Flying with firearms beware...

[SPAK]

Hey folks, recently came back from a trip flying with some of my weapons.. I've flown with hand guns, rifles, suppressors ammo etc throughout Alaska following all of TSA guidelines. No problem checking them in. However, picking them up was a little strange.

Usually I've always had to go to baggage claim services and present my photo ID and my claim ticket to claim my weapons. This time coming through Chicago OHare my gun case came out of oversized baggage unattended with no one around.. I stopped one of the airline workers to ask if she was going to check my claim ticket or ID and she said no that it wasn't required. I asked her how she knew this was indeed my gun case and her reply was she didn't know and once it's out at baggage claim it wasn't their responsibility.

This happened to me at Dayton intl airport and happened to a friend of mine in San Antonio tx..

Seems a little strange that anyone can claim a rifle case out in the baggage area.

All through Alaska I've always been asked for my ID AND claim ticket.

Is this common flying weapons into the states?




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[jbjh]

Baggage security is paid for by the airlines and at many airports they don't want to absorb the cost. Baggage thieves know which airports have lax security


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[_Windrider_]

Baggage security is paid for by the airlines and at many airports they don't want to absorb the cost. Baggage thieves know which airports have lax security


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[Dogtown]

Yes, this drives me nuts too. I've flown domestically in NZ quite a bit with firearms as well as back and forth to the States and on the Air New Zealand side, it's very well controlled. On arrival, firearms are secured with oversized baggage until you pick it up with an ID and the firearms baggage receipt. Customs is a whole other issue obviously. But every single time I arrive in the States, I find my hard cases unsecured on the fucking carousel with everything else! Anyone could just pick it up and walk off...drives me mad!

 

[SPAK]

I called the ATF in Chicago and raised my points of concern. The agent said he agreed and would forward it to HQ.. We'll see if anything comes of it...


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[SPAK]

Makes me Leary of flying with custom rifles and suppressors...


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[bogeybrown]

I've actually never had to show I.D.

I've flown in and out of Chicago Midway and O'Hare with a declared pistol in my checked baggage and it came rolling right off the carousel with everything else, nothing additional required.
When I flew into Austin for the Accuracy 1st class, my rifle case was sitting on the over-sized luggage conveyor with everything else, no I.D. check.
Hell, I flew to and from Puerto Rico with a handgun and didn't have to do anything other than grab my bag off the carousel like everyone else.

I've never been given a "firearms luggage receipt" or anything other than a regular baggage claim check, which has never been requested.

 

[shovelstrokeed]

Insure your bag to be sure it goes to baggage claim for pickup. I don't know current cost but on Delta, with whom I did most of my flying, it was in the neighborhood of $10/$1000. Bag rules require special handling. Sign off at loading on plane, any stops and pickup along with a trip to baggage claim area, photo ID and bag check.

 

[SPAK]

Interesting, I didn't know you could insure your bags...I might be doing that from now on with my gun case.. At least flying back to the states....

 

[KYpatriot]

You called the ATF? Awesome. They are just as likely to issue a ruling that checking weapons should be banned entirely as they are to provide security. Asking the Feds to look into your problems is asking for trouble.

 

[SPAK]

I did consider that before I called. Trust me I did. But there's something wrong about allowing anyone to pick up a gun case at baggage claim...the airline didn't seem to care that weapons are up for grabs and it didn't matter who grabbed them. That's all we need is some other wacko stealing weapons from airports.

My weapons are costly. I value them as I'm sure everyone else does. I'd be pissed if someone just grabbed my gun case and the airline said ,"sorry. Nothing we can do."

How hard is it to simply require an claim ticket or photo ID?

I didnt know know about the insurance but I'll be doing that from now on.

 

[KYpatriot]

The ATF cares about furthering ATF power. They don't care about safety or keeping weapons out of the wrong hands. This is an organization that actually puts weapons into bad guy hands on purpose to further gun control aims. They are never going to help you. Do you want an ATF agent stopping gun owners at baggage claims, checking your gun case, then your id, inspecting your weapon, asking questions about its providence and your legality to own it, where you are going and whether it is legal there, etc? Because that is what you are asking for, another checkpoint for gun owners. Claim tickets don't help the ATF, arrests do.

Gun owners need to know the ATF can only hurt you. Deal with them only as you must for NFA, etc. I understand you were trying to do something good, but you are failing to consider the character and culture of that organization. You would be better off talking to the airline.

 

[KYpatriot]

Makes me Leary of flying with custom rifles and suppressors...


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Most stuff gets stolen before it even makes the baggage area. It is definitely a risk. Also, it had better be a good case with custom fitted foam the biggest risk is this:

United Breaks Guitars - YouTube

 

[SPAK]

The ATF cares about furthering ATF power. They don't care about safety or keeping weapons out of the wrong hands. This is an organization that actually puts weapons into bad guy hands on purpose to further gun control aims. They are never going to help you. Do you want an ATF agent stopping gun owners at baggage claims, checking your gun case, then your id, inspecting your weapon, asking questions about its providence and your legality to own it, where you are going and whether it is legal there, etc? Because that is what you are asking for, another checkpoint for gun owners. Claim tickets don't help the ATF, arrests do.


Gun owners need to know the ATF can only hurt you. Deal with them only as you must for NFA, etc. I understand you were trying to do something good, but you are failing to consider the character and culture of that organization. You would be better off talking to the airline.

KYpatriot,


you have valid points and I concede that it may not have been a good idea to contact the ATF.. All your points I did consider before calling...that this might just might backfire. I also considered that the ATF would find out in a manner in which a firearm was stolen which may be worse than a gun owner offering a fairly simple solution that is already in existence at other airline hubs.


I did spend 35 min going around in the endless circle of transfers with the airline waiting for them to find the appropriate person to speak to. I never did get connected with that person, and after 35 min I gave up.


My intentions are not to make life harder for gun owners, and I hope and pray that my actions do not cause it so... I will heed your advice and perhaps take a different view of the ATF. Your points are noted, and for all our sake I hope they don't happen.

 

[jbjh]

Flying with firearms beware...

Baggage containing firearms aren't tagged externally, so there is no way for baggage to segregate them. Trust me when I say you don't want "gun" marked on the outside of your bag.


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[LegioX]

Frogman.
The wife and I travel a bit and I'd say about 80% of the time we have firearms along. If we are at an airport we aren't familiar with, we station one of us at oversized baggage and one at the airlines baggage claim office. This works quite well and if it pops out at the oversized place it's no harm no foul.
If you're traveling alone, go to the oversized place first, then wait a bit. If your gun/s don't show, go to the office. Rule #1 is to think of the dumbest thing the airline can do and plan accordingly.
Rule #2 is to open your gun case right then and there and inspect for damage, preferably right at the baggage office. Don't give them bastards a leg to stand on. Alaska Airlines has treated us quite well and so far have only sent our guns to oversize once.
Also, most oversize bins are within sight of the regular baggage carousel and one can eyeball both during the process.

I also agree with KYPatriot, PLEASE don't involve the feds, they'll fuck you at the drive thru........

 

[SPAK]

Legiox good suggestions... I will keep those in mind... Another scenario that happened to a friend of mine: his plane was delayed but somehow his luggage made it to his destination along with his weapons. Fortunately his wife was available to pick them up when they arrived, but I have to wonder if they would just be sitting there if she hadn't been?

Anyway, good discussion. Lessons learned for me, leave the govt out... Check.


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[classicshooter]

I agree it is concerning, but calling the ATF was not the thing to do. In many ways I would like security to be better when it comes to firearms, but in truth labeling everything is not the wisest thing to do. Besides if you got to your destination with a missing firearm, they would turn that place up side down in a panic, and all security cameras reviewed in a heart beat.

 

[SPAK]

Flying with firearms beware...

Not justifying my call to the ATF. In hind sight I agree it was probably not wise. Here is one article of a handful I found that describes similar though not the same issues. I'm guessing the feds are probably well aware already before I called....

I found a few others involving long guns though this particular article I believe is speaking of hand guns checked inside baggage.

by JESSE JONES / KING 5 News
KTVB.COM
Posted on September 12, 2013 at 12:38 PM


SEATTLE -- When Ryan Shannon had two guns stolen from his TSA checked bags, he hoped his airline, Delta, would rush into action to help him find the missing weapons. But he left their baggage department disappointed.

“They were like, oh, well TSA took them. I'm like no, they cleared TSA. And at that point she was like, oh well, you're going to have to go online and fill out a claims form. I was like, that's it? You're just expecting me to leave after?" said Shannon.

Stunned by the airline's response, Shannon had to call Port of Seattle Police, who immediately filed a report that the guns were stolen. Two guns are missing, so what happens next? I've contacted Port of Seattle Police, TSA, the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. No agency I spoke with knows of a national protocol to handle stolen weapons at airports. Tony Anderson, a Port of Seattle Police Commander, said he’d like to see that change.

"Guns are serious, I agree completely. Theft of a gun is a critical issue and we should have some consistent practices throughout the country," explained Anderson.

Let's use Ryan's case as an example. The guns were stolen on July 21st. Port of Seattle Police said they called the police at the connecting airport in Minneapolis right away. But they said no one told them the flight originated from Flint until last week.

Commander Anderson adds, “We realized just recently that the point of origin was Flint, Michigan. Most of these thefts occur at the point of origin. That's when the most opportunity is there for a theft."

When we first called TSA, a spokesperson said Ryan's flight didn't exist. Once we proved it did, she said TSA didn't know anything about it. According to airline expert Todd Curtis, there are issues with the tracking of many hazardous items in the industry but stolen guns pose a special problem.

“They are not required to do any coordination on a national basis so it seems there's a gap here a hazard gap that's being put forth in the community,” said Curtis.

To be fair, Port of Seattle Police have aggressively investigated stolen guns at Sea-Tac. Five guns have been stolen here in three years. There have been arrests connected to three of those weapons.

For its part, the airline said, "Delta works with the passenger to ensure proper reporting of the weapon to local law enforcement officials. We partner with the local agencies and cooperate fully in their investigation in addition to conducting our own internal investigation."

Until there is a protocol known to everyone, the information about the theft of guns in airports will be as elusive as the identity of the thieves stealing the weapons in the first place. Commander Anderson said his department is making a strong effort to stop these thefts.

“We take these all very seriously. And I don't want guns out there. I'd just as soon not have them out on the street and in the hands of the owners," said Anderson.

Meanwhile, Shannon remains disillusioned with the entire system.

“I thought that we were supposed to have a sense of security in who we fly with. To me, it honestly, all this security is just so bogus. What's the point of it all?" said Shannon.




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[SPAK]

KYPATRIOT Is right though, I think most accounts of theft happen during baggage handling and not at baggage claim.


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[Maggot]

You called the ATF? Awesome. They are just as likely to issue a ruling that checking weapons should be banned entirely as they are to provide security. Asking the Feds to look into your problems is asking for trouble.

This^^^^^^^

 

[pmclaine]

Just curious,

If you are only at an airport in Chicago, DC, or New York City getting a connecting flight and you pick up your firearms what is the risk regarding possession in these "ban" localities?

Is there risk of unlawful possession?

Sad that the question even came to mind.

 

[classicshooter]

Not justifying my call to the ATF. In hind sight I agree it was probably not wise. Here is one article of a handful I found that describes similar though not the same issues. I'm guessing the feds are probably well aware already before I called....

I found a few others involving long guns though this particular article I believe is speaking of hand guns checked inside baggage.

by JESSE JONES / KING 5 News
KTVB.COM
Posted on September 12, 2013 at 12:38 PM


SEATTLE -- When Ryan Shannon had two guns stolen from his TSA checked bags, he hoped his airline, Delta, would rush into action to help him find the missing weapons. But he left their baggage department disappointed.

“They were like, oh, well TSA took them. I'm like no, they cleared TSA. And at that point she was like, oh well, you're going to have to go online and fill out a claims form. I was like, that's it? You're just expecting me to leave after?" said Shannon.

Stunned by the airline's response, Shannon had to call Port of Seattle Police, who immediately filed a report that the guns were stolen. Two guns are missing, so what happens next? I've contacted Port of Seattle Police, TSA, the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. No agency I spoke with knows of a national protocol to handle stolen weapons at airports. Tony Anderson, a Port of Seattle Police Commander, said he’d like to see that change.

"Guns are serious, I agree completely. Theft of a gun is a critical issue and we should have some consistent practices throughout the country," explained Anderson.

Let's use Ryan's case as an example. The guns were stolen on July 21st. Port of Seattle Police said they called the police at the connecting airport in Minneapolis right away. But they said no one told them the flight originated from Flint until last week.

Commander Anderson adds, “We realized just recently that the point of origin was Flint, Michigan. Most of these thefts occur at the point of origin. That's when the most opportunity is there for a theft."

When we first called TSA, a spokesperson said Ryan's flight didn't exist. Once we proved it did, she said TSA didn't know anything about it. According to airline expert Todd Curtis, there are issues with the tracking of many hazardous items in the industry but stolen guns pose a special problem.

“They are not required to do any coordination on a national basis so it seems there's a gap here a hazard gap that's being put forth in the community,” said Curtis.

To be fair, Port of Seattle Police have aggressively investigated stolen guns at Sea-Tac. Five guns have been stolen here in three years. There have been arrests connected to three of those weapons.

For its part, the airline said, "Delta works with the passenger to ensure proper reporting of the weapon to local law enforcement officials. We partner with the local agencies and cooperate fully in their investigation in addition to conducting our own internal investigation."

Until there is a protocol known to everyone, the information about the theft of guns in airports will be as elusive as the identity of the thieves stealing the weapons in the first place. Commander Anderson said his department is making a strong effort to stop these thefts.

“We take these all very seriously. And I don't want guns out there. I'd just as soon not have them out on the street and in the hands of the owners," said Anderson.

Meanwhile, Shannon remains disillusioned with the entire system.

“I thought that we were supposed to have a sense of security in who we fly with. To me, it honestly, all this security is just so bogus. What's the point of it all?" said Shannon.




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I think this case as soon as Delta told him "oh well", he should have called the police while standing at the counter, then the ATF. Maybe even worded it in such a way to suggest since the firearm was stolen, for all he knew a criminal now had a firearm at his disposal.

 

[pmclaine]

... for all he knew a criminal now had a firearm at his disposal.

Didn"t one?

 

[classicshooter]

Didn"t one?

I said it that way because since it was just missing, not sure how you would know whether it was stolen or lost.

 

[Lowlight]

Not only did you overreact your concerns are misdirected.

It happens all the time that your case will come down with the regular bags. And it's been randomly happening like that for years.

As it's been noted the majority of baggage theft happens at the point of origin behind the scenes by airport workers and not by customers picking up the bag. Ask yourself how often you have seen people not on your flight trolling the baggage claim looking to grab a bag and run? Especially a large pelican case. Seems strange you wouldn't see them. I always consider it a plus when my bag shows up with everything else. That means I don't have to wait until the very end. Here is another note, some check I.Ds some check claim tickets, others check both. Who cares.

Contacting the ATF, especially in Chicago was foolish. It only takes one over zealous agent to write a memo and start the new chain of custody rule and upset the whole system. Next thing you know, this agent looking to make a name for himself points to "X" amount of thefts at Airports and they decide, no more flying with firearms you have to FFL them to your destination.

Everyone gets so rules conscious and will blather on about your suppressor and paperwork, news flash, the Airline is not in the firearm business and you give them your stuff anyway. You forgo that whole possession thing several time in the process so why bring attention to it. It's one of those things.

It's not a regulated firearm industry, it's not a regulated firearm handle service, it's transportation and has nothing to do with the ATF. They have some basic rules with some basic safeguards, that is it. Bringing a firearm arm regulatory agency into play has the potential to turn it upside down.

You don't write the rules, you don't control the situation and you're not the airlines. Every airline and airport is different, that goes for TSA agents too. I have been cleared by TSA to fly with my gun & suppressor in one airport and stopped and held up in another on the same trip for having a suppressor. It happens. You get through and move on, you don't start a campaign to change things.

Really foolish move.

 

[MLC]

Just curious,

If you are only at an airport in Chicago, DC, or New York City getting a connecting flight and you pick up your firearms what is the risk regarding possession in these "ban" localities?

Is there risk of unlawful possession?

Sad that the question even came to mind.

Yes, people have been detained in New York.
I will not fly out of JFK or Newark with firearms.
It's not worth the risk.

I've had locks damaged and removed in transit on my firearms.
A few summers ago my long gun case was late arriving to PHL.
US Air didn't know where it was.
I found it a few baggage claims over, no locks and potato chip crumbs inside it.
That got my goat and I complained to US Air and the TSA locally.

 

[pmclaine]

I found it a few baggage claims over, no locks and potato chip crumbs inside it.
That got my goat and I complained to US Air and the TSA locally.

I had to buy some travel locks recently. I note that everything available was marked "TSA Approved"

I took that to mean that the TSA has the master combo or whatever means to access your crap without using bolt cutters. I assume everything gets gone through by the lowest common denominator.

 

[MLC]

Here is what I've learned and it's been over the course of several years so it may be a reflection of streamlining policy.
Once TSA approves the contents of a case they do not need access to the contents again.
Conventional baggage needs a TSA lock because they may need to inspect the contents after the airline counter has taken possession.
When you are checking firearms the TSA gives you the thumbs up and are done, locks go on and stay on until you get home.
YMMV
Salt Lake is a much more friendly airport for traveling with firearms than Philadelphia.
I wish that they would train the airline representatives to deal with citizens following the rules a bit more politely.

 

[Lowlight]

Not every airport checks the firearms with you present.

the opening at the counter is just a formality to drop in the tag. Some airports / airlines send the cases to TSA and they will "page you" if they need to open it. Get called back a few times and you'll rethink your locks. If you don't hear the page they will cut the locks. I guarantee if you shot the rifle the explosive alarm will sound and they will open it. The airline counter is not a check.

I have used TSA locks for many years with better than 250,000 air miles under them with no issue.

Again, you don't seem to get it, there is no standard

 

[MLC]

I guess it's just the circle I fly so I have a limited sample.

I've lost 7 TSA locks to date.
My last trip I used regular locks, SLC TSA was cake.
Philadelphia still does the magic man behind the curtain BS.

 

[Lowlight]

If you go to Nor Cal, the airport at San Fran sends the rifle down without you.

The last trip the counter warned you not to leave the area for at least 15 minutes "in case they call you".

There are others too, a single trip sampling is not a very good indication of what is out there.

if you're case can handle it, put multiple locks on, I've lost one at a time but never both. I carry a few extra. If your case can hold 4 put all four on.

 

[375fan]

You called the ATF? Awesome. They are just as likely to issue a ruling that checking weapons should be banned entirely as they are to provide security. Asking the Feds to look into your problems is asking for trouble.

The feds are the problem, no common sense, they are like the 3 stooges.

 

[SPAK]

The feds are the problem, no common sense, they are like the 3 stooges.

Apparently so am I....

 

[former naval person]

Shovelstroked has it...insure it for all it is worth. The airlines own it then and give it special handling.

 

[KYpatriot]

Apparently so am I....

Don't worry about it ... What saves all of us is that usually bureaucracy and red tape cause so much inertia that usually no action is taken. Will Rogers was once in a conversation where someone complained about the cost of government. His response was "be thankful we aren't getting all the government we are paying for!"

Amen.

 

[knockemdown]

I've been flying in/out of NYC area airports for 15yrs, never experienced any problems.
I use a Pelican case, with double NON-TSA Master locks on it.
Outbound, after Port Authority Police inspects my case at check-in, I lock it and we both escort it to TSA for final screening. No one, other than myself, has the key to those locks. I only leave my case after TSA signs off on it, as cleared. It goes right on the plane, from that back area, far as I know.

When I arrive at my destination, first thing I do is go to Baggage Services and ask where firearms cases are released. Usually, it comes out @ Oversized pickup, with skis, golf bags, etc. Sometimes it comes out on the regular carousel. Sometimes, I need to claim it @ Baggage Services, with ID. That part is different, everywhere.

I make damn sure to get my azz off that plane quick and get to Baggage Services to make it known to them that I'm expecting a firearms case. I'd rather have them looking for it, straight away. Heaven forbid there was some issue in transit, I won't be sitting around not knowing where to look next...

 

[Lowlight]

The TSA is not a "Some One" they are an agency, so using TSA Locks does not give your key to "some one" else.

You give your case to the Airline, they have baggage handlers, they take "possession" of your rifle, so why do you think that is something you can control. It's a non-issue, and people acting like they are being ultra secure are being foolish. As if.

As I stated, there is no standard and in other airports, you have no control over how your rifle is handled. If the airline sends it downstair or in another room for TSA to screen it, how the heck are you gonna make sure you lock it in their presence ? You can't, you lock it, and if they have to get in, they will call you back through security to unlock it, if you don't answer they will cut your locks. This I promise you. I believe Pensacola sends it to another place without you too... that is the closest airport to K&M.

 

[FS1]

Flew in from Albany once coming back from Vermont. Got home and there was a note inside my bag saying for security reasons your bag has been inspected by the TSA. My wife had bought 2 jars of maple syrup shaped like maple leaves. Only one was there. I guess the other one must have been subversive and was promptly secured by the TSA. The TSA apparently has thieves working for it no doubt. I guess it is just the way things are now. When I called they sent me a 3-4 page form to fill out about the theft. I said screw that and let it slide.

But this brings me to my point. I always take small wire tie wraps and put one in the same hole as the lock or another hole if there is one. If they want to check my bag they can cut it off. This tells me my bag has been opened, if so I check it right there and then. Another advantage is thieves may know the TSA lock code, but they may not have dikes on them to cut it with. Thus they move on to lower hanging fruit.

Just an Idea to help secure your firearms.

 

[Lowlight]

TSA Locks are Key'd not coded. That ring is pretty tightly controlled, you are not gonna prevent someone determined to steal a firearm and in most cases, especially with a long gun, getting out of the airport unseen is gonna be a chore.

If the TSA is the Thief there is nothing you can do about it, he can do whatever he wants prior to the case ever hitting the plane.

Twisting the issue and playing "What if" does not change any of that, they can cut your locks, they can open your stuff, and they do at any time between the counter and the plane.

I flew every single month for long time back and forth to TX, I carried pistols, suppressors, rifles, etc just about every month. Plenty of times my stuff was opened, they put in the tag saying so and pop a sticker on your tag saying they did it. More than once my bags never made it to my destination until hours, once even days later, including a rifle case. It's a non-issue, and something out of your control. They either return it or they don't.

Scaring yourself into thinking the world is out to rob you does not change a single thing.

 

[knockemdown]

Like I said, never had an issue going or coming.

Flown prolly 20-30x out of NYC area and always carried my own case into TSA inspection, with Port Authority police escort. Always present for every TSA screening, and I prefer it that way, so there is no need to get called back over public address from the gate, lol. That has happened elsewhere, but not in NYC area.
After being cleared, I sign the declaration and put it inside my own case. Then, I lock my own case, leave, and head to the gate. Complete non-issue. If anything, NYC area has been the most consistent in their procedure. Least in my experience...

 

[Lowlight]

Denver is the same way, but that doesn't mean your destination is that way, D'uh.

They escort you you to the TSA screening area in DIA, but if you fly to different locations in the country you cannot expect the same thing to happen. How thick do you have to be to not understand this?

As I noted, San Fran, Pensacola, it might have been Phoenix, or Vegas I forget, but there are other airports you don't get to see them inspect your firearm.

 

[FS1]

I guess a good question would be who or how many have ever lost (permanently) a firearm while flying?

 

[knockemdown]

How thick do you have to be to not understand this?

How thick do you have to be to NOT understand that I'm sharing my experience in agreeance with you?

 

[classicshooter]

As I noted, San Fran, Pensacola, it might have been Phoenix, or Vegas I forget, but there are other airports you don't get to see them inspect your firearm.

Flying out of Norfolk they tried to tell me this. I insisted that I was with the firearm while being inspected. After much debate about this a supervisor came over to see what "my issue" was. To my pleasure he was a bit confused why I would not be with the firearm. As per the TSA agent/supervisor that sided with me, it is their job to ensure it is in a condition that is safe for transportation (i.e. not loaded), after that they just want to make sure that the proper securing device (the required locks) is placed on the case/container (in my case it was pelican case), and their job is done. Personally when I flew out of Pensacola they looked at everything right their in front of me like it was ops normal, then the case was locked up and sent on its way. So from what my experience has been, it depends who you are dealing with, but I will always insist on being present while they are being inspected.