As this pertains to bolt guns. I see some awesome rifles on these threads. These are like works of art. Beautiful and expensive. I have not made the leap to one yet….its coming; just a lot of college tuition to pay right now (kids). These custom guns all shoot sub moa, as they should. After bedding and or stock changes my run of the mill guns (ruger; savage; browning) all shoot sub moa. If the weather is right (and I am on my game) they will shoot ragged holes with certian factory ammo. Am I just lucky? I just found a range that has 825 yards to it. I could hit out to 400 50% of the time but the jump to 600 was unsuccessful. (I have never shot more than 200 before) We had a 10 knot gusting cross breeze. Will a better quality rifle help me in these pursuits?
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You will find some factory rifles that shoot very well. I have some that shoot great. With that said, none of them shoot as good as y custom rifles do. As for the problems with the hits at 600, you don't say what you are shooting. If you are shooting something like a .223 at 600 with an 11.5 mph crosswind you will have a pretty good bit of wind drift regardless of what tube it is launched out of.
My buddy has a Remmy Sendero that is simply amazing! There is no way it can be improved upon. I have seen him shoot group after group (5 rds) in the .2-.3s over and over again from 300 on in with Hornady factory ammo. Beyond 300 yards it opens up a tad but I don't think it's the rifle but mire of human inputs/errors. Is his rifle The norm? Nope but it does show every now and then you can get a truly accurate rifle in factory form.Typically customs will out shoot factory rifles but most of it comes down to the build being something the factory doesn't offer, like barrel lengths, bolt knobs, twists, etc...
Tell your buddy with the factory sendaro to join the International benchrest shooters Assoc. and he can start setting world records with his factory gun shooting factory ammo.
.2's at 300 with factory ammo... Ill call BS
I'm guessing that is .2-.3 MOA..... but I've been wrong before.
I knew someone was going to say that and I don't blame you. I wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't seen it myself. His dad bought one as did I. Theirs are consecutive serial numbers. I went with a WM but I to sell it befor I could even shoot because of a divorce. His dads rifle isn't nearly as accurate even with him behind it. Also he took it to a school and did pretty damn well with it.
ETA yes I am talking .2 and .3 MOA. I'm typing from a damn IPod and my big fingers and it's spell assist dicks things up...
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Pretty much this. I've seen factory 700's that could shoot with most customs, and I've seen 700's that were pretty much unusable for what most people here want. Most are simply decent. Having a properly built custom pretty much guarantees all the parts in the rifle are working together properly to ensure the best accuracy possible from the components.
Of course, some "factory" guns are going to easily shoot with the customs. Namely the AI rifles, Sako TRG's, and a handful of others that are still "factory" by definition.
When you say they "all shoot sub MOA", is that consistently? Bedding and stock changes do make a big difference, and what you're doing there is taking them out of factory status to custom status anyhow, but the barrel can still make a big difference. Most factory guns can't sustain consistency with the lighter and lesser quality barrels. They may shoot fine for short strings, but they tend to walk much more beyond there.
You're on a budget and that is certainly understandable, but you want to better your long range game. First, stop shooting factory ammunition and put your money into reloading. That is the most cost efficient way to better your accuracy, with proper load development and tuning the load to YOUR rifle. Next, if you're shooting longer strings or getting walking issues with your groups, is to have the barrel replaced with a cut rifled barrel. Barrel jobs aren't as much as many make them out to be, and they can give you a marked improvement in long term performance and satisfaction. Finally, the trigger is often the weakest link in a stock rifle. Having it tuned by a good smith, or swapping out to a higher level unit, can make a big difference.
As for shooting at distance though and your shots falling off there, it sounds like training with a wind meter and proper calls on adjustments might be what you really need...
Between my father and I we have 14 different Rem 700 BDL's from .17 to 300 WM. All of them have been bought used at a average of about $450 each. With bedding and trigger work all shoot sub MOA. Most are about .75 MOA and a few are less than .5 MOA guns. These are all light barreled rifles.
I am about to take the leap and purchase a $3800 custom rifle with a Brux Sendero barrel from AO. If it doesnt shoot less than .3 I will be highly disappointed. However I am 99% postive it will. Does another extra $3400 dollars justify a guarenteed .3 gun? To me, on my buget, NO. But I am in a position to do it and its what I want.
I am about to take the leap and purchase a $3800 custom rifle with a Brux Sendero barrel from AO. If it doesnt shoot less than .3 I will be highly disappointed. However I am 99% postive it will. Does another extra $3400 dollars justify a guarenteed .3 gun? To me, on my buget, NO. But I am in a position to do it and its what I want.
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Yes, as said above factory rifles vary greatly when talking run of the mill assembly line rigs, some shoot great, some good, some not worth a shit, that's the gamble. If stepping up to the TRG or up again to an AI you're entering an area that's right on with most custom rifles. With this step up you're gaining consistency but obviously at a cost. For me and this is my opinion only, the TRG is that middle ground price point wise that is really hard to beat and puts you right on the heals of the custom world at an "affordable" price. Pretty much at this point if your optics and ammo are sorted and your not hitting the target the problem isn't the rifle, it's you.
There is a difference between "My rifle shoots 1/2 MOA when I do my part... for three shot groups... except for that flyer... measuring inside to inside..." and "My rifle is going to be under half MOA every time out and on every shot." If you get a true 1/2 MOA factory rifle, you have a gem. I'm sure it happens. I've just never seen one. (Admittedly, I stopped buying factory rifles a long time ago). A custom from someone who knows what they are doing will be 1/2 MOA or better all the time.
I hate this stuff because it makes new shooters feel like they aren't any good when they break out the Remington and produce 1.25" groups. Here's a secret: Shooting half inch groups off a bench at 100 yards is not hard if your equipment is good. If your rifle is not up to par, it is impossible except by sheer luck. It's a waste of good ammo to try to improve on 1 MOA from a factory rifle, and there are plenty that can't even get to 1 MOA. Varmint setups are an exception in my experience, and seem be good for about .75 MOA. And Ruger #1's, which are scary accurate for no good reason.
I hate this stuff because it makes new shooters feel like they aren't any good when they break out the Remington and produce 1.25" groups. Here's a secret: Shooting half inch groups off a bench at 100 yards is not hard if your equipment is good. If your rifle is not up to par, it is impossible except by sheer luck. It's a waste of good ammo to try to improve on 1 MOA from a factory rifle, and there are plenty that can't even get to 1 MOA. Varmint setups are an exception in my experience, and seem be good for about .75 MOA. And Ruger #1's, which are scary accurate for no good reason.
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Factory rifle accuracy vs. Custom rifles
.2 - .3 MOA at 300. Care to post some 3/4" groups?
Hmmmm....
.2 - .3 MOA at 300. Care to post some 3/4" groups?
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I have a completely stock Remington 700, 24" stainless heavy barrel. I have never gotten scientific with it, but when we sighted in it (crappy bushnell elite scope on top) it shot a 3/4 MOA from about 100-120 yards. It's a great shooter.
That being said I just bought an Accuracy International AX folder for it. I plan on putting the rifle in that stock and upgrading it as money allows. I'm excited to get the stock (should be here today) and see how I like it. I would rather just buy the entire kit and caboodle at one time, but I can't afford it.
That being said I just bought an Accuracy International AX folder for it. I plan on putting the rifle in that stock and upgrading it as money allows. I'm excited to get the stock (should be here today) and see how I like it. I would rather just buy the entire kit and caboodle at one time, but I can't afford it.
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Agreed although there are some Factory rifles that are more "hit" than miss by a long shot (pun intended).
One that I've found is the Remington 700 SS 5-R Milspec in .308. The factory stock is "so-so" as is the oft hated X-Mark Pro trigger. When I bought mine and it was in out of the box condition it shot sub 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. Several F-Class shooters locally shot these with great success. Cost of the rifle, when I bought it, was $1100. I started with a $300 scope and never moved up to a top end piece of glass until I started shooting beyond 300 yards.
It's also a great rifle to build on. Change the stock, change the trigger, and then add some top-end glass. For me this has been a sub 1/2 MOA rifle at all ranges with those upgrades.
Even when new it was shooting right alongside some of the Custom's like GAP and Les Baer Tacticals for $2K less. Of course this was with hand-loads. Still shot good with factory loads, best of which was the Federal GMM 175 SMK.
It would be a great idea to go to a NBRSA or IBRSA match and watch what kind of accuracy can be achieved. It might push you in the direction of a custom build.
It would also be a good idea to bring GhostFace's friend so he can he what ".2-.3" groups look like and how they are accomplished.
It would also be a good idea to bring GhostFace's friend so he can he what ".2-.3" groups look like and how they are accomplished.
A custom rifle is not assurance, it's a guarantee.
A factory rifle is a role of a 1000 sided dice with one side being much larger than the rest.
You will be able to tell how good of a shooter you are and how inconsistent factory rifles are once you get behind a custom and produce not only better groups at any distance but more consistent group sizes group to group.
I went from a factory R700 .308 that I thought shot well since I could produce an occasional .5" group. I could not hit a IPSC at 1K with any sort of consistency. When I trued the action and had a bartlein chambered in .260 spun up and installed in a T4A w/mini chassis I was amazed. The gun fit me for one, my groups improved and they were consistent and predictable.
Now a days I'm going to bed a 6 Creedmoor chambered Defiance in a T5A. I expect even better results due to the bed job as opposed to chassis.
All this being said, there may be a factory rifle/shooter package that can shoot lights out at distance but I have not seen one.
A factory rifle is a role of a 1000 sided dice with one side being much larger than the rest.
You will be able to tell how good of a shooter you are and how inconsistent factory rifles are once you get behind a custom and produce not only better groups at any distance but more consistent group sizes group to group.
I went from a factory R700 .308 that I thought shot well since I could produce an occasional .5" group. I could not hit a IPSC at 1K with any sort of consistency. When I trued the action and had a bartlein chambered in .260 spun up and installed in a T4A w/mini chassis I was amazed. The gun fit me for one, my groups improved and they were consistent and predictable.
Now a days I'm going to bed a 6 Creedmoor chambered Defiance in a T5A. I expect even better results due to the bed job as opposed to chassis.
All this being said, there may be a factory rifle/shooter package that can shoot lights out at distance but I have not seen one.
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A custom rifle is not a guarantee of anything. It's only as good as the gunsmith behind it.
And for those of you who have never seen a factory rifle outperform a custom rifle, you must never have seen an Accuracy International.
And for those of you who have never seen a factory rifle outperform a custom rifle, you must never have seen an Accuracy International.
factory rifles can shoot great with a decent bedding job and free floating, but they still are rather finicky about which ammo you feed them. A custom rifle tends to like everything a lot better and love some good handloads
Fair enough but for $4k it better shoot or it better get fixed. IMO.
It's the other way around.
How so?
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Factory rifle accuracy vs. Custom rifles
When you bed and free float it becomes custom, but the chamber stays the same. Factory rifles have standard or compromise chambers and throats designed to feed and work well with everything. Custom rifles have custom chambers. Therefore custom rifles might need match ammo or good handloads, but factory rifles can be immediately improved with good handloads.
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I'll be going full blown custom sometime in the next year. 700 action, bartlein, McM A5, the works.
That said i couldn't bring myself to rid of my factory barreled action that i'm using right now. I was going to get two bartleins. I have a 5R bedded in a McM A5 with APA DBM and bolt knob. With my handloads it's very impressive for a factory barreled action IMHO.
That said i couldn't bring myself to rid of my factory barreled action that i'm using right now. I was going to get two bartleins. I have a 5R bedded in a McM A5 with APA DBM and bolt knob. With my handloads it's very impressive for a factory barreled action IMHO.
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As stated earlier, a factory gun is a crap shoot( AI & Sako Trg's notwithstanding) Customs offer superior accuracy that can be counted on. I've had some factory rifles that shot well, but they would not shoot < half MOA day day out. At long range, you really don't want to wonder if that wide shot was due to a bad wind call or just a mediocre rifle.
I think a big factor is: How much are you going to use it? I have a good solid factory rifle (Rem 5R Milspec). I look here and drool over all the sexy kit everyone seems to have. The truth is, I don't go to the range as often as I could or should. *For me*, it's not a good return on investment to spend 4K on a rifle + 3K on a scope, to go shooting 4 to 5 times a year.
I say if you are *really* going to get some use out of a custom, by all means get it. My point is, if you are going to have sex with the supermodel all the time, she is worth it; but to spank the monkey on this forum that you have this, and that you have that… well, it seems like an awful lot of money to spend on a centerfold...
I say if you are *really* going to get some use out of a custom, by all means get it. My point is, if you are going to have sex with the supermodel all the time, she is worth it; but to spank the monkey on this forum that you have this, and that you have that… well, it seems like an awful lot of money to spend on a centerfold...
I completely disagree. For an entire long range kit you could have easily over $10K invested. If I were to only use it 4 times a year I want to hit the target, not the dirt. Why spend all the time developing a near perfect handload and not get the reward of the sound the steel makes when it gets smacked because you shot it out of a half ass rifle? Its not like the gun is going to go bad aside from using it. Barrels are cheap. Not hitting your target due to a lack of skill is expensive and frustrating. Why compound the problem by shooing a gun that is inconsistent? It will prevent you from realizing your potential as a shooter.
I think the correct analogy would be, if you are only going to get laid 4 times a year why not do it with the baddest girl/guy or whatever you're into?
My first initial response to was going to be, hmmmmm.... care to kiss my ass?
But with my being the type of smart ass guy that I am I probably would have posted the same smart ass question that you did (LOL). I say again it is not my rifle, it is my friends.I don't take too many pics of the groups that I shoot much less someone else's. After he got hurt on their departments swat team about four years ago he doesn't shoot much anymore, I don't know why. He keeps buying guns, reoading equipement and ammo but getting him to go to the range is like him going to the dentist. I have seen him shoot 1 inch groups at 300 yards with Hornady 168 AMAX on several occcassions...period. (Although I have shot a 1.45 inch 5 shot group at 360 with a custom stick and handloads) I can't do it, not with my rifle nor his but he can and has, many times...period. I don't know much about benchrest but if you or anyone else says that is a world record then I'll tell the little fucker that and maybe he will get his ass to the range or start shooting in comps. And by the way I shoot with three other other cops and two can stack 5 rounds covering a dime (100 yards) time after after time with a semi custom 700 and 168 AMAX. They practice this shit constantly, this copper doesn't. When we train I like to shoot under stress and in messed up positions. When they get out of their comfort zone their groups open up. I have to keep telling them what we do isn't benchrest. Anyway I am throwing this thread off. I take it personal being called liar and the implication kinda pisses me off but I do understand the skepticism(sp?). I would find it hard to believe too but believe what you wish...I'm not lying or telling a fishing story. I have nothing to gain by lying to a bunch guys I will never see. But I do have everything to loose by lying...my integrity....
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Factory rifle accuracy vs. Custom rifles
I never called you a liar. I wasn't there. I am simply clarifying what you are claiming.
A dime is .7 inches wide. Subtract the width of a 168AMAX at .308. That's consistent five shot .3 MOA groups with a 'semi custom' Remington 700 shooting factory ammo.
I never called you a liar. I wasn't there. I am simply clarifying what you are claiming.
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I respectfully disagree, a rifle is not a custom rifle unless it has been blueprinted and has a custom lapped stress relieved barrel on it. All custom rifles don't have tight chambers, many have saami spec chambers and necks. It's more of what reamer dimensions suit the application. I don't think a factory rifle that has been bedded and floated qualifies as a custom rifle, just a repaired factory rifle. In my experience factory barrels tend to have small accuracy nodes and are much pickier, they can shoot good but they aren't as consistently good across the board as a custom rifle that has a much wider node and tends to be more accurate in the node
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I am not going to debate the definition of 'custom' rifle, but I never said that all custom rifles have tight chambers. I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but I wish you wouldn't change what I said in order to disagree.
What do you mean that factory barrels have 'smaller' accuracy nodes and are 'pickier', while custom rifles have 'wider' nodes and are 'more accurate' in the node?
What do you mean that factory barrels have 'smaller' accuracy nodes and are 'pickier', while custom rifles have 'wider' nodes and are 'more accurate' in the node?
.3 MOA groups at 300yds is around 1" is it not? Or are we talking three tenths of an inch at 300.
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A .3 moa at 300 yards would equal .942" A moa at 100 yards equals 1.047" Also a custom rifle does not have to have a receiver trued up or any internal parts polished or honed. 30+ years before the plastic stock fad appeared custom rifle builders such as Paul Jaeger would make rifles to customer specifications using commercial receivers such as the FN Belgian or Winchester M70
I googled “Graham” and among the results were…Jesus, GOD, all knowing, “been there, done that, bought every T-Shirt in every color and size,” and also “Inventor of the wheel” came up as well. Im sorry we ever questioned you Oh great leader of not contributing ANYTHING useful. The rest of us trying to better our knowledge through the “Art of the Forum” while everything you contribute is worth less than a 2 ply sheet of shit paper. Sit and spin buddy, sit and SPIN! Calling GhostFace a liar is exactly what you are doing, I don’t feel that anyone needed clarification of how big a hole a dime can cover, If for sure cant cover the that hole in your head you call a mouth. Clearly you spend more time behind a keyboard then a rifle.
Damn! I thought I disagreed with Graham from time to time.
Factory rifle accuracy vs. Custom rifles
My post wasn't intended to surface any of your unresolved personal issues, but the proof is in your name-calling and personal attacks.
And now that you mention it, isn't it ironic that you throw a tantrum about someone else wasting bandwidth.
I do spend more time behind a keyboard than I do a rifle. And I don't for a moment believe that you do otherwise.
My post wasn't intended to surface any of your unresolved personal issues, but the proof is in your name-calling and personal attacks.
And now that you mention it, isn't it ironic that you throw a tantrum about someone else wasting bandwidth.
Don't know why anyone is pissed at him. All you have to do is post some groups...
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This couldn't be any more of an incorrect statement, as an absolute, than it already is.
Example:
Custom = TacticalRifles.net rifle
Factory = SAKO or AI
Now which is assurance and which is hit or miss?
See my post just above
A custom generally has a close tolerance chamber that is very finicky when it comes to what ammo you can cycle through it. A custom generally shines with handloads.
Point well taken.
I'm just trying to look at the big picture. The OP said he can shoot "sub moa" with his present guns (assuming .308 @ 100 yards). To me that means on an average day he should be able to shoot at a 20 inch steel plate at 1000 yards, and hit it consistently *as long as his calculations are correct and dialed into the gun*. I have done this with a $1000 rifle sporting an $800 dollar scope and none of the shots hit "the dirt". To me when he says that there was a 50% hit ratio at 400 yards and 0% at 600 yards, it means there is something else going on here. WITH THE HELP OF AN EXPERT SPOTTER, I personally hit steel targets at 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, and 1000 yards (10 to 12 mph full value wind and FGMM 175 gr) with no real problem (once again, full credit to an honest to goodness marine sniper spotting, I was just the monkey on the gun) with my $ 1,800 set up.
IMHO the problem must be something else. With all due respect, throwing 10K at it, is not necessary to solve it.
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I agree.
I was referring to the Remage types of factory offerings. I should have been more clear.
If hitting big targets is your thing then that makes sense. If hitting small is your goal, start with known quality and your flaws will come to the surface because the flaws in the gun have been reduced.
That $10k gets you a Terrapin, weather station, spotter, scope that tracks...
I went down the road of budget and got board real quick.
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I have several factory rifles and custom rifles, I have had great results from my factories while I've shot others that doesn't do what mine have. I belive I have been lucky with mine though. My savage 308 is one of the most accurate rifles I've ever shot. BUT.... I carry my customs out and feel I can depend on them more and they will be more consistent. I have not had bad luck out of my customs where my factory rifles might shoot great a lot and then one day just seem to be different. And I cant expain why it isn't doing what it did other times. And when I go custom its with good smiths that I know I can trust. I have customs from GAP, Surgeon, Young guns, David Christman, Leanord Baity, George Kelbly, Murray Crowe, and Tom Sarver. All of mine shoot great and have been very reliable. All the time. That's what I feel like I'm getting from a custom. But I cant say that my M70 Larado 300WM hasn't impressed the hell out of me before. I shot a BR match with it one time at 600 yds and 3 shots were clover leafed, granted 2 shot were 4" away but it is what it is. MY factory SPS has shot several sub moa groups at 900 yds but has been a solid 1 moa rifle a few times not breaking below. Seems that my customs are always the same. When I don't shoot great with them it seems the conditions just suck anyway, that's where a data book can come in handy. If you are going to take it serious and can swing it I say go custom. Even if its something like GAPs base custom rifle. That's a great rig to shoot. I wouldn't feel held back at all with it. A lot of people seem to do really well with factory rifles (at least on the net) but I feel more confident with my customs. particularly my 6.5 CM by GAP (Nothing super fancy but great parts) as its NEVER acted funny outside the first box of shells or so and were at 1850 right now with a new bbl on the way. Figured I would get a new tube while its in the shop for an EFR.
Good luck
Good luck
Understood
700 factory pics
Factory rifles are factory rifles. You are always rolling the dice but I've had good luck with my sendero and 700p's. Someone with software can feel free to let me know what my factory rifles are doing as far as MOA (All squares are 1" I believe). I'm sure they aren't close to .3moa, but I don't think I'm a consistent .3moa shooter either.
700p 308- 300 yd five shot. I then fired my remaining 2 after I played with my AR a bit. Wind had picked up just a bit and presumably pushed them slightly high and right, but still not bad for an 800$ rifle. Note, the two rounds (223) on the Birchwood target aren't mine.
700p- 600yds, 5 shots-- damn you pulled flier....but they all count!
700 7mm sendero- 1 sighter and then 2 consecutive 3 shot groups during load development for 162AMAXs.
The 7mm has produced numerous 5 shot groups that you can cover with a dime with my 140NBT hunting load at 100yds. It shot the Hornady Heavy mag loads (139's IIRC) in the .5-.6moa range.
Both rifles have had their triggers tuned to approximately 2.75-3lbs, have been threaded, but otherwise are bone stock.
I just had a custom 260 built that I hope to perform as well or better. If nothing else, I feel the bartlein barrel will be more tolerant on my loads during development. A good factory rifle can shoot well, but when the load doesn't work, it is very evident in my limited experience.
And the biggest question for a shooter looking for a rifle should be whether that extra .2moa is work the extra 2k that it may take to achieve that. Just my .02$
Factory rifles are factory rifles. You are always rolling the dice but I've had good luck with my sendero and 700p's. Someone with software can feel free to let me know what my factory rifles are doing as far as MOA (All squares are 1" I believe). I'm sure they aren't close to .3moa, but I don't think I'm a consistent .3moa shooter either.
700p 308- 300 yd five shot. I then fired my remaining 2 after I played with my AR a bit. Wind had picked up just a bit and presumably pushed them slightly high and right, but still not bad for an 800$ rifle. Note, the two rounds (223) on the Birchwood target aren't mine.
700p- 600yds, 5 shots-- damn you pulled flier....but they all count!
700 7mm sendero- 1 sighter and then 2 consecutive 3 shot groups during load development for 162AMAXs.
The 7mm has produced numerous 5 shot groups that you can cover with a dime with my 140NBT hunting load at 100yds. It shot the Hornady Heavy mag loads (139's IIRC) in the .5-.6moa range.
Both rifles have had their triggers tuned to approximately 2.75-3lbs, have been threaded, but otherwise are bone stock.
I just had a custom 260 built that I hope to perform as well or better. If nothing else, I feel the bartlein barrel will be more tolerant on my loads during development. A good factory rifle can shoot well, but when the load doesn't work, it is very evident in my limited experience.
And the biggest question for a shooter looking for a rifle should be whether that extra .2moa is work the extra 2k that it may take to achieve that. Just my .02$
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