FBI Sniper Rifles

Toftwo

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Anyone have any info on the Winchester Model 70's and Remington 700 configurations that the FBI built for their snipers? I have the Vanderpool book and was looking for more info or pics. I'm also interested in the FN guns.
Thanks!
 

Skunk

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The Win 70's could be pre-War all the way to early 80's vintage. Long or short action, controlled or push feed. Many were originally sporter .30-06 rifles converted to .308 when built into sniper rifles. Douglas #6, 12 twist, carbon steel barrels. McMillan Hunter stocks in black, blue and grey camo. Matte blued.

The Remington's were all short action, to the best of my observation, and ranged from B through D prefix serials. Same barrels and stocks as the Win 70's.

The FN guns really aren't worth discussion. They competed alongside the HS Precision, and were awarded contract in addition to the HS. However, the only FN guns the FBI had/has are the rifles submitted for the contract selection. After contract award, none were ever purchased or deployed into the field for operational use. HS Precision has been the standard SWAT sniper rifle since about 1999-2000.
 

njohn890

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They had some variations of Remingtons built back in the 80’s and 90’s that can be seen on some vintage YouTube videos on the HRT that one can find. If that’s the era you and looking at...

Some were straight up M40A1 copies, and used Unertl 10x scopes, later versions had the same barreled action in a McM A2 stock. Given the proximity to the MTU/PWS at Quantico it’s probably reasonable they went to them for guidance in the early days of building their own rifles?

here are some screenshots from a dated FBI video on YouTube



698E6953-C7E1-4325-9299-EDEE3BC31A7A.png0374C9F2-5B4E-4991-A249-997E61CCA48B.pngE614090B-1312-4AE1-82B2-D87EC0C38669.png
 
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Skunk

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Keep in mind there is, and always has been, a difference between HRT and SWAT and their respective gear/weapons. If HRT rifles are part of the discussion, there are many facets and iterations.
 

njohn890

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Keep in mind there is, and always has been, a difference between HRT and SWAT and their respective gear/weapons. If HRT rifles are part of the discussion, there are many facets and iterations.
Thanks for the heads up, I didn’t know FBI had 2 levels but it makes sense now that you pointed it out. I just presumed that HRT was their only level of specialized response but I guess every field office must have an intermediate level of response as well.
 

Toftwo

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Keep in mind there is, and always has been, a difference between HRT and SWAT and their respective gear/weapons. If HRT rifles are part of the discussion, there are many facets and iterations.
Interestingly I called McMillian to see what information they had as far as stocks, inlets and bottom metal, they mentioned other actions. It seems that once HRT moves on to another rifle, the field office SWAT Teams get the hand me downs.
 

Toftwo

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The Win 70's could be pre-War all the way to early 80's vintage. Long or short action, controlled or push feed. Many were originally sporter .30-06 rifles converted to .308 when built into sniper rifles. Douglas #6, 12 twist, carbon steel barrels. McMillan Hunter stocks in black, blue and grey camo. Matte blued.

The Remington's were all short action, to the best of my observation, and ranged from B through D prefix serials. Same barrels and stocks as the Win 70's.

The FN guns really aren't worth discussion. They competed alongside the HS Precision, and were awarded contract in addition to the HS. However, the only FN guns the FBI had/has are the rifles submitted for the contract selection. After contract award, none were ever purchased or deployed into the field for operational use. HS Precision has been the standard SWAT sniper rifle since about 1999-2000.
Do you think FN was awarded the contract in case HS couldn't keep up with production, the FN was a suitable substatute?
 

Skunk

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HRT weapons in a nearly constant state of evolution. They move from one thing to another but those weapons don't go to the field SWAT. HRT only maintains about 30 sniper rifles. Field SWAT has 400+.

Not sure why the dual contract was a thing.
 

j-huskey

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The guy building the m70 and early 700's was Raymond G. Sweet, a Marine Corp retired builder who formerly built m40's for USMC...
I have the spec sheet for model 70's he sent me around 91. Somewhere. Probably can find it and post it, some time next few days.
Ray was good people.
 

j-huskey

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HRT weapons in a nearly constant state of evolution. They move from one thing to another but those weapons don't go to the field SWAT. HRT only maintains about 30 sniper rifles. Field SWAT has 400+.

Not sure why the dual contract was a thing.
Government stupidity.... low bid.
HRT budget vs local team budget.
H.S.P. was insanely priced then and the hiring of Horiouchi by them .... ahem....
And at the time there were some purchase violations and procurement fraud with S&W over model 66 revolvers floating in the background, several deep background things got at least 4 people transferred to other positions, one of which was involved in the HS/FN time frame.
The whistle blower was stationed on Ft. Benning in building 4 at the time, and involved in a peripheral investigation I was working then. I learned more about .gov stupid red tape than I ever want to know then.
The whistleblower got a medical retirement, a huge settlement, and lived in fear of his life thereafter. And was a nightmare in mine. There is/was a sealed file in my old department that probably has been burned by now.
Ahhh the drama then.
 
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njohn890

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Awesome photo, nice rig. Looking closer at the screen captures I posted wondering if that first rifle being held is actually a Model 70?

Thanks again there’s not much data out there on these early rifles
 

Xrslug

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HRT weapons in a nearly constant state of evolution. They move from one thing to another but those weapons don't go to the field SWAT. HRT only maintains about 30 sniper rifles. Field SWAT has 400+.

Not sure why the dual contract was a thing.
Can you give more info specifically on the HRT rifles and their evolution? I’ve never understood for example where the GAP “FBI” rifle fits into all of this. Requested by HRT?
 

Skunk

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It’s a steel picatinney rail, and the scope/rings are transplants from one of the HS rifles. The rings are by HS Precision.
 

Toftwo

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The guy building the m70 and early 700's was Raymond G. Sweet, a Marine Corp retired builder who formerly built m40's for USMC...
I have the spec sheet for model 70's he sent me around 91. Somewhere. Probably can find it and post it, some time next few days.
Ray was good people.
That would be awesome!
 
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Skunk

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Factory metal.

Only the scope and rings are from a HS. No idea what manufacturer made the rail.

HS rifles use Rem700 rails.
 

j-huskey

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The HS and M70 scope mount holes lined up? How hard are those stocks to come by?
Stocks are McMillan General Purpose heavy fill. How long u want for McMillan to make you one and they arent cheap.
 

j-huskey

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The guy building the m70 and early 700's was Raymond G. Sweet, a Marine Corp retired builder who formerly built m40's for USMC...
I have the spec sheet for model 70's he sent me around 91. Somewhere. Probably can find it and post it, some time next few days.
Ray was good people.
20200609_193336.jpg
20200609_193659.jpg
20200609_194129.jpg
20200609_193745.jpg
20200609_193811.jpg

Read and enjoy.

@Skunk
@Toftwo
 
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sirhrmechanic

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Now, why use a .30-06 Long Action when they're chambered for .308 WIN? Same reason as the US Army M24 sniper rifles being built on long actions, so they could be changed to a longer, more powerful cartridge (i.e., the 300 WinMag) one day?

Edit: Stupid me, I thought Winchester had a short version of their receiver too but nope. That explains it. xD
 
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j-huskey

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This place continues to amaze me in the utter goldmine of information it produces. Fascinating!

Cheers, Sirhr
As you well know from your previous LE career, it pays to make the right friends in the right places.
The right approach, hat in hand, courteous, eager to learn, and knowing when to be silent, opened a f'ton of doors for me when I started in this long 8 second ride.
Ray Sweet was a RVN Marine, like a certain Gunny, and he had an always open door for a whelp who needed help. All you had to do was ask nice, and be willing to work real hard when they said "Lamps lit, enter".
We are so diminished with their passing.

And thank God, the bear pit mentality wasnt running loose then, those guys would smoke the errant ass real hard.
Bear pit mentality has run a lot of very knowledgeable people from the hide.

Finding this posting today, made my day, reminded me of the good guys. Great memories.

You got several to share... 🤗
 

j-huskey

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what color scheme is that called?
Not knowing any better back in the day when I ordered our stocks, I asked for "that FBI blue camo color" and they knew.
The McMillan site is down and I cant give you the correct answer you request.
 

Son of Dorn

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Not knowing any better back in the day when I ordered our stocks, I asked for "that FBI blue camo color" and they knew.
The McMillan site is down and I cant give you the correct answer you request.
@Toftwo McMillan lists it simply as "Urban Camo" in the color/camo options page:
1591752547083.png

And on their A2 stock:
1591752851538.png
 
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j-huskey

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Now, why use a .30-06 Long Action when they're chambered for .308 WIN? Same reason as the US Army M24 sniper rifles being built on long actions, so they could be changed to a longer, more powerful cartridge (i.e., the 300 WinMag) one day?

Edit: Stupid me, I thought Winchester had a short version of their receiver too but nope. That explains it. xD
Back then the pre-64 had one length with different mag boxes and bolt stops for short cartridges.

The post 64 was the same and you see the short box in @Skunk 's picture. Winchester had not produced a short action 'at that time' and for whatever reason the nomenclature was long action receiver, no real clue why.

However, reading the other description of the HRT rifle, and what we know of the first M40's, Rimingtun called it the short action. Perhaps it was to keep confusion down btw Winchester and Rimingtun actions, cant answer absolutely definitively.

I do know there was no intent to do magnums like the M24 "'then'"...
All training was on absolute positive facial ID and all the issued and used glass at the time wasnt worth a shit past 200, and training std was 200 yards and in for non HRT teams and local police Ray trained.
HRT had to pass USMC Sniper School then with the 308 just like the marines.
The only people with magnums, then, were secret service, and they were running a 7mm Rem Mag custom built on a match reamer designed by another Ray, Ray Steele.
Benning and AMU were playing with the 7 until Bill Davis won the leech or Wimbledon with a 300wm, and Gunny H won with a 300wm about the same time b4 he deployed.
The magnum ammo back then was pretty suck and a lot of it was hand loaded by AMU.
The 168gr Fed Gold medal match that FB1 went to was initially developed for 300 meter olympic shooting.
Then.... FB1 had Winchester 748 powder in theirs, USMC had 4895, and Army had 4064, all made by Fed and using the 168 Sierra. That loading has been around a long time, thanks much in part to a pretty small group of intertwined people.

So much has changed.....
 
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Son of Dorn

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Back then the pre-64 had one length with different mag boxes and bolt stops for short cartridges.

The post 64 was the same and you see the short box in @Skunk 's picture. Winchester had not produced a short action 'at that time' and for whatever reason the nomenclature was long action receiver, no real clue why.

However, reading the other description of the HRT rifle, and what we know of the first M40's, Rimingtun called it the short action. Perhaps it was to keep confusion down btw Winchester and Rimingtun actions, cant answer absolutely definitively.

I do know there was no intent to do magnums like the M24 "'then'"...
All training was on absolute positive facial ID and all the issued and used glass at the time wasnt worth a shit past 200, and training std was 200 yards and in for non HRT teams and local police Ray trained.
HRT had to pass USMC Sniper School then with the 308 just like the marines.
The only people with magnums, then, were secret service, and they were running a 7mm Rem Mag custom built on a match reamer designed by another Ray, Ray Steele.

So much has changed.....
Yeah I got myself confused with the Remington short action and then went a-looking at a Pre-64 vendor online and saw how Winchester's "short" action was just a standard action with some special doohickey in them to allow shorter cartridges to be used better and change the bolt throw just enough that you wouldn't have a mechanical issue. So I'm not sure why they'd call it a "long action" either unless, as you suggest, to keep it from being confused with a Remington.
 

Skunk

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Bear pit mentality has run a lot of very knowledgeable people from the hide.
Unfortunate Truth!

There were some short M70's as well! Here's one I'm working on. The stock had a short inlet and it took me awhile to find out what the original serial was so I could hunt for an action with similar serial number.image.jpeg
 
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Toftwo

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So the original pre64 guns were 30-06? Then they re-chambered them to 308. Were any post 64 rifles 06?
 

j-huskey

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Unfortunate Truth!

There were some short M70's as well! Here's one I'm working on. The stock had a short inlet and it took me awhile to find out what the or initial serial was so I could hunt for an action with similar serial number.View attachment 7347730
I've seen and shot one of those. A lot.

They pulled all the 70's around 96ish or so and reissued the built 700's. This was because Winchester to USRAC, to whatever couldnt provide any new or quality replacement parts. Rimingtun could. That was an unhappy day for many of my buds.

Some of this is best of my failing memory.
 
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Skunk

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So the original pre64 guns were 30-06? Then they re-chambered them to 308. Were any post 64 rifles 06?
Yes, the first gun I posted a photo of was purchased as a '06 and changed to 308 when built into a sniper rifle.
 

j-huskey

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So the original pre64 guns were 30-06? Then they re-chambered them to 308. Were any post 64 rifles 06?
I dont remember them ever having any in service in 3006 caliber.

The prison systems did though.

Ray and the other armorers built them all to M40 (308) spec no matter the action.

All this was done at Quantico side by side, FB1 and USMC, building the rifles.
 

Skunk

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J-Huskey, you're right. As far as I know, none of the guns were ever employed as '06's, only purchased as such.

The bottom metal on my 70 stock is factory stuff, too. It's a steel floor plate and aluminum trigger guard.
 

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Awesome info guys, I appreciate it! Now the parts hunt is on!