downrange energy increases and amazing bullet expansion at all ranges.Up to 250 feet per second faster muzzle velocity than conventional lever gun loads.Up to 40% more energy than traditional flat point loads.Exceptional accuracy and overwhelming downrange terminal performance.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jaybird39</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Started a few kids on a Win.30-30 because that is what we had.But I believe a hammer gun is not a good choice.A hammer gun is dangerous in small hands.I know from experiance.A old fallace round nose bullets for brush is all wrong.NRA tested bullets years ago and found round nose bullets deflect more than spitzers.I would go with a .243.With a change of stocks it will do all your life for killing deer sized game.The deer don't get any tougher when you are an adult.My 2 cents. </div></div>
Care to elaborate why a hammer would be dangerous for a child? On my marlin you cannot release the hammer after the first click after just barley pulling back. The hammer will not strike the pin until it is fully cocked back and locked (then you must pull the trigger with safety off). Plus you don't cock the gun with it pointed to you. If they are hunting I'm sure they are taught about Gun safety, also children that hunt usually have more respect for firearms. If your deer hunting you are more than likely using a round that is soft and going to mushroom (expand) when it hits something hard,meaning its going to flatten like every other round when hitting something hard. A 30-30 round used for deer hunting is no more likely to ricochet than any other common deer hunting round. Hornaday also makes a flex tip round that is pointed, thus giving a greater BC, which you can use in a lever action. Its the lever evolution bullet.
C&P
Flex Tip Technology that is SAFE in your tubular magazine. Its higher ballistic coefficient delivers dramatically flatter trajectories for fantastic downrange energy increases and amazing bullet expansion at all ranges.Up to 250 feet per second faster muzzle velocity than conventional lever gun loads.Up to 40% more energy than traditional flat point loads.Exceptional accuracy and overwhelming downrange terminal performance.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
The kids I tought to shoot,6 of them were taught gun safty from an early age and new it well.We had a 94 go off once.Lucky it was pointed at the ground.Never did find out how the hammer got back.For small hands I think a safty is easier and safer to use than a hammer.
The kids I tought to shoot,6 of them were taught gun safty from an early age and new it well.We had a 94 go off once.Lucky it was pointed at the ground.Never did find out how the hammer got back.For small hands I think a safty is easier and safer to use than a hammer.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
+ 1 on the break-open single shot--would rec 243
+ 1 on the break-open single shot--would rec 243
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
The New England firearms single shot in .243 would be my pick. Several reasons. It is more accurate and better made than the Brazil product. An extra barrel will allow him in Mississippi to hunt with the same rifle during primitive weapon season...use a .44 Mag barrel. The butt stock can be easily replaced...get the wooden stock and you can slice it in a table saw or band saw into 1 inch shorter increments until it fits him now...and add the increments back as he grows. I think they make a .357 barrel...that with .38 Special wadcutters would be a fine trainer before going into the woods. He can also then train with a low power scope and iron sights using the same platform. JMHO
The New England firearms single shot in .243 would be my pick. Several reasons. It is more accurate and better made than the Brazil product. An extra barrel will allow him in Mississippi to hunt with the same rifle during primitive weapon season...use a .44 Mag barrel. The butt stock can be easily replaced...get the wooden stock and you can slice it in a table saw or band saw into 1 inch shorter increments until it fits him now...and add the increments back as he grows. I think they make a .357 barrel...that with .38 Special wadcutters would be a fine trainer before going into the woods. He can also then train with a low power scope and iron sights using the same platform. JMHO
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
ARCOREY;
Thanks for the heads-up on the .280/139SST. I will reserve that for Coyotes, etc; and revert to my more typical lightweight M70 .30'06/150Core-Lokts.
My Son-In-Law has the family heirloom M77 .30'-'06 and practically worships at its feet. I have him set up with 150gr Core-Lokts as well.
My Granddaughter looks to get her license this year, and I may start her with a .30-'06 with 125 Core-Lokt Managed Recoil, or let her play with the 94AE .44Mag/180gr UMC JSP's, or maybe the Mossie 20ga Rifled bolt gun and SST Sabots.
Greg
ARCOREY;
Thanks for the heads-up on the .280/139SST. I will reserve that for Coyotes, etc; and revert to my more typical lightweight M70 .30'06/150Core-Lokts.
My Son-In-Law has the family heirloom M77 .30'-'06 and practically worships at its feet. I have him set up with 150gr Core-Lokts as well.
My Granddaughter looks to get her license this year, and I may start her with a .30-'06 with 125 Core-Lokt Managed Recoil, or let her play with the 94AE .44Mag/180gr UMC JSP's, or maybe the Mossie 20ga Rifled bolt gun and SST Sabots.
Greg
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
In 2007 I saw a huge bull elk killed by a little woman with a baby. She used a 243.
In 2008 I heard about a G.I. in Iraq's 12 year old daughter back in the states that wanted a rifle. I built, pro bono, a 243 for her on a 1903 Mauser action. The rifle was too heavy. So I built a feather weight 243 on a 1903 Mauser action for her. I got it down to 8 pounds with the sling, scope, and ammo. It is a 2moa rifle, that is terrible for a 243, but ok for 8 pounds with scope.
That took every night after work for 2 months.
When they passed through the Seattle - Tacoma air port, the father and daughter stopped and picked up the rifle, and I got to meet them.
The girl looked more like 15 years old than 12 years old, and carried that 8 pounds around like it didn't weigh anything.
In 2007 I saw a huge bull elk killed by a little woman with a baby. She used a 243.
In 2008 I heard about a G.I. in Iraq's 12 year old daughter back in the states that wanted a rifle. I built, pro bono, a 243 for her on a 1903 Mauser action. The rifle was too heavy. So I built a feather weight 243 on a 1903 Mauser action for her. I got it down to 8 pounds with the sling, scope, and ammo. It is a 2moa rifle, that is terrible for a 243, but ok for 8 pounds with scope.
That took every night after work for 2 months.
When they passed through the Seattle - Tacoma air port, the father and daughter stopped and picked up the rifle, and I got to meet them.
The girl looked more like 15 years old than 12 years old, and carried that 8 pounds around like it didn't weigh anything.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
7mm-08, 250 sav, 257 bob, all similar in recoil and performance to .243
.243 will be easier to find shells for
7mm-08, 250 sav, 257 bob, all similar in recoil and performance to .243
.243 will be easier to find shells for
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSP446</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I started my deer hunting career out with a Marlin 336 .30-30 and killed alot of deer with it. A few years later I upgraded to a Rem 700 in .243 and loved it! It did everything I wanted it to do as far as killing deer! A couple years later I thought I needed a "bigger gun" so I purchased a Ruger Mk77 .300 Win Mag. It didn't take long to realize that the .243 killed the deer just as dead, just as fast and was much easier on my shoulder and my dad's wallet when purchasing ammo! LOL. If I were gonna buy a deer rifle for a kid today, it would be a .243 hands down. I know the 7mm-08 is a great round, I've taken deer with it too, and I'm sure the .260 is great also. However, you said that your friend isn't and won't be a reloader and I think that in a pinch ammo for the .243 would be easier to find and a better selection available at places like Wal-Mart than for the other two calibers. Just my opinion.</div></div>
Well said on the 243. My uncle walks out his back door every deer season and takes a deer with the 243 and puts it in the freezer. It's hard to knock a 243 /6mm bullet with low recoil, great accuracy and very easy to find at the stores.
Another note: I wouldn't just try to find the caliber you want in only the model 7. Look for the youth model 700's, the Remington Titaniums in the smaller calibers, the Kimber 8400's in smaller calibers and many more options I am not even mentioning.
I like other calibers as well but the 243 is going to be hard to top because of so many reasons.
.......SmokeRolls
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSP446</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I started my deer hunting career out with a Marlin 336 .30-30 and killed alot of deer with it. A few years later I upgraded to a Rem 700 in .243 and loved it! It did everything I wanted it to do as far as killing deer! A couple years later I thought I needed a "bigger gun" so I purchased a Ruger Mk77 .300 Win Mag. It didn't take long to realize that the .243 killed the deer just as dead, just as fast and was much easier on my shoulder and my dad's wallet when purchasing ammo! LOL. If I were gonna buy a deer rifle for a kid today, it would be a .243 hands down. I know the 7mm-08 is a great round, I've taken deer with it too, and I'm sure the .260 is great also. However, you said that your friend isn't and won't be a reloader and I think that in a pinch ammo for the .243 would be easier to find and a better selection available at places like Wal-Mart than for the other two calibers. Just my opinion.</div></div>
Well said on the 243. My uncle walks out his back door every deer season and takes a deer with the 243 and puts it in the freezer. It's hard to knock a 243 /6mm bullet with low recoil, great accuracy and very easy to find at the stores.
Another note: I wouldn't just try to find the caliber you want in only the model 7. Look for the youth model 700's, the Remington Titaniums in the smaller calibers, the Kimber 8400's in smaller calibers and many more options I am not even mentioning.
I like other calibers as well but the 243 is going to be hard to top because of so many reasons.
.......SmokeRolls
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
The price of a savage/stevens these days is crazy low. Not going to win any beauty contests with em, but they do shoot pretty good.
The price of a savage/stevens these days is crazy low. Not going to win any beauty contests with em, but they do shoot pretty good.
Re: Deer Capable Caliber for a Small Child
Non reloader and only a Model 7? 243 seems like the smart choice. It passes the wal-mart ammo test.
If you're considering something other than a Mod 7, I really like the feel of my new Featherweight Mod 70.
Non reloader and only a Model 7? 243 seems like the smart choice. It passes the wal-mart ammo test.
If you're considering something other than a Mod 7, I really like the feel of my new Featherweight Mod 70.
