My question for those who are knowledgeable about wind is if you were going to dial in some wind on your windage turret, how do you go about determining how much wind you would dial?
Dialing wind Question
- Thread starter Virginia Shooter
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First, most don’t dial wind they use hold over marks on the reticle. Wind changes so quickly by the time you dial it way have changed direction and/or velocity.
Your question will open a can of worms on here. It’s a complicated answer. There’s a lot of variables.
This guy has a lot of free informative vids on shooting and using a scope properly.
Your question will open a can of worms on here. It’s a complicated answer. There’s a lot of variables.
This guy has a lot of free informative vids on shooting and using a scope properly.
Same way you figure how much you would hold. You have to make an informed guess on the wind speed and direction not just at your location but down range. Then use your ballistic program to give you a number to dial or hold. As mentioned most will hold the wind but some do dial and initial wind call and then make an adjustment with a hold if it’s off.
Always remember to dial it off after you shoot though as you will mess up the next shot at a different stage or location with the old wind call.
Measure wind speed and direction, look at mirage to validate, talk with other shooters in the squad that know what they’re doing. If you’ve already shot a stage and you know what you needed for wind hold, start with whatever MPH that was. I used to be a never dial wind guy, but I started doing it more this last year. I’ve seen quite a few more people dialing wind recently. Especially on stages with one target engagement. I think it’s more precise to put the center of the reticle on the target than hold windage.
^^^^True, but worrying about wind downrange is not something I'd tell a beginner. The wind where the shot is taken is acting on the bullet as soon as it leaves the muzzle, so it has the greatest effect on trajectory. Don't worry about wind down range till you have wind the wind at the point of the shot down pat. Simple is better when you start shooting.
If you shoot out west in 40+mph wind at distant targets sometimes you have to dial.
For me the only times I dial wind is if it's a strong consistent wind, and even then I don't dial it perfectly. For example I might dial a MIL in certain conditions (left or right) but I hold from there. Please note that I don't do that every time but it's something I am experimenting with. Usually I do that if it's consistent relatively strong wind.
If it's just gusty, zero now, but 5-10, then back to zero...no dial.
As far as how much windage to apply it depends on the caliber, the distance, the wind direction, and the wind speed. Lots of other factors too depending on what you are doing. Wind direction is probably the most important factor for general discussion purposes.
There is a whole science behind figuring out the wind. You can get lots of good clues here on the forum but it is really a huge subject that can get way complicated if you let it.
In other words if you are shooting a 50BMG at 200 yards with a 5mph direct cross wind, you probably don't need to worry about it so much. If you are shooting a 22LR at 400yards though, you need to figure it out pretty quickly.
How complicated the answers are get increasingly complicated the farther away the target is.
How complicated the answers are get increasingly complicated the farther away the target is.
I hesitate to dial wind because then my wind adjustment on the clock has no direct x.x mil connection to the actual wind, because I’m adjusting off an already dialed value. If I’m thinking I need to hold 0.8 left, but already dialed 0.3 then my wind adjustment value as I move through the stage and target list doesn’t line up with 5 or 10 or 15 kmh. It gets really complicated when there is a significant pan from the left target to the right and do a corresponding change in wind direction affecting that bullet.
So let's say that you have 2 distances like maybe a barricade stage (400 and 500). A full value wind from the left at 8-12mph. My 400 wind hold is .6 to .9 left and at 500 is .8 to 1.1 left. Would you dial .6 left in the windage turret and then only need hold with the turret .3 for the higher wind at 400 and .2 and .5 at 500? The plates are .5 and .4 wide so they will absorb .2 tenths of error.
Yeah that’s a way you can do it. That’s not a lot of wind so you could just hold it all. Either way just know where you are starting and where you want to be when you take the shot and then correct accordingly.
You have to pick a single number that you believe is correct. You need to be aware of the high and low but the average is generally what I am going to start with. Let's say in this example the average is 10mph. I am going to dial .8 on the gun for the 400 yd target and then hold +.2 for the 500 yd target. If I see the from the first impact that I only needed .7 then I am going to correct that on the dial and hold .2 for the far target.
I do not recommend going half way on dialing. It generally defeats the purpose (exception is where wind holds get very large). If you are going to dial, dial the full value. Dialing makes sense when there is only one target distance or a situation like your example where the wind hold from target 1 to target 2 is relatively small.
And never forget mid stage what you chose to do. Most of this stuff is more of a mental exercise than a shooting one.
Yeah tons of mental work comes into this as you need to know the plan and stick to it after the buzzer goes off. Being able to think on the clock is a tough skill to learn.
I personally always just hold for wind. I know a lot of people who may dial like .1 or .2 if they know it's a favored wind just so they can center the reticle and a few more that will dial .5 or .6 but I've never liked it. Nothing worse than dialing for wind only to find out you dialed too much and then to correct it, you have to do the opposite by taking wind out, by adding it. I hope I said that right and it made sense.
My club most times tends to have some sort of mild switchy headwind/tailwind… and when in situations like that, where it can be like .5-.6 either way, I just hold for wind using the reticle.
But over the last year or so, if there’s a pronounced crosswind and I’m sure which direction the wind is coming from, I’ve become a fan of dialing some wind in the gun.
Like has been mentioned, I pick a number and just commit to what I feel is my best guess at the average. During a stage I still make corrections to my hold using the reticle, and rarely touch the windage turret on the clock, but being in the ballpark and having holds more centered up near the center of the reticle does seem to make things easier.
But over the last year or so, if there’s a pronounced crosswind and I’m sure which direction the wind is coming from, I’ve become a fan of dialing some wind in the gun.
Like has been mentioned, I pick a number and just commit to what I feel is my best guess at the average. During a stage I still make corrections to my hold using the reticle, and rarely touch the windage turret on the clock, but being in the ballpark and having holds more centered up near the center of the reticle does seem to make things easier.
If you don't understand how or why someone dials for wind then don't worry about it. When you figure it out you can then try it. It's one of those things that should be ignored unless you are shooting a mover IMO until you become a higher level shooter. The added complication will fuck you hard and cost you more points in the long run.
dialing wind on a mover makes it so the lead is the same in both directions
I dial nowadays a lot than I used to. Dial vs holding is really dependent on the stage and conditions; being good at both is needed.
In most cases there is no reason not dial in a prone troop line scenario. You have all the time in the world to get it done. Though that might be easier said now that I have some time doing in the game.
I will say it is much easier to forget how much your holding than what you have dialed, as what you have dialed is what you have dialed and you can look at it your windage if you forget, but with holding wind you can get lost in the sauce and forget what you just held. That being said dialing the wrong way between shots can happen if you aren’t careful.
Sometimes I dial what I need for the first target and hold for the rest, sometimes I dial for all and sometimes I hold for all. It really just depends on the stage and the conditions.
At box canyon this year the most I have dialed was 4.2 mils and both impacted.
Hope that helps, but the answer here is “it depends” and “practice both”.
Jon
In most cases there is no reason not dial in a prone troop line scenario. You have all the time in the world to get it done. Though that might be easier said now that I have some time doing in the game.
I will say it is much easier to forget how much your holding than what you have dialed, as what you have dialed is what you have dialed and you can look at it your windage if you forget, but with holding wind you can get lost in the sauce and forget what you just held. That being said dialing the wrong way between shots can happen if you aren’t careful.
Sometimes I dial what I need for the first target and hold for the rest, sometimes I dial for all and sometimes I hold for all. It really just depends on the stage and the conditions.
At box canyon this year the most I have dialed was 4.2 mils and both impacted.
Hope that helps, but the answer here is “it depends” and “practice both”.
Jon
Good points. That was sort of my idea - dial for the 1st target and then hold for the rest. I don't see impacts as well as I move away from the center of the reticle.
The best shooters generally dial wind, it is all an educated guess on the first target....then you dial in the correction to center. This is the importance of having wind brackets. You then use your trued measurement to reference that wind bracket and continue the course of fire adjusting as needed. Pretty simple stuff once you practice it. That being said, i generally do not dial wind past the first target unless there is an extreme change in target location. (big pan)
If you are dialing wind on the clock you are doing it wrong. Dialing the best guess before the stage is fine but holds are the way after the buzzer.
Ask them or go to a JTAC class. In the video above, he dials on the clock. They will bang that into your head.
lol well then all the power to them. I wouldn’t advise that to anyone let alone a new shooter. Way too much wasted time, especially for a newer shooter, in having to come off the rifle to see the windage knob and adjust it then get back on the rifle and on target when all you needed to do was a small shift in the reticle.
I can confirm, they dial on the clock
or the Austin's do, ive seen both of them do it in person
its not every target or every stage, but it does happen
So how do they adjust their wind on the other stages?
I am sure the stages they do are easier to do it on with either less movement/targets where you have the time to spare. And as I said being left handed makes it easier as you can see the windage knob while on the rifle like a right handed shooter can see the parallax.
Saying that a person is doing it wrong if they dial is making a broad generalization despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. Just because it’s a way that you’re not comfortable with doesn’t make it wrong.
So how do they adjust their wind on the other stages?
I am sure the stages they do are easier to do it on with either less movement/targets where you have the time to spare. And as I said being left handed makes it easier as you can see the windage knob while on the rifle like a right handed shooter can see the parallax.
last time I shot with Bushman, if dialing kept him on plate, he did it.
if the wind was switching back and forth, he would leave it at zero
trying to remember exactly what he did for the troop line stage,
im pretty sure he dialed wind on every target
If there is plenty of time then it can be done. Just like dialing elevation on the clock. Some stages it’s a great way to time out. Dialing wind on the clock is not something I would tell someone to do unless they did have plenty of time, which most new shooters don’t. I would tell them to learn how to use their reticle to make fast corrections as it’s very easy to use but a skill people don’t practice. Same for hold overs or unders. People get spooked when having to use the reticle as they don’t practice it. When they do they see how easy it is to use. Much faster than using their reticle as windage dial and just as accurate.
Great for Bushman, whoever that is, as he obviously can do it. Sounds like he does it on easier stages with enough time. You think the OP could do that? He can try but I doubt it. On the switching winds he must have been holding as wind was still there.
Bushman? he's kind of an ass
- something about being a 2 time world champion or something like that
but seriously, we all asked about why they dial wind, and why they teach dialing wind for new shooters
this was the answer
- most new shooters don't know how to hold properly, and many times forget
- dialing is the dummy proof way to avoid that
so it seems like to the Oklahoma guys, holding is the advanced technique, and dialing is the beginners technique
- after some thought, I would agree
- just like elevation, I would rather someone get proficient at dialing first, before seeing them do hold overs
Fair enough. I don’t hold over or under for anything, elevation or wind, except in a few very limited circumstances. When I have tried it, in practice, I’m less accurate and slower. Having a reticle full of marks/hash/Christmas trees blocks my view of downrange conditions and effects, forces me to run a higher magnification than I’d like, and is way slower (imagine needing to hold 3.7 mils up and 1.3 left, welcome to the west) as I try to sort my way in to the dots. In the same vein, holding the center dot on the target is far more precise for me than trying to hold the 1.3 “space” in the middle.
New shooters should learn a useful technique, from the start. If they did, there would be fewer training scars, fewer midpack shooters timing out in a 2 minute troop line, less frustration, fewer people coming off a stage with no idea what the wind was actually doing, etc.
For my own practice, I go into a stage with each target’s elevation “dope” and the wind “difference” between targets memorized. I dial everything and know without looking what the windage knob is dialed to. It takes practice and I wear a dope card in case I get lost or see something very unexpected downrange. Just not needing to reference a dope chart between every shot makes a 2 minute stage feel like it’s twice as long.
As for when I’ll hold: on the modern skills stage, I usually dial the far target elevation and the near target wind. Hold under in center for the near and hold the reticle dot on the far and the wind additive as a hold. Call me a JTAC disciple.
Likewise if the wind is “on plate” but back and forth. I’ll look at mirage and hold the side of the plate as needed.
New shooters should learn a useful technique, from the start. If they did, there would be fewer training scars, fewer midpack shooters timing out in a 2 minute troop line, less frustration, fewer people coming off a stage with no idea what the wind was actually doing, etc.
For my own practice, I go into a stage with each target’s elevation “dope” and the wind “difference” between targets memorized. I dial everything and know without looking what the windage knob is dialed to. It takes practice and I wear a dope card in case I get lost or see something very unexpected downrange. Just not needing to reference a dope chart between every shot makes a 2 minute stage feel like it’s twice as long.
As for when I’ll hold: on the modern skills stage, I usually dial the far target elevation and the near target wind. Hold under in center for the near and hold the reticle dot on the far and the wind additive as a hold. Call me a JTAC disciple.
Likewise if the wind is “on plate” but back and forth. I’ll look at mirage and hold the side of the plate as needed.
Sorry I don’t know him. lol
Yeah if the beginner doesn’t get frustrated with timing out then they can dial but they will get a better skill level and time management with practicing holding small corrections from a dialed data. The mental game, as we mentioned earlier, is very important and needs practicing as well.
Practicing being able to use the reticle for holds is a very useful skill for new shooter and old shooters alike. People are afraid of it until they actually do it and see the hold is the same as a dial. Especially with the excellent reticles we have today.
If you are at a geissele gas gun match, you won’t be dialing anything on the clock if you want to finish a stage before the par time runs out. I’m sure someone will chime in and say that’s what they do, but I’m talking about us mere mortals.
challenge accepted, lol
I finished most stages at the Vegas QP match dialing
but yeah,
what are we going to talk about next?
USPSA shooters dont dial or aim, depending on who you ask, so we should do that too?
I’m not sure if Buschman being called an ass is a joke or not, I assume it’s a joke. But from personal experience he’s always been nice, funny, and extremely approachable. Probably one of my favorite shooters to shoot with.
I’m going to reiterate dialing vs holding is dependent on both the stage and conditions. Prone troop lines are a perfect scenarios to dial, given winds are not a head or tail winds that can switch back and forth on you.
I’m going to reiterate dialing vs holding is dependent on both the stage and conditions. Prone troop lines are a perfect scenarios to dial, given winds are not a head or tail winds that can switch back and forth on you.
The ultimate goal is straightforward. Put a bullet on target as efficiently as possible within time constraints. This requires correct windage and elevation for each target. How you get there and why is completely shooter and situationally dependent.
Dialing keeps your focus closer to the center of the reticle, but can complicate your data management and one method will be faster than the other. Which is faster depends on the shooter.
Make your wind calls, then decide the most effective and low effort method given your circumstances. Better at holding? Do it. Better at dialing? Do it. Gotta do whatever helps you see the most and fuck up the least.
I will agree with what others have said, generally I recommend holding wind until you gain enough skill to notice where dialing it would be useful. Walk before you run type of deal.
Dialing keeps your focus closer to the center of the reticle, but can complicate your data management and one method will be faster than the other. Which is faster depends on the shooter.
Make your wind calls, then decide the most effective and low effort method given your circumstances. Better at holding? Do it. Better at dialing? Do it. Gotta do whatever helps you see the most and fuck up the least.
I will agree with what others have said, generally I recommend holding wind until you gain enough skill to notice where dialing it would be useful. Walk before you run type of deal.
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