Yes. See @Skunk 's reply. Some were all steel, some aluminum trigger guard and steel floor plate. Depended on year obtained.
Or what Ray had in spare parts, he preferred the pre-64 steel and stuck a few in from time to time.
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Yes. See @Skunk 's reply. Some were all steel, some aluminum trigger guard and steel floor plate. Depended on year obtained.
Or what Ray had in spare parts, he preferred the pre-64 steel and stuck a few in from time to time.
Lol he was a 2112, probably grabbed what was on his bench or within arms reach!
Cool, I’m about to get clone nerdy, any idea what SN prefix would be legit in the A2 stock?
I had one that was a D-somethin'erother...
All of the 70's I saw had chrome moly XX AG premium barrels that were blued. Skunk may have seen something different.
I never saw one with a canjar. Canjar WAS a factory option on the Winchester Palma rifles and I do have one of those that came with a canjar.
Were the Hart’s on HRT’s model 70 ‘s Or did just the 700’s?
HRT had 700s. Built to m40 spec.
Not 70's, go back to the pics I posted directly from Ray.
Written specs HRT 700 with the 10x unertl same as USMC. Good luck finding one of those affordable today.
I’ll have to watch the CMP auctions for the Unertl, affordable being the key word!
Damn, I can live with a 95% correct rifle, lol
This is awesome thanks for all the details on these otherwise overlooked setups. Maybe it’s my age but I find the first generation 80’s and 90’s pre internet guns hard to find info on. Thanks for sharing this wealth of information about these rigs And your experiences with them.
Skunk by the way what model Kahles scope is that?
NRA American Rifleman had an interesting article regarding the sniper rifles of the FBI. Can't recall specific issue. If you are a NRA member, visit their site.
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Correct me if I am wrong, however, wasn't FN Herstal awarded the contract because nobody else could maintain the 1/2 MOA accuracy standard after 10K rounds, but FN could because of the barrel development of the 240 Bravo?
And, full disclosure, my favorite bolt action rifle - of all time - is an FN SPR that was modified by CDI. Everyone who has shot it wants me to leave it to them in my will. It's more accurate than I am and gives me great velocity with minimal cleaning needed. I'll never get rid of it.
And, full disclosure, my favorite bolt action rifle - of all time - is an FN SPR that was modified by CDI. Everyone who has shot it wants me to leave it to them in my will. It's more accurate than I am and gives me great velocity with minimal cleaning needed. I'll never get rid of it.
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I don't know exactly what the deal with the dual contract was. @j-huskey offered a reasonable explanation earlier in the thread. All I know is the only FN rifles the FBI has/had were the ones sent for the bid. None ever made it to a SWAT team; it's been the HS since award of the contract.
Skunk, years ago I had a Unertl that was supposed to be from the FBI. It was a real 10x Unertl but I could not find any history on it. Pre-internet. I have a few H-S Stocks that are stamped FBI. Mike
The Unertl is a cool, old scope for sure. The FBI model is probably about the rarest.
I've got a couple HS barrels....
I've got a couple HS barrels....
Both my current contacts are indisposed right now to verify what I hazily remember on the FN thing. I will run them down though.
The early FN's were pretty good. The next run sucked big ones. The two that were in the Sheriffs office went through the historically best Armorer the AMU ever had, Gerald "Old Hook" Boutin, the recognized "Father of the M21", and you can find his picture in a couple of Peter Senichs books.
Hook couldnt get those two pieces of shit to shoot no matter what he tried.
Now FN rifles are like where in sales ??
What is not hazy, is that around that time, FN, got the M16 contract away from Colt because it got the 249, 240B squad automatic weapon contract. And was supposed to be Gods gift to firearms. The 249 isnt that great for longevity for some unknown reason....
And the FN M16's were the abortion that lived. All the surplus FN M16 parts were sold in the low dollar MOD1 kits if any of you remember those pieces of shit kits.
Colt got the M16 contract back damn quick, and somewhere in there, the FBI FN rifles fall into the abyss @Skunk mentions.
I will try to contact my current contacts and see if either of them can restore my failing memory.
The one thing I absolutely hated about the HS Precision rifles is the McCann rails that wouldn't stay anchored with 6-48 screws... put night vision on front and before long the rail came loose.
And field agents with a loose rail were not allowed to tighten it back up, had to go back to depot.... talk about suck...
Ray Sweet issued a torque wrench with his built rifles and the agents were taught to maintain their own rifle until the scheduled PM was to be done by the Quantico shop. No fucking way with HSP.
One time the president came to the local college and Ft. Benning couldn't clear a range for the guys to zero locally, so, plan B was my range the defense contractors from Building 4 were using testing new toys on...
Every one of the HSP rifles had loose rails, couldn't hold zero... no time to send back to depot and get replacement rifles in... well shit... right? Prez is on the ground tomorrow....
Little policy violation there, the fucking screws and screw holes were still oily from when HS sent them. So, degrease the holes and screws, and blue loctite, and prez was covered.
Depot DID NOT like the blue loctite, but, 8-40 screws were added in the next batch.
There was some back door bullshit going on then in procurement. The NRA article bumped my memory, in my previous post, I remembered the Prison System m70's in 3006.
Some of the pre64's that went into FBI service with the hunting scopes came out of USMC Special Services hunting rifles that at one time were checked out by servicemen who could hunt on bases or near post, and were some of the same Special Services rifles Jim Land seized for the early USMC Sniper program, Gunny Hathcocks first tour sniper rifle was one of those. (Later in life USSS fielded a Camp Perry competition team and you could find them hanging with the old mil crew mentioned here.)
The FBI got them, & the O3A4's from uncle Sam's misguided...
The few M21's the FBI got were "Old Hook" built guns.
Hook, Ray, Gunny, were all competitive shooters in inter service and Camp Perry competition and were the backbone of the mil sniper programs. Lones Wigger was Hooks commander in one of his 9th Infantry Division Sniper School tours.
That Army and Marine Sniper legends helping the FBI get their shit squared away was not unusual at all.
And finally, I remembered seeing the piece of shit 760 pumps, after reading the NRA article. A few were floating around in field agents cars along with the original 3 prong flash hider m16's, I can remember the barrels were rusted up just like the ones did in Vietnam. And the 70's field agents werent gun people. RVN Vet municipal police were cleaning their guns for them.
Our local agents scrounged military ball in 308 and 556 from local guard units and off Ft. Benning and other bases.
Our pd department guard guys would survey that ammo and trade for something field agents had a f'ton of, 38 caliber 148 gr. match wadcutters, that was for the pd qual round, which was soooo much better than department reloads...
The early FBI rifle people were like red headed step children getting all kinds of hand me downs, until Ray Sweet and the FBI Armorer built the M40 clones.
The FBI story sounds so much like what Jim Land and Gunny went through setting up the USMC sniper program that it's not funny. And that story is well documented.
J. Asshole Edgar H would not allow anything out that damaged the 'IMAGE' he wanted people to see of the FBI, the egotistical bastard that he was.... just sayin. So much FBI history is lost today because once you fell out of favor with him, your records disappeared.
Collecting registered 357 magnum FBI pistols and trying to trace their trails has taught a few of us that disappearing act thing.
You guys wanting background need to print off the NRA article and put that in your folders.... it's a damn good historical thing to keep.
In the NRA article, one picture is credited to "Boone", who was a FBI ballistician who, you might have guessed, USED TO BE A HIDE MEMBER, until the bullshitters got on his nerve one too many times. He lives two hours from my house now...
Will he share FN info, will he not.... hmmm.
And this older person mutters on...
The early FN's were pretty good. The next run sucked big ones. The two that were in the Sheriffs office went through the historically best Armorer the AMU ever had, Gerald "Old Hook" Boutin, the recognized "Father of the M21", and you can find his picture in a couple of Peter Senichs books.
Hook couldnt get those two pieces of shit to shoot no matter what he tried.
Now FN rifles are like where in sales ??
What is not hazy, is that around that time, FN, got the M16 contract away from Colt because it got the 249, 240B squad automatic weapon contract. And was supposed to be Gods gift to firearms. The 249 isnt that great for longevity for some unknown reason....
And the FN M16's were the abortion that lived. All the surplus FN M16 parts were sold in the low dollar MOD1 kits if any of you remember those pieces of shit kits.
Colt got the M16 contract back damn quick, and somewhere in there, the FBI FN rifles fall into the abyss @Skunk mentions.
I will try to contact my current contacts and see if either of them can restore my failing memory.
The one thing I absolutely hated about the HS Precision rifles is the McCann rails that wouldn't stay anchored with 6-48 screws... put night vision on front and before long the rail came loose.
And field agents with a loose rail were not allowed to tighten it back up, had to go back to depot.... talk about suck...
Ray Sweet issued a torque wrench with his built rifles and the agents were taught to maintain their own rifle until the scheduled PM was to be done by the Quantico shop. No fucking way with HSP.
One time the president came to the local college and Ft. Benning couldn't clear a range for the guys to zero locally, so, plan B was my range the defense contractors from Building 4 were using testing new toys on...
Every one of the HSP rifles had loose rails, couldn't hold zero... no time to send back to depot and get replacement rifles in... well shit... right? Prez is on the ground tomorrow....
Little policy violation there, the fucking screws and screw holes were still oily from when HS sent them. So, degrease the holes and screws, and blue loctite, and prez was covered.
Depot DID NOT like the blue loctite, but, 8-40 screws were added in the next batch.
There was some back door bullshit going on then in procurement. The NRA article bumped my memory, in my previous post, I remembered the Prison System m70's in 3006.
Some of the pre64's that went into FBI service with the hunting scopes came out of USMC Special Services hunting rifles that at one time were checked out by servicemen who could hunt on bases or near post, and were some of the same Special Services rifles Jim Land seized for the early USMC Sniper program, Gunny Hathcocks first tour sniper rifle was one of those. (Later in life USSS fielded a Camp Perry competition team and you could find them hanging with the old mil crew mentioned here.)
The FBI got them, & the O3A4's from uncle Sam's misguided...
The few M21's the FBI got were "Old Hook" built guns.
Hook, Ray, Gunny, were all competitive shooters in inter service and Camp Perry competition and were the backbone of the mil sniper programs. Lones Wigger was Hooks commander in one of his 9th Infantry Division Sniper School tours.
That Army and Marine Sniper legends helping the FBI get their shit squared away was not unusual at all.
And finally, I remembered seeing the piece of shit 760 pumps, after reading the NRA article. A few were floating around in field agents cars along with the original 3 prong flash hider m16's, I can remember the barrels were rusted up just like the ones did in Vietnam. And the 70's field agents werent gun people. RVN Vet municipal police were cleaning their guns for them.
Our local agents scrounged military ball in 308 and 556 from local guard units and off Ft. Benning and other bases.
Our pd department guard guys would survey that ammo and trade for something field agents had a f'ton of, 38 caliber 148 gr. match wadcutters, that was for the pd qual round, which was soooo much better than department reloads...
The early FBI rifle people were like red headed step children getting all kinds of hand me downs, until Ray Sweet and the FBI Armorer built the M40 clones.
The FBI story sounds so much like what Jim Land and Gunny went through setting up the USMC sniper program that it's not funny. And that story is well documented.
J. Asshole Edgar H would not allow anything out that damaged the 'IMAGE' he wanted people to see of the FBI, the egotistical bastard that he was.... just sayin. So much FBI history is lost today because once you fell out of favor with him, your records disappeared.
Collecting registered 357 magnum FBI pistols and trying to trace their trails has taught a few of us that disappearing act thing.
You guys wanting background need to print off the NRA article and put that in your folders.... it's a damn good historical thing to keep.
In the NRA article, one picture is credited to "Boone", who was a FBI ballistician who, you might have guessed, USED TO BE A HIDE MEMBER, until the bullshitters got on his nerve one too many times. He lives two hours from my house now...
Will he share FN info, will he not.... hmmm.
And this older person mutters on...
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I‘m going to guess that’s a USSS Countersniper? Haven’t seen their latest rifles but guess that’s it. The jethro sized binoculars are pretty standard for the Secret Service Sniper teams as well.
That scope mount is a LaRue. One of the best quick change mounts out there!
Theres a topic on that pic in the bear pit,
The Model 70 looks like a Pre War.
I wonder if the FBI ended up with a bunch of the mil purchased M70s that havent really been accounted for.
Looks like the S&B has the QR code on the bell.
Had a question come my way recently regarding someone wanting to recreate those markings after finding them under the special edition PSR scope bling.
Perhaps USSS was the agency those "over runs" were created for.
My bad if my post was early.
Damn it I get out of the pit for one post and screw it up.
Great article.
Observations...
- Concur with his opinion on the T10. I might need to build another rifle because I have one dismounted sitting.
- Love the soft pack of Marlboros - before the days of PC
- Three shots to join the 1/4 inch club? Shouldnt it be 5 these days?
I'm a little surprised there isn't one lit hanging from his lip. There used to be different types of "group tightener" back in the day.
Im guessing they started finding those yellow circular burn marks on the McMillans and made them take the lung dart out of the mouth while firing.
That's a nice rifle Skunk, appreciate you sharing and all the other info you guts have shared.
Skunk, this picture you posted of your push feed Model 70 gave me a bit of inspiration I needed for a rifle I own that I want to build similar to yours. It's a push feed Model 70 circa 1977, my father purchased it new as his first brand new hunting rifle.
Over the years, hot reloads and a lot of hunting trips have taken its toll on the old featherweight .270 barrel. He dropped it out of a tree stand one morning and busted the original stock and didn't save it unfortunately. So I've got the barreled action, which is in great shape save for the smoked barrel.
We are Douglas Barrels fans since they are local to us so it will get a Douglas barrel. The plan is to chamber it in 308 to the specs graciously provided by j-huskey, much appreciated also. But I didn't really have any direction to take the rifle in until I saw this thread and your rifle. So the specs on that Mcmillan stock are:
- HTG Stock, heavy fill, Urban Camo.
Yours looks more like what I believe is called a "smear" stock than the more defined edges on the standard molded in Urban Camo? I assume Mcmillan can still do this "smear" effect when making a new stock? I've always liked the look of it.
I'm not too concerned with it being a 100% correct clone. I'll never sell it and will be shooting it. But I do enjoy building rifles and would like to build my Dads old hand me down Model 70 to these specs. I'll likely never get my hands on a "correct" scope, but will use something that's period correct anyways. Something that's functional enough to match the capability of the rifle.
Back on track of where the thread was going... The pic of the USSS sniper that DRT308 posted, is that a Mk13 or a custom job that they had built? I haven't picked at the picture close enough to be able to tell. It's crazy how far these rifles have came in just a few decades. I do have a soft spot for the vintage precision rigs though.
The rifle appears to be a Mk 13 Mod 7 with the FDE-colored 5-25x S&B scope from the PSR program, at least that was the opinion I read on this forum. Equipment the Secret Service uses is usually classified/not publicized - so that’s just a best guess from the pictures of that agent. It’s pretty rare to see their gear up close like that.
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Doesn’t the Mod 7 use a Stiller Tac300 ( Stamped “Mk13” by Stiller) reciever? The pictured rifle looks like an Rem 700 long action, which they have used forever.....
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My understanding is that McMillan won’t replicate the smear pattern seen in late 70’s early 80’s stocks. I built an M40A1 clone on a Mcm GP stock I purchased in the early 90’s and it was the same jersey cow pattern they use today. They did make a run of “pseudo smears” for a particular gunsmith but they still don’t replicate the old smear pattern stocks. I had to do some creative painting and sanding of my GP stock to give it a look similar to but not exactly like a smear.
I sold that rifle but am building another on a new M40A1 “spec” stock from Mcm. You can see compared to my Super Match stock there is a little more detail put into the camo pattern, you might be able to ask for this treatment in the urban camo pattern.
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Classified at the unclassified level. Which is to say, it ain’t classified.
The scopes for these older Rem700/Win70 FBI rifles are nothing special.
Leupold 3.5-10x40 Vari-XIII Tactical. I think most had Mil-dot reticles but some had standard Duplex’s.
Leupold 3.5-10x40 Vari-XIII Tactical. I think most had Mil-dot reticles but some had standard Duplex’s.
Good deal, because that is exactly the scope I had in mind for it believe it or not. I had a Vari-X III Tactical 3.5-10x with duplex and I sold it a few years ago with intentions of replacing it with the same model but with Mil-Dot reticle...
They are a pretty basic scope, I never had any issues with my old one. But I honestly didn't shoot it enough to justify an honest review. At least with a Mil-Dot reticle I can have a little more versatility over the duplex, had to dial everything.
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