I was reading the berger reloading manual last night and a few sentences made me wonder. It said for target bullets they recommend 4350, but slower powers work better for hunting. What's the reasoning there? The faster powers will warp the bullet?
Different powders for target or hunting?
- Thread starter goodgorilla
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The Rifleman's Journal: Cartridges: The .308 Heavy Bullet Conundrum
This is about 308, but the section about powder burn rate/pressure applies.
In short, its about matching the burn rate, total burn/barrel length, case volume/fill and optimum effective velocity. VLDs work by means of hydrostatic shock and fragment, vs bonding and weight retention. So Velocity is important.
Not sure if Litz still frequents this board, he will have the best answer.
This is about 308, but the section about powder burn rate/pressure applies.
In short, its about matching the burn rate, total burn/barrel length, case volume/fill and optimum effective velocity. VLDs work by means of hydrostatic shock and fragment, vs bonding and weight retention. So Velocity is important.
Not sure if Litz still frequents this board, he will have the best answer.
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That article seems to focus on the type of powder for heavy or lighter bullets. Not target vs hunting bullets. Perhaps the manual wasn't specific enough, and I just realized the sentence didn't say anything about the weight of the bullets other than it was 7mm rem mag. I got the idea to use h4350 because I've read that it was good for target shooting, but I had no clue that h4350 might not be as good for a hunting round for the same grain.
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There are a few more articles of how the vld bullets work, but I can only venture that slower powders (i/e Retumbo, H1000) will give you more velocity, this will in turn extend the range for the VLD to "do what it is supposed to do". The VLD pretty much penetrates and explodes (of sorts) and fragments to cause massive internal damage to vitals. It must be moving at the correct speed to do this. For target accuracy is most important as you are only putting little holes in paper.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/barnes-tests-proves-why-berger-hunting-vlds-are-so-successful/
http://www.bergerbullets.com/barnes-tests-proves-why-berger-hunting-vlds-are-so-successful/
Both target and hunting are VLD. VLD is very low drag, which happens because of the boat tail on the bullets. The only difference between the same grain hunting and target bullet is the hunting bullets fragment more easily on impact. I have read people have had problems with the hunting bullets at near maximum velocity, which I am guessing happens more frequently using faster powders. I think I'll call berger if they have a number.
edit: their tech support que is full, so I am going to have to wait for an email. A woman on the phone told me the target bullets have a thicker jacket, and that's probably why you need to use slower powders than 4350 for the hunting rounds.
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Different powders for target or hunting?
Slower powder does not equal slower velocity. It means the powder reaches peak pressure nano seconds or pico second longer than a faster powder, more burn more gas. Look at the manuals and check the max velocity vs pressure on both. No matter which powder you use the limiting factor is pressure. Various powders hit that max saami pressure at different time. Of course the internal ballistics is far more complicated than this. Point is for any hunting vld to properly fragment it needs to be traveling at the correct velocity. To slow and it will pass right through the animal and just wound it. Too fast and it may explode/ fragment on impact blowing a big hole in a shoulder or other edible meat area. That is why some scoff at vld because the compare it to using varmint bullets on big game. Where traditionally hunters use bonded bullets which retain mass for a large wound channel.
Slower powder does not equal slower velocity. It means the powder reaches peak pressure nano seconds or pico second longer than a faster powder, more burn more gas. Look at the manuals and check the max velocity vs pressure on both. No matter which powder you use the limiting factor is pressure. Various powders hit that max saami pressure at different time. Of course the internal ballistics is far more complicated than this. Point is for any hunting vld to properly fragment it needs to be traveling at the correct velocity. To slow and it will pass right through the animal and just wound it. Too fast and it may explode/ fragment on impact blowing a big hole in a shoulder or other edible meat area. That is why some scoff at vld because the compare it to using varmint bullets on big game. Where traditionally hunters use bonded bullets which retain mass for a large wound channel.
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M
milo 2.0
Guest
Gorilla, I have the Berger manual, and of coarse haven't read it! I had a 6.5x284, first LR rifle, I would alternate buying Berger 130gr vlds, hunting and target. I'd moly them and mix them in a bigger box, I never once noticed an POI change from one to the other. Same thing in my 6BR with 95gr vld's. Though, yes I try to find target bullets, if I can't and I'm in need, I'll buy the hunting ones and run them.
To me I honestly don't get what they're trying to say here? Unless you misread for slower speeds.
To me I honestly don't get what they're trying to say here? Unless you misread for slower speeds.
It didn't say slower speed powders, it said slower burning powders (I think I didn't specify). I didn't look to see what their ending velocities were for the slower burning powders were opposed to the faster burning powders. Anyhow, you would shoot target bullets at animals? I hear the target vld will also fracture, but not as easily due to their thicker jackets. I knew I should have brought the manual with me before talking about it. But I'm pretty sure the manual simply said that 4350 is better for target bullets, and slower burning powders like 4831 and something else were better for hunting bullets.
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M
milo 2.0
Guest
I don't hunt, so for me it's moot point. I do let people shoot big game with my rifles, I switch to hunting bullets for that. If you're questioning my ethics?
No I am not questioning your ethics, I'm just a curious if people do that because I am still a noob at this stuff. I don't know if target bullets are good for animals because I hear the target bullets still fracture. I have a theory that berger target bullets are better for hunting that the nosler accubonds.
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Different powders for target or hunting?
Yes people do. I have used amax as a dual purpose bullet on deer sized game. If you check out the second link you will see that Berger was under criticism for their hunting bullet. Because it fragments vs mushroom. Plenty game has been taken with match type bullets. It's up to you if you decide to work up a seperate load for each purpose. On another note, take a look at the Nosler 168 ABLR. That is one impressive bullet out of a 7mm mag
Yes people do. I have used amax as a dual purpose bullet on deer sized game. If you check out the second link you will see that Berger was under criticism for their hunting bullet. Because it fragments vs mushroom. Plenty game has been taken with match type bullets. It's up to you if you decide to work up a seperate load for each purpose. On another note, take a look at the Nosler 168 ABLR. That is one impressive bullet out of a 7mm mag
Where did you come up with that idea? The accubond is one of the best hunting bullets made. The Berger target bullets aren't recommended for hunting because they don't expand reliably, they have a tendency to pencil through the animal without expanding which leaves a small wound channel resulting in the animal taking a long time to die. Berger made the hunting version with a thinner jacket so the bullet expands better leaving a larger wound channel. I'm still not completely sold on the hunting version.
I've been reading around on bullets the past few months. Most experiences I have read on the accubond were that the bullet passed strait through the animal. I guess hunting with target bullets are out. Anyhow, here is what they Burger manual said about the 2 bullets and powder.
"For hunting loads, slow powders like both 4831's and RE22 and 25 work best. When shooting from the bench, faster powders like the two 4350's can give up some legs for the best accuracy with match grade bullets".
Strangely the H4350 isn't on the 7mm reloading table (168 Grain H4350 55.5 2781 58.8 2921 88.6% ). Looking at the various mentioned powders, the 4350 doesn't have the highest velocity but is the fastest burning. The slower powders have higher velocities but burn slower.
Also I got a response from berger on the subject. The technician said he had been working on the 7mm rem mag for 30 years and the hunting round performed best with the H-4831, Viht N-160, or IMR-7828 SSC. But he said that doesn't mean a different powder would perform better in a different rifle.
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