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Advanced Marksmanship expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

I've discussed this before with military snipers and sniper instructors. The rule of thumb or standard is that a trained military sniper should be able to make a first round hit at 600 meters on the first shot.

This is about right on the money. !!!!
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Kevin - I have not read the report as of yet but they must be including some really squirrley wind days. The drop off is pretty fast and then levels out aobut right. From my experience I would expect a first round hit at about 95 to 100 per ent of time to about 400 meters(students seldom miss the 400 to 450 target on the unk distance exam), about 85 to 95 % of the time at 500 meters. 500 meters seems to be the magic area as about then things get dicey. I would expect 600 meters (about 660 yards) to be about 75 to 90 percent. Now these are with the 7.62mm M118LR. With the A191 190 gr I would expect a bit of an increase in hit probablity. Now once the report gets to the 800 and 900 meters lines (880 and 990 yards respectively) I owuld have to agree on their assessment. Fall angle, wind variance, range estimation, etc causes a massive amount of "little stuff" to add up quickly into a miss.

This is ONLY taken from my experience and my observed experience with instructors and students. A big differnce will occur whether the sniper is on a KD or UNK range.

I have downloaded the info paper and will absorb what my little brain can absorb.
grin.gif


 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

Actaully that is asking alot of a sniper. On a KD range that may be approachable but even then on a squirrely day you would be hard pressed. On a unknown distance range it would harder as a small error in range estimation could throw off both shot and wind call.

Again bullet weight and MV will increase first round hit but when you are talking about planning purposes for a mission, never plan for hte best and get horribly surprised.
grin.gif
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

Rick, my brother, good to see you post here.

Hope all is well

Should be no problem on tan for next order by the way. Huge shipment coming in in two weeks.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

I gave the report a look, very interesting!

Not surprisingly the main source of horizontal errors is the wind, and it is much larger than vertical error. For vertical error the ammo/rifle spread and range determination. See fig 6 and 7 on page 24, all the other errors are very small.

I think the bias error in wind of 5 mph is a rather large for good conditions, as is the shot to variation of 3 mph. Probably an experienced team can do much better in a calm day or with a mild constant wind at a favorable angle. This good team + good conditions will dramatically improve the performance to near the "fire control" values.

The range error is assumed to be 5% of the range, and I think that wiht a modern LRF an experienced user can get much better than this in good conditions.

If we use the "fire control" values for the SR25 shooting M118LR (in theory very close to a M24 shooting the same ammo), 90% of the teams should get a hit on a E silhouette with this number of shots or less, starting with a CBS (see table C-3):

range (m), number of shots
100 - 1
200 - 1
300 - 1
400 - 1
500 - 2
600 - 2
700 - 4
800 - 5
900 - 7
1000 - 11

This looks more or less OK for unknown distance and "good conditions".
The numbers for 900-1000 still look high to me. Perhaps the assumption of perfect statistical distribution is not true?

Once zeroed, perhaps only the shot to shot variation should be taken into account, same 90% confidence level:

range (m), number of shots
100 - 1
200 - 1
300 - 1
400 - 1
500 - 1
600 - 1
700 - 1
800 - 2
900 - 2
1000 - 3
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

Let me put it differently. Under average conditions at Bodines, the LR HP competitors are shooting 40 rounds for score at a 20" 10-ring and a 10" X-ring. The winners are scoring somewhere in the 380's out of a 400 possible. The means they are scoring an average of 95% hits at 1000yd on a 20" target. This is after getting unlimited sighters/foulers, and doing the sighters and score rounds in a total of 30 minutes. The winnuing F Class shooters are doing similar scores on a target with a 10" 10-ring, and a 5" X-Ring.

The difference between CCB and sighted fire is very significant.

Greg
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

These stats do not surprise me at all. Last year I shot a course with FBI-SRT and Army SF guys during this 3 day course.

EVERY morning first thing involved a CBS at roughly 437 yards at a head sized steel target, one shooter at a time down the line. The firing line consisted of roughly 38 shooters, out of that only less than 75 percent managed a 1st round CBS each morning at this range. Without going into great detail of the over all course on the last day the test was "one shot pass or fail" for your record of completion cert. The qualifier consisted of a time constraint of 5 minutes to hump (Up Hill) an undisclosed distance to the shooting position in a ROUGH ravine and engage an UND solution, which turned out to be a hostage scenario. The range to target was under 300 yards with the hostage obscuring our target by about 50% of the body mass exposed, with of course only so much time remaining for a team to send the bullet to your target of responsibility . After we completed our shot for record we were sat down to watch the next team come charging up the hill for their attempt to qualify with their peers watching.. I suspect to add pressure on us.

The long and short of it is a little over 25% of the class failed the course.... I remember counting the certificates being awarded at the time to arrive at this rough percentage and to the best of my recollection today these numbers are fairly accurate, not that they count for anything... just an observation I made at the time.
One of the design objectives of this course was clearly managing simulated pressure and stress, which I found to be a great experience and confidence builder personally.


Aug ><>
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

None of the above figures on hit statistics take into acount "target effect", merely a hit on a E-Type silhouette.

Said hit may not have any incapication value at all, and hits that have a 1 second incapacitation value require much more precise placement, hits that have a 30 second incapacitation value require precise placement, 5 minute incapacitation requires less precise placement, 30 minute incapacitation requires a fairly decent hit, and many hits will not cause any incapacitation at all.

So when you factor in target effect on this, some of those above figures become a joke.

Augustis' experience as posted has a much more realistic view on what has been found to matter most recently in the bad places.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

When I was in, '90-'95, us Marine Snipers were required to make ccb incapacitating shots at 300yds and less, all conditions. this took into account possible hostage scenerios requiring brain stem shots. the line between the nose and knot on back of head, intercecting that even if at a quartering angle. we used manequin heads and the styrofoam wig ones too. due to mostly urban settings angle calc was of major importance. out to a grand a killing second shot was reuired within 2.5 seconds, with spotter calling hold. we used to shoot boobie traps and mines in somalia, that was our practice and zero time.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Interesting discussion, not trying to hijack but...

What are the measurements of an "E-type silhouette" target? Are they the same style target as used for M16 qualifications @ >150 meters? Thank you.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

I never fired on a combatant trying to "reduce" him.

A dune coon whacked on pcp can take one...lie on his back and send you thirty from his ak.

Books are great.....I will admit I haven't read the Army report, will download it now and take it with me fishing this weekend.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

As I have become interested and more experienced in long range shooting I have gained an appreciation for how difficult it really is. I have learned that all my life Hollywood has lied to me and snipers don’t always hit with their first shot. From what I have read the distance for a first round hit seems to be around 600 yards but I am interested to hear what those with experience have to say.

I'm new here. But not new to the game. seems like he's looking for opinions.

oops i didn't do the fancy quote thing right...anyway told half of this is from original question.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

I don't think most people realize that a hit doesn't mean a kill, the actual area of vital organs is a small one, to be able to get that accurate of a shot in field conditions on a more than likely moving target are very slim. I think 400-600yds is going to be the max and don't forget that once you take the shot they aren't going to stand there, they will then take cover and start to shoot back.

Shooting at a real enemy is alot different than shooting in training or in a competition, you can add stress and movement but it is hard to simulate actual combat conditions. The biggest training benefit is having the most accurate data for your gun which means trigger time on the same gun, the data doesn't lie, you have to have confidence in your rifle system. Also most teams prior to taking the shot will try to preplan or coodinate with another team what they think is going to happen before taking the first shot or where you think the enemy is going to go to take cover so you can be ready to take that second shot. Team work is key when selecting and engaging multiple targets to limit them from finding your position and trying to get them all before they escape or take cover.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, this subject started out interesting. I have often wondered how good professional shooters and their rifles can shoot. I shoot a KMW built 308 so surely my rifle is at least comparable, but I have had no training whatsoever. With my rifle I'm pretty sure I can make a hit on a torso target at 900 yds 75% of the time, with practice shots and conditions staying the same. The problem is that a professional has his rifle zeroed at x degrees F., x% humidity, at x bar. pressure and your shooting at 2500ft above sealevel. Now you deploy and everything has changed dramatically, now what do you do? In order to answer some of my own issues I bought a Kestrel weather unit. It explained some of my issues such as why my rifle zeroed one week is 2" off the next week at same distance. I think pressure and humidity factor as much as temp. Now you factor I reload to basically benchrest standards some of my rds are too tight for a true tactical situation but my targets never shoot back. Someday I will go shoot with someone who can explain why bullets do certain things one day and different the next. I have wondered a lot about how a sniper or operator can take a rifle out of a case that might have traveled half way around the world and make the shot when it counts. just my ramblings krw </div></div>

the reason that is possible is the hundreds of rounds fired and documented in a log book. at x humidity, x temp, x wind, x range, and x, pressure, soon you get your conditions, and you can adjust based on past knowledge. reffereing to your log book. i.e. at this condition i shot 4 inches low of my zero then i shot 23 inches high at these conditions, get down range and you can calculate based on past shots, and not just wind and range "guesses"
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Someone traveling half way around the world would get his new zero at that location.

I have thousands of rounds fired and recorded in a log book. Even going from California to Texas for a match is a challenge and I would rather rely on actually getting a new zero then a log book.

Half a world away, I would say a log book is somewhat helpful...but the reality is that someone would get a new zero at that location. Even with a log book, a trip from CA to Irak or Afghanistan would be quite extreme to say the least. I know from shooting matches all over the West Coast that my log book may not have the answer for such a condition...

And honestly...my log book sometimes made me miss too while actual instinct and perceptions were telling me otherwise. Presently, I rely more on experience and instinct then the log book.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Some military people get dropped into places where they can't re-zero and are hot from touch-down to bang. They have to know their zeroes otherwise where 99.99% of the police don't have that problem, and most competitors have the ability to re-zero.

Previous experience from my 475 and 700 ASL 100 yard zeroes has had me within 1" anywhere in the US and in a few foreign countries.

300 yards was another story overseas. Like 2 MOA versus 1 MOA.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

As I said in the other thread...

From experience, my zero will vary as much as 1 inch at 100 yards depending on some locations.

As Angeles Crest,I will be dead on at 100 yards but if I go to Saugus, CA I will be 1/2 inch higher.

Not "sometimes" but always and thus I correct for that.

Riverside, CA is 1/2 Below Angeles and I will be dead on.

Doing 2 matches in Sacramento this year. I was 1 inches higher in Sacramento then in Los Angeles, both times.

I probably did close to 15 matches and countless shooting hours in various locations from Oregon, Nevada, California and Arizona in the last 2 years. Variations of 1 MOA at 100 yards are very usual and real in my experience. I don't recall variations that were above 1 MOA.


Now, the above is not a big deal unless you shoot a high precision match and your targets at 1 MOA or less at 100 yards. Sometimes our targets in local matches are 0.75 MOAs at 100 yards.

On most of the matches I've done, probably 50% of the stages are within 300-400 yards and it's high precision.

BTW zeroing my rifle can mean shooting at many distances ranging from 100 to 1000K - not just 100 yards. When I have the possibility to "zero" the rifle before a match, I will shoot at as many distances as I can and record how the bullet act in the new environment.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Some interesting stuff here.

One thing I try to keep separate in my data book is "known distance" shots and "Unknown distance" shots.
Once the yardage must be estimated rather than lasered my first round probability goes way down.
It doesn't seem to matter nearly as much if it is at a KD range or out in a pasture somewhere as long as I have a solid known yardage to base everything else (wind, temp, angle, etc) upon.

I also see that my shots taken on a target range, either prone with a sling or F-class style, have minimal real world relationship to getting hits at unknown distance targets under real world field conditions. I shot several clean scores before the F-class target size was cut in half. Sorry Greg.

About all standard high power ranges are good for is getting good reference data for a particular rifle and load or learning to read the wind by utilizing the range flags.

We have 3 or 4 UKD matches a year here in Oklahoma where somebody sets up a whole series of steel targets out to 1000 yards in a pasture or across a series of dry creek ravines. The bulk of the shots are between 500 and 900 yards with the targets being variable shapes but less than 1 mil in size. They are usually rectangular or round in shape. They try to mimic real world shots taken at sitting coyotes or feeding deer.
Even though the targets are placed out at random distances (uneven yardages), if I am able to laser the targets to get a definite known yardage my first round hit probability is 68% for all three matches combined. I did not break down the shots by yardage but every shot is logged and could be broken down if I wished to do the math.
At the matches where I did not use the laser and had to estimate the yardage with milling my first round hit count dropped to 48%.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

I was a SDM my first tour in OIF. After I attended "Sniper School" I returned to Iraq as a BGD Sniper. I doubt my opinion will count very much with the distinguished posters on this sight but here goes.
While at the range with others of my trade I noticed that many more CCB misses started occurring at 600 meters and gradually got worse. I think our ammo, M118LR, might have played a slight role. 5 Sniper buds and I shot our personal boom stiks once a month with a much higher percentage of CCB hits but not error free. Our custom rigs, mine being a GA Precision, obviously have more accuracy potential, but the ammo we used was hand loaded and out performs M118LR in all of our rifles.
Training and combat are two different animals and those who know the difference will confirm that seldom is the occasion that he battlefield lends itself to "range type" accuracy.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

pardon my ignorance but what is a BGD sniper?
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

nope snippers are battalion level assets
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

Not if your job is at brigade level. Got the T-shirt Windowlicker. I don't wear it that often though.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

rare bird. never heard of one
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hi Speed</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was a SDM my first tour in OIF. After I attended "Sniper School" I returned to Iraq as a BGD Sniper. I doubt my opinion will count very much with the distinguished posters on this sight but here goes.
While at the range with others of my trade I noticed that many more CCB misses started occurring at 600 meters and gradually got worse. I think our ammo, M118LR, might have played a slight role. 5 Sniper buds and I shot our personal boom stiks once a month with a much higher percentage of CCB hits but not error free. Our custom rigs, mine being a GA Precision, obviously have more accuracy potential, but the ammo we used was hand loaded and out performs M118LR in all of our rifles.
Training and combat are two different animals and those who know the difference will confirm that seldom is the occasion that he battlefield lends itself to "range type" accuracy. </div></div>

HiSpeed, Don't put all the members here in the same catagory, there are numerous posters here with tons of background and knowledge. Though I understand some of what you are saying and until a few months ago I would have agreed with you. Recently I trained with a group of guys and two of them changed the way I think about CCB (Cold Clean Bore... For those of you not paying attention).

It started when we were sitting around talking about CB shots and the FOM. If I remeber correctly it was LTRDavid (member on SH) who commented on that CB shot being off was more about a Cold System than a Cold Bore. We talked about it and broke it down to just not being totally with it or in your zone if you will. Basically your brain and thought process being cold has more to do with it than anything else.

The guy who validated this was KMussack's son, Andy. Andy has been shooting since he could hold a weapon I am sure, hell KMussack is so serious he built an indoor range in his basement. Anyways, during this training we shot primarily between 350-1200 yards. The conditions were cool, windy, angles, elevation from 5K-6K feet above sea level and ackward positions. Andy made numerous first round hits with a cold bore. His rifle is a decent rifle but nothing crazy, I doubt his ammo was any better than what everone else was shooting. The thing that put him on target before most of us was that he had his mind right prior to pressing the trigger.

I also know of a few guys who are Gov types that who were running SR25swith 168 that were out shooting boltguns with heavier match grade ammo. Nothing special, they just knew the FOM inside and out and applied them each time.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

Andy is looking a bit more mature with the berd and mustache. Think he might have gained 20 or 30 pounds too.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

I noticed the number of rounds to hit DID NOT include any adjustment after the first shot.

I also think it's reasonable to assume that the increased recoil of the 300WM, 338LM and 50BMG would require more training (for most)to keep proficent. So I believe some of the gains in HP would go down with the normal amount of training time if just the weapon was switched.

I'd also be interested to see how the SPR would stack up.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhuskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rick, Please continue to comment, don't refrain.

There is an ongoing study on some things related to hits and the methodology is going to be as follows:

a. Highest speed low drag outfit puts forth X number of shooters and the results average will be taken. This eliminates the gun specific guy who does it all on his own and is way better than the rest.

b. The next high speed unit puts forth X number of shooters and the results average will be taken.

c. The third tier will put forth X number of shooters and the results average will be taken.

d. Standard line units will put forth X number of shooters an the results average will be taken.

e. Cooks, Bakers, and Support units will put forth X number of shooters and the results average will be taken.

The results are predictable in that Unit A will have the highest hit probability due to their mission specific training and dedication (and resources allocated) to training. Then Unit B, then Unit C, etc, until we get to the support units.

The individual figures for each group will provide training needs for each group to meet a set criteria.

The average of Units A, B, and C, being who they are will be further averaged to give a cross the board average of special units that give higher priority to training and mission specific results, and the figures will be correspondingly appropriate.

Unit D, all regular units with similar mission specific requirements will have lower results and hit probability based on unit training allowances balanced against other unit duty requirements that require daily attention.

Unit E is being done simply because they have to meet specific requirements to function in combat and have any probability of survivable.

This methodology has been proven in military testing and the results parrallel after action reports with an amazing correlation of correctness. This methodology provides the solid data and mathematics to give a reasonable picture of what is going to happen, given attainable training requirements.

FWIW, the hit results quoted with the KAC rifle were obtained using the above methodolgy and are accurate.
Using proven Sniper weapons systems, the hit results go up, some, but not to the degree many would think.

Any of you guys who want to make the mistake of questioning Longrange1947 are so far out in left field that you would be much better off keeping your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove any doubt the rest of the world had about your being a fool.

If that statement offends any of you, TS, because you obviously don't know who he is, what background he has, or know that he is one of the longest running people involved with this type of stuff related to Sniping, and recognized as such in the professional Sniper community. </div></div>

100 yards = 1.00
200 yards = 1.00
300 yards = 0.93
400 yards = 0.69
500 yards = 0.46
600 yards = 0.27
700 yards = 0.15
800 yards = 0.08
900 yards = 0.05

I'm getting in on this so late...

jhuskey,

While agree that the facts kmussack presented are I believe fact. My problem in this whole deal is that even changing the scope of a set of facts can make them untrue. What kmussack presented appears to be of a broader scope than what I would expect from a unit that typically constantly trains in sniper warfare. I wouldn't however expect first round hits at 900 m all the time but from a trained unit I would expect it more than 5% of the time. I would certainly expect better than what I'm seeing, especially since these are E-type silouettes. This 'set of facts' is generally meant to pass along to a commander who is about to undertake a situation/mission. The problem is in those little intangibles that are never turned into some degree of tangibility. Say I'm given a mission and my best shooter is on the team. His ability is easily twice that of the posted 'facts'. We know we can do the mission on a given amount of resources. However, those above ok'ing the planning, have decreed that three or four safeguards have to be put in place because the 'facts' say that a sniper is only so good. Now the safegaurds have put in and the mission is in jeopardy because it's too big and someone on the other side is going to get wind of something moving in their direction.
On the other hand as you pointed out if I had to do this mission with some cooks, bakers and candlestick makers and some truck mechanics who among them, had a group that liked to go to the range and do some serious shooting...and were good, I still wouldn't feel like we could do the mission. These guys aren't trained to the level they need to be in living in the 12 inch world. So, without the proper scope of a set of facts they are useless. Like a really clear picture, you just don't know what telephoto the cameraman took it with... If you need to know the distance in the picture you really don't know anything then.

My point in all this isn't to chew on you. It's that military planning quite often doesn't take into account all the skill sets at it's disposal in which to operate. It seems as often as not in an advanced situation we operate like we weren't here yesterday and don't know what's going on.

I would personally expect under normal conditions that 600 m first round hits would have a high probability. and the set of facts the kmussack gave us are too broad for a high level team.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

I observed some season guys drive an SPR and they did pretty darn well with them out to 635 yards.

it took them about 4 shots average in a fairly normal South Texas Wind, but they were quick on the trigger so the 4 shots seemed like a normal 2 with anyone else.

One of the two shooters has all his recorded kills with an SPR and felt it did the job better if not just as well as any 308 given his area of operation and objectives. The size, weight and recoil of the rifle was all in the plus column for this guy, so as long as people fell when he hit them, there was no question regarding knockdown/stopping power. Shot placement seemed to rule the day.

But I think it comes down to mission more than one rifle to solve all the problems encountered on the battlefield. Sure the best rifle to have is always going to be, the one currently in your hand, and professionals definitely separate themselves by driving that rifle successfully regardless of the situation. But there is no one rifle rule, it's either going to be too long, too heavy, not long enough, not heavy enough, too much range, not enough range... you name it. Which is what makes the 308 a nice compromise.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

The report looks like it was made to quantify the performance gain in developing new technology. It does not look like part of operational planning.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

TMK,

That's an interesting perspective. I never looked at it that way. Interesting there is no comparison between the technology used and what they think would be better. I would be curious to see what the numbers would be for operational planning. Mind you, the largest element I ever had anything to do with any planning for was a company sized element at a time. And that wasn't in shooting. It was more 'semi-field' training.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

Hmmm, with my .308 - the longest range, pissing rain, finger freezing 2'C, cold/clean bore shot (field conditions at their finest) i have taken with utmost confidence was 478 yards, although i would be equally happy with 600yards too, but past that i wouldn't be as confident.
Every shooter is different, between individual ability, to individual SWS, best thing you can do is see how well you can make your system shoot to your own ability, and always try and improve it, to the longest range you can, wind being the greatest pain in the knob!!
If your orienting yourself towards the military sniper then your practical bullseye is - belt buckle to chin, armpit to armpit, at the designated range.
The headshot is always good but thats more of a SWAT prerequisite to instantly incapacitate a hostage taker etc. But no harm being confident to take one as a military sniper too!!!
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round h

IIRC my longest CCB shot was 980 yards from the top of a Mesa in Hawthorne, NV to the desert floor. It was under stress from the clock, not from incoming fire. It was far from a combat situation. More of a test of the equipment. It's value is anecdotal and more to show what is possible when you train constantly. Every sniper in my platoon connected their CCB shot that morning. All were over 600yards. I just happened to draw the farthest target or the instructor wanted to piss in my wheaties for the morning.

When I left active service my skill level was high enough that I could count on a center mass hit at 600yards and in. If for some reason I goosed it, my spotter could get me on in a second if I wasn't able to observe the impact.

Now, since I am still training on my own dime and I don't have access to a skilled spotter, I would only count on a CCB hit to 400 yards. This is the longest range I have access to on a regular basis. Unless I totally screw the pooch on the wind call I am going to make a hit.

I would not attempt a CNS/Hostage shot at over 100.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

I've got to ask.

I am a non-sniper who has never been formally trained but still loves long range shooting. I do have +10 years of Army service including serving as a grunt in the 82nd Airborne. Still, I'm at a loss.

Why is the military "stuck" (for lack of a better term) on using the .308 Winchester?

Personally, I love the .308 Winchester. It is a good, all purpose cartridge. Short to mid range, it's a steady, great performer.

But if I had to shoot 1000 meters over and over again at a human sized targets with a 12-14 pound rifle system, I'd much rather shoot a 115 grain DTAC bullet from a .243 Winchester or a Tubbs 6mmXC cartridge.

I have used these cartridges with great results (on targets, not humans) in varying conditions including "swirling" winds coming down the mountains and criss-crossing the range (Cascade Rifle and Pistol Club, Ravensdale, WA.).

I still have the black center (6") of a 600 yard target that shows 14 of 15 shots at 600 yards shooting in these insane conditions. The far superior .308 marksmen shooting next to me printed +18" shot groups. I was not "on" that day, it was the weather conditions that were so bad.

A 115 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps and up still has a lot of neutralizing power at end of flight (600yds to 1000m). So lack of knock down power doesn't make sense to me.

Seeing how dirty these two wars are that we are fighting, why not make the switch? Our guys are shooting up mountains at long ranges. Why not give them a better performing cartridge? It's not like the military can't gear up and re-tool from .308 Winchester to .243 Winchester?

The answer has to be obvious and something I am overlooking. Please show me the error of my ways.

.243 Winchester

Thanks!

 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

The bullet is too light for barrier penetration.

But the military is not "stuck" with the .308.

Various units are using .300 Winchester Magnums and .338 Lapua for longer reach, and then there are the .50 BMGs in MacMillans and Barretts.

The .300 Win Mag in the government A191 load is pushing a 190 grain bullet at 2900 fps, which beats the .243 hands down.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

And the .338 Lapua is not just for longer reach and/or barrier penetration: the high BC allows 'guaranteed' first round hits on a 4" x 6" target at 300 meters (meaning that this can be made a standard).
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Got to shoot with Kevin 'n Andy (hey, that has a sorta familiar ring to it...) 'bout a month or two ago. That Andy is Smokin' good... (and I'm not talkin' tobacky).

Greg
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

This has been a very cool discussion, very insightful. I'm new to the sight and my long range shooting has been limited to long range varmit shooting (300-600 yard - rock chucks & coyotes). Yet, I want to just mention a competition I watched a couple of years ago on the military channel:

Two man teams. Some ranges were known, other's weren't, stress induced my running, spotter & shooter carrying one another to the shooting station, times shoots,etc. Teams from LE agencies, Air Force, Canada, Australia, Regular Army and some Guard (no Marines). Seems like it was over about 3 days. All were using .308s, but bolts & autos were present (I remember at least one SR-25). No lasers allowed, various types of targets, and I don't remember any targets over 600M. If I remember correctly the winning team was about 80% hits. I just thought it was interesting because these guys weren't "professional shooters," but they were "professional" shooters. They showed skill, but also the difficulty regularly making that CB hit at distance when stress, sun, wind, temperature, etc., change every day.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Hey Guys about that KAC SASS or XM110. I got out this past March with a fractured T-11. My old company was having to turn over all of thier M24's, and take the SASS. Needless to say before they left for Afghanistan they had already had problems with 2 out of 4 of the damn things. The SASS is supposedly the Sniper weapon, however it's also the spotter weapon. The Designated Marksman Rifles are supposed to be the M21, with a Leupold. Due to a shortage of Sniper qualified personell, The SASS was being carried by our DM's. Oh and no one has access to the M24, because it's sitting here in the States waiting on the Army to decide what to do with it. Yet another bit of wisdom bestowed upon us by some dumbfuck officers. I've heard rumors that they may upgrade the M24 to .300win mag, but that don't do shit for the guys over there right now. As for the expectations, I wouldn't know about a schooled sniper, but I know that if it was daylight, I was in a tower/position, not dead balls tired, and I had a stationary target I could nail his ass at 500yds, only 200-300 at night depending on the moonlight. Didn't have the PVS-22 on my shit. Any farther than that and on a shitty day I wouldn't bet on first round hits. Just watch diligently for that impact and correct from there fast.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Hope this helps... taken from wikipedia so I'm not 100% sure on the reality of this:

"# KD range includes shooting at the 300, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, and 1000 yard lines. 5 rounds are fired at each yard line. During this phase of training, Marines must become experts at the fundamentals of marksmanship. They must also become experts at calling wind and weather. During this portion two students work together, one on the gun and the other behind the spotting scope calling wind. If a student is not proficient at calling wind, they will cause their partner to fail, not themselves. After the first student fires his rounds, the two switch positions. After each yard line, the students must quickly throw on their packs and grab all their equipment and run to the next yardline. EVERYTHING at sniper school is a race, and it pays to be a winner. The course of fire for qualification is as follows:

* 300, 500, & 600 - 3 Stationary and 2 Movers
* 700 - 3 Stationary and 2 Stop and Go Movers
* 800 - 3 Stationary and 2 Bobbers
* 900 & 1000 - 5 Stationary

# Out of 35 Rounds, 28 rounds must be in the black to qualify on the range."



" *
o The UKD (Unknown Distance) and Stalking portion kicks off as soon as Phase 1 is completed. During this phase students will become experts at engaging targets at unknown distances by way of range estimation and range cards.

*
o During the unknown distance phase students will run 100 pound steel targets out to ranges between 300 - 800 yards. There are 10 targets in each course of fire and after each course of fire, the targets are rearranged.
+ A student has two attempts to hit each target, a first round impact is worth 10 points and a second is worth 8. An overall average of 80% must be obtained during the 3 weeks of UKD to pass the course. **Furthermore, the portion of the course with the highest attrition rate begins, stalking. Stalking is a skill that takes long hours and dedication to learn, and a lifetime to master.
o Stalking involves moving from a distance between 1200 - 800 yards to within 200 yards of an observation post undetected. After doing this, the student must set up a Final Firing Position (FFP) and fire two shots without being found by the OP within a time period of 3–4 hours.
+ After the first shot is fired, a walker (A neutral instructor who does not help students or the instructors in the OP) will get close to the snipers position to make sure he can positively ID the OP. Positive ID is established by the observers holding up cards with 2-3 letters on them above their binoculars. The sniper must then correctly tell the walker what is written on them. After positive ID has been confirmed, the walker will move within 10 yards of the shooter and inform the OP that he is within 10. The OP will then attempt to walk the walker onto the sniper's position by way of movement commands. The OP must get the walker within 1 foot of the shooter. If the shooter cannot be found, the walker will tell the shooter to fire a second shot on his command. After the second shot has been fired, the OP will look for blast from the rifle or movement from the shooter. If the OP cannot find the shooter then the walker will indicate the shooters position to the OP and check to make sure the shooter had the correct windage and elevation settings, along with correct position and stable shooting platform.
o Grading is as follows for stalking:
+ 0 - Being out of bounds on the stalk lane, not freezing on the command freeze (When the OP believes they know the position of a student they call freeze and all students on the stalk lane have to immediately freeze in whatever position they are in), poor FFP.
+ 40 - Caught out of range or fired out of range(not within 200 yards).
+ 50 - Caught within range.
+ 60 - 1 shot fired but, no positive ID, incorrect windage or elevation, unstable shooting platform.
+ 70 - 1 shot fired and positive ID/ correct windage, elevation, shooting platform but OP walked onto shooter after first shot.
+ 80 - 2 shots fired and positive ID/ correct windage, elevation, shooting platform but OP saw blast from shooter's position after second shot.
+ 100 - 2 shots fired and positive ID/ correct windage, elevation, shooting platform and shooter was never found.
o Students must obtain an overall average of 70% out of 10 stalks, with a minimum of 2 100s and no more than 1 zero in order to pass stalking."
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Hey! Following this is very interesting. An "uneducated guess" here. Having watched Marines train,and having shot competitively many years ago for the Navy it seems to me that the Marines always zeroed in at 600 yards. Now, that being sow would it not seem resonable to have a high degree of expectation of first round kills normally [whtever normal is] at 600 yards 80% and above, +/- 100 yards? Now, the grunt behind the riflebutt in a "normal" combat scenario does not geneerally have the luxury of a spotter call/coaching wind for him. So it seems reasonable that the degree of expectation goes down with an increase in range as well as factors entering the combat mix such as was pointed out above, cooks, bakers, candlestick makers. That is understood here so? it would seem to me that in setpiece sniper scenarios, is it not possible that a "really good" spotter who can call wind, mirage an other external factors is almost as good as "gold" and is quite probably equally as important as the rifleman? The two go in my estimation go to make up a "composite person" The Sniper. That degree of epxectation then goes back to somewhat near "normal". Is it not nearly as important after the first shot that an "immediate" follow on shot be doped and ready to go if needed? And given the fluid character of movement in the battle space and given a first round miss or wounding is it not possible that the value of The Sniper in the battle space still acts as a force multiplier far beyond his relative numerical there by his ability to destroy morale and command, control,and communication? Thoughts and questions from a retired military professional: I am W.A.BullardJr. EMC/SW [USN] Ret'd, Underway Engineering Officer of the Watch, also USN Team 89-91. All the best. Anchor's Aweigh/SemperFi Chief Bull, have a fine Navy Day
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Popping this post to the top, got me to reading it again. The question that keeps popping up is...............

What is "average" in combat? I don't think there is such an animal.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

There are so many aspects to the question. Most military units do a poor job on manning, managing, training and employing their snipers. Very few have a sniper section. They task guys within the line to dual hat. Send them to school and once qualified give them liitle time to train. SOF is a little different and have dedicated snipers and training. Still each unit differs greatly in the emphasis it puts on sniping. With that being said I base my opinion off working sniper sections. Ones I have worked with. The below example is not the norm but the high end of the scale.
IMO you have three categories of working military snipers.
Beginner- just out of school trains and works as a sniper.
500m 80% for above CB hit
Intermediate- trains and works as a sniper
650M 80% for CB hit
Advanced- trains and works as asniper been doing it a while and is very good at it. (There are very few of them)
800M 80% for CB
An example of of the advanced team capabilities Robby and Jason in their last sniper comp. FT Benning Intl Comp, their final shot CB on the stalk 730 Meters on a 10 or 12 inch steel plate, 8 to 10 MPH winds. CB hit after an all night movement and stalk. In the same comp not to offend anyone,just to put it into perspective the 2nd place team was a begginer team in the above 3 categories. As was most of the field. Hence the huge gap in the final pionts standings. But they were trying and learning to become better.
As a whole the average capability in the regular army is much lower. Not the kids fault their leaders are failing them. The best thing that could happen to the army is they establish a Sniper MOS and you cannot get into it unitl you are the rank of E-4. Not have it as an Identifier / additional duty that you cannot spend enough time in to become great at it. Until they do that the turn over rate is so high in sniper sections they cannot ever reach their full potential.
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

BravoZulu "375gr" well said
ChiefBull Anchor'sAweigh/SemperFi
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

Pardon the intrusion of an 'Ole Fart' that will be 72 in two months but if I might....I'd like to make a couple of comments! I've probably got 40-50 years on most of you guys in age and experience and I don't mean to talk down to anyone but I think there's a whole helluva lot of BS posted on a lot of these forums concerning long range shooting! And by BS I mean....there's probably a lot of folks coming here that are full-fledged 'wannabes' and think that consistent LR shooting....as portrayed by Hollywood is an easy endeavor! Well....it ain't! It takes a whole mountain high time of trigger pulling to learn how to dope conditions coupled with learning when to shoot and most of all how to 'run the gun' so to speak! The only way anyone is going to eventually learn to feel comfortable with a rifle is by putting thousands of rounds through one....no matter the type...bolt or semi-auto! It's not learned strictly by reading or listening to BS put out by other 'wannabes'! You have to do the deal, walk the talk, and learn how to decipher fact from fiction....meaning that you have to have a 10 gigabyte BS filter installed at all times! The rules of marksmanship are unyielding in their nature and until one learns to apply each and every one.....you may as well be out behind the barn choking your chicken!!

GOD SPEED TO ALL!!
 
Re: expectations of military snipers(first round hits)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 375rgr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are so many aspects to the question. Most military units do a poor job on manning, managing, training and employing their snipers. Very few have a sniper section. They task guys within the line to dual hat. Send them to school and once qualified give them liitle time to train. SOF is a little different and have dedicated snipers and training. Still each unit differs greatly in the emphasis it puts on sniping. With that being said I base my opinion off working sniper sections. Ones I have worked with. The below example is not the norm but the high end of the scale.
IMO you have three categories of working military snipers.
Beginner- just out of school trains and works as a sniper.
500m 80% for above CB hit
Intermediate- trains and works as a sniper
650M 80% for CB hit
Advanced- trains and works as asniper been doing it a while and is very good at it. (There are very few of them)
800M 80% for CB
An example of of the advanced team capabilities Robby and Jason in their last sniper comp. FT Benning Intl Comp, their final shot CB on the stalk 730 Meters on a 10 or 12 inch steel plate, 8 to 10 MPH winds. CB hit after an all night movement and stalk. In the same comp not to offend anyone,just to put it into perspective the 2nd place team was a begginer team in the above 3 categories. As was most of the field. Hence the huge gap in the final pionts standings. But they were trying and learning to become better.
As a whole the average capability in the regular army is much lower. Not the kids fault their leaders are failing them. The best thing that could happen to the army is they establish a Sniper MOS and you cannot get into it unitl you are the rank of E-4. Not have it as an Identifier / additional duty that you cannot spend enough time in to become great at it. Until they do that the turn over rate is so high in sniper sections they cannot ever reach their full potential. </div></div>

375rgr

We had this problem pretty much whipped at one time because when I was at the USAAMU...we had units all throughout the US Army! It's been my understanding that all the MTUs have been done away with except Hqs. Benning and that sucks bigtime! My friend Carlos coined it pretty well when he stated in his book that there were not enough people throughout the US Military in modern times that understood marksmanship to make up a baseball team!! I can vouch for that bigtime because shortly after the start of the first war in Iraq a bunch of us old heads were called back to teach guys marksmanship! That is one real shame! I continuously shake my head at the upper echelon of so-called leadership in ignoring this problem!!

One more sign of the changing times....which I abhor!!
 
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