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Do you believe this target?

Rastoff

Rastoff

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 7, 2013
49
1
So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
150-600-800-measuredsmall_zpsv1mixn8x.gif

It might be a little difficult to read, but here is what we have:
Group 1 - 150 yards, 1.615MOA
Group 2 - 600 yards, 0.16MOA
Group 3 - 800 yards, 0.117MOA

I've been having some trouble with this rifle. It's an LR-308 with an 18" barrel, 1:10 twist. I was having trouble getting good groupings. I contacted the manufacturer and ended up sending it back to them for evaluation. They changed the BCG and muzzle brake and sent me this target as proof that it's shooting good.

I'm a beginning long distance shooter. So, my experience with this is limited. Even so, it seems strange to me that the groups would get smaller the further the target is. Is it common for a person/gun to shoot 1.6MOA groups at 100 yards and then turn around and shoot 0.1MOA groups at 800 yards? Is this target believable?

I'm posting this to learn. This is not intended as a dig or attack on any person or rifle. I just want to know if y'all see this kind of performance in long distance shooting.
 
It looks like a load of shit to me...
I highly, highly doubt they shot the same size groups at 150, 600, and 800 yards...
 
yeah.....no .223 bushmaster is shooting 0.1 MOA groups at 800 yards.......

which is strange, because apparently you sent them a .308.....

that being said, i dont see any gas gun shooting 0.1 MOA at ANY range......much less 800 yds.....most bolt guns wont do that......and even if you have one that could.....most SHOOTERS couldnt do that.

if you got that target from a manufacturer.....ide tell them to stop fucking around.
 
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A rifle that can barely shoot under 2 moa at 150 yds holds in the .1s at 800? Sounds like BS to me. I shoot 600 yd F-class matches with a 1/4 moa bolt gun and I don't get groups like that.
 
Looks more like a 100,200,300 yard shots and you settled down/in after the first group. That I might believe. Not sure I understand why you used two different scopes?
Were you at a range or just out shooting in the woods? Did you laser range find or pace off the distance?
 
Looks like he shot 9 rounds at the target from 3 distances brought it back to the bench and tried to decide what was what. In good light he may see holes at 150 with 25X but no way in hell at 6 and 8. He would have to be real good to even hold on a target that small at 800.
 
I'd have serious difficulty believing the groups on the target were shot at the distances stated. Is it possible that someone has added an extra 0 to the ´600´ and `800´ groups?

How does it shoot for you?
 
tt123 said:
How does it shoot for you?
Click to expand...
I haven't shot it yet since they "fixed" it. I only got it back yesterday. Prior to me sending it in, it was shooting 1.5MOA or worse at 100 yards and very inconsistent. I'm not saying I'm a great shot, but I can shoot my RPR better than that and this should be at least as good.

 
That actually looks a lot more like a zeroing target (all fired at the same distance) where they were correcting upwards and their third group opened up a bit.
 
Rastoff said:
I haven't shot it yet since they "fixed" it. I only got it back yesterday. Prior to me sending it in, it was shooting 1.5MOA or worse at 100 yards and very inconsistent. I'm not saying I'm a great shot, but I can shoot my RPR better than that and this should be at least as good.
Click to expand...

Bolt gun and semi auto are different animals.
 
supercorndogs said:
Bolt gun and semi auto are different animals.
Click to expand...

Indeed. The only reason I mentioned it is to show that, as a shooter, I'm capable of shooting 1MOA. Even so, and this is according to the manufacturer, this gun should shoot 1MOA or better. None of that really matters. What I'm most interested in is if the target is believable.
 
It's not beleivable. No manufacturer is shooting targets at distance to prove their gun is capable. They shoot at a 100y or closer. It does't really matter. If he shot those groups at 100 they are respectable. It's around an MOA gun.
 
Dispersion doesn't improve with distance. Somebody either screwed up or is full of c++p.
 
Rastoff said:
I haven't shot it yet since they "fixed" it. I only got it back yesterday. Prior to me sending it in, it was shooting 1.5MOA or worse at 100 yards and very inconsistent. I'm not saying I'm a great shot, but I can shoot my RPR better than that and this should be at least as good.
Click to expand...

Well bro.... It's on you... Pictures from your next range trip or nothing matters!
 
JoeBUtah said:
Well bro.... It's on you... Pictures from your next range trip or nothing matters!
Click to expand...

Indeed. Ultimately it's all on me. I've bought it and it's unlikely they'll give me my money back. If this gun really is capable of what they put on that target, I've got the best semi-auto .308Win rifle on the planet. If that's the case, I should be able to shoot at least 1MOA which is good enough for me. It just baffles me that the same guy who shot a 0.12MOA group at 800 yards shot a 1.6MOA group at 100 yards.

Here's a pic from my last outing with the Precision Rifle:
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i201.photobucket.com\/albums\/aa253\/Rastoff\/Ruger%20Precision%20Rifle\/100yds%2020170304%20measured_zpsxdjkitvd.jpg"}[/IMG2]

So, I know I'm capable of that. I just hope the target in the OP is real and not a fantasy.
 
OK, I just got some new info. Apparently, there were two shooters. One of them shot at the short distances and the other shot at the long distances. Knowing that, the variation from 150 to 800 now becomes possible. I could see one shooter shooting a wide group and another shooting a small one. I'm still amazed at a 0.12MOA group at 800 yards no matter who shot it or when. That's world class shooting from anyone with any gun.
 
Shoot it. Unless i know the gun and the shooter can duplicate the same results over and over then plain old dumb luck could explain a lot. And ultimately what it does in your hands it what counts to you.
 
It looks like they were all shot from the 100yd range using a BDC reticle....... one group was fired at a 100 yd range holding the BDC reticle on the 800yd, one was shot at the 100yd range holding the reticle on the 600yd.... etc etc.....
 
Tahoe333 said:
It looks like they were all shot from the 100yd range using a BDC reticle....... one group was fired at a 100 yd range holding the BDC reticle on the 800yd, one was shot at the 100yd range holding the reticle on the 600yd.... etc etc.....
Click to expand...

THAT would make sense
 
Did they run it through onTarget or did you?
 
Tahoe333 said:
It looks like they were all shot from the 100yd range using a BDC reticle....... one group was fired at a 100 yd range holding the BDC reticle on the 800yd, one was shot at the 100yd range holding the reticle on the 600yd.... etc etc.....
Click to expand...
If that were the case, wouldn't the groups go up not down?

 
mcameron said:
Did they run it through onTarget or did you?
Click to expand...
I ran it through OnTarget. I don't think these people know what OnTarget is. Also, I have no ego here. If you think I might not be using the software correctly, please enlighten me.

I went to shoot it today, but only got to the 100 yard range. Here are my targets:
Groups 1 & 2
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i201.photobucket.com\/albums\/aa253\/Rastoff\/AR-10\/After%20second%20return\/20170405%20100yd%20groups%201%20and%202_zpse2hnalok.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Group 3
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i201.photobucket.com\/albums\/aa253\/Rastoff\/AR-10\/After%20second%20return\/20170405%20100yd%203rd%20group_zpsjwrdftms.jpg"}[/IMG2]

They are 2.4MOA, 1.1MOA and 1.5MOA respectively. The 2.4MOA surprises me. Even so, I guess it could be me. I was shooting off a bench, with a bipod and a bag supporting the stock. I have a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 scope and it was set to 16x. I will try again on Friday.
 
Here is another view of the target that includes two other groups not in the original I posted:
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i201.photobucket.com\/albums\/aa253\/Rastoff\/AR-10\/After%20second%20return\/600%20800%20800%20measured_zps98hl8exq.jpg"}[/IMG2]

It shows the 800 yard group from the original post, but also a 600 yard group and another 800 yard group by a second shooter.

Taho333 suggested that they were all shot at 100 yards. So, I went back and re-measured the first 800 yard group as though it were shot at 100 yards (group 4 in the pic). It would then be a 0.93MOA group. That's a lot more believable.

This whole thing sucks. I have a rifle that may have issues and the manufacturer sent me this highly suspect target. I wish I lived closer. I'd like to see them shoot it in person.
 
This is why Vortex and Hornady came up with special bullet cameras. These new bullets would have solved this question. To give perspective on this, my G2 Recon is currently shooting .0 MOA. Donkey boner....

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

 
Rastoff said:
If that were the case, wouldn't the groups go up not down?
Click to expand...

If they were planing to do that they could have stapled the target on upside down. The picture does not include the corners, does the target show evidence of having been stapled in place three different times. If not then this manufacture must have a range with three different fireing lines. Iv'e never seen any one use the same target at three different ranges.
 
Wonder how it shoots at 1000 yards

0.1 MOA. . . .

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 
diverdon said:
If they were planing to do that they could have stapled the target on upside down. The picture does not include the corners, does the target show evidence of having been stapled in place three different times. If not then this manufacture must have a range with three different fireing lines. Iv'e never seen any one use the same target at three different ranges.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I thought of that. You can see the lower left corner in post #32. There are no staple holes. I guess they clipped it up?
 
I think you should stop beating this dead horse and go shoot the rifle yourself. It will either shoot or not. Find out, let us know?
 
It looks like a 1 moa gun to me, the rest is YOU! What ammo are you shooting? 1st group ok, obvious flyer. Group 2 MOA. Group 3 obvious flyer again. Some days your on, some days your off. It's a gas gun, not a bolt gun! It's harder to shoot a gas gun, period.

Shooting at a 100 is all you ever need to judge a guns capabilties. Past a hundred it's the Gun VS. you Vs the wind and so on. That's why you zero at a hundred and shoot reloads to test the gun at 100. The least amount of variables.

Mil-spec trigger?
 
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I don't think that is the main issue, the issue is the manufacturer is saying its a 1MOA+ rifle at 100yrds and a 0.1MOA rifle at 600 and 800 yards which is complete hogwash. Especially if the OP spent a decent chunk of change on the rifle and there is some accuracy guarantee. There is zero logical reason for groups to tighten up 10x at those distances. Even fully custom bolt guns are shooting 0.1MOA at 600-800yrds

OP. Was this a match barrel of some sort?
 
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krt22 said:
OP could you at least share caliber, barrel type/length, trigger, etc
Click to expand...
Sorry, don't know why I didn't include this earlier, well, I did give the caliber: .308Win. The barrel is 18" with a 1:10 right hand twist. The ammo I was using is Federal Sierra Matchking boat tail hollow point 168gr, 2650FPS. The trigger is a POF cartridge type with a 3lb 7oz pull. It varies about .2oz.

Just to keep all the info in one place: I used a bench, bipod and rear bag. The scope is a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50, set to 16x. Today was about 56°F, wind 0-3MPH (guess, but it was very light) from the east. Full light with no clouds. I was shooting due north. Altitude of the range is 3985' MSL. I didn't check the RH, but considering where I live I'll take a guess at 15% or so.
 
I'd pick up some 175 GMM ammo and see if the results are any different? GMM is the industry standard for factory rifles. That being said, all rifles like different ammo(preference one load over another)even same brand/model. Rifles can be individuals? Have you inspected the crown of the rifle with the muzzle device removed? Is your scope mounted tight, no movement? The Viper PST's are know for some QC problems. Upper/Lower movement in the receiver? Their are a lot of variables here. Just trying to sort the obvious ones to me and I'm no expect on gas guns.

On another note, I don't know how someone could shoot that group at 800 when 168 sierra's are known for key holing at a 1000. Did they tell you what bullet they shot with that target?
 
nobody mentioned what ammo they used? what es and sd do they have to have on top of a machine for a trigger man.

I would ask what ammo as used
 
Sorry, I thought I posted this before. The ammo they used was:
PMC bronze 147 Grain
Hornaday 308 168 Grain boat tail hollow points
Federal Match Gold metal sierra match 168 grain

This is exactly how they stated it. I don't know which was used for which groups.
 
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