FL bushing sizing die & trimming shit-show...

ceekay1

\m/ SLAYER \m/
PX Member
Minuteman
Sep 2, 2020
112
66
Something looks really weird here. What seater are you using? Is it crimping while seating? View attachment 7448264
Yeah, I'm crimping them. I'm using a 9mm Factory Crimp Die :rolleyes:😜

I trimmed thousands of cases with the Lee set up when I first started loading. It works fine and actually leaves a great edge when used correctly. I don’t think that’s your problem.
I figured it out late last night/earlier in the thread.
The Lee setup I have is either way out of spec or just plain wonky, it was having me use the flat deburr/chamfer blade to take the cases down from 1.915 to 1.900" because I found out the hard way that the actual trimmer/cutter stopped cutting at 1.915".
 

lightman

Sergeant
PX Member
Minuteman
May 18, 2009
1,155
335
63
England, ar
From looking at the pictures it looks like you possibly have 2 problems.

1. You may have over annealed your cases. Try some of the above advice before you try annealing again.
2. It looks like you didn't chamfer the inside of the case mouth after trimming.

I save old cases with split case necks and loose primer pockets to use when setting up to anneal.
 

ceekay1

\m/ SLAYER \m/
PX Member
Minuteman
Sep 2, 2020
112
66
Over doing the anneal job is still a possibility, but after pulling all the bullets, it's more likely my issues were just a product of the Lee trimmer I was using not working like it said it was supposed to, and me not catching it until after I'd fucked the lot of them.

Since the trimmer blade wasn't really cutting after a certain point and I was whittling down the cases with the deburr/chamfer thingy... I was basically unknowingly putting a knife's edge on the rim of the cases: a couple bit into the bullet jackets more than others and I just forced them while seating, crushing a couple badly. After figuring out what was happening, I'm not so sure it was too soft brass as much as just brute force with the leverage of the press to crush the couple I really squashed.
 
Last edited:

smoothy8500

Private
PX Member
Minuteman
Online Training Access
Oct 10, 2012
539
276
South Orange County, CA
and decap and salvage the primers.
You can decap live primers. Just go slow and you'll be fine. I've done it several times.
Not a safety concern but more of an accuracy concern. Wouldn’t the pressure of the decapping pin alter the shape or “crush” the priming material and potentially affect accuracy with inconsistent ignition ?
 

lightman

Sergeant
PX Member
Minuteman
May 18, 2009
1,155
335
63
England, ar
Not a safety concern but more of an accuracy concern. Wouldn’t the pressure of the decapping pin alter the shape or “crush” the priming material and potentially affect accuracy with inconsistent ignition ?
I would say that thats a possibility. But I have deprimed lots of brass with live primers and have not noticed any crushed compound or altered anvils. But having said that, I don't used recycled primers in my match, hunting or SD ammo. I will use them when doing things like shooting Prairie Dogs or varmints here around home.

And just to be clear when I said that I have removed quite a few live primers. I really don't make that many mistakes. Its just that people give me ammo, I pick up live rounds at shooting places, ect. And I won't shoot unknown ammo.
 

Snuby642

Two Star General
PX Member
Minuteman
  • Feb 11, 2017
    5,237
    6,285
    I had problems with a hornady factory crimp die that looked similar.

    After fooling with it eventually it was a simple fix.

    I got a Lee set and life got better.
     

    ceekay1

    \m/ SLAYER \m/
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 2, 2020
    112
    66
    I was kidding earlier guys, I wasn't't crimping anything lol.
     

    nightman89

    Private
    Minuteman
    Jun 6, 2020
    52
    20
    Not a safety concern but more of an accuracy concern. Wouldn’t the pressure of the decapping pin alter the shape or “crush” the priming material and potentially affect accuracy with inconsistent ignition ?
    I guess it's always a possibility. Those primers could always be set aside for range only use like others have said. But honestly it takes very little pressure to decap the primer. As long as you go slow I doubt you'll damage any to the point that won't fire.
     

    NiteQwill

    Private
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 26, 2012
    369
    256
    Uncle Sam's Bottom
    Just get a Giraud or Henderson.

    You're just spinning in circles at this point. Make your life easier. Get better equipment.

    I went through so much useless, cheaper equipment before figuring it out.
     

    FLIGHT762

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 27, 2008
    1,218
    184
    California/SFO
    Just get a Giraud or Henderson.

    You're just spinning in circles at this point. Make your life easier. Get better equipment.

    I went through so much useless, cheaper equipment before figuring it out.
    It sure is nice to trim 15+ cases per minute on a Giraud. Makes case trimming no big deal.
     

    ceekay1

    \m/ SLAYER \m/
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 2, 2020
    112
    66
    Just get a Giraud or Henderson.

    You're just spinning in circles at this point. Make your life easier. Get better equipment.

    I went through so much useless, cheaper equipment before figuring it out.
    It sure is nice to trim 15+ cases per minute on a Giraud. Makes case trimming no big deal.
    Lol. I just emailed Giraud to ask about the Tri-Way for 6mm Creed (the website details are a little fuzzy about whether it'll work or not with only a few other cartridges specifically listed, they mention ".308 family" and .243 Win is mentioned, but not sure if that means 6 creed is good to go or not)...

    If I can grab one of those, I'm pretty sure I'd be all set.
     

    NiteQwill

    Private
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 26, 2012
    369
    256
    Uncle Sam's Bottom
    Lol. I just emailed Giraud to ask about the Tri-Way for 6mm Creed (the website details are a little fuzzy about whether it'll work or not with only a few other cartridges specifically listed, they mention ".308 family" and .243 Win is mentioned, but not sure if that means 6 creed is good to go or not)...

    If I can grab one of those, I'm pretty sure I'd be all set.
    Giraud has a trimmer in pretty much any caliber at this time, including 6 mm Creed. Great people to talk to on the phone. Old school ordering over the phone, no website ordering, but very straightforward and dependable. Been calling them and doing business with them for 10+ years.

    Good luck!
     

    straight-shooter

    Private
    Minuteman
    Sep 10, 2020
    27
    27
    I bought a Tri-way trimmer for each caliber. This way it's always ready to go because even if the particular Tri-Way trimmer is for several parent cases the blade would still need to be setup everytime when switching calibers.
     

    spife7980

    Luchador
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Feb 10, 2017
    8,640
    6,902
    Central TX
    Giraud has a trimmer in pretty much any caliber at this time, including 6 mm Creed. Great people to talk to on the phone. Old school ordering over the phone, no website ordering, but very straightforward and dependable. Been calling them and doing business with them for 10+ years.

    Good luck!
    Wrong and especially wrong for the triway


    Lol. I just emailed Giraud to ask about the Tri-Way for 6mm Creed (the website details are a little fuzzy about whether it'll work or not with only a few other cartridges specifically listed, they mention ".308 family" and .243 Win is mentioned, but not sure if that means 6 creed is good to go or not)...

    If I can grab one of those, I'm pretty sure I'd be all set.
    The triway is not offered for a creed as far as I am aware. For the creed you will have to buy a blank and have someone ream it or step up to the bench top model.

    Look into the drill mounted trimit2 for an affordable option.
     

    ceekay1

    \m/ SLAYER \m/
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 2, 2020
    112
    66
    Wrong and especially wrong for the triway



    The triway is not offered for a creed as far as I am aware. For the creed you will have to buy a blank and have someone ream it or step up to the bench top model.

    Look into the drill mounted trimit2 for an affordable option.
    Yeah, heard back from Giraud about the Tri-Way: not available in 6mm creedmoor.

    I'm leaning towards the Trim It 2...

    I looked up some videos for the Frankford Arsenal all-in-one box and it looks like it works well, but is also looks just about as annoying as everything else that doesn't trim/chamfer/debur all at once.

    It's too bad the full-size Giraud is $500 because it looks like the jam, but rifle isn't really my main thing and I'm looking at trimming as more of a inescapable chore more so than as an for-accuracy thing. I'll probably end up getting one someday, but for now I just want something that lets me trim down to SAMMI minimum reliably and quickly when I have to (and that doesn't cost $500 I guess).
     

    spife7980

    Luchador
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Feb 10, 2017
    8,640
    6,902
    Central TX
    Get the trimit2. The same 3way cutter blade as the giraud uses. The blade is a bitch to set right for a given caliber initially but once there and locked in its super. Mounts in a drill to save your shoulders. Cheaper.

    I say once you are trimming (or possibly planning to) four calibers it’s worth it to look into the bench top. Below that you can do just as well for cheaper with the trimit2/triway stuff.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: ceekay1

    Precision Underground

    Rifle Gear
    Commercial Supporter
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 21, 2017
    2,358
    2,126
    Tallahassee, FL
    Yeah, I'm crimping them. I'm using a 9mm Factory Crimp Die :rolleyes:😜



    I figured it out late last night/earlier in the thread.
    The Lee setup I have is either way out of spec or just plain wonky, it was having me use the flat deburr/chamfer blade to take the cases down from 1.915 to 1.900" because I found out the hard way that the actual trimmer/cutter stopped cutting at 1.915".
    You wouldnt be the first person here asking for help that crushed cases with a crimp seater, hence the reason we didn’t know if you were joking. Plus a factory crimp die couldn’t cause this.

    Unless you were pressing too hard on the trimmer and bending the case mouth in I can’t imagine too much chamfer casing this. You don’t want a sharp edge but unless you are using flat base bullets it shouldn’t grab the bullet like that. If you pressed hard enough the chamfer would probably curl the mouth in.
     
    Last edited:

    sgtsmmiii

    Lieutenant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 2, 2010
    559
    168
    65
    Lexington, KY
    Let me throw a couple of other things out there ( in addition to the good advice previously offered ) - first is I trim my cases before annealing - after annealing they are soft(er) and sometimes "grabby" when running the cutter ( so you don't get a nice , smooth cut ). The next ( bigger ) thing is that annealing leaves the interior of the case necks "dry" ( go figure :LOL: ) - so when you go to seat your bullet it takes a lot more force to seat it - potentially causing a seater ring around the bullet or collapsing the case neck into the annealed case. So, I dip the case neck ( or the bullet bearing surface ) into powdered graphite or motor mica to lubricate it prior to dropping the powder into the case. This provides less and more consistent bullet seating pressure.

    PS: Glad you got your trimmer issue straightened out. (y)
     
    • Like
    Reactions: ceekay1

    ceekay1

    \m/ SLAYER \m/
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 2, 2020
    112
    66
    Thanks for all the help guys, this place is a great resource.

    Turns out my DIY anneal job was ok after all or at least not a failure, I loaded up most of the brass (besides the squashed ones obviously lol, and some that were just too chewed up to be worth trying) and fired them... zero case head failures or anything else wonky. I just wanted to see if I indeed tracked it down to the shitty trimmer/trimming train wreck and decided that was the only way to truly know... all that brass has been retired for now though, the case mouths are just too chewed up and I trimmed it too short anyways really.
    I don't know what I was thinking trying to bring it down to 1.900" anyways when 1.910" is usually the accepted/ubiquitous "trim to" length, if it wasn't all sharp and chewed up I'd probably just keep loading it to bring it back to a normal length but I don't want to waste anymore barrel life on it.

    Now I've got to decide between going with the Trim-It 2 to knock out trimming/deburring/chamfering all in one pass, or, going with the Frankford Arsenal drill-mount trimmer and just doing a few passes to debur/chamfer. They both have their pros/cons: the Trim-It does all 3 chores in one pass and doesn't make a mess, which I like, but seems it can be a pain to setup... the Frankford drill-mounted trimmer looks easy to setup and comes ready to trim any/all cartridges for down the road all in one box (it's pretty much just like a WFT with all the bushings included), which is nice, but it also throws chips everywhere like most trimmers, and means handling the brass a couple more times to debur/chamfer...

    After the shit-show with the Lee trimmer, I think I'm leaning towards "less is more" honestly and going with the Frankford trimmer and deburring and chamfering as extra steps, because with my luck, the Trim It may kick ass when setup correctly, but I'm a little weary of what it does to brass when it's NOT setup correctly... because in the end: wrecking a bunch of brass quickly is actually much worse than being slow, but getting it right without messing it up... IDK, gotta figure it out...
     

    338dude

    Sergeant of the Hide
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    May 27, 2018
    180
    192
    Tennessee
    So, still relatively new to bolt-guns and long-range stuff, but have been getting great results thus far... I'm shooting 6mm Creedmoor and had bought 100rds of Hornady Match ammo to start me off and give me my first batch of brass to learn to reload for the rifle with... got a single-stage setup for the rifle stuff.

    Everything had been going great, and my loads were turning out pretty sick, yielding around .3" 100yrd groups, under an inch at 300, so I seem to have figured out part of the puzzle anyways... I've never used the expander-ball in my sizing die even once, bushing only and my groups have been telling me I've been doing it right. But, after years of shooting pistols in USPSA/IDPA and loading thousands of pistol rounds on a Dillon I never had to trim shit, so no experience there.

    Anyways, my brass had 4 firings on it and was right about at SAAMI max, so it was time for me to figure out how to anneal and trim: the annealing part went fine (blowtorch/power-drill method), trimming not so much lol.

    I bought a Lee Deluxe Power Quick Trim setup, quick trim die & trim bit using a drill, thought it would be simpler because it deburrs/chamfers at the same time as it trims.

    Steps were: decap, anneal, wet tumble, lube & FL size bushing die (no expander ball), dry tumble (remove lube), trim, prime, powder, seat bullets.

    Seating bullets was a total shit-show, over half of the rounds are total shit (obviously not concentric), a couple fubar squashed, none of them really fit the case gauge like as usual for me... pulled the firing pin out of my bolt just to see if they'd even chamber in my gun, and except for the ones that are totally fucked, they do, just with a tight bolt-close.

    Guessing the trimming was fucked up because I didn't use an expander ball or an expander mandrel die... is that the answer, have to expand the necks before trimming?
    Or, does the Quick Trim just suck ass and I need to buy a better trimming setup?

    Thanks.
    Over annealed your brass is too soft plus if you expand your photo I see shavings around the seated bullet which indicate your necks are way too tight or not chamfered properly
     

    Mike Casselton

    Trunk Monkey
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 25, 2007
    5,175
    7,354
    Lithia, FL
    The little Lyman trimmer paired with a case prep center is fast and accurate.
    I did change the deburr and chamfer bits to the Lyman VLD set.
    Both tools are now mounted to a small board at the angle I like and it makes the job I hate most, very easy.

    20190802_104848.jpg
     

    ceekay1

    \m/ SLAYER \m/
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 2, 2020
    112
    66
    I ordered the Frankford Arsenal Universal Precision Case Trimmer (basically a WFT with all the thingys included to do whatever cartridges), I guess I’ll see how it goes... Looks pretty fool-proof and with just setting the cutter to touch the mouth of a case to be trimmed, looks like I can set an easy “zero” and then use the butt-end of some calipers to find out where to park it to be right where I want to be.

    I also spent the whopping $20 to buy an actual hand deburr/chamfer tool (literally hundreds to thousands into this stuff and I’ve still been using an old Benchmade up until this point lol). While I am a huge fan of speed and thought about going with one of the many options of motorized or drill-mounted deburr/chamfer tools, I decided the chance of me overdoing it with most of those and putting more of a knifes-edge on case mouths rather than getting a good feel for just hitting them lightly might actually take longer than just spinning a case around with my fingers a couple times, because honestly it shouldn’t take much if the trim cut is clean... guess I’ll see...
     

    Coyotehill

    Private
    Minuteman
    Sep 23, 2020
    5
    1
    First, I have never replied to a thread until now. So there is a combination of stuff going on for you here. Yes you over annealed, but I'm guessing you used the same bushing when you sized. Your .002 press fit now became .006, then it's possible the trimmer pilot galled the neck I.D. add to that a lack of I.D. chamfer and you get exactly what happened. So again I'm guessing but find a way to measure the neck I.D. after sizing. Pins or ball gauge Or use an expander. I have been a machinist for 30yrs it's not always that easy to see what's coming when we change one small detail.
     

    NineHotel

    Private
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Dec 12, 2017
    289
    119
    Morrison CO
    I'm in agreement on the over annealing for one, and for two the chamfer is backwards on the rounds shown above. The outside diameter should have the burr removed and a very slight almost unnoticeable bevel, while the taper cut should be on the inside.

    This document is upside down, but you can see the correct end state result of a trimmed and deburred neck here. FYI the Gracey trimmer came with adjustable tool steel blades; they were not easy to adjust. Someone came out with a one piece carbide cutter with the correct angles for trimming chamfering and deburring. I've used both setups with success.


    I'm not that familiar with the Lee product, but at the end of the day this is the desired result.

    Lastly, there is the issue of whether or not you are using too tight of a neck bushing. Note that in one piece full sizing dies, you have to decide what you want to touch the neck last to determine your final neck OD. You need to use one OR the other - the button OR the bushing - not BOTH - though you can use both, but understand that the final size will be based on the OD of the button, not the ID of the bushing. Using both is a valid method assuming you are good with the ID created by the button, and in this case the bushing controls how much you size the neck down before pulling the button back through.

    As I shoot a 6mm/22-250, which is very similar to the Creedmoor ballistically and adopted it over a decade before the Creedmoor chamberings came out, I use a Redding competition die set made for 6/250 (it's been a common wildcat for decades, in fact the 22/250 was a wildcat using a necked down 250 Savage case that then became a standard chambering). I use the tapered expander ball to neck up from .223 to .243 ID for the first loading, then after that pull the stem out and just use the bushing to set my neck OD.

    Don't scoff at expanders - Redding makes them in different sizes, so you can control neck tension with them. OD bushings will vary your ID/neck tension based on the variance in thickness of your necks, so often bushings are used with neck turning of the cases. Talk about another way to create a bunch of brass scrap metal while learn to use a neck turner and perfect your technique ;).

    A prominent poster from decades past that did a lot of experimenting and documenting on the BBSs back in the 90s, Bart Bobbitt, once took his 308 Palma rifle to the range, set up on a rest at 600 yards, took his reloading gear, and shot a single 308 Win case (Winchester brass) 30 TIMES doing nothing more than full length sizing, priming/dropping powder/seating the bullet - without a case failure nor notable change in accuracy.

    I have had hot loads shorten case length; I've had hot loads lengthen case length; I've had rifles with good barrels, a good smith cutting the chamber with a good reamer, and headspace in the .001"-.002" over minimum fired cases basically not change case length once settled in after the first firing when using loads below SAAMI MAX pressure. Oh and I've never annealed a case in my life. My current back of 308 Lapua cases have 8 firings on them and are showing no signs of problems.

    All things to consider regarding your choices around reloading room time and process.

    (EDIT TO ADD: I only use the Gracey for high volume stuff; I have 2 - one for 556 and one for 762, so I don't have to monkey with the blades. For all other chamberings I use a Forster mini lathe and an OOOOOLLLLLDDDDDD (like from the 50s that was my dads) CH inside/outside chamfer tool)
     
    Last edited:

    Mike_in_FL

    Supporter
    PX Member
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Feb 29, 2008
    1,022
    190
    Tampa Bay, FL
    The next ( bigger ) thing is that annealing leaves the interior of the case necks "dry" ( go figure :LOL: ) - so when you go to seat your bullet it takes a lot more force to seat it - potentially causing a seater ring around the bullet or collapsing the case neck into the annealed case. So, I dip the case neck ( or the bullet bearing surface ) into powdered graphite or motor mica to lubricate it prior to dropping the powder into the case. This provides less and more consistent bullet seating pressure.
    I was going to mention this as most people say if you wet tumble your brass you're removing everything. So there isn't any carbon left inside the neck and that seating pressure is higher. I use this stuff too: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012767842?pid=319390

    @ceekay1, I have some WFT myself and they work well for me, even if I'm doing a bunch of LC 5.56.
     

    ceekay1

    \m/ SLAYER \m/
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 2, 2020
    112
    66
    Well got shit sorted guys... thanks to the proliferation of free one-day shipping I was able to try my new Frankford Arsenal Universal Precision Case trimmer, which is more or less their WFT2 homage/rip-off, but with a couple interesting tricks that make it interesting (besides that it comes with everything to trim most any/all calibers from the jump): it has it's collet-guide-thingy which I thought looked dumb but turns out is actually awesome, and it's super fast/easy to setup and dial in.

    First the collet-guide-thingy: IMO this is actually the thing that probably most sets the Frankford jobber apart and brings it into it's own vs the WFT/WFT2 and maybe some of the others out there: the collet-guide thingys make it almost impossible for one to trim cases lopsided or off-centre because it supports more than half of the case, holding it plumb/straight to the cutter for you (instead of just using the shoulder like the WFT). They got this right IMO, there's almost no way to not trim the case-mouths straight and fuck them up since the washer that provides the shoulder-index is recessed inside at the end of the "tunnel" made by the collet thingy.

    Second, setup takes like 2-3 minutes if you go slow... I did it like this: assemble the thing with the correct shoulder washer and collet thing so there's no real slop in the case, adjust the cutter until it just barely contacts the case (no drill yet), mic the length of the ass-end of the case sticking out of the thing (remember this number), mic the un-trimmed case for length, decide how much you need to take off to get where you want to be and add that amount to the first measurement you took, adjust the thing so it pushes the ass-end of the case out of the front to reach that measured amount, done. Trim away.

    I trimmed 100 cases in 10 minutes, no real variance beyond .00005"ish or the limits of what calipers can catch (same head stamp of course).

    Cut was clean enough where only 2-3 spins on a hand-held VLD chamfer/deburr tool was all that was needed, wouldn't even be worth it or really any faster to use anything fancier, cases came out perfect and 100 cases took around 20mins.

    Case prep still sucks, but now it sucks a bit less 😝
     
    • Like
    Reactions: straightshooter1