Rifle Scopes Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

[RSA-Raven]

Hi, I'm ready to see the word "ITAR" all over this thread...
I live in South Africa as some of you know, I can get a Vortex Viper PST here, as long as I'm willing to part with a leg and arm... Yes they are very well priced compared to S&B, Leupi etc but still about double from what you guys pay...
Question is, may I ask a friend to bring me one next time he comes to visit from the States? refering to laws etc. don't want a friend who's doing me a favour to het into a pile of fretelizer...
thx guys
R-Raven

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

I hear Graham coming with rule #1.....

 

[Scarrow]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

I know exporting it to Norway from the US is legal. I have been trying myself. The problem is that Vortex does not let any of their US dealers export them, the reason being they want to protect the dealers overseas. We have the same problem here. The Viper 6,5-20x50 is literally three times more expensive from Midway Norway than from places like SWFA..

PS: Norway is on an exception list, I don't know if SA is on one.

Taken from Liberty Optics' policies :

"As of the time of this writing, we can export Dual Use optics to the following countries, in compliance with all custom regulations:

Australia, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Japan, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain and the United Kingdom."

-Scarrow-

 

[mattsnuked]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

More than likely the reason for the cost increase is due to the specific country's import tariffs. I don't admit to know a whole lot about it but the company I work for has multiple departments to deal with importing/exporting and what costs are associated with it. Needless to say it's big business for countries.

So, if you are asking someone to bring something over and they don't pay the proper import fees/taxes they possibly could get into a lot of trouble.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scarrow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know exporting it to Norway from the US is legal. I have been trying myself. The problem is that Vortex does not let any of their US dealers export them, the reason being they want to protect the dealers overseas. We have the same problem here. The Viper 6,5-20x50 is literally three times more expensive from Midway Norway than from places like SWFA..

PS: Norway is on an exception list, I don't know if SA is on one.

</div></div>

No it is not legal. Despite what Liberty Optics say on their website scopes are ITAR regulated, which means you need a State Department Export License, there are no countries exempt from this regulation. Beware penalties are stiff for non compliance.

 

[RSA-Raven]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

~sobbing~ thx guys...

 

[Fx1]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

Beware of the ITAR Monster

It knows no logic!

It has no mercy!

It wants to control the world!!!!

Everything is ITARRRRRRR!!!!

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

From Liberty website

Do you ship internationally?

Binoculars and spotting scopes, yes, to friendly american allied countries. Riflescopes, this is where it gets tricky. The Homeland Security types have been taking exception to certain dealers exporting internationally. Bushnell, Bass Pro Shops, DNR Sports, recently have all been hit hard with heavy fines or worse (it's all public record).

Check this link: http://www.bis.doc.gov/complianceandenforcement/dontletthishappentoyou2007_sm.pdf
Turns out ALL riflescopes are controlled items. Those that are military spec are controlled under ITAR and require a license from the Department of State. We will not be exporting these items. This includes Eotech HWS, Nightvision, thermal sights, or other explicit milspec items. We do not export IOR riflescopes per agreement with Valdada (it's not illegal, but we can't do it). All other riflescopes are classified as "Dual Use" and fall under the Department of Commerce, Bureau of Industry Security, under the Export Administration Regulations. The requisite classification is found in the Commerce Control List. With few exceptions, export of Dual Use items requires a license. You must also ensure that the person receiving the goods are not under various "no-no" lists published by the likes of the Treasury Department. Certain countries are exempt from licensing under the Dual Use regulations, and we elect to cull others that are otherwise legal but we are not comfortable with. As of the time of this writing, we can export Dual Use optics to the following countries, in compliance with all custom regulations:

Australia, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Japan, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain and the United Kingdom

We do reserve the right to refuse or cancel any foreign order if we feel it is not in our best interests. Please note international orders will incur additional international credit card fees and an international shipping charge. It is always best to call or email us ahead of time if you are an international customer.

 

[Fx1]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

I really like how you have to get a licence to sell/buy something that will most likely be already on sale in the country your selling to and also need a licence to sell something which was imported into the US in the first place such as German optics.

Some things such as Photonis Night vision cant be exported even though they were imported from Holland!

Only dumb ass governments can think up things like this.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From Liberty website

Do you ship internationally?

Binoculars and spotting scopes, yes, to friendly american allied countries. Riflescopes, this is where it gets tricky. The Homeland Security types have been taking exception to certain dealers exporting internationally. Bushnell, Bass Pro Shops, DNR Sports, recently have all been hit hard with heavy fines or worse (it's all public record).

Check this link: http://www.bis.doc.gov/complianceandenforcement/dontletthishappentoyou2007_sm.pdf
Turns out ALL riflescopes are controlled items. Those that are military spec are controlled under ITAR and require a license from the Department of State. We will not be exporting these items. This includes Eotech HWS, Nightvision, thermal sights, or other explicit milspec items. We do not export IOR riflescopes per agreement with Valdada (it's not illegal, but we can't do it). All other riflescopes are classified as "Dual Use" and fall under the Department of Commerce, Bureau of Industry Security, under the Export Administration Regulations. The requisite classification is found in the Commerce Control List. With few exceptions, export of Dual Use items requires a license. You must also ensure that the person receiving the goods are not under various "no-no" lists published by the likes of the Treasury Department. Certain countries are exempt from licensing under the Dual Use regulations, and we elect to cull others that are otherwise legal but we are not comfortable with. As of the time of this writing, we can export Dual Use optics to the following countries, in compliance with all custom regulations:

Australia, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Japan, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain and the United Kingdom

We do reserve the right to refuse or cancel any foreign order if we feel it is not in our best interests. Please note international orders will incur additional international credit card fees and an international shipping charge. It is always best to call or email us ahead of time if you are an international customer.


</div></div>

I know Britain has similar rules regarding the export of scopes. Rumor has it that reloading equipment is going to fall under ITAR. I think Liberty Optics are taking a gamble, they should certainly seek clarification from the State Department.

 

[BCP]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

The thing about ITAR is that they seem to keep a secret list of items that they watch for. It's a safe bet that leupold tactical scopes like the m2/m3, EOTechs and ACOGS are on that list but other stuff who knows. While I really doubt one guy bringing a scope that isn't used by our military in his luggage to a country that doesn't support terrorism would get in trouble it is a gray area.

Also, he'd probably have to declare it, in which case you ought to check and see what the customs duty limit is and what items are prohibited. Most countries allow a certain amount of goods to be brought in duty-free (in the US it's ~800 bucks worth) with restrictions on firearms and drugs.

Like I said, gray area.

 

[Scarrow]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

It was not my intention to 'out' liberty optics in my reply, I just assume they have coverage for what they say in their policies.
That being said, I have mailed a lot of the US Vortex pushers, and they have all politely replied that they are barred from exporting the scopes by Vortex themselves. Some of them have suggested other scopes where the manufacturers aren't so strict on overseas dealer protection. I assume these dealers have export licenses, or they would not offer international shipping.

I should clarify that I don't know if a person carrying a rifle scope going out of the US is breaking a law or not.

As for the price increase of the scopes when sold here, shipping from the US is quoted at $28-40, and upon entering Norway you have to pay a 25% sales tax.

This does not justify Midway Norge selling a $399 usd scope for $1211 (The Viper 6,5-20x44) I'm all for people making a profit, but that's just too much.

To the OP: Good luck getting your hands on one! ..I even considered importing one from South Africa..

 

[Fx1]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scarrow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was not my intention to 'out' liberty optics in my reply, I just assume they have coverage for what they say in their policies.
That being said, I have mailed a lot of the US Vortex pushers, and they have all politely replied that they are barred from exporting the scopes by Vortex themselves. Some of them have suggested other scopes where there manufactureres aren't so strict on overseas dealer protection. I assume these dealers have export licenses, or they would not offer international shipping.

I should clarify that I don't know if a person carrying a rifle scope going out of the US is breaking a law or not.

As for the price increase of the scopes when sold here, shipping from the US is quoted at $28-40, and upon entering Norway you have to pay a 25% sales tax.

This does not justify Midway Norge selling a $399 usd scope for $1211 (The Viper 6,5-20x44) I'm all for people making a profit, but that's just too much.

To the OP: Good luck getting your hands on one! ..I even considered importing one from South Africa..

</div></div>

Screw Vortex then?

Get a better scope from someone who will sell to you at reasonable price?

These Vortex might be good at 399$ but they arent worth 1200$!

Someone said their weaver was better in the post the other day.

Not the end of the world.

 

[LibertyOptics]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

Wow, I've been gone awhile and my policies get pasted verbatim LOL

Yes, all this stuff is indeed tricky, and generally non-sensical, but so far we "think" we have this figured out. No one really knows, and the Feds can make up stuff as they go along, but generally we work hard to comply with all US Export Law. We do not export ITAR stuff, period. DOC/BIS stuff, the country chart has been recently updated and I need to update my list.

By dealer agreement, no exports of Vortex scopes, even if technically legal.

Scott

 

[paraman1]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

So , just out of curiosity , if someone were to come to the US and purchase something on the ITAR list would it be against the law for them to return to their home country with it ?

 

[LibertyOptics]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So , just out of curiosity , if someone were to come to the US and purchase something on the ITAR list would it be against the law for them to return to their home country with it ? </div></div>

I would say yes.....

 

[vman]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So , just out of curiosity , if someone were to come to the US and purchase something on the ITAR list would it be against the law for them to return to their home country with it ? </div></div>

I would say yes..... </div></div>

Hmmmmmmm...

So, what happens, if you purchase said product in your home country. Whatever that may be, LRF, tactical scope whatever.

Is it now illegal to bring that item back into the United states, take it on a hunting trip, and then bring it back out again and home with you?

What happens If i decide to bring my rich ass over to the US for a big hunting expedition and happen to bring my gear along with me? Will i then be labelled as a thread when i try to leave the US with items that I already own and purchased legally in another country?

how does this work? Too many loopholes?

 

[Fx1]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So , just out of curiosity , if someone were to come to the US and purchase something on the ITAR list would it be against the law for them to return to their home country with it ? </div></div>

I would say yes..... </div></div>

Hmmmmmmm...

So, what happens, if you purchase said product in your home country. Whatever that may be, LRF, tactical scope whatever.

Is it now illegal to bring that item back into the United states, take it on a hunting trip, and then bring it back out again and home with you?

What happens If i decide to bring my rich ass over to the US for a big hunting expedition and happen to bring my gear along with me? Will i then be labelled as a thread when i try to leave the US with items that I already own and purchased legally in another country?

how does this work? Too many loopholes?</div></div>

Now your getting the point.

ITAR is the dumbest legislation since prohibition. it harms legal sales whilst the illegal stuff just carries on anyway.

 

[vman]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

Im not going to say I disagree 100% with what they do, as I understand where they are coming from... I just think theres too many loop holes for the system to work.

Either that or innocent people will suffer.

I only say this because I have been in this situation myself coming out of the united states. I had no problems at all, but I would be curious of the outcome if it went the other way.

Or, what If i went into the US with my rifle for a nice guided tour, you know because im rich and all (im not really but im just saying what if) and I can do this type of stuff. Say I have some cheap ol BSA scope on my nice custom made .338LM. I arrive in the states and replace my BSA with a nice quality bit of european gear that authorities would consider a "tactical" bit of optics. Target turrets, Mil dot reticle etc... and then a week later I effectively return home with some new optics that would otherwise not get through.

Now, I dont really have a reason to do this as I can get the same optics in Australia, for a little bit more than my American brethren will pay, but I can still get it regards... so im not likely to do this.

In saying this more than 50% of my optics has been purchased from overseas because its easier on my wallet and im not the hypothetical rich dude that can afford to go on international guided hunts every year.

 

[Fx1]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

America is becoming more and more insular where trade is concerned, This isnt just guns it can even affect commercial airplanes people go on holiday on. Its a total mess.

With the national debt mounting up and up and up you would think an easy way to make some money would be to open up the flood gates to trade with people. At least trade with the people who are Nato nations and allies.

I can tell you from experience that every time people need to buy something now which falls under this ITAR and other legislation people only do so as a last resort. The paperwork and hassle and time involved just to get a nut and bolt out of america now is insane. Everyone is turning to China and other nations to buy stuff.

forget trying to understand it and just put your money somewhere else.

 

[Anachronist]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

The reason american civilian market optics are so expensive here isn't the import tariff or the locally applied salestax. The reasons are:

*the exporter having to deal with US export permits.

*the manufacturers wanting to protect their european distributors.

*the prices of of premium german and austrian optics that's driving the whole european optics price levels UP.

*because the sellers can get away with it. (In my darker moments I think this is the largest contributing factor). Midway's overseas business is a prime example of this.

As for ITAR: An aimpoint sight is made in Sweden and exported to USA by the pallet. A fair percentage of them end up at mail order houses that sell them at good prices. If a Swedish tourist is taking advantage of the harder competition, the lower salestax and the currently advantageous exchange rate while on vacation and tries to take one back home, he stands the risk of suffering all kinds of indignities above and beyond the normal indignities of flying internationally for trying to export military grade weapons sights out of the US.

The same can be said about riflescopes made in Japan and other places by OEM manufacturers. And glock magazines out of Austria... And AK mags of all things. East german ak mags weren't made in Germantown, KY exactly, nor is there a general shortage in the world.

It's a set of regulations that accomplishes little or nothing except aggravating honest people and self-perpetuation of the agencies enforcing it.

Similar chains of reasoning can be constructed around several other things both for importing and exporting things to/from USA, and not just armaments either, but I'm going to step off my soapbox now.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fx1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So , just out of curiosity , if someone were to come to the US and purchase something on the ITAR list would it be against the law for them to return to their home country with it ? </div></div>

I would say yes..... </div></div>

Hmmmmmmm...

So, what happens, if you purchase said product in your home country. Whatever that may be, LRF, tactical scope whatever.

Is it now illegal to bring that item back into the United states, take it on a hunting trip, and then bring it back out again and home with you?

What happens If i decide to bring my rich ass over to the US for a big hunting expedition and happen to bring my gear along with me? Will i then be labelled as a thread when i try to leave the US with items that I already own and purchased legally in another country?

how does this work? Too many loopholes?</div></div>

Now your getting the point.

ITAR is the dumbest legislation since prohibition. it harms legal sales whilst the illegal stuff just carries on anyway. </div></div>

I've recently completed the ATF permanant import application and have previously had the temporary import licence required for hunting or participating in sport shooting events. All they ask for are details on the rifle and ammunition you intend to import. There is nothing in the form that requires details on scopes, LRFs or nightvision optics. In theory, these items can be confiscated and you prosecuted when you leave the US unless you can prove they were originally purchased overseas so all you have to do is keep the reciepts.

I was in the US last week and landed at Newark. I went over to customs and said "next time i am coming in i want to bring a rifle...all permits in hand but do i actually need to declare it to you or can i walk through"..poor chap didn't know so he called over his mate...who didn't know who called over another colleague who said "you've arrived with a rifle and no permit?" he then called over another colleague who said "you've lost your rifle?". I literally had 5 of them there asking questions all at once and getting more confused by the minute.

Bottom line, i think the regulations are "reasonably" clear but not perfect. If you stick to the rules on the ATF website and don't breach the State laws where you intend to hunt or shoot you are good to go. It is true many police/or other agencies don't know the precise law but who can blame them when it changes every 5 minutes for example, my permit says i can import 500 rounds of .308 but in certain cities the max limit for possession is actually 200 because of fire code restrictions.

Decide what you really want to do and come back and we will try to help you but if you think there is a cute way to by-pass the intended purpose of the law to either save a few $$$ or prove a point then you are on your own.

 

[Anachronist]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Decide what you really want to do and come back and we will try to help you but if you think there is a cute way to by-pass the intended purpose of the law to either save a few $$$ or prove a point then you are on your own. </div></div>

Fair enough. Your house, your rules. All I'm saying is that the regulations in question may not actually accomplish the original stated purpose (namely regulating the flow of amercian defense industry products to countries that may one day become an adversary).

The rules for traveling to USA with a firearm are a different thing altogether. I don't have a problem with those. Just as outlined above be prepared for a situation where you, the traveler know more about the rules than the official you're talking to. Not because that is always the case (it isn't), but because it's easier to get ahold of documentation in advance, at home.

 

[RSA-Raven]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

I have to say that my original question was answered in about two replies...
But now I'm enjoying this thread for the opinions that gets posted, thx guys
Please don't stop...

 

[sititunga]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So , just out of curiosity , if someone were to come to the US and purchase something on the ITAR list would it be against the law for them to return to their home country with it ?
</div></div> I would say yes.....


</div></div>

But be very careful because the Department of Homeland Security have their own way of interpreting things. I know a few years ago the DHS were setting up road blocks this side of the border and stopping and confiscating shooting items from Canadians heading back home. In one instance I heard a Canadian had a barrel blank and rifle scope confiscated by the DHS.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RSA-Raven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question is, may I ask a friend to bring me one next time he comes to visit from the States? refering to laws etc. don't want a friend who's doing me a favour to het into a pile of fretelizer...
thx guys
R-Raven </div></div>

You would be asking your friend to commit a federal crime.

I try not to ask my friends to commit crimes for me.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What happens If i decide to bring my rich ass over to the US for a big hunting expedition and happen to bring my gear along with me? Will i then be labelled as a thread when i try to leave the US with items that I already own and purchased legally in another country?</div></div>

Import/Export Permits.

When a US Citizen travels outside the country with firearms they have to have proof that those firearms came from the US otherwise they can be confiscated.

I don't work Border Security or Customs, so I can't tell you all the ins and outs. I had cause to look into what it would take to get some restricted items out and back in again and realized it was easier to source things locally.

 

[Fx1]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So , just out of curiosity , if someone were to come to the US and purchase something on the ITAR list would it be against the law for them to return to their home country with it ?
</div></div> I would say yes.....


</div></div>

But be very careful because the Department of Homeland Security have their own way of interpreting things. I know a few years ago the DHS were setting up road blocks this side of the border and stopping and confiscating shooting items from Canadians heading back home. In one instance I heard a Canadian had a barrel blank and rifle scope confiscated by the DHS.</div></div>

Yes this a great use of your tax payers dollars dont you think?

Better watch out for them pesky canadians, 1 barrel blank and a rifle scope = Major National Security Breach.

Considering Iraq + Afganistan insurgents are still using AK47's nearing 50 years old and iron sights and given that they never managed to upgrade their kit despite 50 years without ITAR. Suddenly everything exported without licence is going to terrorism?

They will seriously lock you up and throw away the key if you are caught taking a Gen 3 night vision unit out of the US, Despite the pentagon trying to sell 5000 PVS7 goggles to the Iraq government in 2009!!!!!

 

[sititunga]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fx1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So , just out of curiosity , if someone were to come to the US and purchase something on the ITAR list would it be against the law for them to return to their home country with it ?
</div></div> I would say yes.....


</div></div>

But be very careful because the Department of Homeland Security have their own way of interpreting things. I know a few years ago the DHS were setting up road blocks this side of the border and stopping and confiscating shooting items from Canadians heading back home. In one instance I heard a Canadian had a barrel blank and rifle scope confiscated by the DHS.</div></div>

Yes this a great use of your tax payers dollars dont you think?

Better watch out for them pesky canadians, 1 barrel blank and a rifle scope = Major National Security Breach.

Considering Iraq + Afganistan insurgents are still using AK47's nearing 50 years old and iron sights and given that they never managed to upgrade their kit despite 50 years without ITAR. Suddenly everything exported without licence is going to terrorism?

They will seriously lock you up and throw away the key if you are caught taking a Gen 3 night vision unit out of the US, Despite the pentagon trying to sell 5000 PVS7 goggles to the Iraq government in 2009!!!!! </div></div>

You have my complete sympathy - I personally feel ITAR is over dramatic especially to friendly countries like Canada. Up until 2000 (I think that was the date), Canada was the only country exempt from the export regs, I know the implementation certainly affected many Canadians who used to enjoy the freedom of buying stuff south of the line.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

Coming back from the US last weekemd with my new Storm case I left it empty, unlocked and with clear labelled messages to TSA saying "this case is empty, plse call me on xxx if you want me to be there when you open it or feel free to open it yourself if you wish". I included a copy of the purchase reciept inside to show it was new.

Yep, you guessed it...TSA removed my case from the flight and it didn't travel. Took me a few days and my airlines help to get them to send it on. Cheers lads.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Coming back from the US last weekemd with my new Storm case I left it empty, unlocked and with clear labelled messages to TSA saying "this case is empty, plse call me on xxx if you want me to be there when you open it or feel free to open it yourself if you wish". I included a copy of the purchase reciept inside to show it was new.

Yep, you guessed it...TSA removed my case from the flight and it didn't travel. Took me a few days and my airlines help to get them to send it on. Cheers lads. </div></div>

If that had been a scope I doubt you would have gotten that back.

 

[vman]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Coming back from the US last weekemd with my new Storm case I left it empty, unlocked and with clear labelled messages to TSA saying "this case is empty, plse call me on xxx if you want me to be there when you open it or feel free to open it yourself if you wish". I included a copy of the purchase reciept inside to show it was new.

Yep, you guessed it...TSA removed my case from the flight and it didn't travel. Took me a few days and my airlines help to get them to send it on. Cheers lads. </div></div>

Id be pissed... but thats just me

 

[RSA-Raven]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

Just a thought... Why's admin so expensive...
Controle exports by all means, but why is it so expensive...
Do a backround check on me & decide if I'm a threat to the US, If decided I'm a decent chap, give me a ltd export licence for personal use... I'm not asking for heat seaking ICBMs, but 456, a maglite LED-globe is restricted by TIAR... WTF?

 

[Anachronist]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

If TSA grounded the case, it was for flight safety reasons, not ITAR, not homeland security, and not for tax and duties related reasons.

I guess we should all be glad that that Richard Reid crammed the bomb into his <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">shoe</span></span></span>. We could very easily have had a situation where the flight attendants were handing out complimentary soft pillows to go with the scotch. At which point the terrorists would have ... won.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Coming back from the US last weekemd with my new Storm case I left it empty, unlocked and with clear labelled messages to TSA saying "this case is empty, plse call me on xxx if you want me to be there when you open it or feel free to open it yourself if you wish". I included a copy of the purchase reciept inside to show it was new.

Yep, you guessed it...TSA removed my case from the flight and it didn't travel. Took me a few days and my airlines help to get them to send it on. Cheers lads. </div></div>

Id be pissed... but thats just me </div></div>

 

[sititunga]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RSA-Raven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a thought... Why's admin so expensive...
Controle exports by all means, but why is it so expensive...
Do a backround check on me & decide if I'm a threat to the US, If decided I'm a decent chap, give me a ltd export licence for personal use... I'm not asking for heat seaking ICBMs, but 456, a maglite LED-globe is restricted by TIAR... WTF? </div></div>

It was a few years ago under the Bush administration that Export licenses became much more expensive. There was a review done on the cost of running individual government departments and it was decided that the full cost of administration should be passed onto the end user. Many licensed exporters just gave up their licenses because it became too expensive. Each exporter has to pay upfront for their licenses based on a percentage of their previous years exports. Someone chip in if I have got this wrong - but this is what my understanding is.

There is no question the current system is cumbersome and impedes exports. The exports rules could certainly be simplified to friendly countries and to those countries that have similar controls on arms. There is nothing this country enjoys more than bureaucracy, strange but true, but it is slowly proving to be our failing.

 

[Scarrow]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

FWIW:

From Leupold's site :

"Import/Export Licensing Requirements:
Customers located in the following countries may return riflescopes to the product service facility in their country or the Leupold factory WITHOUT import/export licensing requirements:

AUSTRALIA, BELGIUM, DENMARK, FRANCE, GERMANY, GREECE, ICELAND, ITALY, JAPAN, LUXEMBOURG, NETHERLANDS, NEW ZEALAND, NORWAY, NEW CALEDONIA, PORTUGAL, SCOTLAND, SPAIN, TURKEY, ENGLAND, UNITED KINGDOM"

So there seems to be an exception list.

 

[frankythefly]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

I thought this was interesting apparently Bass pro shop sold some optics overseas and they got tagged with a half million fine:

Bass Pro, Inc.
The Violation: Bass Pro, Inc. exported gun sights to a variety of destinations without a license in violation of
the EAR. Gun sights are controlled pursuant to U.S. treaty obligations, as well as for human rights and antiterrorism reasons.
The Penalty: Bass Pro agreed to a $510,000 administrative penalty.


It is a good thing to keep shit out of the hands of terrorists, but hardly any country has these rules or follows them. I remember in Iraq, Steyr sold .50 cals/ w optics to Iranians, who then in store outfited those to Shia insurgents in Iraq which resulted in over 100 or so soldiers KIA. I am not 100% but I am pretty sure these where outfitted with either S&B or Zeiss whatever is standard in the deployment package. It is rather strange to me that the US govt has no problem selling or giving military equipment to everyone including everyone in the middle east. But if you dare sell a scope that is made in a place that in the south has been listed by DOD as a terrorist safe haven, to a foreigner be prepared to go to jail.

 

[vman]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought this was interesting apparently Bass pro shop sold some optics overseas and they got tagged with a half million fine:

Bass Pro, Inc.
The Violation: Bass Pro, Inc. exported gun sights to a variety of destinations without a license in violation of
the EAR. Gun sights are controlled pursuant to U.S. treaty obligations, as well as for human rights and antiterrorism reasons.
The Penalty: Bass Pro agreed to a $510,000 administrative penalty.


It is a good thing to keep shit out of the hands of terrorists, but hardly any country has these rules or follows them. I remember in Iraq, Steyr sold .50 cals/ w optics to Iranians, who then in store outfited those to Shia insurgents in Iraq which resulted in over 100 or so soldiers KIA. I am not 100% but I am pretty sure these where outfitted with either S&B or Zeiss whatever is standard in the deployment package. It is rather strange to me that the US govt has no problem selling or giving military equipment to everyone including everyone in the middle east. But if you dare sell a scope that is made in a place that in the south has been listed by DOD as a terrorist safe haven, to a foreigner be prepared to go to jail. </div></div>

Steyr got in some trouble for doing that by the way

 

[sititunga]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scarrow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FWIW:

From Leupold's site :

"Import/Export Licensing Requirements:
Customers located in the following countries may return riflescopes to the product service facility in their country or the Leupold factory WITHOUT import/export licensing requirements:

AUSTRALIA, BELGIUM, DENMARK, FRANCE, GERMANY, GREECE, ICELAND, ITALY, JAPAN, LUXEMBOURG, NETHERLANDS, NEW ZEALAND, NORWAY, NEW CALEDONIA, PORTUGAL, SCOTLAND, SPAIN, TURKEY, ENGLAND, UNITED KINGDOM"

So there seems to be an exception list.

</div></div>

Like it says: "Customers located in the following countries <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">may RETURN riflescopes to the product service facility </span></span>in their country or the Leupold factory WITHOUT import/export licensing requirements".

You can return scopes for warranty work but it doesn't mention anything about purchasing new scopes directly out of the US.

If you don't believe me call Leupold about it, and you'll get a big NO.

 

[Scarrow]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Like it says: "Customers located in the following countries <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">may RETURN riflescopes to the product service facility </span></span>in their country or the Leupold factory WITHOUT import/export licensing requirements".

You can return scopes for warranty work but it doesn't mention anything about purchasing new scopes directly out of the US.

If you don't believe me call Leupold about it, and you'll get a big NO.

</div></div>

I sent two mails asking Leupold about this, but ended up calling them, since after a month, I didn't get a reply that had anything to do with my original question. I talked to a very helpful woman there, and she needed some time to clarify it with people more familiar with export regulations, she said.
The answer I eventually got was that they could see no problem in me buying a Leupold scope directly from the US since Leupold holds an export license and the very same license is needed to handle warranty cases and customer returns. (after I pointed out that customers from Norway could return their Leupold scopes to the US without export licenses.) And that Norway is not on a ban-list.

However, they also recommended that I buy from a dealer in Norway or at least europe to handle eventual warranty cases easier.

..of course.. Leupold could be wrong as well.

Edit: Sorry for waking this thread back up, but I think this is important to clarify.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

The U.S operates and applies ITAR in a way that is highly insulting to its allies (such as the blokes down under who have turned out in support everytime the U.S gets into a punch-up)

For those who don't get that statement, because they live in CONUS, this is what it sounds like to us:

"Er, we're going to have a war, fellas. Would you mind showing up again and lending a hand, again? What? You want to buy a bipod, or a rifle scope off us? Nooooo, you might be a terrorist."

It's changed nothing except to punish your friends.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scarrow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Like it says: "Customers located in the following countries <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">may RETURN riflescopes to the product service facility </span></span>in their country or the Leupold factory WITHOUT import/export licensing requirements".

You can return scopes for warranty work but it doesn't mention anything about purchasing new scopes directly out of the US.

If you don't believe me call Leupold about it, and you'll get a big NO.

</div></div>

I sent two mails asking Leupold about this, but ended up calling them, since after a month, I didn't get a reply that had anything to do with my original question. I talked to a very helpful woman there, and she needed some time to clarify it with people more familiar with export regulations, she said.
The answer I eventually got was that they could see no problem in me buying a Leupold scope directly from the US since Leupold holds an export license and the very same license is needed to handle warranty cases and customer returns. (after I pointed out that customers from Norway could return their Leupold scopes to the US without export licenses.) And that Norway is not on a ban-list.

However, they also recommended that I buy from a dealer in Norway or at least europe to handle eventual warranty cases easier.

..of course.. Leupold could be wrong as well.

Edit: Sorry for waking this thread back up, but I think this is important to clarify. </div></div>

Leupold has an export license, but that's for Leupold. Leupold doesn't sell scopes direct. If you buy from a dealer, the dealer needs to obtain an export license from a state department licensed exporter - Leupold dealers are not covered by Leupold's export license. Milspec scopes are ITAR regulated your seller legally needs to apply for an export permit period.

 

[Scarrow]

Re: Exporting a Viper PST leagal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Leupold has an export license, but that's for Leupold. Leupold doesn't sell scopes direct. If you buy from a dealer, the dealer needs to obtain an export license from a state department licensed exporter - Leupold dealers are not covered by Leupold's export license. Milspec scopes are ITAR regulated your seller legally needs to apply for an export permit period.

</div></div>

Nobody questioned the need for an export license for milspec scopes, Vortex scopes are not built to milspec or have NSNs (according to Vortex themselves).

I guess what it all boils down to is that, even though people do it, it is not recommended for a tourist to carry a rifle scope bought in the US through customs and onto a plane.
(A norwegian hunting party did just that last year, and the only thing they were asked was if the scopes were intended for military use..) It's better to go through the correct channels and get one sent from a dealer with an export license. At least that way you don't risk it being seized at the airport.