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  • Apr 12, 2001
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    Sniper's Hide and Chris Way of Kraft are partnering up to collect some data from Shooters.

    Chris is a very data-driven shooter, he is a competitive shooter and loves to analyze data. He Krafted a precision rifle course of fire designed to be shot at 100 yards and collect data from multiple positions.

    To get into the background, Chris is training for Assassins Way and has competed in several national level precision rifle events. You can follow his YT Channel or Instagram Account. For further background, you can listen to Chris on the Precision Rifle Podcast.


    The idea of this target is to shoot multiple positions, this is meant to be dynamic, to replicate positions one might find in the field or in competition.

    We are looking at the basic position, all supported.

    • Standing
    • Kneeling
    • Sitting
    • Prone
    Supported Positions

    We want a minimum of 3 shots per position, and make it realistic. Don't build a better position because you are not on the clock. We want you to engage these positions clean and free, on-demand. In other words, don't use a bench with additional support, we want this to be as organic as possible.

    Use the calibrated target below, we don't need comment on the paper, but details will help. We are strictly collecting data to compare across a wide range of shooters. We want just want you to post a picture of your group, If you want to discuss that is no problem at all, the more discussion the better. But the reality is Chris simply needs the image of the shot group.

    I would recommend a tripod, but a barricade is an easy way to accomplish this drill.

    If you want to include caliber and rifle information that is no problem at all. We are really just looking at the group.

    Download the target, go out to 100 yards and shoot the positions, Then post your image here or email to Chris at the address on the PDF.

    You shoot the same target for each position, we are looking at the overall total group size based on the changes in position

    Screen Shot 2020-12-10 at 9.58.30 AM.png
     

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    MCHOG

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    I'm all for a data-driven approach to the craft. Does he explain elsewhere exactly what he is trying to determine; his hypothesis; his methodology for analyzing what he gets?

    I would have thought he would want each hole identified to each position, so I'm at a loss for what he is looking at exactly.
     

    ChrisWay

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    I'm all for a data-driven approach to the craft. Does he explain elsewhere exactly what he is trying to determine; his hypothesis; his methodology for analyzing what he gets?

    I would have thought he would want each hole identified to each position, so I'm at a loss for what he is looking at exactly.
    I don't want people to try to produce the results I might be looking for. So simply providing the target photos helps me more than influencing outcomes. Also, im looking for more of a hypothetical position, hypothetical shot, data rather than isolating out positional specific data so isolating the positions makes more work on my end. In the future I might have a diagnostic target for specific positions, but it depends on this sample size.
    Thanks for asking !
     

    ChrisWay

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    On the 22lr target I had the wrong bullet profile for dope. Adjusted and then shot the last 11 rds
    Thank you! Man.. think of all those little things that we disregard as not important like bullet profile.. zero.. and then consider if that happened in various scenarios. I think that’s A. Totally normal and I do it all the time B. A learning experience that there’s more to shooting than simply loading ammunition and making noises!
     

    ChrisWay

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    @ChrisWay what are the dimensions of the target...or how important is printing it at exactly the right size?

    I noticed my printer cut off some of the text at the bottom. I’m not sure if it scaled the target. The diamond I have is 7 inches, point to point, and about .353” between lines...or .5” between points on the horizontal. Sound right?
    The diamond score boxes are 1 MOA per section. so point to point there should be half inch space. I do think that the scale matters for data to be collected and put into the number cruncher but if its off by a small amount it can still be revealing. I also think that for your own personal analysis none of that really matters unless you're looking for a specific set of data. plenty of insights can come from looking at your shots on a variety of shapes and target sizes. This project though needs a uniform consistent standard. I think that since most shooters understand the MOA discussion on target sizes its a great standard to bridge all disciplines of shooting.
     

    seansmd

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  • Aug 8, 2018
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    Use the PDF it will scale properly with your printer.

    I believe the are diamonds in 1 inch increments, is this correct, my 7 box measured exactly 7" not 7x1.047?
     
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    enginerd

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    Chris Way #kraftdata
    I ran the Kraft data challenge today with two different Rifles. My 25Creedmoor and my 223rem trainer. I used a mini GC hybrid for all positions and that was the only bag or support used.
    What I found was that sitting was the most difficult position for me. I used a folding chair for the 25 which was too low to get a good sitting so I was sorry if laid out on the side of my hip. so I tried the tripod with a plate on top with the 223 which I found was worse even though I was a little higher up and could get both cheeks on the ground and support elbows on my knees.
    I did a baseline prone group with both guns and will need to look at working up a more accurate load for the 25 as it was stringing in prone while the 223 put everything into a single ragged hole after shifting the zero due to different ammo having been used previously.
    I took my time and didn't rush shots so the next time I go out I'll try it with a time stressor.
    I want to find something better to shoot from for sitting. Might have to take the multi level barricade instead of the tank trap.
    What I found most revealing was that my groups centered a bit low with both Rifles. That would indicate that though my rifle is set properly while prone, somewhere in positional I am pushing low. Thinking back on many of the last matches, I find I am low on Target from anything not super stable. More investigation is warranted.
    Collin
     

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    Bravo6niner

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    Shot standing off the top of gate, low kneeling off the tip of tank trap post, high kneeling off tire, and prone. Didn’t want to sit in the snow 🥶
     

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    CRPS Shooter

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    @ChrisWay I realize this is focused on CF but if shot with a rimfire do you prefer 50 yards to reduce wind or do you feel that 100 would be better for your data as the positional effects will also be smaller?
     
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    Dthomas3523

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  • Jan 31, 2018
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    @ChrisWay I realize this is focused on CF but if shot with a rimfire do you prefer 50 yards to reduce wind or do you feel that 100 would be better for your data as the positional effects will also be smaller?

    I would do 25 or 30. Much closer to 100yd with cf than 50. Pretty easy to get .2 of wind at 50 with Rimfire depending on the day.
     
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    CRPS Shooter

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    I would do 25 or 30. Much closer to 100yd with cf than 50. Pretty easy to get .2 of wind at 50 with Rimfire depending on the day.
    Ya I agree. I mostly shoot rimfire as we have next to no CF matches in ontario. I was more wondering if he is collecting rimfire data what distance he wants.
    I run drills on 1" circles at 50 for my own personal improvement.
     

    ChrisWay

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    @ChrisWay I realize this is focused on CF but if shot with a rimfire do you prefer 50 yards to reduce wind or do you feel that 100 would be better for your data as the positional effects will also be smaller?
    I have been collecting targets form shooters with rimfire at 100. Ideally we get the best data from further shots without leaving the paper target. I just wanted a distance people generally have access to.
    I would bet the data from rimfire at 100 will reveal more than the centerfire as it’s exaggerated more. If more people had access to 200-300 yards we would see better positional stuff fir centerfire but we gotta use what’s most accessible.
    at distances where people are putting rounds into a single hole it’s too hard to measure each bullet hole..
     
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    ChrisWay

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    Ya I agree. I mostly shoot rimfire as we have next to no CF matches in ontario. I was more wondering if he is collecting rimfire data what distance he wants.
    I run drills on 1" circles at 50 for my own personal improvement.
    100yards is best for this
     

    ChrisWay

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    I would do 25 or 30. Much closer to 100yd with cf than 50. Pretty easy to get .2 of wind at 50 with Rimfire depending on the day.
    If you only have access to those distances then go for it, but for this 100yards is the standard so please write the distances on the paper so I know to scale appropriately
     

    CRPS Shooter

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    100yards is best for this
    Sounds good. I was going to go out today and do it but a blizzard hit 🙄.
    I expect you have already a bit of data yourself before you started this. As stated my main thing is rim fire. I have done many tests shooting groups from different positions but it was always at 50 yd. My goal was group size. My conclusion is that if your prone groups are .75" and your positional are 1.25" then you can shoot ammo as bad as 1.25" prone and you cannot tell the difference in a positional group. This accuracy obsession doesnt help guys much. I also watched POI shift to tell if a rifle is consistent but my data is just me with my rifles. Putting all 4 positions on paper is a interesting idea to me and think it is a better way to see patterns. I think if you really want to get picky with results knowing if its a right or left handed shooter will be needed as they will give opposite results.
    I will do a number of combinations as weather allows. (I will be doing mostly 22lr as thats my thing maybe a 6mm to see the difference) Your Idea of getting guys on the hide to add to the data pool is brilliant. I'm looking forward to what you find.
     

    Strike_out

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    Shot these about 3/4 speed
     

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    Ruff 364

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    Chris,

    I made this a side stage at our practice match today. Everyone enjoyed it.
     

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    Boon20

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    Im seeing the value in an acual tripod. I was using one of those cheap bog tripods i had. Adding another thing to the list to get
    Pic_2020_12_20_09_46_10.jpg

    Couldn't find #12 on the target was thinking i missed. Checked the back of the box to find it
    Pic_2020_12_20_10_41_53.jpg

    Thought i did ok for my 3rd time using it but i need to practice more. I wonder how big of a difference there will be with a good tripod and practice
     

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    Hoyt7mm

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    Shot this twice this weekend. 308 suppressed trainer both times. First go around, I forgot my tripod so I improvised a mediocre low standing position. The target definitely shows it. There are a few things I noticed when shooting.
    1. I realized lately I was starting to move the rifle towards my should instead of keeping it tighter to my body centerline. I addressed this the 2nd time and recoil management was much better.
    2. I need better target backers.
    3. The target and lines were hard to see in the bright sun and snow. Kind of washed out at 12-15x. Second time I added an orange 1" sticker to the center for an aiming point. Maybe shade in each moa diamond with a different color or something for better contrast?
     

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    Dthomas3523

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  • Jan 31, 2018
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    If you only have access to those distances then go for it, but for this 100yards is the standard so please write the distances on the paper so I know to scale appropriately

    Keep in mind, 100yds Rimfire is going to have the equivalent of wind at the same amount as a 6mph centerfire rifle will have at 600 yds. About .6 of wind at a 6mph full value wind.
     

    ChrisWay

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    Everyone is kicking ass at getting targets to me. I have a huge stack and Bob and I have been crunching the data to see some great things emerge. Once we get the correct visuals we will start posting the running correlations we’re seeing. I hope to continue to add targets as long as people are willing to submit them so if you haven’t or plan to re shoot don’t worry as I intend to add to the population of data continuously.
    there are five more diagnostic tests to roll out at minim numbers, so if you’re into this and want to use that data to see where we think you have gaps that can be filled easier than others stay tuned.
     

    lowlight

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    I have a video, although one card was acting funky I hope I have all of it, when I went to review in the camera is showing an issue, not playing. I just got home I have to check it, but I have footage.

    But I didn't "run" it like a stage, I set up at each position and shot it, of course moving from one to the other as I finished, but I took my time, which was like a minute per stage if that, it was only 3 rounds. I did not rush, I built my position and shot, then moved to the next. Like I said I might have spent a minute per position.

    I have a bigger thread/article to make because I noticed something doing this, and I changed my entire zeroing and set up beforehand.

    I bought the Valkyrie with me, it was a practical rifle, AX Chassis, not a lot of extras, just a Bighorn with a LH GT Bartlein, when I first addressed the rifle I didn't like the position of the scope, it needed to come one pic back to feel really comfortable in all positions. So I moved the scope and rezeroed it with 75s. I didn't like what saw with those so I switched to 88s, and was much happier with my set up going into it.

    So from the beginning, I rezeroed the rifle with 88s at 100 yards, then I did a practice run on paper (dots, different target) and checked my zero. This is where it gets tricky:

    So in the prone, you have one zero, in the other positions you will see an offset, so I checked it. (Nobody said there was no practice) I wanted to find my balance of zero between the positions. Which I did, it's about .2 in variation is what I saw.

    I used this target to practice:
    IMG_1034.PNG


    if you look at the second target from the right, that had my final elevation on it. Just that little guy in the orange. I shot it for zero in the standing after this run. So the rifle was zeroed, I balanced that zero dialing up .1 from the center and it kept my shots tighter. More Precise on target. But I did take the time to establish all this, no rules against it. :)


    IMG_1031.JPG


    So you had one about .1 Low and then another about .1 High

    IMG_1032.JPG


    These are 3/4" dots with 3/8" orange pasty I stuck on it to see, (I added the same pasty to the Kraft target the aiming point was not comfortable for me, so I changed it. I needed a better aiming point, so once the floating dot hit the orange I was good. I actually did better shooting faster, breaking the instant the dot was centered.

    If you check out my target above you see one stringing right, I found my leveling base was slipping so when I shot it for the score, I had to overtighten the tripod to keep it from tossing a round which I still did. I think my 2MOA right side flyer was the Leveling base slipping there too. As a side note, when I was all finished putting everything away I noticed my suppressor was loose too, 224 probably didn't care because it was a 30 cal can on it, but it was definitely loose.

    A couple of observations:

    NPA Matters, I had to make sure I broke the center of the target with my vertical reticle. Then my horizontal was set up .5 Low as my head weights .5 Mils. So that means when I address the rifle, I rise into my target, I then back off the pressure, check the reticle position, if it does not drift left or right, I was good to start.

    I run about 75% of Full pressure behind the rifle in the alternate positions.

    So my thinking was, zero .1 Mil high of center in the prone then my positional shots will be more in line with my prone zero. I fine-tuned it by doing a single practice run then I went live the whole thing took me maybe 4 minutes. I set up the rifle up ahead of time for this.

    Basically, I settled on my zero needing to be .1 Mil high of center and .1 Mil left of center. In order to group dead center on the target as often as possible. But for sure the tripod matter, the NPA of that.
     

    CRPS Shooter

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    I have a video, although one card was acting funky I hope I have all of it, when I went to review in the camera is showing an issue, not playing. I just got home I have to check it, but I have footage.

    But I didn't "run" it like a stage, I set up at each position and shot it, of course moving from one to the other as I finished, but I took my time, which was like a minute per stage if that, it was only 3 rounds. I did not rush, I built my position and shot, then moved to the next. Like I said I might have spent a minute per position.

    I have a bigger thread/article to make because I noticed something doing this, and I changed my entire zeroing and set up beforehand.

    I bought the Valkyrie with me, it was a practical rifle, AX Chassis, not a lot of extras, just a Bighorn with a LH GT Bartlein, when I first addressed the rifle I didn't like the position of the scope, it needed to come one pic back to feel really comfortable in all positions. So I moved the scope and rezeroed it with 75s. I didn't like what saw with those so I switched to 88s, and was much happier with my set up going into it.

    So from the beginning, I rezeroed the rifle with 88s at 100 yards, then I did a practice run on paper (dots, different target) and checked my zero. This is where it gets tricky:

    So in the prone, you have one zero, in the other positions you will see an offset, so I checked it. (Nobody said there was no practice) I wanted to find my balance of zero between the positions. Which I did, it's about .2 in variation is what I saw.

    I used this target to practice:
    View attachment 7509206

    if you look at the second target from the right, that had my final elevation on it. Just that little guy in the orange. I shot it for zero in the standing after this run. So the rifle was zeroed, I balanced that zero dialing up .1 from the center and it kept my shots tighter. More Precise on target. But I did take the time to establish all this, no rules against it. :)


    View attachment 7509201

    So you had one about .1 Low and then another about .1 High

    View attachment 7509202

    These are 3/4" dots with 3/8" orange pasty I stuck on it to see, (I added the same pasty to the Kraft target the aiming point was not comfortable for me, so I changed it. I needed a better aiming point, so once the floating dot hit the orange I was good. I actually did better shooting faster, breaking the instant the dot was centered.

    If you check out my target above you see one stringing right, I found my leveling base was slipping so when I shot it for the score, I had to overtighten the tripod to keep it from tossing a round which I still did. I think my 2MOA right side flyer was the Leveling base slipping there too. As a side note, when I was all finished putting everything away I noticed my suppressor was loose too, 224 probably didn't care because it was a 30 cal can on it, but it was definitely loose.

    A couple of observations:

    NPA Matters, I had to make sure I broke the center of the target with my vertical reticle. Then my horizontal was set up .5 Low as my head weights .5 Mils. So that means when I address the rifle, I rise into my target, I then back off the pressure, check the reticle position, if it does not drift left or right, I was good to start.

    I run about 75% of Full pressure behind the rifle in the alternate positions.

    So my thinking was, zero .1 Mil high of center in the prone then my positional shots will be more in line with my prone zero. I fine-tuned it by doing a single practice run then I went live the whole thing took me maybe 4 minutes. I set up the rifle up ahead of time for this.

    Basically, I settled on my zero needing to be .1 Mil high of center and .1 Mil left of center. In order to group dead center on the target as often as possible. But for sure the tripod matter, the NPA of that.
    Interesting notes. I have a rifle that has a 0.3 mil shift higher in the prone position. I largely believe it is the rifle (its the Ruger precision rimfire) because of the flexi plastic stock. But if you see it on a real setup then obviously there is more going on then just the rifle. I have been tracking my POI for a bit to try and overcome its quirks well competing so this thread is very very interesting.
     

    ma smith

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  • Sep 29, 2020
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    So in the prone, you have one zero, in the other positions you will see an offset
    Could someone explaint the zero "wandering" with position? Is prone bipod worth establishing a zero from it its not zero'd in other potisions? Sorry If I'm being an idiot and please delete or put in a new thread if thats better. I've been shooting off a ruck alot for field practice, and trying to fine tune my zero so this has piqued my curiosity.
     
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    ChrisWay

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    Could someone explaint the zero "wandering" with position? Is prone bipod worth establishing a zero from it its not zero'd in other potisions? Sorry If I'm being an idiot and please delete or put in a new thread if thats better. I've been shooting off a ruck alot for field practice, and trying to fine tune my zero so this has piqued my curiosity.
    Without doing what I hate and saying "it depends" ill just tell you my thoughts and findings. In perfect conditions I believe that a rifle zeroed any way would be zeroed, but the problem is that the rifles have to deal with us. Our bodies are not perfect symmetrical linear systems; what I mean is that the angle, distance, and other relationships between the parts of your body that come into contact with the rifle change as you move from one position to another. As a result to the changing angles, and relationships of mass and density, the rifle essentially bounces off of our tissues differently when we move from one position to another. If a shooter could identify the forces and find a way through practice to even them out then I do think that you wouldn't see much movement ( and the better shooters have the least movement) but it takes time and mindfulness.. not a quick trip to YouTube. So, "it depends" on what you're doing to the rifle.. but most of us do something different to the rifle in various positions and have to work at streamlining the input. Of course this is just my speculation and someone might come set us both straight, which would be cool because id love to know a better explanation and see it demonstrated. I could use my ammo for other things like hitting smaller targets more consistently!
     

    2aBaCa

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    This may or may not help explain things.