DTA caliber dilemma

coldboremiracle

coldboremiracle

Freelance Sharpshooter
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Jul 7, 2009
    5,348
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    Utah, north
    www.coldboremiracle.com
    #1
    So, I'm getting me an SRS Covert, and it comes with the usual 16 inch .308 tube, well one isn't enough when you have a DTA. So I've been trying to decide on a caliber for the second barrel (to be done by SAC)and I cant seem to make up my mind!
    cry.gif

    I'll give you all the run down; the gun will be used for target shooting, match shooting, and some hunting of course. I already have the .308 and I know it will work in those roles, but I want something more, and something different. I'm not one of those guys who blows a wad of money just to try something different though, I want difference with an edge. So at first I thought I had it narrowed down to one of the 6.5 family, after much deliberation, I figured I'd go with the X47 Lapua. Part of this decision was based on my best friend and shooting partner is also building one and the cost's and development would be shared.
    Which brings me to my next point;
    I am not a rich man, or even a sorta well to do man. What little money I have at the end of the day is spent on the one thing that drives me to excellence, my rabid hobby of shooting. So I wanted a caliber that wouldn't break the bank (I know this sounds silly in the same post as "DTA this n that") I'd originally wanted the 338LM but that would simply drain my ammo fund to the point that I could shoot only my 338 once a month, and that wont do. So I figured a 6.5 would get me great performance for the buck, as they do very well.
    Enter the fast 7mm's. Looking into some of the 7mm's I was blown away at some of the performances, I looked at em all, and I'm kind of partial to the 7 SAUM, good speed, fairly efficient, good manufacturers, ect.

    So now I am completely torn between the 6.5X47L vs. the 7 SAUM, knowing what you now do about my needs and situation, what would you recommend? I am a bit concerned about the barrel life on the 7, maybe some of you could chime in and calm or confirm my fears?
     
    #6
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    I'm really happy with my 284 Win conversion made by SAC. It's just a hair behind the 7 SAUM concerning ballistics, will have better barrel life, will feed a lot better than a 7 SAUM, and has relatively cheap components.

    One thing to keep in mind when going with non-standard DTA calipers is that you will have to make some modifications to get the mags to work. In order to get my 284 to feed properly, I had to take a 308 mag, cut the metal spacer piece out to make it full length, and replace the internals with long action internals. After quite a bit of tweaking and polishing, it feeds great.

    I think you will find that with a 7 SAUM or WSM, the 300 Win magazine will release the case from the feed lips prematurely and if you aren't driving the bolt pretty fast and evenly, the bullet tip will get hung up and you will have a jam. That's what happened with my 284 when I tried using a 300 win magazine that Mark sent with the conversion. It was so frustrating that I almost scrapped the whole project. I was very happy to discover that I could modify the 308 mag to accommodate the 284. The 308 mag has longer feed lips which keep the case at the right angle for perfect alignment with the barrel. Now I have no misdeeds and it runs like a bat out of hell.

    PM me and I can give you some additional suggestions if you like. The DTA is an awesome platform, and I'm sure you will be very happy with it.

    On a different note, if you want to be boring but want something that just plain works, go with a 260 conversion. That's what my brother runs, and he is very happy with it.
     
    #7
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    SAC cuts a killer 284 tube, I'm tempted to try the 7 nutSAC (7mm Creedmoor) though too. I shot the test rifle that Mark built in 7 CM for a while and it was a fantastic little caliber that lends well to long range with the flexibility of all the 7mm's on the market and you can easily load subsonic ammo with it that's eerily quiet.
     
    #8
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    What barrel length will this new conversion be, are you wanting to keep it short, or is one short barrel (the 308) enough?
     
    #9
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Im thinking of running in the 24-26 in barrel length, i haven't ruled out the .280AI either. How would that compare to the 7 saum? Easy to get brass, and i believe the same bolt could be used in the DTA for both it and the .308

    Bevan, the .338 is in a different income bracket than any 7mm, as i mentioned before, that isn't an option for me.

    Jed, thanks for the input, I look forward to shooting my 7 with yours in friendly competition
    smile.gif
     
    #10
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Its a very tough desicion, but I would go with one of the 6.5 calibers and if your friend is getting into the 6.5x47, I would just go with that.

    I myself have a 6.5x47 in my DTA SRS and it works great, I have no feeding issues and I did not alter any of the magazines either.

    Plus, the lack of recoil with the 6.5's is awesome for calling your own shots.
     
    #11
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    My DTA calibers: 6.5 creed and 338 LM...best of ALL worlds.

    For matches--it's hard to beat a 6.5 creed. Low reloading costs, low recoil, and great ballistics.

    For fun--338LM...enough said.

    good luck, have fun!
     
    #12
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    PSYOPS, I concur!
    wink.gif


    Except that on top of that I add 308 Win for generic stuff: it offers the greatest barrel life, good versatility and is practically awash with good inexpensive ammo.
     
    #13
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    i have shot the x47 since 04
    great lil round
    lapua thou has priced brass to point of being stupid

    6xc half the cost, same thing but with large primer
    easy neck up or run as 6mm

    SLR would be a good choice, basically 243/260 done right
    no fire forming, based on 243 brass so will work from mags
    6 or 6.5

    Norma or hornady brass? pert near same $$
    No one can tell me horanday brass is as good as Norma
    so XC over CM

    So unless you already have X47 brass/dies etc
    XC will provide same performance with 50% savings in brass

    XC will via RE17 equal 6gap performance
     
    #14
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Again, id love to have a 338, but its just not a viable option right now. So id rather discuss the pros and cons of the X47 and 7 mm either saum or 280AI. Looking at the 175 smk at around 2900fps for very flat shooting and better ELR shooting than even the 6.5 family.
     
    #16
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Regardless of the caliber you go with (I think either the 6.5 or 7 would be awesome choices), my suggestion would be to make sure you get the foregrip extension if you're planning on running a 24-26" pipe. I have the 16" 8-twist and 22" 11-twist DTA .308 barrels, and just recently had an 18" 10-twist barrel very similar in contour to the standard 16" Covert barrel made by Mark Gordon @ SAC. Having had my Covert for a little over a year now, my take is that although it is an extremely accurate weapon system, it requires a lot more from the driver to take full advantage of its potential, particularly with the longer 22" barrel. For me, this is primarily due to the much shorter foregrip and that affects the balance and pivot between the buttstock and muzzle. If you're going to put a 24-26" barrel on it, I think you will find it easier to take advantage of whichever caliber you choose if you can put your bipod or other type of rest closer to the muzzle than the standard Covert foregrip will allow. YMMV.
     
    #17
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    How about a regular 7mm mag? Going to feed better than the SAUM and no real reason to run a short action caliber in the DTA.
     
    #18
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Gstaylor, already thought of that, and im on the same train of thought. Will be getting the extension.

    Never been a big fan of the 7mag, no reason, i just like the other options a little better.

    I guess that begs the question; which 7mm will bring me closest to 2850-2900fps with a 175-180 and provide the best barrel life?
     
    #19
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Forgive my ignorance of the DTA platform....my post may be irrelevant....

    For my latest rifle buildup, I decided on 7mm. After carefully considering all of my options, I decided on 284 Win.

    Why?

    Because it seems to walk the thin line between moderation and magnum. Sure, magnums launch bullets faster, but at a sizeable penalty to barrel life. They take a bunch more powder to make bullets go a little faster. I feel the 7-08AI, 284 and 284Shehane are efficient, and make the most out of their powder capacity. A 7RSAUM or 7WSM will certainly outperform, but with a 180gr bullet, only by 200fps, and will eat up a barrel in less than 1500 rounds. Not totally sure on that figure for the 7RSAUM, but the 7WSM can certainly eat a throat in well less than 1500. Comparatively, a 284 is more likely to go 3000 or more.

    I know DTA barrel conversions cost a mint, so barrel life is a huge consideration. Aren't they ~$1500? For a hot-rod cartridge, that's $1/round for a barrel, nevermind components!

    Another reason 284 is attractive is the availability of Lapua brass. None of the other 7's have it available...ok ok ok, the 284 doesn't really either - you have to neck up 6.5-284, but whatever.

    If Lapua brass isn't important to you, but barrel life is, the 7 creedmoor, 708 and 708AI warrant your attention! Of these, expect the 7CM that Mark @ SAC has worked up to have the best barrel life. He showed me his load workups, and I was stunned at the velocities he gets from the relatively light powder charges he's using. Talk about an efficient cartridge!

    Bottom line is any of these chamberings will launch the 162amax at over 2750fps, which makes them all REAL performers! The 7CM, 708 and 708AI can do the 175s and 180s, but don't really have the nuts to drive them great. The 284 and 284 Shehane can, though, while still steering clear of the magnum "barrel tax".

    As to the 280AI. I understand it's a great round, but there is something about the long skinny cartridges that doesn't sit right with me. Looking at the load data, 280AI takes more powder to match the performance of the 284, though because the 280AI has more powder capacity, it can ultimately outperform the 284.

    Based on your statements concerning spending money on barrels, I suggest you forego some "performance" (in quotes because these are all high-performance) for barrel life.

    EDIT: Should have mentioned Lapua brass is "available" for 7-08 and 7-08AI, just the same way it is for 284.
     
    #20
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    My last 7WSM barrel went through 3300 round before I sent it in for another barrel. That is a real number, not a number people "think" a barrel should do. And I wasn't babying the barrel either. 3k FPS out of the 180s!

    Personally, I would skip the 6.5 all together. 6mm or 7mm is the way to go.
     
    #21
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Yeah, what about a good old .243? Cheap components, you get to keep your .308 bolt and mag so your conversion is less, and you can launch .615 G1 BC pointed DTACs at 3100 fps. A lot to be said for that!
     
    #22
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    I know its not on the list but based on what your looking for i would get a 7-08 barrel. i had one last year and @ 26" i could push the berger 168vld 2775fps with h4350 and that was field verified to 1000yds on paper. it doesn't give you magnum drop chart but it gives you better wind drift/barrel life and shoots same magazines/boltface that you already have.
     
    #24
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My last 7WSM barrel went through 3300 round before I sent it in for another barrel. That is a real number, not a number people "think" a barrel should do. And I wasn't babying the barrel either. 3k FPS out of the 180s!

    Personally, I would skip the 6.5 all together. 6mm or 7mm is the way to go. </div></div>

    That is very impressive. I don't doubt you, but do take some offense to your statement about "what people THINK....." My statement about 7WSM barrel life is not conjecture. 7WSMs can and do eat barrels in less than 1500 rounds. I know and shoot with plenty of folks that have done it...not to say it WILL ALWAYS.

    Nonetheless, I think my point about choosing a non-magnum caliber for longer barrel life - especially for a DTA conversion for someone kinda tight on funds, is very valid. It would be tough convincing me, or anyone else a 7WSM isn't going to use a barrel quicker than another 7mm cartridge with significantly less powder capacity.
     
    #25
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've also considered the 7-08ai, though its much slower than my other choices.

    Turbo, very relevant post and exactly what im looking to hear, real world experience and seasoned opinion.

    Bacarat, what kind of barrel was that?'

    </div></div>

    The 7-08AI will drive a 162amax at 2800+.... No, it's not a Berger 180 Hybrid OTM at 3050, but it'll still bitchslap a 308, even with a 155 scenar at 3000fps.
     
    #26
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    This discussion is helping quite a bit, So now Im thinking, is the 7-08AI going to have cycling problems in the DTA mag? or should I just go regular 7-08? And looking on Ballistic, the 162 @ 2800fps shoots just a cunt hair inside the 175SMK @2750, so the 7-08 is looking pretty damn good! and super sonic out to 2k.

    What kind of barrel life can one expect from a 7-08 or the AI?
     
    #27
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've also considered the 7-08ai, though its much slower than my other choices.

    Turbo, very relevant post and exactly what im looking to hear, real world experience and seasoned opinion.

    Bacarat, what kind of barrel was that?'

    </div></div>

    First barrel was a Broughton, current barrel is a Rock, might try a Obermyer or Bartlien next.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My last 7WSM barrel went through 3300 round before I sent it in for another barrel. That is a real number, not a number people "think" a barrel should do. And I wasn't babying the barrel either. 3k FPS out of the 180s!

    Personally, I would skip the 6.5 all together. 6mm or 7mm is the way to go. </div></div>

    That is very impressive. I don't doubt you, but do take some offense to your statement about "what people THINK....." My statement about 7WSM barrel life is not conjecture. 7WSMs can and do eat barrels in less than 1500 rounds. I know and shoot with plenty of folks that have done it...not to say it WILL ALWAYS.

    Nonetheless, I think my point about choosing a non-magnum caliber for longer barrel life - especially for a DTA conversion for someone kinda tight on funds, is very valid. It would be tough convincing me, or anyone else a 7WSM isn't going to use a barrel quicker than another 7mm cartridge with significantly less powder capacity. </div></div>

    There is a trade off in performance calibers, no ways around it. In the grand scheme of things, replacing a barrel cost about 5-600 bucks. That is chump change compared to the 3k+ we spent on the rifle and 2k plus in the scope and other accessories we have on the gun. And that is not even factoring in how much money is spent on loaded ammo and reloading supplies. My current barrel has about 1200 rounds through it and has no signs of let up.
     
    #28
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    My 2 Favorite barrels out of my DTA arsenal is the 260, that Mark at SAC made me, and my 300 win. I'm getting great speed and performance out of both, and when I reload, or by off the shelf ammo, they don't brake the bank.

    Of course, I like all of them, but I believe my next will be the 6.5 creed.
     
    #29
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Barracat:

    I totally agree that $500-600 per barrel (fitted) is no big deal compared to the $5000+ rifle system and $0.50-$1.50 (reloaded) a round....all to shoot!

    However, the DTA is a different story, I think. I *believe* a ready to rock barrel runs $1500+ a pop, and thats not chump change on a disposable part...at least not for most of us!

    Personally, I can say fuggit, and hammer rounds downrange with little regard for how much each round is taxing my barrel - when a $500-600 barrel will last a full season. For me, thats 1500-2500 rounds. On the other hand, a $1500 barrel that lasts only a season (or less!!!) is going to take some fun out of shooting for me because I'll be worried about my barrel, its cost, and how long it's gonna take Mark @ SAC to cut a new one for me.

    It was my impression the OP would feel pretty similar about this.
     
    #30
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Correct turbo, I would definitely like this barrel to last as long as possible. Even if it were 500$ "chump change" I would be very broke to do that more than once every couple years or so. The DTA can be re-barreled, but it is my understanding that the typical "chop and set back" thing cannot be done to a DTA because you mess with the Fu of the mounting. So it's a whole new barrel to be installed. That said, the barrel extension can be reused off your old barrel, saving you quite a bit on your re-barrel, but even 1000$ is alot for me to be spending on barrels every year.
     
    #31
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    It's not $1500 every time you do a barrel swap. Part of the initial cost is the extension that attaches to the barrel. Now those will save you $400-500, putting a new barrel at around a $1000. Which is better than a $1500 pop.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barracat:

    I totally agree that $500-600 per barrel (fitted) is no big deal compared to the $5000+ rifle system and $0.50-$1.50 (reloaded) a round....all to shoot!

    However, the DTA is a different story, I think. I *believe* a ready to rock barrel runs $1500+ a pop, and thats not chump change on a disposable part...at least not for most of us!

    Personally, I can say fuggit, and hammer rounds downrange with little regard for how much each round is taxing my barrel - when a $500-600 barrel will last a full season. For me, thats 1500-2500 rounds. On the other hand, a $1500 barrel that lasts only a season (or less!!!) is going to take some fun out of shooting for me because I'll be worried about my barrel, its cost, and how long it's gonna take Mark @ SAC to cut a new one for me.

    It was my impression the OP would feel pretty similar about this. </div></div>
     
    #33
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    <span style="color: #FF0000">It's not $1500 every time you do a barrel swap. Part of the initial cost is the extension that attaches to the barrel. Now those will save you $400-500, putting a new barrel at around a $1000. Which is better than a $1500 pop.</span>

    I didn't know that!! Good to know that the extension can be swapped around.
     
    #34
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Yep, Just have to make sure the SA stay with SA, and of course the LA stay with the LA, oh yeah, and caliber specific. You find the right gunsmith, anything can happen, Right? Mark at SAC is that Gunsmith. Nothing but great things to say about that guy.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PSYOPS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000">It's not $1500 every time you do a barrel swap. Part of the initial cost is the extension that attaches to the barrel. Now those will save you $400-500, putting a new barrel at around a $1000. Which is better than a $1500 pop.</span>

    I didn't know that!! Good to know that the extension can be swapped around. </div></div>
     
    #35
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Yup, each complete conversion kit includes:

    - barrel
    - barrel extension
    - bolt
    - magazine

    Now, if you want to replace the barrel, all you need is to unscrew it from the extension and add the new one, so this is the cheapest cost involved. It gets more expensive when you want quick-change calibers and you need not only a different barrel and extension, but also a different bolt and magazine.
     
    #36
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    I have to ask this question since this is clearly a switch barrel and you are getting the 308 and another (undecided) which caliber will be used as the primary? I ask because all of a sudden your decision seems to be based on barrel life when in reality the calibers you started with will get you well over 1K rounds unless you are doing something way off the norm, and if the 7mm or 6.5 is not your primary barrel than it will take a couple seasons atleast to wear them out. Don't get me wrong and I know this comment may spark some snide remarks but thats what makes forums fun right? haha 7-08 is to 7mm's ballistically as the 308 is to 30 cals in other words they shoot the .308 and .284 size bullets but ballistically really don't belong in the category of the rest of teh 30 cals and 7mms. if your are looking for great ballistics the a 7SAUM shooting 162,168, 175, 180 is on a whole different page then the 7-08. Again not knocking the 7-08 but if you are looking for 7mm ballistics just go 7mm and use it when neccessary and in all other ocassions just use your 308 barrel this way you will have the best of both worlds....the best barrel life in the business 308 and the best BC bullets (.284) with oustanding velocities that make for one of the best long range rounds out there...I like your first choices of 308 and SAUM
     
    #37
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barracat:

    I totally agree that $500-600 per barrel (fitted) is no big deal compared to the $5000+ rifle system and $0.50-$1.50 (reloaded) a round....all to shoot!

    However, the DTA is a different story, I think. I *believe* a ready to rock barrel runs $1500+ a pop, and thats not chump change on a disposable part...at least not for most of us!

    Personally, I can say fuggit, and hammer rounds downrange with little regard for how much each round is taxing my barrel - when a $500-600 barrel will last a full season. For me, thats 1500-2500 rounds. On the other hand, a $1500 barrel that lasts only a season (or less!!!) is going to take some fun out of shooting for me because I'll be worried about my barrel, its cost, and how long it's gonna take Mark @ SAC to cut a new one for me.

    It was my impression the OP would feel pretty similar about this. </div></div>

    A full conversion kit (barrel/bolt/mag/extension) is $1500-$1600, I believe the barrels are going for less.

    A big cost of the barrel is the extension, which need not be bought again when rebarreled, so subsequent barrels are pretty much inline with replacing a barrel on most other guns - The cost of the blank and the cost of the smith.
     
    #38
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Excellent point 25, but the .308 will be kind of a trainer/cheap backup barrel, while the "other" barrel will be what I shoot in matches and for beyond .308 ranges. I do agree with your point, as it is a very valid one. I'm just concerned that the barrel life on the SAUM/WSM/280AI/ect. will be detrimental to my actual trigger time being shortened and more expensive. I would really like the 7mm to be the go to barrel, but not if its only gonna last me 2000 rounds
    frown.gif
     
    #41
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sgj2025</div><div class="ubbcode-body">308. And learn to shoot it! I have many guns but one I shoot really well!
    </div></div>

    He can already shoot a 308...trust me
    wink.gif
     
    #42
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excellent point 25, but the .308 will be kind of a trainer/cheap backup barrel, while the "other" barrel will be what I shoot in matches and for beyond .308 ranges. I do agree with your point, as it is a very valid one. I'm just concerned that the barrel life on the SAUM/WSM/280AI/ect. will be detrimental to my actual trigger time being shortened and more expensive. I would really like the 7mm to be the go to barrel, but not if its only gonna last me 2000 rounds
    frown.gif
    </div></div>

    Understood...then I agree with the majority. 7-08 would be an excellent choice for you and is a great round.
     
    #43
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    Coldbore, Just remember if you have to rebarrel the 7mm it is really the same cost as any other rifle, ( you will already have the barrel extension. )
     
    #44
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigsky23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Jeff, I love the 338 LM. 1st round, cold bore hit on 3x3 steel at 1600 yards and 8mph crosswinds. Who's the coldboremiracle now? </div></div>

    GOD bless ya buddy, I hope your happy now, this whole dilemma is your fault!!!




    So you gonna steal my name eh?
     
    #46
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Coldbore, Just remember if you have to rebarrel the 7mm it is really the same cost as any other rifle, ( you will already have the barrel extension. ) </div></div>

    Yes, I know that. I just dont want to be rebarreling every F@#%king new moon, I shoot <span style="font-weight: bold">ALOT</span>. And I'm sure once in hand, this thing will rarely cool off.

    Thanks for the thought.
     
    #47
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    I am building a 30-06/6MM. Just a 06 case necked to 6MM. I already shoot .243 and like the ballistics to 1K. I am using a LA Rem and 1/9 barrel. I want to shoot some 107-115 long nose sob's.
    However a 06/260 would also be interesting.
     
    #48
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    In my opinion You should start out with more extreme differences.
    Since you have the 308. I would go a caliber that will surely out perform it and a 7-08 does out perform but not my much. The 7mm/wsm/suam will smoke it.

    If I was keeping my DTA I would have 308 in 16", 6.5 creed in 22", 338 in 22" The only reason I would go the 7 WSM would be for competitions.
     
    #50
    Re: DTA caliber dilemma

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The 7mmSAUM will smoke it.
    </div></div>
    Exactly!! Thats why I started with it, maybe I've just come full circle.
    Come to think of it, it'll smoke alot a things
    laugh.gif
     
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