Advanced Marksmanship follow up after shot

[herren2006]

yesterday at the range. i was shooting my new remington 700 sps at the range. i was trying to follow up or follow through with the shot. after each shot i had no picture of the target. on the other hand i did shoot under half inch groups after the barrel breakin. i have read alot in basic marksmanship about the follow through by keeping your eye on the target during the shot. will this be a problem later on at farther distances? do any of you have this same problem? or should i just keep shooting?

 

[Topstrap]

Re: follow up after shot

I can see why the tactical types want to be on target for a quick follow up but if you are just shooting long range for competition or hunting then I don't think that is as important as getting perfect releases and hitting your target with your first shot. I've never seen a hit on a target with my lil gun but know that if it was perfect when it went off I fully expect to hear that clang.

It would be nice to be able to see your own misses or hits which some are able to do but I've never been able to see mine either way so it's not something I've ever worried about for what I use my guns for.

One habit I've seen some do at our long range plate matches shooting at the further targets (800 and 900 yard) is they shoot then look up to see if it's a hit. Even though my gun jumps around I'm still staring straight thru where my scope was when it went off and allowing it to follow thru as consistant as possible.

Topstrap

 

[herren2006]

Re: follow up after shot

thanks for the info topstrap. at least i know im not doing anything wrong. i knew everything was right when i squeezed off every round but i was hoping to still have a target picture in the scope.

 

[JCH]

Re: follow up after shot

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sps remytactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks for the info topstrap. at least i know im not doing anything wrong. i knew everything was right when i squeezed off every round but i was hoping to still have a target picture in the scope.</div></div>

Actually you might want to have another shooter watch you shoot and look at your postition. It is possible to sight hits with the proper form. I was much like you wondering why i couldn't see the hit...I had a MUCH more experienced shooter show me what i was doing wrong by going prone in my driveway.

 

[herren2006]

Re: follow up after shot

i dont know if it makes a differance but i was shooting from a bench and not prone. the gun was jumping to the left after each shot but still shooting groups. i was at a wma range in heflin or fruithurst al rather. choccolocco shooting range i think is what it is called.

 

[Rifles Only]

Re: follow up after shot

bipod hop is an unnatural condition. It is caused by either poor trigger control or poor body position. Shooting well for one shot is great, but if you cannot follow the bullet downrange, you are simply ignoring half of the overall sequence of fire.
First of all, this discipline is not about groups. If your groups are great, good for you. However, you should try to be able to hit your target in any usable range on the first or second shot.
There is no guarantee your first shot will hit. If you are not seeing the result of your shot downrange, then you have no information on what to do next.

On the other hand, driving the rifle correctly allows you to see the direction and distance of your miss so you can follow up with corrections made off of what you see as it relates to the reticle. The difference between good shooters and great shooters is how they handle the miss and what they do to make instantaneous corrections. If you are a shooter that "doesn't miss" then you aren't shooting enough.

During competition, seeing your shot allows for you to get a second round hit.
Seeing your shot while hunting will allow you to determine if another round is needed because the first one was poorly placed.

It helps in other arenas as well.

The rifle firing has action. The bullet goes one way and recoil goes the opposite way. If you are getting horizontal movement you need to control the rifle better.

 

[herren2006]

Re: follow up after shot

If you are not seeing the result of your shot downrange, then you have no information on what to do next.

you are exactly right. i am gettin horizontal movement during the shot. i was shooting with bipod on shooting bench with sandbag under the rear. it would always recoil to the left.

 

[CoryT]

Re: follow up after shot

Start with natural point of aim. The rifle will tend to move toward that neutral position. You need to get squared up behind the rifle, placing as much of your body mass in line with the barrel as possible. Combine proper position behind the gun with a slight forward load on the bipod and proper trigger control and the rifle should recoil straight back and return to the starting position.

A test I use in class is a "5 dot drill", where 5 1" dots are spaced out on an 8.5x11 sheet of paper in the same pattern as the 5 side of a die. Starting on target and ready to fire, a bolt gunner should be able to hit all 5 dots from 100 yards in 20 seconds or less. If your position and trigger control is poor, even a semi auto will be challenged at a 10 second limit.

Proper follow through is an integral part of a well executed shot, a poor position will make proper follow through difficult. Poor position will also make proper trigger control virtually impossible to achieve consistently. Follow up shots will be near impossible to execute in a usable time frame.

There is no good substitute for a qualified coach. I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who show up for class, "Oh, I've been shooting for XX years...", learned all on their own, etc, etc, and are shocked at what they don't know. While we can define the essential aspects of a well executed shot pretty simply, "Align the sights on the target, press the trigger so as to fire the shot without disturbing that alignment", actually doing it is filled with a lot of very small details. A good coach can make all the differance.

 

[herren2006]

Re: follow up after shot

coryt you just made me realize one thing i wasnt doing. i am not preloading the bipod. im pretty much squared up with last three fingers gripping firmly on stock and holding butt of stock in shoulder socket. im following through its just the recoil of the gun makes it bounce to the left and then i have no sight picture of the target. i have been watching guys shoot on the internet and they have the straight back motion during fire and return forward to starting position. maybe i just need practice. would a heavier stock make controlling the rifle easier during recoil? my reason for asking is that the stock i have which is factory is really light.

 

[Rifles Only]

Re: follow up after shot

good advice on the 5 dots drill...



Weight isn't the issue. Proper position is

 

[NY700]

Re: follow up after shot

Jacob, I have a similar problem, I'm preloading the bipod and feel that I have a solid natural position but on recoil the rifle goes left. Am I loading my weight on an angle and if so is it to the right causing the rebound left? Thanks

 

[herren2006]

Re: follow up after shot

thanks for all the advice guys. im gonna try and shoot some this week after work and see what happens.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: follow up after shot

RO,

If I read your post correctly, you are saying the rifle should move STRAIGHT back. No muzzle "jump" at all. Am I correct?

-Chris

 

[Lowlight]

Re: follow up after shot

Here are some videos where you can clearly see the muzzle moving in a straight line.

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<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VjG1JZxiui0&feature=related"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VjG1JZxiui0&feature=related" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: follow up after shot

SnipersHide God,

I hate to do this because I know what's coming, but I need to know. With a heavy recoiling rifle, still no jump? What about a really heavy recoiling rifle?

I'll take your word for it either way.
-Chris

 

[Lowlight]

Re: follow up after shot

Still no jump,

We do the online training lessons with a 300WM, is that heavy recoiling enough, including shots from alternate positions and you can still spot your own shots and not lose sight of the target.

There is no substitute for doing it correctly.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: follow up after shot

There are five factors to a steady position. These factors describe how the shooter controls the gun from a stable platform. When these factors are consistently applied, until the bullet exits the barrel, recoil is consistent too; and divergent angularity of the bore from shot to shot is minimized. If the position is consistent to a really molecular level, good shooting to as far as the bullet is stable will be possible.

Most folks, it appears, do not have an interest in perfecting their position to a molecular level from shot to shot. There certainly would be more High Master LR shooters out there if folks realized just how important perfecting the position is to the best LR or small-bore prone shooting.

It seems most folks are only interested in perfecting their equipment and ammunition. They've never considered that good shooting could be about mental resolve.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: follow up after shot

Okay, last questions and I'll let this dead horse lay. Does magnification or distance make any difference? Based on the video's it doesn't look like it.

-Chris

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: follow up after shot

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are five factors to a steady position. These factors describe how the shooter controls the gun from a stable platform. When these factors are consistently applied, until the bullet exits the barrel, recoil is consistent too; and divergent angularity of the bore from shot to shot is minimized. If the position is consistent to a really molecular level, good shooting to as far as the bullet is stable will be possible.

Most folks, it appears, do not have an interest in perfecting their position to a molecular level from shot to shot. There certainly would be more High Master LR shooters out there if folks realized just how important perfecting the position is to the best LR or small-bore prone shooting.

It seems most folks are only interested in perfecting their equipment and ammunition. They've never considered that good shooting could be about mental resolve. </div></div>

Sterling,

I appreciate your input. But I disagree with you 100%. The very reason for someone posting in the Advanced Marksmanship section, as opposed to the Rifle section, is to gain insight that can be used to build mental resolve.

-Chris

 

[Lowlight]

Re: follow up after shot

A lot of people attempt to solve shooting problems with equipment on this site... its very rampant and why this forum section doesn't have half the activity of the others.

very few understand the fundamentals of marksmanship or are willing to put in the time to learn them properly. Instead they want a flatter shooting bullet and something to cheat the wind, hoping to solve an error in execution through better equipment. They think a $3000 scope will help, or a new bullet with better BC, or a certain length barrel, when its really about the nut behind the bolt more often then not.

I have to agree with him.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: follow up after shot

my Windrunner doesn't hop .50DTC pretty stout recoil. Makes your head vibrate and raises a lot of dust but it does not hop just a push straight back

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: follow up after shot

I agree. But I took Sterling's post personal... Perhaps that was my mistake. And I do appreciate his input. A lot. What I should have said was I am posting in this section because I desire help with my fundamentals.

Humbly,
-Chris

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: follow up after shot

Now that's a good example! Thanks for the input.

-Chris

 

[TCA4570]

Re: follow up after shot

Practicing shooting, or cleaning?
Some have rifle cal hand.
Pistol barrels are under 18 inch.
Extreme scope eye possible.

 

[Long_Action]

Re: follow up after shot

My 50bmg windrunner is the only rifle I have that is not in any way shape of form like a typical sniper rifle. I cant preload the bipod.... the recoil pushes me a few inches back on my mat... I also have another mat under the break but sand falls off berms 20ft away.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: follow up after shot

I have become accustom to placing 3 fingers between my forehead and scope to check for clearance after I get my NPA. This is enough distance to keep the scope from tattooing my eyebrow.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: follow up after shot

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree. But I took Sterling's post personal... Perhaps that was my mistake. And I do appreciate his input. A lot. What I should have said was I am posting in this section because I desire help with my fundamentals.

Humbly,
-Chris</div></div>

I did not mean to rattle your cage. I see folks, seeking to become extraordinary marksmen, thwarted in their quest by previous acceptance of faulty shooting theory, like the kind promoted by gun rag advertisers who want you to believe their product will make you a better shot. This makes getting off to a good start more difficult than it needs to be, as what's really important to good shooting is simply drowned out by loud advertisers.

I like this forum since, indeed, there are folks here who really do know how to do it, like Lowlight; and, they have very good advice. They seem to enjoy sharing their discoveries. What a deal.

 

[herren2006]

Re: follow up after shot

+1 on that

 

[IsleofGough]

Re: follow up after shot

the recommendation for a qualified coach is good. I wonder how this can be taught online. If as the op said, the groups are good but rifle scope view is off to right or left afterwards, saying get directly behind the rifle and keep control probably will not be very helpful, nor will showing that more skilled shooters can do it.

 

[Target In Sight]

Re: follow up after shot

Have you visited Here ?

I am one (out of many) example that it "CAN" be taught online.

I agree with you that it is a bit hard for many to understand by just the wording of "getting straight behind the rifle", but if you sign on to the online training, there are videos, and a couple of thread where LL draw pictures to help understand the positional relationship between shooter's body and the gun.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: follow up after shot

Well when you consider how many people are signed up and the repeated success stories we have had... I think your conclusions are based on the fact you haven't enjoyed my answers to your questions in the past and have nothing to about the quality of the Online Training or how things are broken down to explain them in a way that is easily understood.

We preface every lesson with:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These lessons are not intended to replace quality instruction from a competent instructor in a formal setting. There are too many small items that need to be addressed in order for this to be done correctly and without thought. Being able to accomplish the correct shooting form without thought absolutely requires perfect practice over and over until the correct neural pathways have been established. Muscle memory does not come overnight and if it is not done correctly time and time again, you will revert back to the incorrect form under stress. </div></div>

As we are not looking to replace any quality one on one instruction by saying we can do the same with the online instruction. However the results are undeniable, as they give a shooter a foundation to work with, as well as show them what they should expect from an instructor.

We also offer the full price of the online training towards a class at Rifles Only, so while you are spending money, $10 a month for the online training, 100% can be used towards a real class.

Why pay someone to just let you go out and shoot.

Sour grapes not withstanding, its pretty fair to say, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[kennisondan]

Re: follow up after shot

Hey guys : must just add that I had forgotten how much I enjoy and benefit from being online here..
I will check into the class myself, though I am not very good I am one of those who just loves to shoot and to shoot well is to enjoy it more.. hitting the target at the aimed at point is everything to me. Just want to say thanks to all for an unexpected additional benefit of reading here.. I have been away and was not that keyed into the class and the application of fees to the rifles only class.
that is really super. glad to be back here, to learn more.
thanks
dk

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: follow up after shot

The adage that PRACTICE makes PERFECT is not applicable to precision rifle shooting. People spend lifetimes practicing bad habits without ever learning the fundamentals.

The best students I have ever taught are those that have no idea what they are doing and ADMIT it. When they are motivated to LEARN proper technique its amazing how fast they advance.

PROPER PRACTICE makes perfect.The need to take professional instruction cannot be overstated. Having a coach watching you shoot is very important but don't discount the value of online training.