Federal Match primer duds?

[garandman]

I have had 3 failures to fire on federal match primers out of about 90 total loaded.



Yes all rounds have powder in them and primer strikes look sufficient to me



Anyone else having problems? Yes I already did a search.

 

[cornhusker86]

The strikes on the rounds that failed to fire are light compared to the fired cases. Inconsistent primer seating depth could be a cause. Also, check the firing pin spring and make sure it's not caked up with crud or rusty.

Depending on how you stored the primers, some could have gone bad. Damp condtions have ruined many a primer.

 

[garandman]

Would the round firing and the backward pressure increase the size of the firing print crater?

 

[lash]

I only have only a little bit of experience with Federal GMM primers, at 4000, but the first thing I would check is consistent seating depth, followed by headspace control and then the firing pin.

 

[cornhusker86]

Not as much as you might think, given that's a pretty mild load.

 

[lash]

Would the round firing and the backward pressure increase the size of the firing print crater?

Absolutely. Exactly by as much as the headspace and chamber tolerance allows it to be.

 

[garandman]

Not as much as you might think, given that's a pretty mild load.

This was 41.5 gr H4150.

 

[cornhusker86]

Absolutely. Exactly by as much as the headspace and chamber tolerance allows it to be.

This is true but, in my experience, excess headspace will show signs of cratering on the primer. If the primer is still round on the shoulder, the cratering isn't from overpressure. The case slamming back into the bolt face is the cause. His fired rounds don't really show that.

 

[garandman]

I did take the opportunity to clean up the bolt and the firing pin. .. Much as I could without disassembling it.


Rem 700 action. The bolt face does not remove from the bolt body. Only the rear of the bolt is serviceable.



Guess I gotta figure out how to tear this bolt down

Primers are probably 5 plus years old but have always been stored in safe dry location.

 

[lash]

This is true but, in my experience, excess headspace will show signs of cratering on the primer. If the primer is still round on the shoulder, the cratering isn't from overpressure. The case slamming back into the bolt face is the cause. His fired rounds don't really show that.

I don’t disagree at all.

 

[cornhusker86]

This was 41.5 gr H4150.

Understood. If your bullets are seated long, that charge weight is no longer an indication what pressure you're running.

 

[cornhusker86]

 

[garandman]

The failure to fire were all in the 1st 8 rounds fired today. The next 17 rounds fired without hitch.



I'm going to guess bad primers or whatever was restricting firing pin movement corrected itself.



I will figure out how to service this bolt in then keep an eye on it

 

[spife7980]

 

[cornhusker86]

Several companies make tools just for the purpose of breaking down Model 700 bolts. I have a Sinclair.

 

[garandman]

Thanx. Field stripped the bolt. It looked fine no rust or crud. Cleaned it all up anyway , reassembled and function checked.

Gtg.

 

[bax]

I have fired tens of thousands of 205M, 210M, and 215M and I have never had one fail to fire. When reloading federal match primers, I always insert them using a Sinclair priming tool and that means that I individually handle every primer.

It is really hard to kill a primer. Maybe 15-20 years ago there was a guy at Dillon who really worked at it. Soaking a loaded round in oil for a year didn't do it. I suppose that you might have found a way but I would not start there.

I'm thinking that you have too much headspace. You pull the trigger, the firing pin pushing the round forward until the case shoulder hits the chamber shoulder, the firing pin keeps going, mashes the primer cup against the anvil, the priming compound fires, the powder starts to turn to gas and pressure goes way the hell up, pressure forces the front part of the case against the chamber walls, the pressure pushes the case base back against the bolt face stretching the brass just above the web ... and so forth.

If there is too much headspace, the firing pin shoulder hits the shoulder inside the bolt body before the case shoulder hits the chamber shoulder and before the firing pin can mash the primer cup against the anvil and you don't get ignition.

Another possibility - again, just an idea, I could be completely wrong - you uniformed your primer pockets so deep that when the firing pin stops moving forward the primer anvil feet don't hit bottom. If this is the situation, you could have misfires even if the case to chamber was a perfect fit - no headspace at all.

I think it is interesting that the primers on the three misfires look different from the fired cases. The primer cup is dished, not flat like the fired cases. The firing pin whacked them but didn't cause ignition. In the middle and right-hand cases, the primer is sunk pretty deep - think about my "other possibility". I also noticed that once they started to fire, they kept firing. I'm wondering if one was just long enough to fire, some soot was pushed down in the chamber and in effect shortened the chamber so even though the rounds had a short shoulder, everything worked. By any chance did you try to fire those rounds after you got fired rounds? That would support the theory about soot shortening the chamber.

EDIT: Sorry one more idea. if you ever pierced a primer, sometimes a tiny cup of primer cup is formed on the tip of the firing pin and the gas pressure blows that tiny piece of metal around the firing pin and inside the bolt. In a Remington bolt, there is a larger cylindrical bore with a shoulder then a small tapered section ending in the firing pin hole in the bolt face. Think of the bottom of that cylindrical section as a shelf. When you pull the trigger the firing pin spring forces the firing pin forward and it stops when the firing pin shoulder hits that shelf. That little bit of metal can get stuck on that shelf and prevent the firing pin from making a full stroke. I have seen Stolle bench guns with three or four of those little bits of metal in there and that prevents the gun from firing. Remove the firing pin, point the bolt face up, tap the bottom of the bolt on an anvil - like a vice - and they fall out. One of life's little mysteries

 

[garandman]

I have fired tens of thousands of 205M, 210M, and 215M and I have never had one fail to fire. When reloading federal match primers, I always insert them using a Sinclair priming tool and that means that I individually handle every primer.

First time I ever had a live round go "click."

Had 3 f-t-f in the first 8 rounds, then 17 staight fired.

Looking at it in person up close.... I just can't beleive it was insufficient firing pin strike. I've seen literally thousands of fired rounds. And this type firing pin indentation never failed to fire.

Not seeing how headspace "changed" ...haven't had any work done to the rifle / barrel / boltface.

Now....it COULD be something I'm doing with my reloads.


I switched back to CCI (NEVER had one of them FTF) I'll keep an eye on it. If it happens again, I'll pursue the headspace angle.

Besides.... I don't like the way Federal packages them....on their side. Makes it difficult to get into the priming tool.

 

[chevy_man]

Well, since federal and CCI have been damn near identical I'd find it odd if that fixes your problem. (Remember they're both Vista owned).
I'd bet on crud on the firing pin, that knocked loose after a few dry fires.

First time I ever had a live round go "click."

Had 3 f-t-f in the first 8 rounds, then 17 staight fired.

Looking at it in person up close.... I just can't beleive it was insufficient firing pin strike. I've seen literally thousands of fired rounds. And this type firing pin indentation never failed to fire.

Not seeing how headspace "changed" ...haven't had any work done to the rifle / barrel / boltface.

Now....it COULD be something I'm doing with my reloads.


I switched back to CCI (NEVER had one of them FTF) I'll keep an eye on it. If it happens again, I'll pursue the headspace angle.

Besides.... I don't like the way Federal packages them....on their side. Makes it difficult to get into the priming tool.

 

[garandman]

Well, since federal and CCI have been damn near identical I'd find it odd if that fixes your problem. (Remember they're both Vista owned).
I'd bet on crud on the firing pin, that knocked loose after a few dry fires.

Sounds reasonable., given the way it played out. I *still* say the primer indents are MORE than enuf to fire. The firing pin divot is more than enuf, and it doesn't show in the pic above, but the whole primer is concaved in.

Anywho.... Stripped the bolt (it was pretty clean inside) cleaned and lubed it anyway, and will monitor in in the future.

 

[RRG]

When I was having primer issues a few years ago, I suspected that I was not drying the cases well enough after ultra-sonic cleaning or that the CCI BR2's I was using at the time was the problem.

Anyway, I don't use the ultra-sonic cleaning method too much anymore and I used up that case of primers and started using Federal Primers. I have no misfires lately.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

In 20k rounds of SPP I've had two bad primers, one Winchester and one Fiocchi. Three in a row is not a manufacturing defect.

 

[spife7980]

Sounds reasonable., given the way it played out. I *still* say the primer indents are MORE than enuf to fire. The firing pin divot is more than enuf, and it doesn't show in the pic above, but the whole primer is concaved in.

Anywho.... Stripped the bolt (it was pretty clean inside) cleaned and lubed it anyway, and will monitor in in the future.

Deprime those "more than enuf" primers, take them outside, set them on the concrete, *for the sissies: put on hearing protection and stick something between you and them to block splatter* and then smack em with a hammer. That will quickly show whether they were smacked "enuf"or not.

 

[garandman]

Deprime those "more than enuf" primers, take them outside, set them on the concrete, *for the sissies: put on hearing protection and stick something between you and them to block splatter* and then smack em with a hammer. That will quickly show whether they were smacked "enuf"or not.

I was so weirded out by the FTF that I didn't even try to re-chamber and fire them. I'll try that first.

 

[garandman]

When I was having primer issues a few years ago, I suspected that I was not drying the cases well enough after ultra-sonic cleaning or that the CCI BR2's I was using at the time was the problem.

Anyway, I don't use the ultra-sonic cleaning method too much anymore and I used up that case of primers and started using Federal Primers. I have no misfires lately.

Interesting. These were wet tumbled and loaded about 24 hrs later.....

I didn't "oven bake" the cases. Had them under a heat lamp for a while. Mightcould explain the problem.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Interesting. These were wet tumbled and loaded about 24 hrs later.....

I didn't "oven bake" the cases. Had them under a heat lamp for a while. Mightcould explain the problem.

I bought a food dehydrator on Amazon for $35 and it reduces the drying time to an hour or less. I used to use the oven method and wish I had gone to the dehydrator sooner. The benefit is a fan blowing air over the hot brass removes moisture a lot faster than just heat alone.

 

[MarinePMI]

Deprime those "more than enuf" primers, take them outside, set them on the concrete, *for the sissies: put on hearing protection and stick something between you and them to block splatter* and then smack em with a hammer. That will quickly show whether they were smacked "enuf"or not.

You forgot the part about having someone hold their beer for them...

 

[bax]

I bought a food dehydrator on Amazon for $35 and it reduces the drying time to an hour or less. I used to use the oven method and wish I had gone to the dehydrator sooner. The benefit is a fan blowing air over the hot brass removes moisture a lot faster than just heat alone.

Okay, I'm a neandertal but you guys go through so much "sturm und drang" with cases. I tumble 'em in corncob, smear on Imperial, resize them, tumble them in corncob, and rock on. I'm fussy about headspace but not VERY fussy. Do you have targets to prove that your process is better than mine?

 

[padom]

I either throw them in the oven on lowest setting for 25min or dry tumble in corn cob..

I've fired 100,000+ 205, 210, 205M, 210M and counting and to date I have never had a primer not go bang. Ever.

 

[garandman]

Okay, I'm a neandertal but you guys go through so much "sturm und drang" with cases. I tumble 'em in corncob, smear on Imperial, resize them, tumble them in corncob, and rock on. I'm fussy about headspace but not VERY fussy. Do you have targets to prove that your process is better than mine?

I De prime/size, wet tumble, and then dry.


To size, I roll in case lube on a case lube pad and then spray Hornady one shot inside the case neck.

I'm anywhere between 0.4 and 0.7".

 

[bax]

I De prime/size, wet tumble, and then dry.


To size, I roll in case lube on a case lube pad and then spray Hornady one shot inside the case neck.

I'm anywhere between 0.4 and 0.7".

yup. I'm shooting a 308 and I'm 0.4 to 0.7 out of a Hart barrel installed on that action by Dan Dowling in the 90's with a ton of rounds through it. It has to be AT LEAST 6,000 rounds, probably 8,000. I lost track in the early 2000's at 4,000. The barrel has been off the receiver at least a couple dozen times. I bedded it into a new McMillan about 5 years ago. I'm using Lake City LR brass, 175 SMKs and 4064. It just goes bang every time and all I have to do is clean it.

 

[spife7980]

You forgot the part about having someone hold their beer for them...

No one touches my beer now, ya hear! ?

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Okay, I'm a neandertal but you guys go through so much "sturm und drang" with cases. I tumble 'em in corncob, smear on Imperial, resize them, tumble them in corncob, and rock on. I'm fussy about headspace but not VERY fussy. Do you have targets to prove that your process is better than mine?

It's not better. If your process works don't change it. Wet tumbling is arguably more complex and time consuming.

 

[lash]

Okay, I'm a neandertal but you guys go through so much "sturm und drang" with cases. I tumble 'em in corncob, smear on Imperial, resize them, tumble them in corncob, and rock on. I'm fussy about headspace but not VERY fussy. Do you have targets to prove that your process is better than mine?

Not too different here. Deprime, tumble in walnut shell, measure a couple and if over max length trim the lot of them (usually 3rd/4th time), smear with Imperial, FL resize, clean cases in a flat tray with some brake cleaner spray. Every so often, clean all of the primer pockets.

 

[garandman]

I obsess about shiny brass. Wet tumbling with lemishine just works better for me then corncob.

 

[lash]

Different strokes.

 

[padom]

I've done it all. SS, Ultrasonic, Dry tumbler. I went back to dry tumbling...the target down range could care less what your brass looks like...

 

[garandman]

Update:

Went back to the range and refired the 3 duds.

Nothing.

Switched over to CCI bench rest and went 25 for 25 with no Failure to fire. Had never ever had a problem with this rifle.


If these weren't dud primers then I killed them somehow.


I do have my own personal rain cloud and have found whatever can go wrong will go wrong in my life unless I pay close attention to make it go right. And even then ... lol

 

[MarinePMI]

Some people create their own storms, and then complain when it rains...

Not saying that is necessarily you, but thought it worth mentioning for the wider audience.

 

[garandman]

AM range time:

Was testing length to ogive. Length to lands is 2.262~ ish. This was from a clean barrel on the upper left target.



Got to a 6.4 SD by the 5th group. Some really interesting stuff on muzzle velocity on a clean versus a dirty barrel.

 

[garandman]

Some people create their own storms, and then complain when it rains...

Not saying that is necessarily you, but thought it worth mentioning for the wider audience.

As noted above this may well have been me. Wet tumbled these cases and then loaded them 24 hours later.

 

[MarinePMI]

Like was mentioned above, tossing wet brass (that has had most of the water shaken out) onto a cookie sheet and put in the oven on "Warm" for about 20 mins, gets them hot enough to vaporize the remaining moisture from the cases...won't harm the brass, and has worked every time.

ETA: A gas annealer does not get the cases hot enough to do this (trust me, I know).

 

[garandman]

Lesson lurnt. My wife will LOVE this news....

 

[MarinePMI]

Oh, and the "bowling ball method" of getting the cases mostly dry is the preferred way (for me) to ensure most of the residual water is knocked out of the case.

 

[lash]

Moisture may have been your issue in this case, but I still want to drop this article here for anyone else reading that is still learning:

Primer Seating Depth Uniformity and Accuracy « Daily Bulletin

USAMU shows how to measure primer seating depth for precision reloading. High primers can cause feeding problems or dangerous slam fires.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

Btw, I always consider myself as still learning and always read or re-read anything I post or reference. Repetition is a standard for rote learning.

 

[garandman]

I may have "booted" seating depth too, on these 3. I never have b4 (never ever had a FTF on any of the 1000s of rounds I've loaded... but there is always a first time... ) , but these Fed Match seated REALLY hard (compared to he CCI.) Generally I seat till the pimer "bottoms out." If there's a better way, I want to know about it. So.... Thx for the article...

 

[Rootshot]

FWIW - I had a similar issue recently. I let a friend reload on my equipment. Little did I know he was reloading crimped 308 brass and wasn't experienced enough to recognize this nor what "normal primer seating pressure" feels like. The excessive force needed to seat the primers past the crimps damaged the plastic seating assembly in my Lee priming tool (I keep one priming tool assembled for each cartridge I own).

Because of this damage, the next time I reloaded for myself, primers were seated too deep causing similar reliability issues. Luckily it's cheap to order a replacement primer seating assembly for Lee hand priming tools and all is well again.

Check your gear!

 

[garandman]

Because of this damage, the next time I reloaded for myself, primers were seated too deep causing similar reliability issues. Luckily it's cheap to order a replacement primer seating assembly for Lee hand priming tools and all is well again.

Check your gear!

I use RCBS. Its metal. And I like hand-held primer seating tools, so I can tactile-y feel the amt of pressure needed. Still.... I'm gonna check the article above.

 

[Rootshot]

I use RCBS. Its metal. And I like hand-help primer seating tools, so I can tactile-y feel the amt of pressure needed. Still.... I'm gonna check the article above.

Yup. I also have a metal RCBS tool that's about 20 years old and going strong. Metal beats plastic.

 

[garandman]

I esp like the variable spring loaded shell holder jaw on the RCBS.