Trying to decide if I want to send in my form 4 as an individual or set up a trust. Sorry if this has been discussed before, tried a search but nothing that came up answered my question. I live in an area where some of the local politics can be a bit racially motivated at times. What are the downsides of doing it on a trust? I realize that doing it as a corporation requires some annual corporation "maintenance" taxes, which I'd like to avoid if possible. Is there something similar with a trust?
Suppressors Form 4: Individual or Trust?
- Thread starter johngfoster
- Start date
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
Nope, no taxes or any other down sides to a trust. Simple and you don't have to get LEO signatures every time you want a new toy.
Nope, no taxes or any other down sides to a trust. Simple and you don't have to get LEO signatures every time you want a new toy.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
Agreed and in addition, a Trust DOES NOT require finger prints and a picture of your mug. The only way to go in my opinion. Pretty simple.
Agreed and in addition, a Trust DOES NOT require finger prints and a picture of your mug. The only way to go in my opinion. Pretty simple.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
what is a good source to read up on trusts?...what they are, how to do it, etc.
what is a good source to read up on trusts?...what they are, how to do it, etc.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: veezer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is a good source to read up on trusts?...what they are, how to do it, etc.</div></div>
Search here for "trust" and you'll get lots of info
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: veezer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is a good source to read up on trusts?...what they are, how to do it, etc.</div></div>
Search here for "trust" and you'll get lots of info
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
I know that Dave at One Shot Firearms in Wenatchee will help you set up the trust in-house if you are buying a suppressor from him.It makes a lot of sense as a happy customer is a repeat customer.Why not see if your dealer will help you out?It is to his benefit in the long run.
I know that Dave at One Shot Firearms in Wenatchee will help you set up the trust in-house if you are buying a suppressor from him.It makes a lot of sense as a happy customer is a repeat customer.Why not see if your dealer will help you out?It is to his benefit in the long run.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
I found a sample trust here:
http://marylandshooter.com/ar15/sampleTrust.doc
Edited it in MS Word. Will probably try to have a lawyer friend review it before I notarize it.
I found a sample trust here:
http://marylandshooter.com/ar15/sampleTrust.doc
Edited it in MS Word. Will probably try to have a lawyer friend review it before I notarize it.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
+1 for the trust route. But a word of advice. Take the time and get with a good local attorney and have him/her do the trust for you. There are horror stories out there of people who have had the AFT come and take all their stuff because the trust was not properly set up( each state is slightly different). After you have it set up it is SOOOO much better that an individual transfer.
+1 for the trust route. But a word of advice. Take the time and get with a good local attorney and have him/her do the trust for you. There are horror stories out there of people who have had the AFT come and take all their stuff because the trust was not properly set up( each state is slightly different). After you have it set up it is SOOOO much better that an individual transfer.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Duey1267</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 for the trust route. But a word of advice. Take the time and get with a good local attorney and have him/her do the trust for you. There are horror stories out there of people who have had the AFT come and take all their stuff because the trust was not properly set up( each state is slightly different). After you have it set up it is SOOOO much better that an individual transfer.</div></div>
Apparently, there was a post on subguns.com alleging an incident where an improperly set up trust resulted in a seizure. The post was moderated out because the source appeared dubious. Since, then some trust lawyers have been reporting the incident all over the Internet.
Honestly, I am not a lawyer. I hate lawyers, so I am biased, but I don't feel like there is anything to this claim. If you are using one of the hundreds of revocable trusts out there, be sure to double and triple check it and understand the difference between a trustee, grantor, beneficiary. If you don't understand these terms, you should probably get a lawyer. They will be happy to take your $500 and use a trust template that is available either free over the Internet, or for a nominal fee $50 or so.
Not to say that there aren't better trusts out there, but I don't need something that is airtight to cover all scenarios where I die or am incapacitated (good reasons to have a real living trust).
Again, I am not a lawyer, don't believe a word I say. Actually, I don't know if I would believe a word that a lawyer would say, anyway.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Duey1267</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 for the trust route. But a word of advice. Take the time and get with a good local attorney and have him/her do the trust for you. There are horror stories out there of people who have had the AFT come and take all their stuff because the trust was not properly set up( each state is slightly different). After you have it set up it is SOOOO much better that an individual transfer.</div></div>
Apparently, there was a post on subguns.com alleging an incident where an improperly set up trust resulted in a seizure. The post was moderated out because the source appeared dubious. Since, then some trust lawyers have been reporting the incident all over the Internet.
Honestly, I am not a lawyer. I hate lawyers, so I am biased, but I don't feel like there is anything to this claim. If you are using one of the hundreds of revocable trusts out there, be sure to double and triple check it and understand the difference between a trustee, grantor, beneficiary. If you don't understand these terms, you should probably get a lawyer. They will be happy to take your $500 and use a trust template that is available either free over the Internet, or for a nominal fee $50 or so.
Not to say that there aren't better trusts out there, but I don't need something that is airtight to cover all scenarios where I die or am incapacitated (good reasons to have a real living trust).
Again, I am not a lawyer, don't believe a word I say. Actually, I don't know if I would believe a word that a lawyer would say, anyway.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
Carter, I tend to agree with you and I too am skeptical of this claim. Use a trust version that is known to work and that should minimize worries.
Carter, I tend to agree with you and I too am skeptical of this claim. Use a trust version that is known to work and that should minimize worries.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
I agree as well. After reading all of the horror stories, I realized the common thread is they were authored by the trust attorneys.
Personally, I wrote one off quicken, and then sent a copy to a local probate attorney to have a look. He suggested a couple of changes, and then charged me about $100 - far better than if he stared from stratch. It's worth it to me to have the atty's advice prior to sending, and the $100 was well spent.
Good luck on your choice.
I agree as well. After reading all of the horror stories, I realized the common thread is they were authored by the trust attorneys.
Personally, I wrote one off quicken, and then sent a copy to a local probate attorney to have a look. He suggested a couple of changes, and then charged me about $100 - far better than if he stared from stratch. It's worth it to me to have the atty's advice prior to sending, and the $100 was well spent.
Good luck on your choice.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
IMO, if you can get a signature easily, do it.
I have 2 silencers on individual form 4s. I bought them before doing trusts became common, but if I had to go back, I would do them the same way.
An individual transfer is the least amount of paperwork, period. There is no way to do it "wrong" and there is no need to see a lawyer or use quickbooks or whatever.
Now that being said, I'm lucky in that my local chief of police turns around a F4 overnight and the dept does my fingerprints for free.
IMO, if you can get a signature easily, do it.
I have 2 silencers on individual form 4s. I bought them before doing trusts became common, but if I had to go back, I would do them the same way.
An individual transfer is the least amount of paperwork, period. There is no way to do it "wrong" and there is no need to see a lawyer or use quickbooks or whatever.
Now that being said, I'm lucky in that my local chief of police turns around a F4 overnight and the dept does my fingerprints for free.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
i as well agree. i have a trust.
i as well agree. i have a trust.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
I wouldn't go the trust route for a machine gun, why, because you die the trust becomes irrevocable, MG go up in value, some 100% every ten yrs, indiv can leave it to whomever and so on, this is not the case with trust, once the person you leave it to dies or whatever that person cannot leave to there hiers, because the trust cannot be changed
I wouldn't go the trust route for a machine gun, why, because you die the trust becomes irrevocable, MG go up in value, some 100% every ten yrs, indiv can leave it to whomever and so on, this is not the case with trust, once the person you leave it to dies or whatever that person cannot leave to there hiers, because the trust cannot be changed
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't go the trust route for a machine gun, why, because you die the trust becomes irrevocable, MG go up in value, some 100% every ten yrs, indiv can leave it to whomever and so on, this is not the case with trust, once the person you leave it to dies or whatever that person cannot leave to there hiers, because the trust cannot be changed </div></div>
That is just incorrect on so many levels........
Even if the item is in a trust it can be sold, that is what the trustee's are for. Once the items are transferred out of the trust it is the same as if an individual transferred it........upon the death of the trustee's the items are disbursed as directed by the trust. Once disbursed the items become the property of the new owner same as if it was transferred by an individual.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't go the trust route for a machine gun, why, because you die the trust becomes irrevocable, MG go up in value, some 100% every ten yrs, indiv can leave it to whomever and so on, this is not the case with trust, once the person you leave it to dies or whatever that person cannot leave to there hiers, because the trust cannot be changed </div></div>
That is just incorrect on so many levels........
Even if the item is in a trust it can be sold, that is what the trustee's are for. Once the items are transferred out of the trust it is the same as if an individual transferred it........upon the death of the trustee's the items are disbursed as directed by the trust. Once disbursed the items become the property of the new owner same as if it was transferred by an individual.
Re: Form 4: Individual or Trust?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't go the trust route for a machine gun, why, because you die the trust becomes irrevocable, MG go up in value, some 100% every ten yrs, indiv can leave it to whomever and so on, this is not the case with trust, once the person you leave it to dies or whatever that person cannot leave to there hiers, because the trust cannot be changed </div></div>
That is just incorrect on so many levels........
Even if the item is in a trust it can be sold, that is what the trustee's are for. Once the items are transferred out of the trust it is the same as if an individual transferred it........upon the death of the trustee's the items are disbursed as directed by the trust. Once disbursed the items become the property of the new owner same as if it was transferred by an individual. </div></div>
You are dead on, the fact is a Trust keeps the NFA item out of probate, contrary to 427COBRA's post. If an individual buys an NFA item and dies, they can will it to their heir, but it will go into probate. If it is purchased via a Trust, ownership transfers per the Trust to whomever is designated.
The best way to utilize a Trust, is to go via an attorney since the Legal Zoom and Quicken versions are not meant for NFA items. Most issues that I have read are from folks who downloaded one of these, and had them refused by ATF because they lacked specific details for the NFA.
Here is a good website for information, you can even email questions and get a quick response.
www.guntrustlawyer.com
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't go the trust route for a machine gun, why, because you die the trust becomes irrevocable, MG go up in value, some 100% every ten yrs, indiv can leave it to whomever and so on, this is not the case with trust, once the person you leave it to dies or whatever that person cannot leave to there hiers, because the trust cannot be changed </div></div>
That is just incorrect on so many levels........
Even if the item is in a trust it can be sold, that is what the trustee's are for. Once the items are transferred out of the trust it is the same as if an individual transferred it........upon the death of the trustee's the items are disbursed as directed by the trust. Once disbursed the items become the property of the new owner same as if it was transferred by an individual. </div></div>
You are dead on, the fact is a Trust keeps the NFA item out of probate, contrary to 427COBRA's post. If an individual buys an NFA item and dies, they can will it to their heir, but it will go into probate. If it is purchased via a Trust, ownership transfers per the Trust to whomever is designated.
The best way to utilize a Trust, is to go via an attorney since the Legal Zoom and Quicken versions are not meant for NFA items. Most issues that I have read are from folks who downloaded one of these, and had them refused by ATF because they lacked specific details for the NFA.
Here is a good website for information, you can even email questions and get a quick response.
www.guntrustlawyer.com
