expander dies
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Re: expander dies
My next step is to start using the Sinclair expander mandrel after neck sizing, but am looking for ideas. I'm not sure what you are asking about though...
My next step is to start using the Sinclair expander mandrel after neck sizing, but am looking for ideas. I'm not sure what you are asking about though...
Re: expander dies
trying to load the most concentric ammo and just wondering what this mite do to benifit me
trying to load the most concentric ammo and just wondering what this mite do to benifit me
Re: expander dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">trying to load the most concentric ammo and just wondering what this mite do to benifit me </div></div>
It will move the differences in neck thickness to the outside of the neck, that MAY help with Concentricity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">trying to load the most concentric ammo and just wondering what this mite do to benifit me </div></div>
It will move the differences in neck thickness to the outside of the neck, that MAY help with Concentricity.
Re: expander dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What expander dies do you recommend and when would i use an expanding die </div></div>
Try the Lyman M expander dies.
They just open up the case lips a little bit.
I don't feel the need to use them and the Redding bushing dies and comp seaters seem to make concentric ammo on my Dillon 550b.
Chris
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What expander dies do you recommend and when would i use an expanding die </div></div>
Try the Lyman M expander dies.
They just open up the case lips a little bit.
I don't feel the need to use them and the Redding bushing dies and comp seaters seem to make concentric ammo on my Dillon 550b.
Chris
Re: expander dies
I think the term 'expander die' is confusing everyone because it can be used in different contexts. The Lyman M die Chris mentioned is popular for opening up the case mouth just a tad so you can load lead bullets in rifle cases without shaving any lead off. I've never heard of any other use for it.
Then there's the expander die that comes with any 3-die pistol set.
And then there are the expander dies that Sinclair sells that use the mandrels to open up the neck on rifle brass. I use these quite a bit. I just ran 1,000 new cases through this die because the necks were way too small. Now I have necks that are perfect circles on the I.D., have I.D.s that are concentric with the case body, and are about .001 - .002 smaller than my bullets.
I think the term 'expander die' is confusing everyone because it can be used in different contexts. The Lyman M die Chris mentioned is popular for opening up the case mouth just a tad so you can load lead bullets in rifle cases without shaving any lead off. I've never heard of any other use for it.
Then there's the expander die that comes with any 3-die pistol set.
And then there are the expander dies that Sinclair sells that use the mandrels to open up the neck on rifle brass. I use these quite a bit. I just ran 1,000 new cases through this die because the necks were way too small. Now I have necks that are perfect circles on the I.D., have I.D.s that are concentric with the case body, and are about .001 - .002 smaller than my bullets.
Re: expander dies
Guys like to use the Lyman M dies to open the case mouths up just a tad, in order to get their jacketed bullets seated as straight as possible, initially in the seating stroke.
I have never felt the 'need' to use one, even when loading flat based jacketed bullets, but I have tracked them on Ebay and thought about getting the 30 cal version, just to see how it works.
One can also use the expander 'mandrel dies' for neck turning.
Chris
Guys like to use the Lyman M dies to open the case mouths up just a tad, in order to get their jacketed bullets seated as straight as possible, initially in the seating stroke.
I have never felt the 'need' to use one, even when loading flat based jacketed bullets, but I have tracked them on Ebay and thought about getting the 30 cal version, just to see how it works.
One can also use the expander 'mandrel dies' for neck turning.
Chris
Re: expander dies
The Sinclair expander die is the whip. Between it and my Giraud, I've never before had such excellent concentricity and consistent bullet seating.
I load on a Dillon 650, so the extra step is no big deal. I use a Forster bushing/bump die and the sinclair expander with a "neck turning" mandrel for .002" neck tension.
The Sinclair expander die is the whip. Between it and my Giraud, I've never before had such excellent concentricity and consistent bullet seating.
I load on a Dillon 650, so the extra step is no big deal. I use a Forster bushing/bump die and the sinclair expander with a "neck turning" mandrel for .002" neck tension.
Re: expander dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Sinclair expander die is the whip. Between it and my Giraud, I've never before had such excellent concentricity and consistent bullet seating.
I load on a Dillon 650, so the extra step is no big deal. I use a Forster bushing/bump die and the sinclair expander with a "neck turning" mandrel for .002" neck tension. </div></div>
Turbo54: are you loading for a magazine-fed bolt gun? I have been told that .004 is better for magazines. Less chance of seating depth change upon recoil, I believe is the rationale.
I have the Forster bushing bump die with a .329 bushing (.004 below loaded round outside dia for my mag fed bolt 308 in win brass) and was thinking about doing what you do with the mandrel. Do the mandrels come in different sizes or is .002 the accepted standard?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Sinclair expander die is the whip. Between it and my Giraud, I've never before had such excellent concentricity and consistent bullet seating.
I load on a Dillon 650, so the extra step is no big deal. I use a Forster bushing/bump die and the sinclair expander with a "neck turning" mandrel for .002" neck tension. </div></div>
Turbo54: are you loading for a magazine-fed bolt gun? I have been told that .004 is better for magazines. Less chance of seating depth change upon recoil, I believe is the rationale.
I have the Forster bushing bump die with a .329 bushing (.004 below loaded round outside dia for my mag fed bolt 308 in win brass) and was thinking about doing what you do with the mandrel. Do the mandrels come in different sizes or is .002 the accepted standard?
Re: expander dies
"Guys like to use the Lyman M dies to open the case mouths up just a tad, in order to get their jacketed bullets seated as straight as possible, initially in the seating stroke."
Roger that. And Sinclair's expander works much like Lyman's M except for lacking the M's very short 'starting' diameter that helps intitiate straight seating with both cast AND jacketed bullets.
All the 'bullet tension' we gonna get is well under 2 thou. Any smaller I.D. that that simply stretches the metal past it's elastic limit when we seat a bullet. A neck I.D. that's 1 or 2 thou undersize will grip bullets as firmly as one that's 3 or 4 thou undersize. See it for yourself; mic the diameter of a loaded neck, then pull the bullet and measure again - you will likely find only about 1 thou difference because that's as much 'spring back' as cartridge brass has. (You can find the diameter of your chamber neck the same way, just mic the diameter of a fired neck and add a thou to be very close.)
The smaller a neck I.D. is the more likely it is to produce runout during seating while adding exactly nothing to bullet grip.
What would I recommend? I used M dies for all my neck expanding for years and got good average concentricity. I've since switched to doing my 'FL' sizing with a body die and neck size with Lee's collet neck dies (no expander needed) and my average concentricty has improved a bit more.
"Guys like to use the Lyman M dies to open the case mouths up just a tad, in order to get their jacketed bullets seated as straight as possible, initially in the seating stroke."
Roger that. And Sinclair's expander works much like Lyman's M except for lacking the M's very short 'starting' diameter that helps intitiate straight seating with both cast AND jacketed bullets.
All the 'bullet tension' we gonna get is well under 2 thou. Any smaller I.D. that that simply stretches the metal past it's elastic limit when we seat a bullet. A neck I.D. that's 1 or 2 thou undersize will grip bullets as firmly as one that's 3 or 4 thou undersize. See it for yourself; mic the diameter of a loaded neck, then pull the bullet and measure again - you will likely find only about 1 thou difference because that's as much 'spring back' as cartridge brass has. (You can find the diameter of your chamber neck the same way, just mic the diameter of a fired neck and add a thou to be very close.)
The smaller a neck I.D. is the more likely it is to produce runout during seating while adding exactly nothing to bullet grip.
What would I recommend? I used M dies for all my neck expanding for years and got good average concentricity. I've since switched to doing my 'FL' sizing with a body die and neck size with Lee's collet neck dies (no expander needed) and my average concentricty has improved a bit more.
Re: expander dies
I may not be in the majority on this and will probably get fragged pretty good, but I use and really like my Lee Collet die. I like it because as it squeezes the neck it does so against a mandrel that is part of the die limiting the amount the neck can be sized. It provides .001 to .002 of neck tension right out of the box, it's also quite tunable if you don't mind polishing or using fine grit sand paper on the mandrel.
I may not be in the majority on this and will probably get fragged pretty good, but I use and really like my Lee Collet die. I like it because as it squeezes the neck it does so against a mandrel that is part of the die limiting the amount the neck can be sized. It provides .001 to .002 of neck tension right out of the box, it's also quite tunable if you don't mind polishing or using fine grit sand paper on the mandrel.
Re: expander dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: targaflorio</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Sinclair expander die is the whip. Between it and my Giraud, I've never before had such excellent concentricity and consistent bullet seating.
I load on a Dillon 650, so the extra step is no big deal. I use a Forster bushing/bump die and the sinclair expander with a "neck turning" mandrel for .002" neck tension. </div></div>
Turbo54: are you loading for a magazine-fed bolt gun? I have been told that .004 is better for magazines. Less chance of seating depth change upon recoil, I believe is the rationale.
I have the Forster bushing bump die with a .329 bushing (.004 below loaded round outside dia for my mag fed bolt 308 in win brass) and was thinking about doing what you do with the mandrel. Do the mandrels come in different sizes or is .002 the accepted standard? </div></div>
I'm with fuzzball 100%. I might point out, however, that the material condition (annealed vs sized/worked a lot) will affect how much neck tension is possible.
When a metal gets harder, it also gets stronger - both ultimate tensile strength AND yield strength.
I use the "neck turning" mandrel, whuch leaves the ID at .306". I use this for annealed brass in both my autoloader and bolt actions, and feed from the mag with no bullet setback issues.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: targaflorio</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Sinclair expander die is the whip. Between it and my Giraud, I've never before had such excellent concentricity and consistent bullet seating.
I load on a Dillon 650, so the extra step is no big deal. I use a Forster bushing/bump die and the sinclair expander with a "neck turning" mandrel for .002" neck tension. </div></div>
Turbo54: are you loading for a magazine-fed bolt gun? I have been told that .004 is better for magazines. Less chance of seating depth change upon recoil, I believe is the rationale.
I have the Forster bushing bump die with a .329 bushing (.004 below loaded round outside dia for my mag fed bolt 308 in win brass) and was thinking about doing what you do with the mandrel. Do the mandrels come in different sizes or is .002 the accepted standard? </div></div>
I'm with fuzzball 100%. I might point out, however, that the material condition (annealed vs sized/worked a lot) will affect how much neck tension is possible.
When a metal gets harder, it also gets stronger - both ultimate tensile strength AND yield strength.
I use the "neck turning" mandrel, whuch leaves the ID at .306". I use this for annealed brass in both my autoloader and bolt actions, and feed from the mag with no bullet setback issues.
Re: expander dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwizl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I may not be in the majority on this and will probably get fragged pretty good, but I use and really like my Lee Collet die. I like it because as it squeezes the neck it does so against a mandrel that is part of the die limiting the amount the neck can be sized. It provides .001 to .002 of neck tension right out of the box, it's also quite tunable if you don't mind polishing or using fine grit sand paper on the mandrel. </div></div>
I'm not gonna frag you on this. While I've never used that product, I know lots of folks swear by it!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwizl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I may not be in the majority on this and will probably get fragged pretty good, but I use and really like my Lee Collet die. I like it because as it squeezes the neck it does so against a mandrel that is part of the die limiting the amount the neck can be sized. It provides .001 to .002 of neck tension right out of the box, it's also quite tunable if you don't mind polishing or using fine grit sand paper on the mandrel. </div></div>
I'm not gonna frag you on this. While I've never used that product, I know lots of folks swear by it!
Re: expander dies
"I'm with fuzzball 100%. I might point out, however, that the material condition (annealed vs sized/worked a lot) will affect how much neck tension is possible. --- When a metal gets harder, it also gets stronger - both ultimate tensile strength AND yield strength."
Turbo, you're correct but the end differences are quite small and I dint wanna get into that level of discussion here!
"I'm with fuzzball 100%. I might point out, however, that the material condition (annealed vs sized/worked a lot) will affect how much neck tension is possible. --- When a metal gets harder, it also gets stronger - both ultimate tensile strength AND yield strength."
Turbo, you're correct but the end differences are quite small and I dint wanna get into that level of discussion here!
Re: expander dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
All the 'bullet tension' we gonna get is well under 2 thou. Any smaller I.D. that that simply stretches the metal past it's elastic limit when we seat a bullet. A neck I.D. that's 1 or 2 thou undersize will grip bullets as firmly as one that's 3 or 4 thou undersize. See it for yourself; mic the diameter of a loaded neck, then pull the bullet and measure again - you will likely find only about 1 thou difference because that's as much 'spring back' as cartridge brass has. (You can find the diameter of your chamber neck the same way, just mic the diameter of a fired neck and add a thou to be very close.)
The smaller a neck I.D. is the more likely it is to produce runout during seating while adding exactly nothing to bullet grip.
</div></div>
This is exactly correct and no matter how many times I've tried to explain it there is always a group that thinks they actually get .004" worth of neck tension just because their necks are sized that small.
----
On annealed vs non-annealed the worked hardened brass may not yield as much which will provide more spring back but the softer neck with less spring back provides more actual bullet grip than the hard neck. This is why I keep my brass annealed at least by every 4th or 5th loading. This keeps the bullet grip consistent and on par with new brass, the softer neck also expands easier and is less likely to induce run out when the expander button is pulled through. YMMV
EWP
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
All the 'bullet tension' we gonna get is well under 2 thou. Any smaller I.D. that that simply stretches the metal past it's elastic limit when we seat a bullet. A neck I.D. that's 1 or 2 thou undersize will grip bullets as firmly as one that's 3 or 4 thou undersize. See it for yourself; mic the diameter of a loaded neck, then pull the bullet and measure again - you will likely find only about 1 thou difference because that's as much 'spring back' as cartridge brass has. (You can find the diameter of your chamber neck the same way, just mic the diameter of a fired neck and add a thou to be very close.)
The smaller a neck I.D. is the more likely it is to produce runout during seating while adding exactly nothing to bullet grip.
</div></div>
This is exactly correct and no matter how many times I've tried to explain it there is always a group that thinks they actually get .004" worth of neck tension just because their necks are sized that small.
----
On annealed vs non-annealed the worked hardened brass may not yield as much which will provide more spring back but the softer neck with less spring back provides more actual bullet grip than the hard neck. This is why I keep my brass annealed at least by every 4th or 5th loading. This keeps the bullet grip consistent and on par with new brass, the softer neck also expands easier and is less likely to induce run out when the expander button is pulled through. YMMV
EWP
Re: expander dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so then what is a good way to start annealing
</div></div>
Not to be rude, but there are a TON of threads about annealing. Please read up - then ask questions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so then what is a good way to start annealing
</div></div>
Not to be rude, but there are a TON of threads about annealing. Please read up - then ask questions.
Re: expander dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwizl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I may not be in the majority on this and will probably get fragged pretty good, but I use and really like my Lee Collet die. I like it because as it squeezes the neck it does so against a mandrel that is part of the die limiting the amount the neck can be sized. It provides .001 to .002 of neck tension right out of the box, it's also quite tunable if you don't mind polishing or using fine grit sand paper on the mandrel. </div></div>
I'm not gonna frag you on this. While I've never used that product, I know lots of folks swear by it!</div></div>
I'm new to this whole neck tension thing and actually started another thread about it where you had some great advice turbo. After learning about turning mandrels from you and also reading and using my google foo on bushing dies I found some info on the collet dies. I was planning on going with a Forster neck bump bushing die and using the Sinclair mandrel to get the correct neck tension but I found the Lee collet die at my local gun store for 16 bucks and figured what the hell. Did some more reading about the die and how to set it up, polished the mandrel a little, got it set up properly in my press, did a few test pieces of brass and was very happy with the results. The die is very consistant and I really like the fact that when the neck is compressed it pushed against the madrel which keeps the ID very true.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwizl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I may not be in the majority on this and will probably get fragged pretty good, but I use and really like my Lee Collet die. I like it because as it squeezes the neck it does so against a mandrel that is part of the die limiting the amount the neck can be sized. It provides .001 to .002 of neck tension right out of the box, it's also quite tunable if you don't mind polishing or using fine grit sand paper on the mandrel. </div></div>
I'm not gonna frag you on this. While I've never used that product, I know lots of folks swear by it!</div></div>
I'm new to this whole neck tension thing and actually started another thread about it where you had some great advice turbo. After learning about turning mandrels from you and also reading and using my google foo on bushing dies I found some info on the collet dies. I was planning on going with a Forster neck bump bushing die and using the Sinclair mandrel to get the correct neck tension but I found the Lee collet die at my local gun store for 16 bucks and figured what the hell. Did some more reading about the die and how to set it up, polished the mandrel a little, got it set up properly in my press, did a few test pieces of brass and was very happy with the results. The die is very consistant and I really like the fact that when the neck is compressed it pushed against the madrel which keeps the ID very true.
