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1000Y?
Seems the old standby is 284 Win.
There seems to be a new trend going to 300WSM with 215 Bergers.
People play with 7 Saum or 7 WSM but barrels only last 1000 rounds or so.
600Y or less, many are using 6mm Dasher, 6BRA or 6BR.
Seems the old standby is 284 Win.
There seems to be a new trend going to 300WSM with 215 Bergers.
People play with 7 Saum or 7 WSM but barrels only last 1000 rounds or so.
600Y or less, many are using 6mm Dasher, 6BRA or 6BR.
I will echo what Steve has to say. As a NRA F-class regional match director, I have seen the 284 and their variants do very well. Great 7mm bullets and reasonable barrel life. Depending on the wind conditions of where you might typically compete, the 6 Dasher and its family might be worthy of considering too.
@milanuk might have more current input. He is on the US national F-TR team.
@milanuk might have more current input. He is on the US national F-TR team.
Used to be 6 BR / 6 Dasher for MR, and 6.5-284 for LR, with a very few people running 284 Shehanes, 7 WSM/SAUMs, etc.
More recently it seems like most people run a .284 Win or some variant - KMR, Shehane, etc. (but mostly straight-up .284 Win) across the board. No more one gun for MR and one for LR. Or if they do have two guns, it's a primary / backup situation, but both in .284 Win. The 7 WSM, 7 SAUM and .300 WSM tend to be more common in dedicated 1k-only guns, due to the relatively short competitive barrel life. From what I've heard, the .30 cal short mags pushing heavier bullets are just enough harder to drive accurately - not that the gun/caliber lack, but that over tournaments that run a weekend to 3-5 days the torque and recoil add up. Some people keep one around as a 'windy day/range' gun, for those days when nobody is shooting clean
If all a person has available to them locally is MR i.e. 600yds and less then the options opens considerably, as most MR ranges tend to be more 'protected' in terms of the wind - located in deep cuts, or surrounded by trees, etc. Still a lot of 6 and 6.5s of every flavor in MR as a result.
I wouldn't let the lack of a .284 / 7mm stop you from shooting LR either... just going to have to work a bit harder at the wind to hang with the pack, or catch a lucky relay
@jameydan no longer on the team... I decided to step down and let others have their turn
More recently it seems like most people run a .284 Win or some variant - KMR, Shehane, etc. (but mostly straight-up .284 Win) across the board. No more one gun for MR and one for LR. Or if they do have two guns, it's a primary / backup situation, but both in .284 Win. The 7 WSM, 7 SAUM and .300 WSM tend to be more common in dedicated 1k-only guns, due to the relatively short competitive barrel life. From what I've heard, the .30 cal short mags pushing heavier bullets are just enough harder to drive accurately - not that the gun/caliber lack, but that over tournaments that run a weekend to 3-5 days the torque and recoil add up. Some people keep one around as a 'windy day/range' gun, for those days when nobody is shooting clean
If all a person has available to them locally is MR i.e. 600yds and less then the options opens considerably, as most MR ranges tend to be more 'protected' in terms of the wind - located in deep cuts, or surrounded by trees, etc. Still a lot of 6 and 6.5s of every flavor in MR as a result.
I wouldn't let the lack of a .284 / 7mm stop you from shooting LR either... just going to have to work a bit harder at the wind to hang with the pack, or catch a lucky relay
@jameydan no longer on the team... I decided to step down and let others have their turn
224 valkrie has very little recoil and could be used past 1000 yards have not tried it that far yet but cant wait till i can. And its relatively cheap
I don't think anyone has gone down that particular rabbit hole yet. Banging steel is challenging in its own right, but I don't believe a Valkyrie would be a good choice for serious 1k F-class competition.
Not saying that the right person on the right day couldn't be successful with one - I shoot a 308, for God's sake ?? - but as a recommendation for "best caliber" for 1k F-Open...
No.
Still not anywhere near best, or even good the 22 Nosler, single loaded long is a better choice that a 224V.
F-Class you MUST single load. Why not single load long?
I'm stuck in F-Open, 600yds for now, shooting along side some nice guns but I have NOT reached the limit of the 22N.
F-Class you MUST single load. Why not single load long?
I'm stuck in F-Open, 600yds for now, shooting along side some nice guns but I have NOT reached the limit of the 22N.
The 7mm SAUM or something similar in 7mm would be my choice.
When I still lived in Texas my boss was very competitive in F-OPEN and he ran a 7mm Walker that if I remember was a blown out 284win with a 40° shoulder in Lapua brass.
Picking one that has the best available brass that can actually be found when you need it would also be a major consideration and having a dedicated rifle for fireforming.
Expensive hobby to be competitive in.
When I still lived in Texas my boss was very competitive in F-OPEN and he ran a 7mm Walker that if I remember was a blown out 284win with a 40° shoulder in Lapua brass.
Picking one that has the best available brass that can actually be found when you need it would also be a major consideration and having a dedicated rifle for fireforming.
Expensive hobby to be competitive in.
Not so expensive if you just want to get out and have some fun and improve your skills.
Is the 6.5 PRC taking hold at all in F?
There is an F class forum here. There another version of this question there right now with some good info
No, by a ridiculous margins the 284 Win or a variant is the chamber of choice inF Open.
I am new to long range shooting so excuse my ignorance; when we say that the .284 is the cartridge of choice, we are talking about the 6.5-284 Norma correct?
No the 6.5-284 is a necked down .284 win.
F class mostly runs on .284 win (6.5-284Norma is a wildcat of .284win) derivative and some 7mm magnums everything , but at the end of the day calibers choice follows the bullet offerings.
Would be interesting to see how 6.5-284Norma does with the 147 Eldx and other heavy 6.5bullets that are close to BC of the 180g .284 bullets.
Would be interesting to see how 6.5-284Norma does with the 147 Eldx and other heavy 6.5bullets that are close to BC of the 180g .284 bullets.
The problem with a 6.5 vs a 284 is that the 6.5 is more over bore and barrel life will necessarily be shorter, and in a 22# F open rig I don’t think the difference in recoil is going to be importan, but it could be the next “thing”
Keep in mind the format, 20 shot strings often in 5 to 10 minutes (sometimes faster). That chews barrels up.
Keep in mind the format, 20 shot strings often in 5 to 10 minutes (sometimes faster). That chews barrels up.
In the post above, Milanuk mentions that, “Banging steel is challenging in its own right,” Ihave read in different places where someone will ask, “Are you shooting steel or paper?” I don’t understand the difference. A target is a target, right?
paper isn’t reactive
and most paper matches are scored ring value.
so 0.75moa vs 0.50moa won’t win you a steel match, but it will win you a paper match
Ok I understand, thanks for the explanation.
I was watching a match that took place in Australia on YouTube. They were interviewing the gentlemen that won and he stated that he shot a 75 and 15v. I tried googling it to find out what that score meant but couldn’t find anything. Would you mind explaining to me what shooting a 75 and 15 V means?
Thanks in advance, Josh
looks like they use “V-Bull” instead of “X-Ring”
it just means the 0.5moa ring, used for tie breakers
it just means the 0.5moa ring, used for tie breakers
In most state-side matches, we shoot mostly 20 shot 'strings'. Some number of sighting shots, and then 20 record shots. This is mostly for matches that are all at one distance i.e. 600yds, or 1000yds. There is a separate 'course of fire' known as a 'Palma' course, which involves 15 for record at 800, 900 and 1000 yds (plus sighters). We use exclusively a 10/X or 'decimal' target system, so the lowest possible score for a shot on paper is a '5'.
In countries that are part of the British Commonwealth, they use 5/V targets - so the same ring sizes (for the most part), and the lowest shot value is a '1'. They also typically shoot 'pair' fire i.e. shooter 1 fires a shot, shooter 2 records the score. Then shooter 2 fires a shot, and shooter 1 records the score. Alternating back and forth, no opportunity to 'run' a good condition, or wait out a 'bad' one. Australia is one of the 'weird' ones, that uses a 'super V' with a different point value, rather than as a tie breaker (or at least they used to).
'Misses' (as in, completely outside the scoring rings, or off the paper entirely) hurts worse on the 10/X target (there's an old joke about half a miss is better than whole miss, when someone just scrapes the edge of the target frame)... and the 20 shot strings are definitely challenging to maintain that level of consistency for that many shots, over changing conditions. On the flip side, the Commonwealth style matches have 'only' 15 shots, and some matches have as few as 7 or 10. Any point or veebull 'dropped' hurts that much more, because there's less opportunity to make it up, or for the other guy to falter.
It can be very much relay dependent. There was a match a few years ago where I was on the first relay @ 700 meters, and squeaked out a very respectable 75-12V. Got me absolutely nothing, other than the satisfaction of 'winning' an eight-way tie for fourth place via count-back!!! The relay that shot after us... would have sold various body parts to have came even *close* that score - not because they weren't good shooters, but because we got the 'bunny' relay, and they got flat-out hosed. With larger multi-day events, that tends to average out - usually.
In countries that are part of the British Commonwealth, they use 5/V targets - so the same ring sizes (for the most part), and the lowest shot value is a '1'. They also typically shoot 'pair' fire i.e. shooter 1 fires a shot, shooter 2 records the score. Then shooter 2 fires a shot, and shooter 1 records the score. Alternating back and forth, no opportunity to 'run' a good condition, or wait out a 'bad' one. Australia is one of the 'weird' ones, that uses a 'super V' with a different point value, rather than as a tie breaker (or at least they used to).
'Misses' (as in, completely outside the scoring rings, or off the paper entirely) hurts worse on the 10/X target (there's an old joke about half a miss is better than whole miss, when someone just scrapes the edge of the target frame)... and the 20 shot strings are definitely challenging to maintain that level of consistency for that many shots, over changing conditions. On the flip side, the Commonwealth style matches have 'only' 15 shots, and some matches have as few as 7 or 10. Any point or veebull 'dropped' hurts that much more, because there's less opportunity to make it up, or for the other guy to falter.
It can be very much relay dependent. There was a match a few years ago where I was on the first relay @ 700 meters, and squeaked out a very respectable 75-12V. Got me absolutely nothing, other than the satisfaction of 'winning' an eight-way tie for fourth place via count-back!!! The relay that shot after us... would have sold various body parts to have came even *close* that score - not because they weren't good shooters, but because we got the 'bunny' relay, and they got flat-out hosed. With larger multi-day events, that tends to average out - usually.
I shoot F-TR(308), not F Open, but for point of reference, I shot a 200-10x in a match at the SWN this yr, and finished 4th In that match. If you and your rifle can’t clean 20 shots (shoot a possible 200) on a 1moa F class target when the conditions are there then you’re not going to be competitive. That’s 20 out of 20 on a 10 inch target at 1000.
At the FCWC in Canada in ‘17 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th finished with the same score after days of shooting separated only by V count, and 7th and 8th had identical scores separated by tie breaker rules (and I came up on the short end)
@milanuk , Monte, you should change your tag from F’ing nuke to F’r nuke, it still won’t mean much to most of them, but some of us will get it.
At the FCWC in Canada in ‘17 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th finished with the same score after days of shooting separated only by V count, and 7th and 8th had identical scores separated by tie breaker rules (and I came up on the short end)
@milanuk , Monte, you should change your tag from F’ing nuke to F’r nuke, it still won’t mean much to most of them, but some of us will get it.
@Josh1978 , What you need to compete are a rifle with a heavy barrel in a chambering that can get bullets to 1000 yards supersonic, be that a 308 to shoot F-TR or some other chamber that you will shoot in Open. The heavy barrel is needed for a heat sink. In a club match I've seen a sporter barrel/lug start to melt the plastic stock on a 243 hunting rifle. I used to say that Danny Biggs could beat me with a 30-30 lever gun when I started (and truth is he might have been able to). Unless you are a savant and have a good mentor the wind is going to whip your butt for a while.
I don't know how far is for you to the Bench Rest Club of StL or to Bucksnort but they both hold 600 yard matches in MO.
If you look in the F-TR forum here and read the stick post I wrote 7 yrs ago not a lot has changed other than some scope options and in F-TR we're all running 200s and not 185s.
I don't know how far is for you to the Bench Rest Club of StL or to Bucksnort but they both hold 600 yard matches in MO.
If you look in the F-TR forum here and read the stick post I wrote 7 yrs ago not a lot has changed other than some scope options and in F-TR we're all running 200s and not 185s.
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224 Valkyrie? Really?? Seriously??? I've sunk thousands and tried three variants ... and still can't get sub-MOA to save my ass when everything else I shoot is in quarter-sized groups (6.5-G, 6.5-CM, 300-WM, 338-L, etc.). Any chance you'd want to buy one of my 224's? Lightly stained in "tears of disappointment", but other than that ... like new.
Id rather have a 6br if those guys are shooting 1/4 moa at 1k or better , and its got really good barrel life , but I love others disappointment either seeing them try harder and achieving or giving up in frustration tears of unimaginable sadness are just so yummy . I enjoyed my 224 I feel it shoots pretty dam well. Its just a lot harder to spot when you miss not to mention frank's video's showed it being shot out to a mile so 1k should be pretty do able and small groups not sure why not . Since its cheaper to shoot than 6.5 cm or any of the other loads you mentioned not sure what the down side really . I am no pro at anything by a long shot but small groups with a 224 sound pretty do able at 1k and a good load sounds like you just have t work harder at it and while my 224 ar only cost me 1k ish my 6.5 bolt gun cost 5xs that cost and it shoots almost as good with factory ammo almost . So maybe its not the best you could get but it is certainly not the worst round one could pick .
and that's a mile .
and that's a mile .
In one of the frank podcasts wit AB they talked about the 224 and it’s potential difficulties.
224 Valkyrie is not one I’d consider for f class.
I think 7 saum would be awesome but acknowledge the appeal of 284 Winchester.
I shoot 308 at 600 and 6.5c at 1000.
Your barrel on 20 shot strings will get hot.
If I decide I like f class I will have something in a 7mm with a 30" barrel built.
Your barrel on 20 shot strings will get hot.
If I decide I like f class I will have something in a 7mm with a 30" barrel built.
This is posted in the F-TR forum here but I'll drop it here too. This is the Open equipment list from the Southwest Nationals in Feb. It includes all the info from those who completed the request for information that the MD put out.
For those unfamiliar with them all of those 284 wildcats are based on the 284 Win.
For those unfamiliar with them all of those 284 wildcats are based on the 284 Win.
yup,
i will never understand people’s desire to run cases designed for AR mags in a bolt gun
in an AICS mag, 224 Valkyrie has no benefit over a .223 rem
same case capacity, same bullet, same velocity at the same charge
at 800-1K, the lighter bullets,
i.e. 224 and even the 6mm get blown around way too much in the wind.
it’s not only the lateral shift, but the vertical dispersion after about 800 yards that will lose you a match
Absolutely said correct. I shoot f class with some friends for fun. I shoot a 6.5 mm and most of my friends shoot 6mm bullets. The 6.5 mm always has a better waterline with less vertical dispersion. If I shot f class seriously I would build a 284 without a doubt.
When you look at the combination of powder capacity, case design and performance it’s easy to see why.
I had a hard time deciding between 284 and 7 saum when finalizing my last build.
You can get an 88gr going 2880 FPS in a 223 accurately with a 26” barrel?
I see no reason why not. I've seen a 80 grain pushed at 3150. Mag fed from a 26 inch krieger. 270fps less for 8 grains more should be doable
yup, guys were pushing the 223/223ai with the 80-90gr bullets, long before the 224 valkyrie existed
all the high power/service rifle and F-TR guys
I ran 80gr ELD-M's at 2950 with a 24" barrel
edit:
probably worth nothing as well
223 rem, you can shoot F-TR
224 Valkyrie, you have to shoot F-open
Josh,
As far as I know, there are still no 1000yd ranges in Kansas. In fact, there's still only one 600yd range, at Central Ks. Gun Club just north of Hutchinson. Mill Creek, near DeSoto, west of Kansas City, has been working on buying a few more acres so they can build a 600yd firing line - last time I knew, they were limited to 500yds. I don't know that either club runs any dedicated F-Class matches, though they may both have some F-Class targets so they can allow F-Class shooters to play along with the sling shooters in Mid-range prone matches. It's been too many years since I last shot at Mill Creek to know what their schedule & types of matches they shoot, but I've driven the 170mi to Hutch twice so far this spring to shoot with those guys. They usually run a KSRA Spring Warm-up match in March or April that includes a 4x600 prone match that's set up with two matches with any sights (most guys run scopes) and two with irons. They presumably will be shooting the Ks State Mid-Range champs in September or October, which will include another 4x600 on Saturday, and a 2x600 team match on Sunday. PM me for contact info.
As much wide-open country as we have in Kansas, it's always disappointed me that we don't have a range complex out in the western end of the state with a 1000yd range with pits. I guess there just aren't enough hi power shooters west of Hutchinson to support a HP program out here. My home club NE of Garden City has run 100yd reduced HP matches since the club built their range, and we used to shoot Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette on our 500M range. Nowadays, the only matches we run on the silhouette range are Benchrest Varmint Silhouette. When I got interested in Palma & LR HP, I drove to either the Whittington Center near Raton, N.M., or Colorado Rifle Club north of Byers, Co. Both those ranges are excellent, though they both expose LR shooters to some very tough wind conditions on a fairly regular basis. During the 1998 N.M. Regional HP Championships, the wind gusts were so violent by the time we'd moved back to 600 that one of the 2x4 wood target frames broke while I was in the pits. The guys at CRC used to run LR weekends, with a 3x600 any rifle/any sights prone match on Saturday, followed by a 3x1000 any/any prone on Sunday. That much shooting made it well worth the drive out (about 270mi for me). I typically shot a 6 Dasher at 600, and a straight 284 on Sunday. A lot of years spent shooting 15lb AR15s in XC HP made me realize that running 74+rds of 180gr loads out of a 15lb 284 was just about my personal limit as far as handling recoil goes. By the middle of the 3rd match at 1000 with my 284, I was typically having to really concentrate to break clean shots without flinching - and this is with a heavy shooting coat & sling. I was still enjoying myself, but had to work harder to avoid the flinch - and I doubt you're going to find many experienced HP shooters who will describe a 284 as 'hard kicking'. I personally loved shooting mine, but you do need to take care during prep in getting your stock adjusted correctly to avoid making the recoil more punishing than it should be.
As far as I know, there are still no 1000yd ranges in Kansas. In fact, there's still only one 600yd range, at Central Ks. Gun Club just north of Hutchinson. Mill Creek, near DeSoto, west of Kansas City, has been working on buying a few more acres so they can build a 600yd firing line - last time I knew, they were limited to 500yds. I don't know that either club runs any dedicated F-Class matches, though they may both have some F-Class targets so they can allow F-Class shooters to play along with the sling shooters in Mid-range prone matches. It's been too many years since I last shot at Mill Creek to know what their schedule & types of matches they shoot, but I've driven the 170mi to Hutch twice so far this spring to shoot with those guys. They usually run a KSRA Spring Warm-up match in March or April that includes a 4x600 prone match that's set up with two matches with any sights (most guys run scopes) and two with irons. They presumably will be shooting the Ks State Mid-Range champs in September or October, which will include another 4x600 on Saturday, and a 2x600 team match on Sunday. PM me for contact info.
As much wide-open country as we have in Kansas, it's always disappointed me that we don't have a range complex out in the western end of the state with a 1000yd range with pits. I guess there just aren't enough hi power shooters west of Hutchinson to support a HP program out here. My home club NE of Garden City has run 100yd reduced HP matches since the club built their range, and we used to shoot Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette on our 500M range. Nowadays, the only matches we run on the silhouette range are Benchrest Varmint Silhouette. When I got interested in Palma & LR HP, I drove to either the Whittington Center near Raton, N.M., or Colorado Rifle Club north of Byers, Co. Both those ranges are excellent, though they both expose LR shooters to some very tough wind conditions on a fairly regular basis. During the 1998 N.M. Regional HP Championships, the wind gusts were so violent by the time we'd moved back to 600 that one of the 2x4 wood target frames broke while I was in the pits. The guys at CRC used to run LR weekends, with a 3x600 any rifle/any sights prone match on Saturday, followed by a 3x1000 any/any prone on Sunday. That much shooting made it well worth the drive out (about 270mi for me). I typically shot a 6 Dasher at 600, and a straight 284 on Sunday. A lot of years spent shooting 15lb AR15s in XC HP made me realize that running 74+rds of 180gr loads out of a 15lb 284 was just about my personal limit as far as handling recoil goes. By the middle of the 3rd match at 1000 with my 284, I was typically having to really concentrate to break clean shots without flinching - and this is with a heavy shooting coat & sling. I was still enjoying myself, but had to work harder to avoid the flinch - and I doubt you're going to find many experienced HP shooters who will describe a 284 as 'hard kicking'. I personally loved shooting mine, but you do need to take care during prep in getting your stock adjusted correctly to avoid making the recoil more punishing than it should be.
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