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Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

TrapperJohn

Private
Minuteman
May 24, 2011
0
0
51
CO
I have an opportunity to buy a EDM Windrunner. My ability is not up to the task yet but I am thinking to buy the rifle/optics now since I have the cash and I can buy supplies I need over the next few years so when I am ready for it I will have everything I need. What I am worried about is that if I invest the cash over time the ammo/reloading supplies will dry up either from regulation or lack of interest. Will they ever be accepted into SAAMI or will they always be wildcat rounds? Do you think they will be banned along with the 50BMG in the future?

Right now I am just shooting the 308 but I want to work up to ELR and I do have easy access to a 2,500 yrd range.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

I sure hope the 375CT stays around. One of the biggest challenges for the 375 and 408 has been reloading components and factory ammunition, particularly brass. Hopefully with DTA adopting both cartridges for their HTI and providing a factory option for 375CT ammo, it'll gain some ground on the 338LM as an ELR option.

As for buying a Windrunner, they're excellent rifles with exceptional customer service. I absolutely love mine. However, if you can't reload for it or buy ammo yet, there isn't much point in having a 6-7k conversation piece. Wait on it as I don't see the CheyTac rounds to be banned with any future 50BMG ban.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Doesn't matter if it becomes SAAMI or even more unlikely C.I.P.,the 338LM got SAAMI specs not that long ago-but it isn't a WILDCAT round.Why should that matter? Provided you reload the specs mean little.

As far as banning goes...don't presume anything is safe. If muzzle energy is considered or any other kneejerk stupidity our elected officials can justify. Get while the gettin is good.

As far as loading supplies DRYING up. That's up to you. It doesn't spoil so why not buy alot. If cash is an issue-and you have to include barrel life,reloading equipment etc., than you have to decide how important it is in your budget.If you can really afford a 7K stick plus optics, you can or should plan on buying at least 200 or more cases.

Don't worry about things you have no control over.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

I got started with the .408CT back in 2006 when it was very difficult to find brass & bullets, let alone factory ammo. A lot has changed since then, namely the .375 pretty much crushing the .408 with most ELR shooters moving to it as the top performing cartridge. Brass and bullets are still not as available as most would like, but it's still better than how things were 8-10 years ago. I think the .375 will be around for a long time. If the current popularity of the .338LM is any indication, it can sometimes take a long time for a good cartridge to catch on.

The number one thing I think that will help propel the .375 into more popularity over time is the accessibility of good ballistic computers.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

I can tell you with complete certainty that the EDM XM408 is here to stay. Currently there are several very good .408 rifles being produced by different manufacturers, the EDM being the one with the most rifles in service and the longest track record of success. The Bertram Brass is stocked to the roof. The bullets are available from several sources, the best of the lot being the 420 grain from Rocky Mountain Bullet which is a jacketed bullet and not a solid projectile that fouls out a barrel in 10+ rounds. The XM408 rifle has been around since the inception of the caliber, now and forever refered as the EDM XM408, first produced by Bill at EDM, not Cheytac. Cheytac has been voted off the island for reasons painfully obvious to those who have followed the development of this weapon. George at Rocky Mountain has more trigger time behind a .408 than anyone else in the country, his round count numbering in the many thousands. What has been missing from the equation has been a reliable, accurate ballistic program that would provide data out past 3000 yards to maximize the effectiveness of the ammunition and create a complete weapons system (in addition to laser range finder, weather station, etc). The .408 ammunition has been proven out to 3600 yards. As far as the .375, testing has proven it as a good caliber, but not equal to the .408 for military applications. Better suited as an extreme long range target caliber, not an ELR military caliber. Some of this information might chap the ass off more than one person. It is nothing personal, not based on ego or finiancial gains. It is solely based on national security issues and battle field domination. Kill or be killed.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kilmore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bullets are available from several sources, the best of the lot being the 420 grain from Rocky Mountain Bullet which is a jacketed bullet and not a solid projectile that fouls out a barrel in 5-10 rounds. </div></div>

Indeed, the 419gr LRBT solid performed like a champ, but fouled so quickly and caused groups to open up in short order that I found myself thoroughly cleaning the rifle every 30 rounds or so.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As far as the .375, testing has proven it as a good caliber, but not equal to the .408 for military applications. Better suited as an extreme long range target caliber, not an ELR military caliber.</div></div>

This is the same reason the .50BMG is still popular in precision .mil applications: payload. The .375CT stays supersonic longer than the .408CT, but can't deliver the terminal ballistics the .408 can when a Mk211-type projectile is used.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Here's my question....which one do you go with??
408 has military backing, and 375 has better long range ballistics.
It was personally a tough call for me, but I ordered a 375 cheytac build.... I hope I made a wise decision....I guess I'll see.
smirk.gif
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Killmore,

What is the limiting factor in the current software for shooting at 3,000 plus yards? Is it the effect of exterior ballistics at that range that just needs to be understood or is just a matter of shooting it in front of a Doppler radar to calculate the bullets flight?

Sorry for the stupid question, I have been getting into interior/exterior ballistics and I find this really fascinating.

As far as the rifle goes. I am probably going to spend 12k plus for the rifle/optics/suppressor in the next three months and another 10k in ammo over the next year so I just wanted to make sure they are here to stay. I don't mind spending the cash for something I am going to shoot I just don't want a 12k paper weight.

Thanks everyone for the replies, I know you get a lot of stupid questions here. I just needed to feel more comfortable with my purchase.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nostradumbass</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's my question....which one do you go with??
408 has military backing, and 375 has better long range ballistics.
It was personally a tough call for me, but I ordered a 375 cheytac build.... I hope I made a wise decision....I guess I'll see.
smirk.gif
</div></div>

After reading Killmore's post I think I am going with the 408ct. I was leaning toward the 375ct but if the Gov't is going to pick up the 408ct that will mean more access to Brass & Bullets.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

At DTA we are not going to let the 375 or 408 rounds go anywhere, we plan to support them both fully. We have 375CT conversion kits and 375CT ammo both readily available now and 408 will be the same early 2013.

FYI: The 375 is far superior to the 408 and the cartridge I prefer.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nicholas Young</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At DTA we are not going to let the 375 or 408 rounds go anywhere, we plan to support them both fully. We have 375CT conversion kits and 375CT ammo both readily available now and 408 will be the same early 2013.
</div></div>

That is awesome news!
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reading Killmore's post I think I am going with the 408ct. I was leaning toward the 375ct but if the Gov't is going to pick up the 408ct that will mean more access to Brass & Bullets.</div></div>

If your deciding factor is whether the govt fields the cartridge, you might as well stick with .338LM and .50BMG. Govt use of either of the Cheytac cartridges is minimal and limited at best, but that doesn't mean they are going to die on the vine. Both have become popular in civilian circles in recent years, but I think it's safe to say .408CT usage has plateaued a bit while .375CT (for reasons stated earlier) continues to climb.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

The 408 and 375 will always have a following how big only the futuure can tell, as long as governments don't start messing with what people can use.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Trapper, start by reading up on The Magnus Effect, Snell's Laws and the theory of Mirage Effect. If your head doesn't explode you are a smart fellow. Then consider changing air density as a bullet travels upward or downward in its flight path. Also to be considered would be changing wind directions and speeds, thermal up and down drafts as the bullet traverses varying terrain, and about 50 more factors that can affect a POI at 3000 plus yards. I am but a simple minded marksman with a penchant for killing with a rifle at very long distances. But for me to claim an understanding of how to compute bullet flight for this task is a pipe dream. For example: Visualize shooting straight downrange into the eastern horizon. As the bullet from a extreme long range shot is flying, the distance to the target is getting shorter due to the earth's spin. Now imagine the mathematical equation needed to compute that into a firing solution that will yield a first round hit at ranges beyond 3000 yards and bullet flights in excess of 5 seconds? As far as the .375 and the .408 goes, the military does have the .408 in service, I am not aware of any units deployed in a combat zone with a .375 Not to say it won't happen, but ballistic studies with Armor Piercing ammo is what will seal the deal for the .408 in military applications. HSM manufactures both .375 and .408 COPper solid bullet Armor Piercing ammunition, distribution restricted to LE and MIL. The .408 clearly out performs the .375 in long range, hard target penetration. The .375 as a solid fan base for long range target shooters, and as Mr. Young from DTA stated, his company will be building and supplying rifles and ammo for the long run. And given their excellence as a manufacturer, it is safe to assume you will never be wanting for good ammo and weapons. In conclusion, the choice between a .375 and a .408 is in the application. Are your needs for a hard hitting, heavy payload, anti personnel or anti material weapon? Or are your needs for a flatter trajectory, higher velocity, lighter weight bullet, accuracy and distance based rifle? Either way, you just can't lose.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Addendum for Tapper John, both EDM and DTA offer conversion kits for caliber changes on their rifles. If for instance the .408 gets scarce due to demand, shoot the .338 Lapua kit until you can restock your. 375 or .408 and vice versa. Safe plan is to invest in precious metals, i.e. LEAD and keep a healthy supply around at all times. I always request enough ammo from my home office to wear out a barrel when I get a new weapon.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

I find the " first round hit at ranges beyond 3000 yards" part reaaaly hard to believe... Unless we talk about big targets
laugh.gif


You would need some gizmo that can read real time the variable wind downrange, and instantly give a (constantly changind) firing solution. AFAIK, it is not currently available for small arms, carryable by a two man team with other stuff.

Not to talk about the dispersion of the gun at that range...
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Yeah you would need to sample downrange data real time...and the only system I have seen that does that is the Boeing Airborne laser that targets ballistic missiles in the launch phase. It fires a smaller calibration lasers that measure the refraction along the shot path due to environmentals like air density changes. I don't know if something like that could be adapted to measure cumulative wind effects or not.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kilmore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Addendum for Tapper John, both EDM and DTA offer conversion kits for caliber changes on their rifles. If for instance the .408 gets scarce due to demand, shoot the .338 Lapua kit until you can restock your. 375 or .408 and vice versa. Safe plan is to invest in precious metals, i.e. LEAD and keep a healthy supply around at all times. I always request enough ammo from my home office to wear out a barrel when I get a new weapon. </div></div>

That was the reason I wanted to go with the EDM, after all the XM408 is only 2 pound heavier then the M98 338 but I didn't know that the DTA HTI had an option for a 338 conversion.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Killmore,

After discussing this with my wife she wants to know who this NASA scientist is and how can she get in contact with him? My wife really wants to talk to him. She is a math super-nerd and she is very intrigued with this subject. Funny thing is she really does not like firearms but the thought of an equation like that really gets her motivated, I might even be able to get her in LR shooting, LOL.

I am going to hit the books and start studying what you suggested because I am not a super-nerd so it takes me a little longer to learn this stuff. Thanks for the info!
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah you would need to sample downrange data real time...and the only system I have seen that does that is the Boeing Airborne laser that targets ballistic missiles in the launch phase. It fires a smaller calibration lasers that measure the refraction along the shot path due to environmentals like air density changes. I don't know if something like that could be adapted to measure cumulative wind effects or not.

</div></div>

^ this

Of course, being able to input more environmental variables into the equation, instead of making assumptions, is always going to be more accurate - actually acquiring those inputs is another story.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Addendum for Trapper John, please contact DTA directly in regards to their rifle conversions kits and what caliber fits which platform. I do not believe the HTI rifle accepts a .338 caliber conversion, only .50 .408 .416 and .375 The EDM Windrunner will allow a .338 to .408 conversion but a .375 is not offered.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Respectfully, all I read are extreeeemely dubious claims and a thinly disguised sales pitch for "the plan is to market it in a complete package to include rifle, computer, ammunition, and suppressor, all optimized for critical long range performance."
smile.gif
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiroFijo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Respectfully, all I read are extreeeemely dubious claims and a thinly disguised sales pitch for "the plan is to market it in a complete package to include rifle, computer, ammunition, and suppressor, all optimized for critical long range performance."
smile.gif
</div></div>

In all fairness, this sounds EXACTLY like Cheytac back in 2004.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Why even tell us about this amazing super secret ballistic computer in the first place other than to claim a position of authority or envy? It probably would be better if you just rocked out with your jingoistic self and not involve anyone here. That I can respect.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

The bottom line here is the there are US Military personnel that read this board and will benefit from these calibers. All the wazoo equipment, technology and related geegaws make not one spit of difference in the end. It is the shooter, his resolve, abilities, nerve and dedication to his craft that make the kill. I told you right off the bat that the information presented would "chap the ass" of certain people. That being you. The guys that serve the United States and her interests were intended targets of the information given. The discussion about the longevity of the .408 and .375 was aimed at the general board readers interested in ELR. If you don't like the reading, maybe you should start your own website and moderate the conversation from NZ. Or turn off your computer.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

I'm a retired US Army NCO with an SF background and time downrange in the fight who just happens to live in NZ now. Way to go.
 
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Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Honestly, all I think the OP wanted to know is if he would be able to purchase brass and bullets for a stick he spent alot of loot on.
whistle.gif


NDA's, ultra double top secret devices and their associated software is cool for the operators. 3000 yard hits? first time,everytime? I can only hope it exists and those in harm's way get's to play with it.

Its still fun to try the old fashioned way with my 338LM's and my 50's.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Kilmore,
Interesting talk on the software. I have a .375 cheytac under construction and would like to shoot as far as possible just for fun.
Given that I have shot out to 2500 yards with other calibres I don't think I will be handicapped with the "Shooter" or 'AB" apps that I run now. This gives quite a good solution and takes a number of ELR items into account.

You just need to use self determined, banded G7 BC numbers to get the drops right. These are determined by the old fashion method of getting out into the field and sending lead. More fun too!

Just need to have Berger get off their arse and produce a Match grade VLD hybrid for the .375.
cool.gif
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Wadcutter, true that. I too am of the old school of "shoot the fukr" and figure it out yourself withs hands on hardware. That is why God put windage and elevation knobs on rifle scopes. There are numerous ballistic programs available that will suit a shooters needs. Folks been getting along just fine without this technology. Once again, it is the shooter, not the equipment that determines failure or success. The technological evolution merely represents the march of time and advancement of applied science in regards to external ballistics. It was inevitable.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

I guess I will have to stick with my lowly Kestrel w/Atrag. Using banded BCs it is spot on out to 2600 yds, that is as far as I have tested it.

Will the Trimble Nomad run the software you are talking about?
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Most ballistic software can be loaded onto a Trimble Nomad or Recon, or better still, the new Trimble T-41. The new Trimble device is just over $2000.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

I already have a Nomad, I would like to see a good review of the software.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

Initial testing on the .408 Armor Piercing round is very impressive. Cuts clean through 1/2 steel plate at 600 yards. We will walk the distance back and have accurate doppler data early next year. Plans for a SLAP round with specific twist barrel are also being considered.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

If I recall correctly the original .408 solid from LRBT and then Jamison performed the same.
 
Re: Do you think the 375CT & 408CT are here to stay?

The bullet we are testing is tool steel tip/core inserted into a lead body with copper jacketing and weights +- 405 gr. Hand made one at a time. Our ballistic calculation is a max effective range of 900 yards. ATF has reviewed the bullet and does not consider it an Armor Piercing bullet as it cannot be used in a handgun, and does not have a solid Tungsten or Iron core.
 
the best software for ELR tactical application is Field Firing Solutions, I'm working up to have a good load for my .375, at present time I'm using Bertram and Horneder ( from Germany ) cases, Sierra SMK 350 and Cutting Edge, with a SMK 350 a FFS prediction I did a cold bore shot and also the second shot hit at 1600 meters on a human torso size target not an extreme range but the accuracy was good till 1750 meters ( max distance for that day ).
Stay tuned about factory ammunitions for a .408...... in Europe in the next future one of the best factory producer will be ready to delivery a complete line for military applications.....

I'm also waiting Rocky Mountain bullets for my applications.....
 
I agree FFS is an excellent prediction program. I don't own it yet, but CoryT has some very good videos on YouTube that give you an idea of its potential.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
I agree FFS is an excellent prediction program. I don't own it yet, but CoryT has some very good videos on YouTube that give you an idea of its potential.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Take a look also to Patagonia's Coldbore. Hands down the best program out there. You can have it on 3 versions, for PC, PDA and Windosw Phone. Guys on other forum made an ELR test and the results put Coldbore on top pf the heap at over a mile. Not to mention it boast complete data sync, Mappings, GPS, Targets, etc. and supports both G1 & G7 (FFS does G1 only) Lots of reviews put Coldbore on top of any list. Worth checking it.
 
I would like to see this test info as well, very strong statements applied.


Cheers
oneshot.onehit
 
May I ask what test this is you are referring to?

Thanks
Jeff

Broz, not yours don't worry... It's not an open one, being a closed group fortunately enough.
 
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Addendum for Trapper John, please contact DTA directly in regards to their rifle conversions kits and what caliber fits which platform. I do not believe the HTI rifle accepts a .338 caliber conversion, only .50 .408 .416 and .375 The EDM Windrunner will allow a .338 to .408 conversion but a .375 is not offered.

True however there are some other calibers still out there for the Windrunner. I still kick myself because I had the chance at a smoothbore .50BMG barrel for my Windrunner and just didn't have the cash. Also there was a certain someone on here many moons ago that would make odd caliber Windrunner barrels including the .375
 
One thing to keep in mind, while the .408 may (and I say may, only because no one has tried to make an AP type .375 bullet that I am aware of), have an advantage with the original Jamison solids and privately produced projectiles, the idea that the idea that the US military is going to adopt the .408 with "payload" projectiles is a pipe dream at this point. The US Army spent 10 years, billions of dollars to develop the XM1022 .50 cal "Match" round, and then just dropped the program. We cannot even produce the Mk211 projectiles here, and have to purchase them from Nammo (Raufus), and assemble them here. Any new ammunition, especially payload ammo, has to go through an extremely rigorous and time consuming testing process, in addition to the billions of dollars they would spend to do this. I had this conversation with numerous members in the NSW community when all the excitement of the .408 was at it's peak, as there were some in the community who wanted to drop the .50, and replace it with the .408. I explained it was like comparing apples and oranges. The amount of payload a .50 can deliver is markedly higher than a .408 ever would be, is already available, has almost 100 years of service, and is a known performer. Ruag showed a "match" .50 round at SHOT, so I am hoping to get them to send me some to test, and demo at the NSW school. It is just not realistic to expect the US Military to invest in developing "payload" ammo for the .408 in the current economic environment if ever. Now, that said, the .408 and .375 are both far superior antipersonnel platforms at ranges beyond practical for the .338. I know that other countries do use AP, API variants of .338 ammo in some circumstances, but I will have to find out if any of the units in our services use any of it (Produced by both by Lapua and Ruag). One of the reasons the military units who have it are using the .408 is because it was around for quite a while before the .375 was developed, so those platforms were already in inventory. What ever advantage (real or not) the .408 has in AP performance has little if anything to do with why it is being used (as limited as it is). I have a .375, simply because it is superior to the .408 in ELR applications, and I enjoy trying to develop projectiles to improve it's performance.

In regards to reading down range conditions with a laser, the Israelis have been working on this for over 15 years. We also had a program doing the same at Aberdeen Small Arms Ballistics Lab back in the mid-1990's call "White Feather," but I am afraid the program was just dropped, probably for lack of funding. I think we will eventually see a system available to our "end users" eventually, but it is simply going to take more time to reduce the technology in size and cost to make it available. The process is called Laser Interferometry. It reads both distortions in the refractive properties of the atmosphere and dust in the line of fire. I just hope I am still around to see the day the technology is available! I think our advances in the ability to get projectiles down range with potentially excellent accuracy will advance much quicker than the technology to read the conditions accurately for us to actually place the shot on target at extreme ranges.

Many may disagree with me, but this is my take on things after being involved with ELR for almost over 15 years.

Scott
 
the best software for ELR tactical application is Field Firing Solutions, I'm working up to have a good load for my .375, at present time I'm using Bertram and Horneder ( from Germany ) cases, Sierra SMK 350 and Cutting Edge, with a SMK 350 a FFS prediction I did a cold bore shot and also the second shot hit at 1600 meters on a human torso size target not an extreme range but the accuracy was good till 1750 meters ( max distance for that day ).
Stay tuned about factory ammunitions for a .408...... in Europe in the next future one of the best factory producer will be ready to delivery a complete line for military applications....


.

I'm also waiting Rocky Mountain bullets for my applications.....


It is about 9 months since your post and I am unaware of anyone in Europe ramping up for .408 ammunition. I sure don't see any progress in the states either. I don't give a rats ass about complete rounds that could cost $20 bucks apiece as Govts and military do not have limitations on what they can spend. I am interested in new sources of brass, even if once fired military rejects. For reloaders of .408, options are low and quality of brass has gone backwards. Maybe ISS will standardize on a .408 as the newest army in the world (with money).
 
Ugh...and to think I once sold a whole bunch of once-fired TTI Armory brass because I was up to my eyeballs in it.