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Faxon Barrel for a lightweight 6.5 creedmoor build or something else?

giannid

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 20, 2017
145
13
Chagrin Falls, Ohio
I'm looking to build a lightweight 6.5 Creedmoor in an 18 inch barrel maximum size for a lightweight thermal hunting rig. After doing some research, there's not a lot out there. Seems like only thing I can find in stock is a Faxon, Rainier arms ultramatch mod 2 or a carbon fiber BSF. Was actually even considering the Faxon in a 16 inch. Gun is going to be used as a thermal hunting gun so I'd say the maximum distance is 400 yards and even that is unlikely. Just seems like my options are very limited. The Faxon reviews seemed to be mixed, not a lot on the Rainier and not a big fan of the BSF carbon fiber. I purchased a 6 mm Creedmoor BSF barrel and it gave me nothing but problems. Not really trying to do it on a budget either. If Proof had an 18 inch, I wouldn't even consider buying something else.

Anyone have any suggestions or can offer up some advice? I'll be hand loading for it and looking for something that just shoots. Don't know much about some of the barrel builder out there but I really prefer not to wait 6 months to a year for a barrel. Would even consider something used if it's a proven shooter.
 
Surely you can find more choices in stock.
Are you limiting yourself to only a certain place or two ?
BA, Proof, Odin, and Faxon in stock here... (reputable store)
BA, Aero, some other stuff here ....(reputable store)
Criterion in stock...
Proof, Faxon, BA. Rainier, V7....etc etc here
LIlja keeps prefits in stock (and they kick ass)
CLE has Criterions ready to ship

Sure you can't find one ?
 
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Wilson combat makes a 18” slimmed down barrel in 6.5 creedmoor. Tactical hunter I believe its called.
 
Surely you can find more choices in stock.
Are you limiting yourself to only a certain place or two ?
BA, Proof, Odin, and Faxon in stock here... (reputable store)
BA, Aero, some other stuff here ....(reputable store)
Criterion in stock...
Proof, Faxon, BA. Rainier, V7....etc etc here
LIlja keeps prefits in stock (and they kick ass)
CLE has Criterions ready to ship

Sure you can't find one ?
Not limiting myself to anything. None of these are relatively lite or short enough. That's why I asked :)
 
What is the max weight in ounces you are looking for?
 
You won’t find a lot of Faxon lovers here.
I’ve got 2 rifles that I’ve put their barrels on. I have zero complaints about either. They both perform far beyond average.
 
You won’t find a lot of Faxon lovers here.
I’ve got 2 rifles that I’ve put their barrels on. I have zero complaints about either. They both perform far beyond average.
Any of the 6.5 creedmoor. I think there's a big difference between a 5.56 and a 6.5
 
Not sure what vendor on the hide had it, but in my browsing recently I saw someone had 18" proof Carbon 6.5CM barrels in stock. Was a rifle length gas. If I find it again I will post a link.

I thought 20" CM was proofs shortest till I saw that.
 
I don't have experience in 6.5 and Faxon but I do have 1 in 14.5" Gunner profile and a fluted 20" in .224 Valkyrie and both exceeded my expectations in the accuracy department. Guess I got lucky!
 
Not sure what vendor on the hide had it, but in my browsing recently I saw someone had 18" proof Carbon 6.5CM barrels in stock. Was a rifle length gas. If I find it again I will post a link.

I thought 20" CM was proofs shortest till I saw that.
Let me know. That would be awesome
 
I have several faxon barrels that are reasonably accurate, but the last 2 builds I’ve used ballistic advantage, I have to say for a budget barrel I was shocked by how accurate they are, and they have good choices with their lightweight profiles, if weight is your primary concern I would look at the faxon heavy fluted it’s around 2.3 pounds(I have the 308 version on a rifle), if your willing to accept a little more weight then the BA Hanson.
 
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If you are interested take a look at what F4 Defense and Roam use for their rifles as they both come in under 7 pounds.
 
I have a Faxon 20" Match 416r 5R Heavy Fluted barrel on my 6.5 Grendel, and it's shooting 1/2 MOA or better with handloads. I've even gotten some groups in the .3xx" range. No complaints here. The only thing I could critique, is Faxon doesn't dimple their barrels for proper gas block location, which is kind of stupid. But it is what it is. It's not hard to center a gas block, and seat it .025" off the shoulder with a feeler gauge.
 
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Why does it have to be light? A light weight barrel will heat up faster and radiate heat like mad. You need to think about heat mitigation via heat shield like the French FR F2.

No free lunch. A light weight barrel heats up faster but cools faster a heavier takes longer to heat up and cools more slowly. I like the French solution.

The OP stated it was for a light weight thermal hunting rig so the extra couple pounds of a heavier barrel vs a lighter barrel can make a world of difference when you are already toting around a bunch of heavy gear and your shots will be few and far between.
 
Why does it have to be light? A light weight barrel will heat up faster and radiate heat like mad. You need to think about heat mitigation via heat shield like the French FR F2.

No free lunch. A light weight barrel heats up faster but cools faster a heavier takes longer to heat up and cools more slowly. I like the French solution.
Because I'll be carrying it for long distances. I also won't be doing mag dumps out of it hunting so heating up will not be an issue.
 
I have an 18” criterion hybrid profile that’s 2.75 lbs and it shoots great. Very handy little rifle.
 
I went with a 16” Wilson Combat. My AR308 built on a standard aero set is about 7 lb 8 Oz naked with no lightweight parts
 

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I had to have a gunsmith reprofile the feed cone in my Faxon 6.5CM AR308 barrel so VLDs would not hang up. The factory Faxon profile is way too abrupt and short. Maybe they have fixed this, but when I contacted them they were not interested in hearing any feedback.

Not a huge Faxon fan after that.

ETA: I'd check to see if the Criterion 16" are in stock: https://criterionbarrels.com/produc...5-creedmoor-ar-barrel-nitride/?v=7516fd43adaa
 
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I built with a 16” Faxon lightweight barrel in 6.5 CM trying to get a rifle under 7 pounds as well. I’ve been happy with it. Consistent under 1 MOA, which is good enough for my purposes.
+1
I did one on an extra M5 receiver set I had just for something more manageable w/ a can during deer season. That Gunner profile barrel is easily under 1 MOA w/ factory Hornady ammunition and the weight/length reduction is wonderful. It is a very handy gun, but it is also spectacularly loud when the can is not mounted over the brake.
If you go that route, keep in mind it is a wise idea to have an adjustable gas block. I had to add a heavier buffer as well. YMMV, good luck.
 
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I had to have a gunsmith reprofile the feed cone in my Faxon 6.5CM AR308 barrel so VLDs would not hang up. The factory Faxon profile is way too abrupt and short. Maybe they have fixed this, but when I contacted them they were not interested in hearing any feedback.

Not a huge Faxon fan after that.

ETA: I'd check to see if the Criterion 16" are in stock: https://criterionbarrels.com/produc...5-creedmoor-ar-barrel-nitride/?v=7516fd43adaa
I’ve sadly found this issue on the web AFTER buying a 18” Gunner profile and having all sorts of cycling problems. I sent Faxon a few pics of various factory ammo hanging up on the feed cone (sometimes noticeably shortening the round). To their credit (July 2023) they acknowledged the problem and said a remedy is to either try Lancer mags (I have 10rd PMAG) or to try and file the top of the mag catch - this will LOWER the magazine height. Apparently, because the 6.5 rounds are so narrow at the end, the feed ramps don’t elevate the bullets enough to go into the chamber smoothly every time (hence the brass marks right on the chamfered edge of the feed come). I’ve got a Lancer mag on order and a file (also, a couple of extra mag catches “in case”).

For Faxon - can’t they just make a 6.5 specific feed ramp? Seems they’re using a 308 set.
 
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I’ve sadly found this issue on the web AFTER buying a 18” Gunner profile and having all sorts of cycling problems. I sent Faxon a few pics of various factory ammo hanging up on the feed cone (sometimes noticeably shortening the round). To their credit (July 2023) they acknowledged the problem and said a remedy is to either try Lancer mags (I have 10rd PMAG) or to try and file the top of the mag catch - this will LOWER the magazine height. Apparently, because the 6.5 rounds are so narrow at the end, the feed ramps don’t elevate the bullets enough to go into the chamber smoothly every time (hence the brass marks right on the chamfered edge of the feed come). I’ve got a Lancer mag on order and a file (also, a couple of extra mag catches “in case”).

For Faxon - can’t they just make a 6.5 specific feed ramp? Seems they’re using a 308 set.
I’m replying to myself now: tried the Lancer mag and filing the mag catch - no difference. I’m going to try some poly-tipped rounds and see if they’ll feed. Otherwise I’m going for something else. Criterion’s page show their feed cone to be wider/better shape - I’ll give that a try.
 
I’ve sadly found this issue on the web AFTER buying a 18” Gunner profile and having all sorts of cycling problems. I sent Faxon a few pics of various factory ammo hanging up on the feed cone (sometimes noticeably shortening the round). To their credit (July 2023) they acknowledged the problem and said a remedy is to either try Lancer mags (I have 10rd PMAG) or to try and file the top of the mag catch - this will LOWER the magazine height. Apparently, because the 6.5 rounds are so narrow at the end, the feed ramps don’t elevate the bullets enough to go into the chamber smoothly every time (hence the brass marks right on the chamfered edge of the feed come). I’ve got a Lancer mag on order and a file (also, a couple of extra mag catches “in case”).

For Faxon - can’t they just make a 6.5 specific feed ramp? Seems they’re using a 308 set.
Have you had to deal with the gas tube length issue? Faxon is an oddball, halfway between DPMS/AR-15 and ArmaLite AR-10 rifle length ports.
 
I’m of the opinion, after over 20 years of dealing with AR-10s, that when you get into a different cartridge, the system really needs to be engineered together to get it to work reliably, by people who know what they’re doing.

For simple static mechanical fit, sure you can drop a barrel into an AR-10 and say, “mission accomplished”, but you’re usually just at the beginning of your problems.

From an engineering standpoint, 6.5 Creedmoor is a different rifle for several reasons, starting with bore volume, propellant burn rates common to it, the subsequent port pressure, and gas volume flow into the system. Then there are the differences in the feed geometry of a smaller diameter projectile with typically long, secant ogives. This is before we talk about suppressing it.

Unless you like to experience malfunctions and then go back and tinker with the system repeatedly, I really steer in the direction of having a fully-tested complete firearm from a company that has decades of experience with the AR-10/SR-25 frame, or pyramid-tested their rifles before taking them to market.

Challenges you are facing:

Lightweight
Suppressed
6.5 Creedmoor
Don’t want to wait for a built-to-fit your needs solution

If it were me and I was dead-set on that cartridge, I would also consider a 14.5” since it will be suppressed. I would go 14.5” with as long as a gas system as I could, built with top-shelf components by myself or one of the few shops I trust.

KAC has done a lot of work to make the suppressed 14.5” and 16” 6.5CM SR-25s work.
JP is another place I would turn to.
GAP has built some superb, reliable AR-10s for me in the past that shoot lights-out, one in .308 Win and the other in .260 Rem, with custom chambers.
Seekins has done a lot to make 6.5CM work in the large frame
DDV5 V4 with their elongated cam pin helix, new tungsten carrier weight, new metallurgy, slick DLC finish

Here’s a thread that’s relevant to your intent.
 
Have you had to deal with the gas tube length issue? Faxon is an oddball, halfway between DPMS/AR-15 and ArmaLite AR-10 rifle length ports.
I have a Superlative Arms adjustable gas block and rifle-length tube, so it wasn’t too terrible getting it to lock back on the empty mag (though I did have a little trouble with a couple “snug” cases that had to be mortared out early on).
 
I’m of the opinion, after over 20 years of dealing with AR-10s, that when you get into a different cartridge, the system really needs to be engineered together to get it to work reliably, by people who know what they’re doing.

For simple static mechanical fit, sure you can drop a barrel into an AR-10 and say, “mission accomplished”, but you’re usually just at the beginning of your problems.

From an engineering standpoint, 6.5 Creedmoor is a different rifle for several reasons, starting with bore volume, propellant burn rates common to it, the subsequent port pressure, and gas volume flow into the system. Then there are the differences in the feed geometry of a smaller diameter projectile with typically long, secant ogives. This is before we talk about suppressing it.

Unless you like to experience malfunctions and then go back and tinker with the system repeatedly, I really steer in the direction of having a fully-tested complete firearm from a company that has decades of experience with the AR-10/SR-25 frame, or pyramid-tested their rifles before taking them to market.

Challenges you are facing:

Lightweight
Suppressed
6.5 Creedmoor
Don’t want to wait for a built-to-fit your needs solution

If it were me and I was dead-set on that cartridge, I would also consider a 14.5” since it will be suppressed. I would go 14.5” with as long as a gas system as I could, built with top-shelf components by myself or one of the few shops I trust.

KAC has done a lot of work to make the suppressed 14.5” and 16” 6.5CM SR-25s work.
JP is another place I would turn to.
GAP has built some superb, reliable AR-10s for me in the past that shoot lights-out, one in .308 Win and the other in .260 Rem, with custom chambers.
Seekins has done a lot to make 6.5CM work in the large frame
DDV5 V4 with their elongated cam pin helix, new tungsten carrier weight, new metallurgy, slick DLC finish

Here’s a thread that’s relevant to your intent.
These are all fantastic points. Honestly, I wanted to build the rifle and don’t mind tinkering a little, but this situation with the feeding is too much - hence looking for a different barrel. As for KAC, I think they’re super cool and I understand the “why” of their system, but for my hobby-level interest, a $3k upper is just too much.
 
These are all fantastic points. Honestly, I wanted to build the rifle and don’t mind tinkering a little, but this situation with the feeding is too much - hence looking for a different barrel. As for KAC, I think they’re super cool and I understand the “why” of their system, but for my hobby-level interest, a $3k upper is just too much.
When I was younger and more over-confident after decades of experience with the AR-15, I still sent my AR-10 work to GA Precision and let them work their magic rather than trying to do it myself. That was in the late 2000s.

The more I look under the hood of the Savage MSR-10 design, it feels like someone copy-and-pasted one of my wishlists for a smaller frame AR-10 many years ago. I impulse-bought one during Wuhanflu in a 16” .308 just because that’s what was on the shelf.

Fluted barrel
Adjustable gas regulator on the block with mechanical advantage, not a tiny Allen wrench
True free-floated handguard that only attaches to the upper, no contact with the barrel nut
AR-10 sized bolt and extension
Dual ejectors
Hard chrome carrier
Triangular firing pin shaft for less pre-travel vibration (helps with precision)
Spring-loaded firing pin to prevent floating and pressure-induced firing pin rearward momentum (AR-10s without sprung FPs beat FP retaining pins to hell.)
Well-designed smaller frame receiver set with nice, tight finish and fit
2-stage trigger
A5/ArmaLite RET and carbine buffer

I’ve been thinking that a 13.7-14.5” barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor would be really nice in this little Savage, maybe from Proof. I then visualize what that experience would be through the sight picture and have to accept that sight picture disturbance where I can’t spot for myself will likely be the reality, unless I only shoot 107gr SMK with fast-burning powder.

This pushes me back into my current comfort zone with the seven 6.5 Grendels I have and the AR-10s continue to sit collecting dust. I still have my .260 Laser GAP built, but haven’t shot it in years now. That rifle is reliable too, extremely-flat shooting, very fun to throttle through multiple targets at distance.

I do a lot of positional shooting in my courses and I like to see my own impacts, so you start to see where 6.5 Grendel really sells itself for me, plus I don’t have to tinker with trying to get a larger frame gasser running. I went through a long AR-10 phase and have owned 5 of them, worked on and run through dozens more along the way. They’re just kind of big and clunky. I love the downrange performance of a 155gr-175gr .308 or 130-147gr 6.5mm impacting the steel, but want to see it for myself through the optic when shooting suppressed.

The case volume, reciprocating mass, and how these rifles behave just don’t support being able to spot for yourself very well like with the AR-15. It’s not a big problem when shooting with a well-trained spotter, so they’re still viable in that regard. I enjoy the 130gr Berger VLD the most from the AR-10 due to how flat it shoots, how hard it hits, and how well it reaches past 1000yds. Case life for me in the .260 Rem is really short, so it requires a lot of brass prep only to lose the brass after 3-4 firings, which is not cool at over $1/piece.

This kind of steers me back into just keeping the Savage in .308 and shooting some of the newer high BC bullets from Nosler and Berger, since .308 brass tends to last much longer if you’re using Lake City, MEN, or Lapua. Honestly, my only use for the .308 at this point is to illustrate what I’m talking about to people coming through courses so they can see the sight picture between Grendel and .308, and hear the impacts of both on-TGT.
 
When I was younger and more over-confident after decades of experience with the AR-15, I still sent my AR-10 work to GA Precision and let them work their magic rather than trying to do it myself. That was in the late 2000s.

The more I look under the hood of the Savage MSR-10 design, it feels like someone copy-and-pasted one of my wishlists for a smaller frame AR-10 many years ago. I impulse-bought one during Wuhanflu in a 16” .308 just because that’s what was on the shelf.

Fluted barrel
Adjustable gas regulator on the block with mechanical advantage, not a tiny Allen wrench
True free-floated handguard that only attaches to the upper, no contact with the barrel nut
AR-10 sized bolt and extension
Dual ejectors
Hard chrome carrier
Triangular firing pin shaft for less pre-travel vibration (helps with precision)
Spring-loaded firing pin to prevent floating and pressure-induced firing pin rearward momentum (AR-10s without sprung FPs beat FP retaining pins to hell.)
Well-designed smaller frame receiver set with nice, tight finish and fit
2-stage trigger
A5/ArmaLite RET and carbine buffer

I’ve been thinking that a 13.7-14.5” barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor would be really nice in this little Savage, maybe from Proof. I then visualize what that experience would be through the sight picture and have to accept that sight picture disturbance where I can’t spot for myself will likely be the reality, unless I only shoot 107gr SMK with fast-burning powder.

This pushes me back into my current comfort zone with the seven 6.5 Grendels I have and the AR-10s continue to sit collecting dust. I still have my .260 Laser GAP built, but haven’t shot it in years now. That rifle is reliable too, extremely-flat shooting, very fun to throttle through multiple targets at distance.

I do a lot of positional shooting in my courses and I like to see my own impacts, so you start to see where 6.5 Grendel really sells itself for me, plus I don’t have to tinker with trying to get a larger frame gasser running. I went through a long AR-10 phase and have owned 5 of them, worked on and run through dozens more along the way. They’re just kind of big and clunky. I love the downrange performance of a 155gr-175gr .308 or 130-147gr 6.5mm impacting the steel, but want to see it for myself through the optic when shooting suppressed.

The case volume, reciprocating mass, and how these rifles behave just don’t support being able to spot for yourself very well like with the AR-15. It’s not a big problem when shooting with a well-trained spotter, so they’re still viable in that regard. I enjoy the 130gr Berger VLD the most from the AR-10 due to how flat it shoots, how hard it hits, and how well it reaches past 1000yds. Case life for me in the .260 Rem is really short, so it requires a lot of brass prep only to lose the brass after 3-4 firings, which is not cool at over $1/piece.

This kind of steers me back into just keeping the Savage in .308 and shooting some of the newer high BC bullets from Nosler and Berger, since .308 brass tends to last much longer if you’re using Lake City, MEN, or Lapua. Honestly, my only use for the .308 at this point is to illustrate what I’m talking about to people coming through courses so they can see the sight picture between Grendel and .308, and hear the impacts of both on-TGT.
Even more good points! What about the new whiz-kid 6ARC? It’s tempting to get off this 6.5 Creed bandwagon early (Brownells will take the barrel back, and maybe the upper and hand guard as well). Everything seems simpler with the AR15-sized guns…
 
Even more good points! What about the new whiz-kid 6ARC? It’s tempting to get off this 6.5 Creed bandwagon early (Brownells will take the barrel back, and maybe the upper and hand guard as well). Everything seems simpler with the AR15-sized guns…
As soon as 6.5 Grendel brass started shipping in 2003-2004, there were a few guys who skipped straight into 6mm AR shooting 107s for nice target performance or 87gr for varmint work. Then Whitley did the AR Turbo with a 40˚ shoulder, which holds even more powder and burns more efficiently.

iu


When you shoot the same bullet weight through 6.5 Grendel and 6mm AR, 107gr as an example, they both feel almost recoilless. Tracking your sight picture is as easy as .223 Rem for me since the rifle just doesn’t move much at all. Shooting 95s-107s even in my lightweight Lilja Grendels is very pleasant. I haven’t shot anything lighter than a 20” heavy barrel 6mm AR though, which didn’t move. 6mm ARC has less case capacity because Hornady moved the shoulder back .030”, instead of forward like on the AR Turbo 40. Improved 40˚ cases require additional brass-forming operations so they aren’t really producible for big manufacturers in an efficient manner.

The advantage to the 6mm AR/AR Turbo 40 and ARC is that you’re spitting BCs in the low .5xx G1 region, whereas the 6.5mm 107gr SMK is .462 G1/.230 G7 per Litz. Sierra lists it lower at .420 G1, but if you put a 107gr SMK next to any of the Hornady 123gr bullets, you’ll see it has a big advantage in shaping and boat tail length.

6.5mm 123gr A-MAX Left, 107gr SMK Right
iu


Both Grendel and ARC will spit a 107gr out at about the same speed, so BC advantage goes to the 6mm. The problem I run into with any 6mm is that it’s harder to register impacts on steel once we start getting to 700yds, even with Dasher, and I’ve RO’d many matches were guys were shooting 6 Dasher, 6x47 Lapua, and .243 Win. Those cartridges are great for LR to connect on steel, but it’s just hard to hear it once we have wind in the 7-10mph range at around 700yds. It’s not as bad as 5.56, but similar lack of audible impact on the steel. 6.5mm, 7mm, and .30 cals all hit the steel harder from an audible perspective.

What everyone would love to have would be 195gr Berger 7mm EOL impact and BC, with .22 LR recoil and lack of sight picture disturbance. I also want Marilyn Monroe to be young and alive, a virgin not defiled by the mafia and every producer and director in Hollywood, or the Kennedy bros.

Right now, 6mm ARC has factory ammo support from Hornady and Black Hills.
6.5 Grendel had 94 factory loads prior to Wuhanflu ranging from Wolf steel case up to Federal Gold Medal Match.

I had new shooters making hits on 12-18” steel with cheap PPU 110gr FMJ 6.5G a few weekends ago and another guy made a 1st-round hit on a 12” steel plate at 760yds with his 12.5” Odin Works barreled Grendel with 123gr Hornady American Gunner BTHP. I regularly shoot my 12” out to 800yds with factory ammo every time I take it to that range complex. I work it from 150-800yds on various 12”-18” steel plates with ease, which I would have never believed until I did it myself. I have a bunch of 130gr Nosler RDFs I’m going to load up and find an acceptable plate-ringer combo hopefully. BC on that is .615 G1, .307 G7.
 
When I was younger and more over-confident after decades of experience with the AR-15, I still sent my AR-10 work to GA Precision and let them work their magic rather than trying to do it myself. That was in the late 2000s.

The more I look under the hood of the Savage MSR-10 design, it feels like someone copy-and-pasted one of my wishlists for a smaller frame AR-10 many years ago. I impulse-bought one during Wuhanflu in a 16” .308 just because that’s what was on the shelf.

Fluted barrel
Adjustable gas regulator on the block with mechanical advantage, not a tiny Allen wrench
True free-floated handguard that only attaches to the upper, no contact with the barrel nut
AR-10 sized bolt and extension
Dual ejectors
Hard chrome carrier
Triangular firing pin shaft for less pre-travel vibration (helps with precision)
Spring-loaded firing pin to prevent floating and pressure-induced firing pin rearward momentum (AR-10s without sprung FPs beat FP retaining pins to hell.)
Well-designed smaller frame receiver set with nice, tight finish and fit
2-stage trigger
A5/ArmaLite RET and carbine buffer

I’ve been thinking that a 13.7-14.5” barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor would be really nice in this little Savage, maybe from Proof. I then visualize what that experience would be through the sight picture and have to accept that sight picture disturbance where I can’t spot for myself will likely be the reality, unless I only shoot 107gr SMK with fast-burning powder.

This pushes me back into my current comfort zone with the seven 6.5 Grendels I have and the AR-10s continue to sit collecting dust. I still have my .260 Laser GAP built, but haven’t shot it in years now. That rifle is reliable too, extremely-flat shooting, very fun to throttle through multiple targets at distance.

I do a lot of positional shooting in my courses and I like to see my own impacts, so you start to see where 6.5 Grendel really sells itself for me, plus I don’t have to tinker with trying to get a larger frame gasser running. I went through a long AR-10 phase and have owned 5 of them, worked on and run through dozens more along the way. They’re just kind of big and clunky. I love the downrange performance of a 155gr-175gr .308 or 130-147gr 6.5mm impacting the steel, but want to see it for myself through the optic when shooting suppressed.

The case volume, reciprocating mass, and how these rifles behave just don’t support being able to spot for yourself very well like with the AR-15. It’s not a big problem when shooting with a well-trained spotter, so they’re still viable in that regard. I enjoy the 130gr Berger VLD the most from the AR-10 due to how flat it shoots, how hard it hits, and how well it reaches past 1000yds. Case life for me in the .260 Rem is really short, so it requires a lot of brass prep only to lose the brass after 3-4 firings, which is not cool at over $1/piece.

This kind of steers me back into just keeping the Savage in .308 and shooting some of the newer high BC bullets from Nosler and Berger, since .308 brass tends to last much longer if you’re using Lake City, MEN, or Lapua. Honestly, my only use for the .308 at this point is to illustrate what I’m talking about to people coming through courses so they can see the sight picture between Grendel and .308, and hear the impacts of both on-TGT.
Dude I've followed almost all of your posts on AR15 and on the hide comparing AR10s to the Grendel. You inspired me to build a Grendel in 2019 that has been awesome. How do you like shooting the MSR10? I'm contemplating picking one up in 6.5CR but I worry that I'll stop shooting the Grendel.
 
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@LRRPF52, Thank you for all your thoughtful insights. I always appreciate your wisdom.

For the OP and others , I wouldn't feel comfortable with the Faxon barrel... I don't have much experience with Faxon barrels, but I I also haven't read consistent reports about great precision groups either.

Personally, I would go with a few of the above mentioned barrels, the Criterion Hybrid, or the Wilson Tactical Hunter.
 
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Dude I've followed almost all of your posts on AR15 and on the hide comparing AR10s to the Grendel. You inspired me to build a Grendel in 2019 that has been awesome. How do you like shooting the MSR10? I'm contemplating picking one up in 6.5CR but I worry that I'll stop shooting the Grendel.
I still haven’t shot my MSR-10 16” .308 and I’ve had it for 3 years now I think. It was more of an impulse-buy, not that I needed another AR in my armory. I don’t even know if it runs, but the workmanship exceeds what I would expect from a factory rifle.

I have a .260 Rem LR-260 built by GAP with a beautiful Bartlein pipe that bug-holes with every bullet that I tried except the 140gr A-MAX (.75 5rd groups with that). It weighs 14lbs. If I’m in the prone with it, bipod and rear bag-supported, I can throttle it fast with TGT-to-TGT transitions at 400yds on 2 MOA targets, and have done so up at BoomerShoot in Idaho in front of the class. Those were explosive reactive targets, which makes it immensely-more enjoyable, especially when you feel the resonant shock through the ground into your chest as you watch the targets explode in the optic. That was with 130gr VLD doing 2820fps, which was pushing it for RLGS 22” .260 Rem. Recalling my sight picture, it still jumped off the target quite a bit.

If I put that rifle on the tripod or shoot kneeling supported, there is more sight picture disturbance that requires a spotter to give me feedback. Even with my 12” 6.5 Grendel, I don’t have that problem. I just watch my own rounds impact, which is really one of the main ingredients with the smaller cases that makes them so rewarding to shoot.

The lighter MSR-10s will have a lot more torque, recoil, and sight picture disturbance. In order to get a small frame AR-10 to handle with minimal sight picture disruption, I think you would need to go down to a smaller cartridge based off the PPC or 6mm BR and not push more than 100-135gr, with a much smaller propellant mass than any of the .308-based cases. Keep it under 55ksi with optimum gas port placement.

I would have preferred the MSR-10 to have been a 6.5CM, but I just grabbed what they had on the shelf. If I was trying to get a Creedmoor gasser to behave, I would shoot 105-107gr fairly fast, with a faster-burning powder to give them a punt, maybe even 123gr. I like the LR performance of the 6.5-08 class of cartridges though for that 900-1400yd range if I need that, so 130gr is money for me for that, and isn’t too hard on the gas system if set up right. 130gr Bergers and Normas fly really flat. There is a penalty with your sight picture though. 140-147gr is even worse with more trajectory arc, and maybe .1 mil advantage in the wind with some of them.

Creedmoor brass should last longer than .260 Rem since Creedmoor has the 30˚ shoulder, but I don’t expect long brass life from 6.5-08 gassers. Pressures are a lot higher than Grendel, and extraction can be pretty harsh. Everything is a trade-off.
 
Yeah, like @LRRPF52 said, 6mm ARC has basically existed for 20 years. Manufacturers just decided it was time to pretend it was new and cash in on it.
It seems the ARC was part of a Mil-driven development - and probably the geometry they could make run the most reliably - not what offered the very best performance.
 
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It seems the ARC was part of a Mil-driven development - and probably the geometry they could make run the most reliably - not what offered the very best performance.
What I found interesting was the DoD customers were in organizations who were used to running....."AR-10 type DMR/SASS rifles in 7.62 NATO" (The Hornady engineer explaining the history behind it paused to make sure he didn’t say “SR-25”, but didn’t say AR-10s.). 5.56 carbines work great in the house and out to the shorter distances, but they were used to augmenting teams with 7.62 NATO blasters for more distance outside of the house. 7.62 NATO brought with it the problem of limited mags on kit, heavier weight, problems with overpressure and maneuverability inside the house, and limited reach for its size and weight penalties at distance.

The end-users went through a series of exercises representing urban and other terrain they commonly encountered, with 12” to 18” 6.5 Grendel carbines over a fairly lengthy period of time to run them through their paces. After these exercises, each shooter was asked, “Is there any scenario where you would have preferred your 7.62 NATO carbine/rifle vs the 6.5 Grendels. They all said, “No, can’t think of any scenario where the 7.62 NATO would have been better."

Then Hornady said they could make it a little better by tweaking it necked-down to 6mm instead of sticking with 6.5mm. This is according to Hornady.

If Hornady had just gone with a cartridge that resembled 6mm AR, which already exists, it wouldn’t be theirs and there might be some legal claims made by Robert Whitley. There is also an argument for placing the shoulder-neck junction ideally in relation to the shank and boat tail, so you don’t have so much case intrusion, which is what they claim for moving the shoulder back .030”. Moving the shoulder back doesn’t help with feeding though due to the fulcrum position of the shoulders in the cartridge stack, though forward mass is less due to 6mm bullet weights.

Sounds like 6.5 Grendel was fine the way it was, but since it wasn’t invented there, they necked it down to 6mm, moved the shoulder back, and called it their own. There really isn’t anything wrong with the 6mm AR, as it has proven itself for at least 17 years in accuracy/precision, ease of loading, feeding, and being functional in the AR-15. That 6mm AR article first posted in 2006. 6.5 Grendel was introduced in 2003 with the initial lot of Lapua brass arriving late that year for AA.

From a reliability standpoint, 6.5 Grendel isn’t over-bored, so it behaves very well running the AR-15 gas system, basically duplicating 5.56 port dimensions at the same locations since there is more bore volume to correspond to the increased propellant mass, but with lower chamber pressure and using the same powders.
 
What I found interesting was the DoD customers were in organizations who were used to running....."AR-10 type DMR/SASS rifles in 7.62 NATO" (The Hornady engineer explaining the history behind it paused to make sure he didn’t say “SR-25”, but didn’t say AR-10s.). 5.56 carbines work great in the house and out to the shorter distances, but they were used to augmenting teams with 7.62 NATO blasters for more distance outside of the house. 7.62 NATO brought with it the problem of limited mags on kit, heavier weight, problems with overpressure and maneuverability inside the house, and limited reach for its size and weight penalties at distance.

The end-users went through a series of exercises representing urban and other terrain they commonly encountered, with 12” to 18” 6.5 Grendel carbines over a fairly lengthy period of time to run them through their paces. After these exercises, each shooter was asked, “Is there any scenario where you would have preferred your 7.62 NATO carbine/rifle vs the 6.5 Grendels. They all said, “No, can’t think of any scenario where the 7.62 NATO would have been better."

Then Hornady said they could make it a little better by tweaking it necked-down to 6mm instead of sticking with 6.5mm. This is according to Hornady.

If Hornady had just gone with a cartridge that resembled 6mm AR, which already exists, it wouldn’t be theirs and there might be some legal claims made by Robert Whitley. There is also an argument for placing the shoulder-neck junction ideally in relation to the shank and boat tail, so you don’t have so much case intrusion, which is what they claim for moving the shoulder back .030”. Moving the shoulder back doesn’t help with feeding though due to the fulcrum position of the shoulders in the cartridge stack, though forward mass is less due to 6mm bullet weights.

Sounds like 6.5 Grendel was fine the way it was, but since it wasn’t invented there, they necked it down to 6mm, moved the shoulder back, and called it their own. There really isn’t anything wrong with the 6mm AR, as it has proven itself for at least 17 years in accuracy/precision, ease of loading, feeding, and being functional in the AR-15. That 6mm AR article first posted in 2006. 6.5 Grendel was introduced in 2003 with the initial lot of Lapua brass arriving late that year for AA.

From a reliability standpoint, 6.5 Grendel isn’t over-bored, so it behaves very well running the AR-15 gas system, basically duplicating 5.56 port dimensions at the same locations since there is more bore volume to correspond to the increased propellant mass, but with lower chamber pressure and using the same powders.
I’m digging all of this. Back to my original post (where I shamelessly hijacked this thread) - I’m sending my Faxon back to Brownells and I’ve ordered a Criterion. In theory Criterion has sorted the feed geometry, so I’m eager to give it a try. If that fails, I’m parting the thing out and I’ll be shopping for Grendel / ARC bits ;)
 
Great (interim) success!! I put the Criterion 16” 6.5 Creed barrel in and it feeds just fine, even without letting the bolt slam (though the extractor didn’t grab until it a little bump). I’ve put a Brownells 3-18 MPO on there and done a crude bore-sight. Hopefully it’ll shoot!
 
Great (interim) success!! I put the Criterion 16” 6.5 Creed barrel in and it feeds just fine, even without letting the bolt slam (though the extractor didn’t grab until it a little bump). I’ve put a Brownells 3-18 MPO on there and done a crude bore-sight. Hopefully it’ll shoot!
If it has an O-ring around the extractor spring and insert, remove the O-ring. I hate those things. They were a band-aid for SOPMOD early heavy barrel M4A1s that had tight chambers, not something that should be applied to AR-15 or AR-10 bolts. It makes chambering more difficult due to unnecessary extractor tension, and is hard on the extractor lip.

The extractor should have a quality spring made to a certain spec, providing adequate and consistent extractor tension, but not too much, not too little, and lasts several thousand rounds before needing replacement.
 
It’s a Faxon Bolt and BCG (some sort of contract overrun deal - no forward assist teeth), and has both the ring and spring (I removed the extractor when I checked the headspace). I’ll remove the o-ring and give it a go.
 
Great (interim) success!! I put the Criterion 16” 6.5 Creed barrel in and it feeds just fine, even without letting the bolt slam (though the extractor didn’t grab until it a little bump). I’ve put a Brownells 3-18 MPO on there and done a crude bore-sight. Hopefully it’ll shoot!
What gas system length does it have and what is the port diameter?

What recoil/action spring and RET are you using?

Did you bed the barrel into the upper? I’ve taken Krieger barreled .308 uppers that wouldn’t shoot, bedded them, then started printing .6” 5rd groups with them out of the gate after the re-build. One particular rifle was shooting 1.7” with the same load prior to that. Once I replaced the gas block, gas tube with an ArmaLite tube (it had a standard rifle gas tube on it and was short-stroking), and bedded it, it became a laser.

Especially for a Creedmoor or .260 Rem, I would spring it with a stiff action spring using an A5 RET.

Reliability/Accuracy Formula for a large frame AR-10-ish gasser in 6.5CM or .260 Rem:

1. Start out with the understanding you will only be running a certain projectile weight range reliably. For example, I wouldn’t expect to be able to shoot 107gr and 147gr without tuning to each. 123gr-130gr is a better projectile weight range to settle into for the 6.5-08 type cases in a gasser. 140-147gr makes it harder to get it reliable and not trash your brass, while enjoying the benefits of that weight class at the speeds they need. 123gr-130gr are much easier to get fast and still have some brass life. I’ve seen exceptions, but this is generally what you will see.

2. Only buy quality parts for the critical core pressure-containment (barrel/bolt), operating system, gas system, fire control, LPK, recoil spring and buffer. Dudes focus so much on furniture and coating while running $200 barrels with mass-produced chambers, outsourced BCGs with small parts failing, and band-aids trying to address early issues that pop up out of the gate. The more parts that come from the same reputable manufacturer, the better, especially pressure containment, gas system, BCG, recoil/buffer, and receivers.

3. The components need to be compatible from a mechanical engineering and functioning standpoint, not just fit together statically. With large frames and all the variations, there are too many places for things to go wrong when you Frankenbuild them. See #2. Two of the main areas we see are a. magazines not feeding or engaging LRBHO reliably due to datum line deviations, and b. the lower bolt carrier rails smashing into the RET boss threads.

4. The upper and lower really should come from the same manufacturer, or be compatible between makers (SR-25/LaRue/LMT).

5. The barrel extension and bolt really need to be made by people who are on the same sheet of music, otherwise you will see bolt lugs shaving the extension teeth, galling, and just not interfacing with the extension properly.

6. The BCG needs to be efficient with the tri-bore dimensions in how they articulate between the carrier and the bolt body, otherwise you will have gas leakage and an inefficient system. The low and mid manufacturers deal with this by just opening up the gas port, which gasses the system even harder, and thereby causes early unlocking, mangled brass, and beats the gun up. This is hard to measure because nobody but those companies who have made their own armorer’s gauges are working off a standard. Where would you get AR-10 armorer’s gauges for the BCG, for example?

7. The chamber needs to be made for gas gun reliability and accuracy, not too tight along the case body or neck, but not too loose. Every time I sent work to GAP, they custom-reamed for me for the bullet I told them I was shooting.

8. The barrel needs to be turned, profiled, threaded, extension installed, crowned, ported, and chambered by someone that knows what they are doing and is able to reliably control concentricity and shoulder squareness for their threads and specific profile locations. They need to use a quality extension as well that is square and true with good threads, and again, proper dimensions to allow bolt articulation and lock-up. Heat treating needs to be dialed-in. I like BAT Machine extensions. There are top-tier barrel makers who have struggled with the profiling, finish machining, extension installation, concentric chambering, threading, and final operations normally done by a rifle-builder. You have to let each shop specialize in their core area of expertise, and leave the other operations to people that do those consistently well as their contribution to the manufacturing chain. GAP doesn’t make barrels, for example, but they sure know how to profile, thread, ream, etc.

9. I like blended and de-edged barrel extensions and uppers with matching surfaces between the upper receiver and feed ramps. This requires custom work to get them right. The last thing I want is the meplat getting shaved as it rides up the feed ramps. 6.5CM and .260 Rem don’t feed the same as .308 since the projectile diameters and ogive profiles are much more sleek, so it isn’t safe to assume that everything is just a barrel-swap plug-and-play. That said, my .260 Rem has never had a FTFeed, but I have almost exclusively used Gen I 7.62 NATO PMAGs that were discontinued. The lip thickness and feed angle from the mags can affect feeding. Lancers are usually a default answer if you’re having magazine feeding problems since they have nice, thin steel lips that locate the cartridge in-presentation higher than any polymer magazine. The design that has the most problems with this is the DPMS GII, since it has a smaller bolt. I wouldn’t be surprised to see similar issues with the POF Revolution, Rogue, and Ruger SFAR, since they use AR-15 sized bolts. The 2 bottom bolt lugs don’t extend down very far, so the datum lines for magazine height location have to be controlled well. Receiver slop between upper and lower can affect this too.

10. The gas system needs to start with the correct port for the projectile weight and propellant mass/burn rate you are settled into. It also needs to be located appropriately. The shorter, lighter bullets being driven by faster-burning powders can be a little closer to the chamber than the larger, heavier bullets being pushed by slower-burning powders.

Ex: 107gr with faster powder works fine with MLGS-SRLGS with 4-6” of plug dwell past the port (fore end), but 140-147gr do better with smaller gas ports and ELGS since bore volume is so small compared to .308 Win. If you want a shorter barrel, the port really needs to be small if you plan to run 140-147gr 6.5mm, especially if you suppress. I have found 123gr-130gr to work reasonably well in .260 Rem with Standard RLGS 22”, but I don’t know what port diameter GAP used. When I try to approach book max values with 140-142gr, things started getting weird with the cyclic rate, even with the buffer impacting the back inside of the RET so hard that it felt like an M203. If I tried pushing to over 2700fps with a 140gr in .260 Rem 22”, it just didn’t feel right. I could get the velocity, but brass was trashed and system behavior felt way outside of the happy window.

11. Gas block and tube need to be interference-fit, sealed, bedded, or compression-fit so there aren’t any leaks or detrimental vibration effects for precision. ArmaLite had a really slick system for their SASS rifle entry, but I haven’t seen it since. KAC’s gas system is really cool as well. I have had nothing but trouble with tiny set screw adjustable blocks. I wish Bootleg made an adjustable AR-10 carrier like they do for the AR-15. There are multiple gas tube lengths just for “RLGS” on the large frame guns. It used to be just ArmaLite (longer) and DPMS (standard AR-15 RLGS length), but has evolved. There is also ELGS of varying +_” that does well for 22”-26” 6.5-08 class of cartridges.

12. Barrel extension needs to be either press-fit, thermo-fit, or bedded into the extension tunnel in the upper if you want precision. Upper receiver face needs to be square and true, which can be off from anodizing when it dries. Extension torque is typically higher on the AR-10 at 65-80ft-lbs, but this needs to balance out with the upper receiver mass if you’re looking for optimum resonant behavior between the two components. If they are out of whack, it can show up in your groups. Scope mount and scope mass will play into this too.

13. We’re seeing a lot of cheap parts nitrided to camouflage their low quality being assembled into large frame BCGs, and they will break on you with a round count. See T.REX Arms video on the Aero .308 they tried to run for thousands of rounds. The firing pin broke, extractor pin broke, bolt catch threaded pin walked out multiple times, etc. It’s pretty sad when I look back and see DPMS BCGs as higher quality than a lot of these nitrided DIY parts that are being sold to consumers nowadays. If all you’re doing is assembling for online photos, you’ll never know, but if you actually shoot, you’ll see stuff start failing with a lot of the DIY guns.

14. I really prefer a sprung firing pin system like ArmaLite, Hk, and Savage use in their AR-10s. The floating firing pin from the DPMS design really takes a beating in .260 Rem and 6.5CM. Accelerated firing pin blowback is a thing, and I have burned through multiple firing pin retaining pins that were irreparably bent in the .260 Rem. The Savage MSR-10 firing pin seems to be the best one I have seen yet, since it’s sprung and uses the Alexander Arms triangular cross section approach to minimize any firing pin vibration in the channel when looking at timing/precision shooting. Savage MSR-10 is of course a medium-small frame AR-10, but uses standard size SR-25/AR-10 bolts in a smaller carrier similar to the Colt 901, with a forged tower base for the key instead of a carrier key. Especially if you plan to run 140-147gr or 130gr fast in a 6.5-08 cartridge, your firing pin is going to be thrust back with extreme force.

The firing pin aperture in the bolt should be smaller for this, with a small tip firing pin. These are commonly called “High Pressure Bolts”, even though it has more to do with the smaller bore volume and delayed pressure accumulation from 6.5mm and 6mm pushing long-for-caliber plugs down the pipe, with longer pressure curves. This causes added stress on the primer, which shoves the firing pin back on floating firing pin designs. For the AR-10 series, I really think a sprung pin is the way to go and should really be a standard. ArmaLite Inc. really got it right with their approach to this problem, and none of the DIY kits I’m aware of have this option.

15. Bolt catches break on large frames, especially when you run efficient suppressors, which increase your cyclic rate. Even the top names have suffered this problem, namely ArmaLite and KAC. The huge bolt carrier mass in the large frame guns really slams into the bolt catch on LRHO with far more force than any AR-15, and AR-10 action springs are generally much stiffer as well. This is why I like the Mid-Small frame as seen in the MSR-10. If you try to solve it with stronger metallurgy in the bolt catch, it will peen the bottom bolt lugs and deform the bolt, causing it to not articulate through the barrel extension.

16. For carbines, the ArmaLite mid-length (A5) RET is the way to go with a stiff action spring. Depending on what your barrel mass is and what loads you shoot, a standard AR-15 carbine buffer will work with an optimum set-up gas system that cycles inside the happy window. Many try to rate-reduce with extreme heavy buffers, but I’m not so convinced this is the way to approach this, and it’s usually on guns with too large of gas ports designed to pressure-up inefficient BCGs to get them to cycle. Multiple band-aids have been layered over the scab in those guns in my opinion, but I’m open to being proved otherwise. Rifles are easier to get to run with a Rifle RET and shorter AR-10 rifle buffer with stiff spring. The original Dutch ArmaLite AR-10s run better with a fatter BCG, fatter RET, and fatter action spring for some reason. Trey from KAC stated this and that they have learned that the SR-25 dual-OD BCG designed to work with AR-15 back-end RETs and furniture was a compromise to get rifles built with as many AR-15 parts as possible due to cost barriers for a new AR-10 in the late 1980s.

If you ever get a chance to shoot an original Dutch ArmaLite AR-10, it is a very pleasant and different experience. They are light and very well-balanced too. I love those rifles.

17. I have just used Geissele triggers and been quite happy. Before Geissele, I tried RRA 2-stage, which hung-up the BCG in the rear position until you let go of the trigger. Today, I would use Geissele, LaRue, or Triggertech I think. The factory 2-stage trigger in the Savage MSR-10 feels like an SSA or SSA-E to me.

18. Upper receivers and handguard combos that truly free-float the barrel with no contact between handguard and barrel nut can only help with precision. LaRue, Mega, Seekins, and Savage use that approach.
 
I’ve got a Criterion 16” barrel in an Aero M5 upper and lower. I’ve got a Superlative arms adjustable gas block and 1AR15 rifle-length gas tube, set back off the barrel shoulder (or forget how much). I’ve got a rifle buffer and extension tube - I assume that’ll work OK with the gas block. I’ve put in a 2-stage, 4 lb CMC trigger that I like. I’ve bought a wide sample of ammo to see what it likes best, including some cheapo stuff to sort the functioning out and work on a crude zero. I’m new at this precision game - how do you bed a barrel into a receiver with a gas gun?
 
I’ve got a Criterion 16” barrel in an Aero M5 upper and lower. I’ve got a Superlative arms adjustable gas block and 1AR15 rifle-length gas tube, set back off the barrel shoulder (or forget how much). I’ve got a rifle buffer and extension tube - I assume that’ll work OK with the gas block. I’ve put in a 2-stage, 4 lb CMC trigger that I like. I’ve bought a wide sample of ammo to see what it likes best, including some cheapo stuff to sort the functioning out and work on a crude zero. I’m new at this precision game - how do you bed a barrel into a receiver with a gas gun?
From here... https://criterionbarrels.com/media/accurizing-the-ar-15-video-series/?v=7516fd43adaa

At about 47 seconds.. Criterion uses Loctite. And lots people have used metal shims.
 
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I'm looking to build a lightweight 6.5 Creedmoor in an 18 inch barrel maximum size for a lightweight thermal hunting rig. After doing some research, there's not a lot out there. Seems like only thing I can find in stock is a Faxon, Rainier arms ultramatch mod 2 or a carbon fiber BSF. Was actually even considering the Faxon in a 16 inch. Gun is going to be used as a thermal hunting gun so I'd say the maximum distance is 400 yards and even that is unlikely. Just seems like my options are very limited. The Faxon reviews seemed to be mixed, not a lot on the Rainier and not a big fan of the BSF carbon fiber. I purchased a 6 mm Creedmoor BSF barrel and it gave me nothing but problems. Not really trying to do it on a budget either. If Proof had an 18 inch, I wouldn't even consider buying something else.

Anyone have any suggestions or can offer up some advice? I'll be hand loading for it and looking for something that just shoots. Don't know much about some of the barrel builder out there but I really prefer not to wait 6 months to a year for a barrel. Would even consider something used if it's a proven shooter.
I did a 3 gun lightweight build of an 18 inch Gunner profile Faxon match series that was .7 MOA all day long even with xm193. Got a superlative adjustable gas block, but even so, seems the gas port is a good size, very flat shooting. Ideal build for a skinny barrel.