ep.286 Training & Comps

[Cjwise5]

Fundamentals are important. Period. The question is always, when I go to the range by myself, what do I do to get some real training value out of my time? Don't just go through the motions. It needs to be intentional if you want to get better. I really like the idea of just shooting paper at 100 yards, and then look for your personal trends. I would add to this, take a camera and video yourself. Get an angle from the side to show your face, hands, trigger discipline, etc. Then get an angle from behind to show your body alignment. Evaluate yourself and be picky. Let a friend see the footage and pick you apart.

As it pertains to training and competition, I think there will always be two different camps on this topic. One is the competition side and they will always be ok with "playing the game", and there's really nothing wrong with that. The other side is the practical/tactical and they will always feel that the fundamentals, tactics, and fieldcraft are more important. There's nothing wrong with that either. I think, individually, we have to decide what type of shooter we want to be, and then craft our training to help us meet our goals. It's also completely ok if that changes week to week. "Well, I've got a match coming up so my training is going to look a little different than it usually does when I'm thinking about the elk hunting trip".

For myself, I started my precision rifle journey in the competition realm, but my training, education, experience, etc. has brought me to a place where mastery of the fundamentals, tactics, and fieldcraft are way more important to me than finishing on the podium at a national two day PRS/NRL match. That competition environment simply isn't what I'm trying to be good at. Now I use the local club matches to stay sharp and validate skills. The only goal or metric that I place on myself is that I finish in the top 15-20%. If I don't do that consistently, then I know I'm screwing up.
....guess I'm rambling now...my two cents.

 

[Lowlight]

It's not really hard to create drills that accomplish both, it's just time.

One of the questions Chris prompted was how to maximize the impact of practice without having to go totally contrived. Of course, nothing will be repetition, so doing the stage over and over is gonna yield success. Guys do well because they are doing the same thing repeatedly, eventually, you have no choice but to either get better, speed up, or both.

The competitions back in the day were there more to validate training or to highlight what the military was doing by copying missions and creating stages based on operational experiences. We had teams at Rifles Only so we asked everyone, what was it, how did you do it, so we created stages.

We should look at our core positions, Standing, Kneeling, Sitting, and Prone, most of us are shooting supported forms of these positions. Understanding guys are playing a game, that game can and should serve a purpose. We dabble in this from time to time, but the main competitions are just silly now with the stages. They lack any imagination and most of the more popular ones are a result of the inmates forcing the match directors to repeat shitty stages because the competitor can control more of the results.

Fast forward to 2021, we have X amount of serious competitors, Y Amount of casual competitors, and then the entire alphabet not interested in playing the game as currently exists. What do we do...

Well it's pretty easy, everyone says to grow the sport, but none of the serious competitors are interested in that because that means more competition. It's by design a clique club, unless they know or want that shooter as part of the club entry into the serious clique is a lot harder, and from an unsupported entry, it's expensive.

My idea is using the number of competitions, some of which may not be viable because they are already popular, but a vast majority have room to improve. So you take the training benefit out of attending a competition and use that vs the competitive aspect.

I don't want my name on the sheet, and I can keep my own score, but I want to play. I have nothing on the line, but I have the time off to play. So if I can use the competition circuit to dip my toe in, I can expand the user pool. A Series competitor has to pay series competition prices, but a Shadow competitor just needs the RO to run the clock and yell Impact. No prize table, no additional support needed, just show up, shoot however many stages I want and I go home. I can keep my own score to see how I did.

But then, to the training side, creating drills that support this endeavor by creating stages that value. They would be TRUE SKILL STAGES and not adaption devices. Skill stages should be universal. A group shot at 600 yards from the prone is universal, being forced to adapt to a prop height is not. If it fits your body type, of course, you'll do better than someone required to adapt.

Like the Kraft Data target you then have valuable information. Skill stages need to set the tone, today that tone makes little sense to me. When we did barricades, it was to test sitting, kneeling, standing, you picked the location that fits you best. These are core positions. If you created a target for that, you have a valuable tool.

I want to create stuff that translates into more than one skill. That is the direction I am going, while I may not focus on competitions, I know enough about it to blend the two.

 

[Cjwise5]

Absolutely. I agree the two can be blended in a creative and fun way that also teaches a valuable skill.
I'm personally sick of the two day comps as they currently are. It's just not fun anymore. Probably 90% of the time, the answer to completing the stage is to use a barricade bag....now move over here and use the same barricade bag, in the same exact way, to solve an almost identical problem. Just gets old.
I say bring back the practicality.
I personally would like to see more "beginner" matches. 2-3 minutes on the clock, 3-4MOA target sizes, similar level of movement. I think this would help grow the sport because the new guys don't feel as intimidated by that kind of match, and the pros likely won't show up to a match that easy. When the club level matches have the winner getting 60-70% impacts, and the new shooters are less than 20% impacts, we won't grow the sport very fast. Fast growth isn't necessary, but I think new shooters are turned off when they go to a match and barely hit anything.
I'm not saying this is THE answer, but it is AN answer that would benefit beginners. I just hate seeing new people leave matches frustrated wanting to quit.
Something is definitely wrong with the competition model we are currently being forced into. I'm not sure what the best answer is.
Thanks for the podcasts Frank. I always enjoy your mix of entertainment and enlightenment. (tag line stolen from Glenn Beck lol)

 

[Lowlight]

Ya, the competition culture in the US is broken

Contrived, repetitive, nothing practical at all... more and more are having the balls to say this out loud. It's the main reason the .22 comps are growing, if I am gonna do that stuff, at least have fun with the little .22 it's supposed to be a reduced format. A centerfire format needs to be wide and bold, you need room to move.

That will be the focus on 2021, bridging the gap in my instruction to help design drills to enhance your training.

Blending the two

 

[JLP83]

Would love to see better bullets for the 7mm-08! Not sure if the prs crowd would embrace it or not but it would be great for the shooting enthusiast that also hunts.

 

[Nicholas Borne]

Someone point me to the stand kneeling sitting prone target Frank talks about in this episode please. Tried a couple searches.

Note:

Frank, when you started talking about if you were looking at something and or certain body positions would you tend to place shots in a particular place over time. I wonder if placing something distracting in a particular place near the target would influence where the shots went.
Example: you place a distracting shape, color, etc low and right of small target if shots over time would trend low and right, but still within the acceptable accuracy of POA?

 

[Lowlight]

Kraft Data Driven Training: Try This

Sniper's Hide and Chris Way of Kraft are partnering up to collect some data from Shooters. Chris is a very data-driven shooter, he is a competitive shooter and loves to analyze data. He Krafted a precision rifle course of fire designed to be shot at 100 yards and collect data from multiple...

www.snipershide.com

no that won’t work, you can’t really distract downrange like that, it would have to move even then,

its more about the pull to look, wanting to check something will cause you think about it and subconsciously look towards it, then drift that direction is what was thinking about.

 

[ChrisWay]

Someone point me to the stand kneeling sitting prone target Frank talks about in this episode please. Tried a couple searches.

Note:

Frank, when you started talking about if you were looking at something and or certain body positions would you tend to place shots in a particular place over time. I wonder if placing something distracting in a particular place near the target would influence where the shots went.
Example: you place a distracting shape, color, etc low and right of small target if shots over time would trend low and right, but still within the acceptable accuracy of POA?

Kraft Data Driven Training: Try This

Sniper's Hide and Chris Way of Kraft are partnering up to collect some data from Shooters. Chris is a very data-driven shooter, he is a competitive shooter and loves to analyze data. He Krafted a precision rifle course of fire designed to be shot at 100 yards and collect data from multiple...

www.snipershide.com

 

[ChrisWay]

Kraft Data Driven Training: Try This

Sniper's Hide and Chris Way of Kraft are partnering up to collect some data from Shooters. Chris is a very data-driven shooter, he is a competitive shooter and loves to analyze data. He Krafted a precision rifle course of fire designed to be shot at 100 yards and collect data from multiple...

www.snipershide.com

no that won’t work, you can’t really distract downrange like that, it would have to move even then,

its more about the pull to look, wanting to check something will cause you think about it and subconsciously look towards it, then drift that direction is what was thinking about.

Frank this would be a cool test to run. Have data on a sheet to shooters right they need to reference each shot; have the same data on the rifle; have the data to shooters left: run through a series of shots and check POI shift on each shot after a series.

 

[Ol' RD]

Frank you nailed it. we are about the same age, I'm not playing superman in a national comp. I would like to shoot the match but two day matches are expensive. Save me a little money on the entry and I would go to them. I like the guardian matches because the are charity events. Although I have not been able to shoot one yet. But your spot on.

 

[Ol' RD]

And anybody who knows me will tell you I'm not cheap........ I'm Frugal!

 

[C.R. Adams]

I haven't been able to make it through the entire podcast yet. Podbean app keeps giving me the finger on the way into work. However, I made it far enough to hear about the use of the same target for standing/kneeling/prone to identify a weakness. My understanding is one methodology would be to use a tripod, adjust it to fit us and shoot the standing and kneeling positions in the optimum height for each person. Then compare each of the positions looking for the weakness and take the largest grouping to identify a shooter's "aggregate" MOA.

I think we shooters could go one step further and break this down by position as well.
1. set a tripod at the optimum height for an individual position.
2. on the same target, shoot from less that optimum heights/barricades utilizing that same position.
3. you now have an 'aggregate' moa for each position and can see where the shooter needs work in that position.
a. for example, a shooter may shoot the more upright standing position better than a low/crouched over standing. Therefore indicating the shooter has work to do in that subset of the standing position.

Also, it was mentioned how to transition this to steel. wouldn't a simply KYL rack be sufficient to show the shooter's strength in each position? for example: prone, i can hit the 1/2 moa gong for x number of consecutive shots. (each shooter's ability identifies how many consecutive shots, X is and this now becomes the baseline shot number for the other positions) Standing, I can only hit the 2 moa gong for those same consecutive shots. kneeling the 1.5 moa, etc.

 

[ChrisWay]

I like starting with all of the data in a single sheet. The reason I like this is because we can start a conversation about an unknown shot from an unknown position. If we break away each position too early it’s very easy to get caught up in details and forget that we’re trying to understand our general trends and unknown applications. For example, say you walk around a bend in a path while hunting or whatever and have an opportunity to shoot whatever. The only position you get is kneeling. If you think, I tend to shoot left kneeling you may second guess your point of aim. Also you may over estimate your ability and make a bad call. If you consider the aggregate data you’re more likely to make a good call and adequate assessment of hit probability. Say aggregate is 4moa but each position is actually 2 with deviations in up down left right. I think people in general will make bad calls starting with positional data first.. but I’ve been wrong before. Keeping in mind we’re talking in generalities to all shooters reading this page, there will be exceptions, we need to start off big and work smaller responsibly.. with data from the whole group. So. Go shoot the drill and share your data.

 

[ChrisWay]

I haven't been able to make it through the entire podcast yet. Podbean app keeps giving me the finger on the way into work. However, I made it far enough to hear about the use of the same target for standing/kneeling/prone to identify a weakness. My understanding is one methodology would be to use a tripod, adjust it to fit us and shoot the standing and kneeling positions in the optimum height for each person. Then compare each of the positions looking for the weakness and take the largest grouping to identify a shooter's "aggregate" MOA.

I think we shooters could go one step further and break this down by position as well.
1. set a tripod at the optimum height for an individual position.
2. on the same target, shoot from less that optimum heights/barricades utilizing that same position.
3. you now have an 'aggregate' moa for each position and can see where the shooter needs work in that position.
a. for example, a shooter may shoot the more upright standing position better than a low/crouched over standing. Therefore indicating the shooter has work to do in that subset of the standing position.

Also, it was mentioned how to transition this to steel. wouldn't a simply KYL rack be sufficient to show the shooter's strength in each position? for example: prone, i can hit the 1/2 moa gong for x number of consecutive shots. (each shooter's ability identifies how many consecutive shots, X is and this now becomes the baseline shot number for the other positions) Standing, I can only hit the 2 moa gong for those same consecutive shots. kneeling the 1.5 moa, etc.

 

[ChrisWay]

I guess I would rather see your paper and talk about that than just speculate on what might improve people’s abilities. Post some targets and then we can discuss!

 

[C.R. Adams]

I guess I would rather see your paper and talk about that, than just speculate on what might improve people’s abilities. Post some targets and then we can discuss!

that's the goal, but i'm at my day job. I just listened to the shit this morning.

 

[Lowlight]

I think it's a great idea, and it's something I was thinking about this AM after reading the post above

There is no reason why this can't be a drill too, one that gathers information like originally posted and then expand it to include drills and things people can do on their own to help diagnose and improve

I was playing with an Eval Sticker, then I was thinking, why not fix the downloadable targets on here and improve and update the offerings

I always overlook just downloading a target and shooting it, but tons of people do it every day. So why not create a series of targets that not only inspire but inform?

I like the idea of comparing a barricade to a tripod that was properly set up for the shooter. It would be a valuable piece of information on several levels. The key I think is sticking to a similar format.

Chris has a very specific goal for his work, but I think creating branches to this tree will provide a huge canopy of data we can use to guide everyone out there.

 

[C.R. Adams]

There is no reason why this can't be a drill too, one that gathers information like originally posted and then expand it to include drills and things people can do on their own to help diagnose and improve

This is exactly how I intended it to be used; as a compliment to the original post.

 

[ChrisWay]

I think it's a great idea, and it's something I was thinking about this AM after reading the post above

There is no reason why this can't be a drill too, one that gathers information like originally posted and then expand it to include drills and things people can do on their own to help diagnose and improve

I was playing with an Eval Sticker, then I was thinking, why not fix the downloadable targets on here and improve and update the offerings

I always overlook just downloading a target and shooting it, but tons of people do it every day. So why not create a series of targets that not only inspire but inform?

I like the idea of comparing a barricade to a tripod that was properly set up for the shooter. It would be a valuable piece of information on several levels. The key I think is sticking to a similar format.

Chris has a very specific goal for his work, but I think creating branches to this tree will provide a huge canopy of data we can use to guide everyone out there.

I have a series of exercises developed for after this drill but feel confident that if people don't consider the overall group and target as their "shooting value" they will miss shots or train themselves into a corner and still underperform. Of course anyone can do whatever they want, but I would be willing to bet that in isolation a shooter will over estimate their ability in an unknown shooting scenario.

 

[Lowlight]

Not sure I follow that,

If you identify that under your rules using a tripod you can hit 2 MOA or better and under their rules when you have to adapt (using a barricade) you start off hitting 3 MOA if gives you something to shoot for... I need to improve on this, it's valid information.

Pretty sure that is all he is trying to convey

 

[TDWilson]

My idea is using the number of competitions, some of which may not be viable because they are already popular, but a vast majority have room to improve. So you take the training benefit out of attending a competition and use that vs the competitive aspect.

I don't want my name on the sheet, and I can keep my own score, but I want to play. I have nothing on the line, but I have the time off to play. So if I can use the competition circuit to dip my toe in, I can expand the user pool. A Series competitor has to pay series competition prices, but a Shadow competitor just needs the RO to run the clock and yell Impact. No prize table, no additional support needed, just show up, shoot however many stages I want and I go home. I can keep my own score to see how I did.

I am exactly “that guy” you were referencing in your podcast. Outside of military qualifications, I have never shot for a score. I probably have the time for maybe two or three events per year, so realistically I will never be competitive. I don’t shoot a fashionable, zippy 6mm, and I don’t give a shit if I win or lose. National points? Don’t care. My primary goals would be to challenge myself and learn. Secondarily, if I have fun and meet some good people, then that’s a win. Having my name off the score sheet—especially at my first event where I know I‘m going to suck—would be appreciated.

 

[ChrisWay]

I am exactly “that guy” you were referencing in your podcast. Outside of military qualifications, I have never shot for a score. I probably have the time for maybe two or three events per year, so realistically I will never be competitive. I don’t shoot a fashionable, zippy 6mm, and I don’t give a shit if I win or lose. National points? Don’t care. My primary goals would be to challenge myself and learn. Secondarily, if I have fun and meet some good people, then that’s a win. Having my name off the score sheet—especially at my first event where I know I‘m going to suck—would be appreciated.

Zero names are on the data sheet. All I do is print the target and compile the numbers. The connection to an individual is not recorded.

 

[Lowlight]

Growing the sport is not rocket science, when I was involved it grew nicely with no drama

it’s understanding the customer, who is gonna consume the product. If you don’t understand them and just work to grow your wallet it won’t work.

people want to feel comfortable at a match, that is missing fir many would be new shooters

 

[C.R. Adams]

Growing the sport is not rocket science, when I was involved it grew nicely with no drama

it’s understanding the customer, who is gonna consume the product. If you don’t understand them and just work to grow your wallet it won’t work.

people want to feel comfortable at a match, that is missing fir many would be new shooters

IMO, the growth is going to occur at the club level; the one day events were people don't have to invest the all of the costs associated with long distance overnight expenses related to a nat'l two day match. I also believe the MD's for club matches have a bit more discretion as to how they wish to make the club match. Last weekend, i encountered my first stage with a material amount of movement. probably a combined movement of 30 yards with shots occurring during the movement (shoot, move, shoot, move, etc). I thought that particular stage was the shit. Of course i timed out and made a mental error, but it was a blast and much preferred that stage to many of the common stages. once a month, i travel 3 hrs and stay overnight for a well run one day match that is over by 2:00.

 

[Wabtklr]

Great Podcast and thread Frank and Chris, now you have me thinking about running a small local match. Who could I talk to about setting up a match in a small town? As always Frank, you have a Great Podcast, Don't Change A Thing, I listen to you "Because" you are not afraid to say anything about any topic or subject. I listen because you are funny, you are always trying to be better, learn more and question the status quo. I have learned so much from the podcast and I am working to be a better marksman. Keep up the Great work.

 

[Namekagon]

I think the key to growing the sport is strong local clubs, putting on local matches in addition to the national for-points stuff.

I am a new shooter to comps, I have done 3 local matches total. In WI, WPRSC runs a series of one-day local matches. They also host a Border Wars match and PRS regional matches. The match director does an awesome job putting them together.

For now I don't attend matches to win. I'm there to test myself and shoot cool stages. So I avoid shooting in the "big" matches WPRSC does and stick to the local matches. The cool thing is, alot of the stages are the same, so I get to experience the stages, props, target packages a big match would have, but in the laid-back atmosphere of a club match that's perfect for learning. These local matches rock. And when the national guys show up and the pressure is on, I'm not there to slow things down. Its a win for everyone.

If the only matches available here were big PRS national point matches, I may never have tried one because of the intimidation factor, and because I know my equipment isn't national-match worthy. Local matches were just what I needed to get started.

 

[Namekagon]

I got into rifle matches by showing up to a local rifle club's 600 yd benchrest match. It was an extremely informal match where you shot whatever you had, equipment didn't matter. I shot a 22-250 coyote gun. Many guys used deer rifles. It was a great intro to competition shooting, and I did that for several years.

That got my interest up, I built a 6XC and eventually started shooting F-class at a local NRA Highpower match. Obviously this is a much more formal setting, but I was ready for it because of shooting those informal BR matches for several years.

Then dipped my toe in a local PRS style club match. This was the type of shooting I had always really been interested in, but would never have considered trying a match if I hadn't had some experience with the F-class and BR stuff. Even then, it was pretty intimidating because the shooting is much more dynamic. More ways to screw up.

So for my experience, informal club matches being available was what got me involved.