Evaluating Annealing Temperature

mdesign

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 2, 2004
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Nebraska
My winter project has been to better understand annealing and see if I could develop a process that works for me. If you read the articles on 6mmbr and watch the videos of the hand fed annealing machines, it still seems to me to be subjective as to what a correctly annealed case looks like.

In my article on my 300wsm on 6mmbr, I show how I use 650 degree F paint to anneal the necks so they did not split. This works well but did not line up with the temperatures or brass color others were claiming as part of correctly annealed cases.

I have tested up to 1000 deg F so far and thought I would put some comparison pics out there.

Here is a case prepared with 1000 deg paint.
Applicationofpaint.jpg


3 different heat levels
HeatComparision.jpg


Case #1 was heated using the 1000 deg paint
Case #2 was heated until the neck was dull red
Case #3 was heated until the mouth of the case turned bright red.

As you can see, there where different heat levels as the coloration moves down the case. It takes about 10 seconds of heating with my torch arrangement for the 1000 deg paint to liquify. About 12 seconds of heating for the neck to turn dull red and about 14 seconds for the neck of the case to turn bright red.

Turning necks dull red is one school of thought on how to anneal cases but it is usually thought to happen at a lower temperature than 1000 deg F.

Notice that I did not lose the shine on the case in either heats, also another school of thought of when cases are over heated.

The mouth of the case that I turned red, greyed out after it cooled and the brass seemed soft by the hand squeeze test.
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

Check your Emails! I just sent you a good aticle from Precision shooting on annealing! Good read.

Also, could you provide a link to your article on 6mmbr.

Terry
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: suasponte</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check your Emails! I just sent you a good aticle from Precision shooting on annealing! Good read.

Also, could you provide a link to your article on 6mmbr.

Terry </div></div>

Would you share the article on line or send me an email?

Thanks, I've got 'bout 250 308 cases that need it bad but I've never done it before.
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

Here is a link, not where I can get to my email right now but am looking forward to reading more on this subject.

300 WSM

There is no doubt that the brass is more malable when heated using the 1000 deg paint than the 650 deg but it did not change the way it resizes in my die. The ID of the neck measures .330 with a plug gage and the OD of the necks measure .3315 after sizing.

I have an RCBS sizer die with an ID that measures .332 and the sized necks measure .3335 coming out of that die so the amount of spring back seems to be consistent.

Right now I use a Redding FL sizer but may switch to a bushing die in the future. not sure on this yet.

Have considered buying/building one of those table top annealing machines but need a process before I do either.
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

Nice. Thanks for sharing your findings. You know, what I would do as a follow up experiment, is get your hands on an IR thermometer if you can, and check the actual temps just to confirm that the tempilaq ain't lying.
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palmik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice. Thanks for sharing your findings. You know, what I would do as a follow up experiment, is get your hands on an IR thermometer if you can, and check the actual temps just to confirm that the tempilaq ain't lying. </div></div>

Actually, I have an IR thermometer and was planning to do some thermal imaging when I get home. (a week or two)

"Dull Red" testing was done in a dark room while the paint has to be done in the light so you can see when it happens.

The drill runs about 100 rpm, not too fast.
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palmik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice. Thanks for sharing your findings. You know, what I would do as a follow up experiment, is get your hands on an IR thermometer if you can, and check the actual temps just to confirm that the tempilaq ain't lying. </div></div>

Most Non-contact IR Thermomenters need atleast a 1"x1" area to read temperaures. I tried doing that with a high dollar unit from the fabricators shop i do wo business with. It would not read the case temperature at the necks.

Terry
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palmik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn you Terry, you know way too much detail about everything under the sun. </div></div>

Just the Important things! LOL. Beers and BULLETS! LOL

I really don't know SHIT! But, I know where to find the answers and when to ask the questions!

That my friend is some good advice!

Terry
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">inductive annealing seems to be a way to go</div></div>

I totally agree with you on this one. It just hasn't caught enough attention yet. But I think induction has huge potential in not only annealing, but in wireless technology too.
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What issue of PS was that in? Please, and thanks </div></div>

For those that have the old issues it was in the July 1996 print on pages 90-92.

Terry
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

mdesign,

In the past I've seen some wild claims as to what temperature is ideal for annealing, as you obviously have also. Doing a little digging on the 'Net for physical properties of cartridge brass usually nets some good info, if you have some spare time to dig through all the extra cruft. According to the published physical properties of the material, it should begin annealing around 800-850F. Lower temperatures may do varying degrees of stress relief (not a bad thing) and higher temperatures can speed up the annealing process, sometimes to the point of making the brass *too* soft.

I'll see if I can round up the document that comes with the Brass-o-matic annealing machines with their take on annealing temperatures and times - parts of it are actually a pretty good read even if you don't use one of their units.

Monte (another born-n-raised Cornhusker)
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

It has very little spring back with the pliers test but when I run them through my sizing die (minus the expander) the necks spring back the same .0015 as the cases annealed at 650F.

For that matter, so does the "dull red" and I would agree that this opccurs at the 1100-1400F as stated in the PS article. If you turn the neck bright red, the brass is so soft you can deform with your fingers.

Terry - very good article, actually I had saved that copy from back in the day because of that article. I don't have all the tools to test the variables but have proved (at least to my self) that you can get brass to soft using a visual method of heat measurement and it can still be shiny after it has be way over heated.

My thinking is that I will settle in on a process that is between 700-850F but I want to do some thermal imaging when I get a chance. Also will be interested in testing group size with annealing temps as a variable to see if it matters at all.

I already learned that group size opens up in my 300wsm as the necks work harden. Necks split, seating depth varied, ES opened up, that was how I got started at 650F and it made a difference.
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

My 300 wsm groups really closed in after annealing to the dull red in a dark room. It didnt seem to burn out the zinc. As for induction annealing, it is a great idea if you can find an induction heater for under $400. As the price comes down, that is the route I will take.
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

I just read a suggestion of using molten lead to anneal the cases.

It makes some sense since you can regulate the temp precisely and the contact will be symmetrical but it seems that the lead would stick. Oh, the old primers need to be left in as a gas block.

Any thoughts?
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rossneder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just read a suggestion of using molten lead to anneal the cases.

It makes some sense since you can regulate the temp precisely and the contact will be symmetrical but it seems that the lead would stick. Oh, the old primers need to be left in as a gas block.

Any thoughts? </div></div>

Forget that method due to fumes and cleaning off the lead.

Here you go:

What you need to know regarding annealing brass case necks

"Optimal Case Temperatures for Successful Annealing

Brass is an excellent conductor of heat. A flame applied at any point on a case for a short time will cause the rest of the case to heat very quickly. There are several temperatures at which brass is affected. Also, the time the brass remains at a given temperature will have an effect. Brass which has been "work hardened" (sometimes referred to as "cold worked") is unaffected by temperatures (Fahrenheit) up to 482 degrees (F) regardless of the time it is left at this temperature. At about 495 degrees (F) some changes in grain structure begins to occur, although the brass remains about as hard as before--it would take a laboratory analysis to see the changes that take place at this temperature.


The trick is to heat the neck just to the point where the grain structure becomes sufficiently large enough to give the case a springy property, leaving the body changed but little, and the head of the case virtually unchanged.


If cases are heated to about 600 degrees (F) for one hour, they will be thoroughly annealed--head and body included. That is, they will be ruined. (For a temperature comparison, pure lead melts at 621.3 degrees F).


The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.


Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft. From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:


1. Due to conduction, the amount of heat necessary to sufficiently anneal the case neck is great enough to ruin the rest of the case.


2. If the case necks are exposed to heat for a sufficient period of time, a lower temperature can be used.


3. The longer the case necks are exposed to heat, the greater the possibility that too much heat will be conducted into the body and head, thereby ruining the cases.


4. The higher the temperature, the less time the case necks will be exposed to heat, and there will be insufficient time for heat to be conducted into the body and head.


You can see that there are a couple of Catch-22s involved in this annealing business. On the one hand, the brass conducts heat quite rapidly, and a fairly high temperature with sufficient time must be attained to do the job. On the other hand, too much time cancels the effect, and we will be left with a case that is too soft and not suitable for anything but scrap. Obviously, there must be a solution; otherwise, not even the cartridge manufacturers could do it right."

I use a RCBS TrimMate to spin my cases and a torch. I do it in vrey dim light, so I can see the 'glow'.

Red or Cherry Red is too much heat.

A dull maroon is where you want to be according to the one guy in the linked article.

Chris
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

I own the Ken Light Annealing gizmo. excellent and it works like a charm. I just annealed 400 7WSM cases on Saturday - took about 2.5 hours, once the set up was done.

I use teh tempilique liquid to tell me temperature, and follow Ken's recommendation and use regular propane, not MAP...but you could use either one itf you set your flames for the proper brass temperature.

If you do a search for annealing you'll come up with toens of threads here and on the web. The 6mmbr site article is a good one and refers you to several others taht are also good.

JeffVN
 
Re: Evaluating Annealing Temperature

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I use the tempilique liquid to tell me temperature, and follow Ken's recommendation and use regular propane, not MAP...but you could use either one itf you set your flames for the proper brass temperature.JeffVN</div></div>

Don't be coy. What are Ken's recommendations?