Defiance tenacity custom actions?

jcmullis2

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I’ve been shopping for a custom action and hoping to keep my cost below $1k. While researching the different actions available the Defiance name frequently came up. A video I watched mentioned a several month wait time for manufacturing some of their models. I really like the look and price of defiance tenacity and it’s on the top of my list. The Defiance person posted something indicating that their Tenacity didn’t have any wait time because they didn’t offer any options with the tenacity other than short, long, and magnum. I’m thinking GREAT that’s the one I’ll buy. The defiance rep continued on explaining, nearly bragging, that defiance had just received several new machines and that allowed them to produce actions fast enough for them to maintain a large enough inventory for immediate shipment . Stop! (record scratch noise) WTF! Did he just tell me that they are selling mass produced rifle actions based off the Remington 700 design as a custom action for the small price of only $900.? Yep that’s what the man said.
I know there’s mass produced and then there’s MASS PRODUCED but wouldn’t they all suffer to a lesser or greater degree when compared to a real custom action? If that truly is the case, and I can’t imagine it isn’t, wouldn’t a person be better off with a blueprinted action? I don’t know, so what’s y’all’s thoughts?
Now I’m back to researching custom actions and trying to get my head wrapped around this mass produced custom action shit.
I would appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this. I’d like to hear what tenacity owners think about their actions. If there’s some with a tenacity and a different defiance action that can tell us about the difference in quality of workmanship I need to hear it. I’d really like to hear from any machinist out there that own or have evaluated the specs of any defiance tenacity actions.
 

Dthomas3523

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Logic is faulty at best.

What they told you is they took the process that made you want one and multiplied all parts necessary to make them, thus making more. This increases the amount of actions, but keeps the quality the same.

Your logic fits only if they took the current amount of machines/resources and increased production numbers, therefore decreasing the time/quality spent on each action.
 

jcmullis2

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Like I said. They look good and it’s the action I liked most for the money. I don’t know what the true quality of the tenacity is. Only way to know for certain is to measure it. I do know that quality is the first thing to suffer, especially when you have multiple people running multiple machines. That’s why I want to hear from tenacity owners and especially tenacity owners that are machinists that checked the measurements. I was just expressed my concerns. If you can’t understand why I have concerns that’s okay. Feel free to throw a grand at one yourself. I like to know what I’m getting for my money. I’d rather put a few more hundred with it and get a real custom action before buying a pig in a poke. Just saying
 
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Dthomas3523

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Like I said. They look good and it’s the action I liked most for the money. I don’t know what the true quality of the tenacity is. Only way to know for certain is to measure it. I do know that quality is the first thing to suffer, especially when you have multiple people running multiple machines. That’s why I want to hear from tenacity owners and especially tenacity owners that are machinists that checked the measurements. I was just expressed my concerns. If you can’t understand why I have concerns that’s okay. Feel free to throw a grand at one yourself. I like to know what I’m getting for my money. I’d rather put a few more hundred with it and get a real custom action before buying a pig in a poke. Just saying
Dude, it’s made the exact same way every other “real custom action” is made.
 

reubenski

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It's common these days for custom action manufacturers to offer a zero-option configuration on a product to streamline processes, which helps production increase and minimize cost. Zermatt did the same thing on the Origin when it came out. I think it has to do more with increasing the efficiency of the work flow in their shop and reducing the stop-and-go logistics of custom orders as they're waiting for heat-treat, coatings, tooling changes to cut that one right bolt, left port, etc.

Your assumption is that on one side of the shop is a little old man with a monucule, slowly honing a raceway on an action that he will have painstakingly tuned later this summer, while on the other side of the shop a bunch of former Walmart employees are haphazardly slapping raw stock in a machine in a ass-whipping-mad frenzy, QC'ing in between stages with a wooden ruler and dumping finished parts in a filthy 5 gallon bucket until their mandatory 10 minute break where half of them go out behind the dumpsters to burn a spliff while the other half sit in thier cars so they can scream to their divorce lawyers in privacy . I don't think this is the case.

Buy a Tenacity with confidence. Or a Zermatt Origin.
 

reubenski

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Here's another thought @jcmullis2 The reason you're getting semi-negative responses is that most guys around here understand that Defiance is not offering a mass-produced, lower-value product and the fact that this is your assertion based on a first impression belies your familiarity with this industry. Which is fine, you don't have to be an enthusiast-expert but for self-awareness you're perceived as a newb so the more you try to stick to your first mistaken impression while guys try to tell you otherwise folks are going to lose patience with you. Everyone was new on this site once. Just ease into it.
 

Harman117

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I’ve been shopping for a custom action and hoping to keep my cost below $1k. While researching the different actions available the Defiance name frequently came up. A video I watched mentioned a several month wait time for manufacturing some of their models. I really like the look and price of defiance tenacity and it’s on the top of my list. The Defiance person posted something indicating that their Tenacity didn’t have any wait time because they didn’t offer any options with the tenacity other than short, long, and magnum. I’m thinking GREAT that’s the one I’ll buy. The defiance rep continued on explaining, nearly bragging, that defiance had just received several new machines and that allowed them to produce actions fast enough for them to maintain a large enough inventory for immediate shipment . Stop! (record scratch noise) WTF! Did he just tell me that they are selling mass produced rifle actions based off the Remington 700 design as a custom action for the small price of only $900.? Yep that’s what the man said.
I know there’s mass produced and then there’s MASS PRODUCED but wouldn’t they all suffer to a lesser or greater degree when compared to a real custom action? If that truly is the case, and I can’t imagine it isn’t, wouldn’t a person be better off with a blueprinted action? I don’t know, so what’s y’all’s thoughts?
Now I’m back to researching custom actions and trying to get my head wrapped around this mass produced custom action shit.
I would appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this. I’d like to hear what tenacity owners think about their actions. If there’s some with a tenacity and a different defiance action that can tell us about the difference in quality of workmanship I need to hear it. I’d really like to hear from any machinist out there that own or have evaluated the specs of any defiance tenacity actions.
You have nothing to worry about. In fact you, you could make the argument that the Tenacity is better than ever because they're holding consistent head space now for prefits now.

Seems like you're romanticizing custom actions. Having more CNC machines and increasing production is not going to directly decrease quality.

You need to understand the majority of custom actions incorporate the same manufacturing process. Overall automation is a good thing.
 
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jcmullis2

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To have concerns and ask questions isn’t a bad thing. It’s part of the due diligence thing. Lots of folks telling me I’m wrong for even thinking that quality could suffer is funny. I’ve not heard one person say my tenacity is great or from a machinist that everything is within .001 of specs. Thats fine and I won’t be surprised when I do. Defiance has a great name and they got it making awesome shit. That’s why I was wanting one of their actions. I choose to ask questions and don’t by simply because of name recognition. I won’t be using a name to make my rig I’ll be using an action and I want one that’s as good as any other custom action. I don’t have thin skin so keep it coming I asked for y’all’s thoughts and even though I don’t agree with some doesn’t mean they don’t have value. Thanks everyone.
 
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jcmullis2

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You made a silly leap of logic. This has been pointed out several times. Now you won’t let it go. When it says same materials and tolerances, do you think they’re lying to you?
A silly leap would be to buy one without asking for the opinion of others. Especially the opinion of others who own a tenacity and/or are machinists who have measured one.
I’ve said several times I like the tenacity. I’m in the final phase of my selection process. For all of us that don’t own a tenacity we only know what we’ve read. The things that I’ve seen thus far that belay my concern are the defiance guarantee and that defiance is a relatively small outfit. It’s doubtful they would risk their hard earned well deserved sterling reputation with a poorly made product. However shit does happen. Thats why they’re willing to correct any problem free of charge. Maybe a actual owner of one will comment at some point.
 

swampbuck

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I have a Tenacity. Or a GAP Gladius which is a rebranded Tenacity. I would put it up against any custom out there. It looks and functions great. I don't have a lot of customs to compare it too but it hangs with my Stiller and Surgeon just fine.
 

cageli

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I think your expectation may be out of alignment for tenacity owners (or any action owners). Almost nobody measure their actions, because first it requires special tools and set up that may cost 10 times as the action itself, and you do have to have a good understanding of how this thing should be measured. Set of calipers are not going to work. I have 7 premium/ custom rifles and I absolutely don’t measure them. As long as they are functional and shoots great, I don’t care if they are twisted like my dick. Yes I do have a tenacity and it works well for me, but I won’t be able to tell you if they are within 0.001” or not. Also based on your input, my recommendation is to buy a tactical action from Bat, as their stuff is supposed to have the tightest tolerance as they dominate benchrest world.
 

Supersubes

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A silly leap would be to buy one without asking for the opinion of others. Especially the opinion of others who own a tenacity and/or are machinists who have measured one.
I’ve said several times I like the tenacity. I’m in the final phase of my selection process. For all of us that don’t own a tenacity we only know what we’ve read. The things that I’ve seen thus far that belay my concern are the defiance guarantee and that defiance is a relatively small outfit. It’s doubtful they would risk their hard earned well deserved sterling reputation with a poorly made product. However shit does happen. Thats why they’re willing to correct any problem free of charge. Maybe a actual owner of one will comment at some point.
No, you equated adding machines for more capacity to “mass produced” “Remington design”(ohhhh bad!) factory actions. Have you noticed they’re all Remington designed actions virtually? It’s an easy concept that’s already been pointed out here, but defiance simplified the production by taking away a long list of options, and added capacity. This allowed them to price the action with their competitors. Have you noticed the popularity of the Zermatt Origin action? Have you noticed it’s actually cheaper than the Tenacity?

But pointing all of this out to you is not enough. You need one stranger who owns one to chime in and say it’s cool, and then you’ll be good.
 

FatBoy

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You guys are beating the OP up pretty good. If this is his first custom action, cut him some slack. Most of us are used to dumping many thousands of dollars into a project but I dare say few of us started out that way.

OP,

Let it go. Nobody can answer if you're going to be happy with it. You really want to ensure you like the build, go off your gunsmiths recommendations. They like certain parts for a reason.

Best of luck on your build.


Chris
 

Edds

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I have two Defiance actions in my possession, one on order, and I intend to order another one next week. None of them are the Tenacity model, not because a Tenacity is of lesser quality but because I like some features that are only available on other models. If the tenacity has all the features you want, whats the problem?
 
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XTREM HTR16

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I have 4 Defiance actions in my possession, they are all branded with the GA Precision name so they are the GAP Templar which is the Rebel. Not a lick wrong with them, Haven’t had a single bit of trouble. As stated, the Tenacity is basically the same as the Rebel minus a few options. So I’d buy with confidence, in fact I have a couple Ruckus actions on the way now for future hunting rigs.
 
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jcmullis2

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You guys are beating the OP up pretty good. If this is his first custom action, cut him some slack. Most of us are used to dumping many thousands of dollars into a project but I dare say few of us started out that way.

OP,

Let it go. Nobody can answer if you're going to be happy with it. You really want to ensure you like the build, go off your gunsmiths recommendations. They like certain parts for a reason.

Best of luck on your build.


Chris
I appreciate the kind words and insight. This will be my first build using a custom action. After years of wondering if those lone fliers were my fault or my equipment I decided to get a custom action. I’m a paper puncher that’s all. A entry level no frills custom action should do just fine. What I’ve learned here is defiance is held in high regard. Like I said before I really doubt they would jeopardize their reputation for $900. I’m gonna call them and make sure I don’t need an action with an option that’s not on their tenacity. With this being my first one I might have missed something. Otherwise the tenacity wins out. Hopefully it’ll be as good as I hope and everyone says. If there’s a problem the defiance guarantee should remedy any deficiencies.
I appreciate everyone’s input. Like I said, just because I might not have liked what some had to say or how it was said didn’t mean there thoughts weren’t of value. Group think is always better than just one person’s thoughts. Thanks to you and everyone that took time to comment.
 

FatBoy

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Only option I look for these days is a small firing pin. (Unless I'm building a tubegun) All the mainline players have gotten so damn good, the bullshit you saw 15 years ago really doesn't happen anymore.

I would say that when you call them ask them what triggers they use or recommend. If you have an issue this is most likely going to be the root cause. Anything else your riflesmith will either fix to his standard or let you know it's a lemon and send it back.
Not all sear lengths/cocking interfaces are the same. Far from it. If you don't get enough cocking pin distance it'll drive you bat shit trying to figure out why you are having misfires or inconsistent SDs. Too much and you have heavy bolt closure. Personally, I err on the side of a little too much of I can't get it exactly in spec with my trigger of choice. I want it to go bang every time.
 
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txguero

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I have a tenacity. No measurements taken but if it makes you feel better, it is WORLDS better than a R700 in so many ways, blueprinted or not. Buy one and you will understand. For a similar price I also really like my Zermatt origin.
 
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jcmullis2

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Area 419 bought out defiance’s stock of the last generation of tenacity actions selling them for$775. Had Mile High slap something together in 223AI.
Thanks for the heads up on that. I just looked on the a419 site. Damn good deal. I wish I’d caught it before they ran out of the stainless short action right hand, standard bolt, guardian cut. I’ll just have to order from defiance. It would have been nice to save a little bit but not a problem as I didn’t know about the discount until minutes ago. Thanks for trying