Freezing rifle test - Garand Thumb

[powerspc]

I’d be more focused on what kinds of boots, socks, base layer, quick-don/doff mid layers, fleece, outer layer shells, glove types, balaclavas, and hats you’re wearing.

For shooting in real extreme cold, you need to figure out what kinds of gloves you’ll be using that allow trigger finger manipulation. I’ve tried all kinds of hunter’s mittens, usually worn over my Nomex.

I also run regular winter DM and LR courses in the mountains here in Utah, and have seen more corrosion issues on steel fasteners in scope rings and handguard fasteners on AR-10s and AR-15s. Hasn’t affected performance, but just looks nasty. I like my fastener heads Cerakoted for that reason. I’ve noticed that whatever NightForce uses on their fasteners, at least on my Unimount, doesn’t seem to suffer the same effects as most other scope mounts. These are quirks that most manufacturers would never think of or see in their testing.

I also had one guy shear his bolt handle off his TRG in .308 in Feb, 2015, which was interesting. I had a loaner rifle for him in .308 provided by another hide member.

Winter in the mountains in UT isn’t as cold as it gets in Finland unless you get wind chill, but you still have the sun. Whatever sunlight that made it through the clouds from maybe 0930-1630 in Finland is gone the rest of the “day” in the sub arctic.

You guys that live up in Alaska and Canada know what that’s all about. Some of the Wyoming, Wisconsin, and Minnesota folks see pretty bad low temps as well.

Anytime we get snow in Utah, I just tell people that are shivering, “Tis a nice spring day in Finland."

I'd be very interested in your recommendation(s) for cold weather gloves/mittens for shooting. I shoot year round where I am which means sub-zero in the winter months. Thanks!

 

[rlsmith1]

@LRRPF52 I'm also interested in which LPKs and upper parts you would recommend that are built to these standards. I thought I read somewhere that someone had issues with RRA LPKs which I was surprised by as they sell to LEO quite a bit. I'm not into metallurgy much but I know enough to appreciate there is a difference in parts. Any BCGs you recommend to use or stay away from?



As for the play scientist and clicks rather than science, it's what this guy does for a living. I watch most of his videos and he covers a lot, some of it with an expert background and some of it not so much. I don't think he claims to be doing anything perfectly and if anything this was meant to be an Americanized version of the Kalashnikov Group's testing on rifles, not a true science experiment. He's also put the above video in the same "Science" playlist as the video below

 

[Shawn1492]

@LRRPF52 it would be really cool if you could get together with Garand Thumb and make a video about proper weapons maintenance and care for cold weather. Maybe include some layering and glove recommendations. Half his videos are really informative and high quality. Sounds like your knowledge and experience would be great with his video production quality.

 

[Isaiah's Blacksmith]

@LRRPF52 is the closest thing we have to anybody that walked out of Chosin. The video is useful. He states why at the end. Don't fall in the water with your rifle in freezing temps. And to wear in layers or you will die.

 

[RUTGERS95]

@LRRPF52 I'm also interested in which LPKs and upper parts you would recommend that are built to these standards. I thought I read somewhere that someone had issues with RRA LPKs which I was surprised by as they sell to LEO quite a bit. I'm not into metallurgy much but I know enough to appreciate there is a difference in parts. Any BCGs you recommend to use or stay away from?



As for the play scientist and clicks rather than science, it's what this guy does for a living. I watch most of his videos and he covers a lot, some of it with an expert background and some of it not so much. I don't think he claims to be doing anything perfectly and if anything this was meant to be an Americanized version of the Kalashnikov Group's testing on rifles, not a true science experiment. He's also put the above video in the same "Science" playlist as the video below

respectfully, selling to leo means absolutely nothing and I'd not use that as a marker for anything

LPK; Colt, FN, DD are all made to spec. Dare I say, I believe the Aero lpk is as well however, I cannot confirm the springs but in reality, you can go to several sites and pick each piece to a lpk that would be colt, fn etc for mil spec'd parts

I too would love his input on specific gear

 

[Isaiah's Blacksmith]

I like my pair of Canadian mortar gloves.

 

[jzerfoss]

Garandthumb youtube channel isn't for anything other than entertainment so why take it so seriously....? Anyone trying to do a serious test of this type would use realistic scenario or an extreme version of a realistic scenario. He's obviously not doing that for the entertainment value. His stuff is fun to watch so I hope he doesn't change a thing.

 

[Isaiah's Blacksmith]

Garandthumb youtube channel isn't for anything other than entertainment so why take it so seriously....? Anyone trying to do a serious test of this type would use realistic scenario or an extreme version of a realistic scenario. He's obviously not doing that for the entertainment value. His stuff is fun to watch so I hope he doesn't change a thing.

Because it is the Internet and some people think he is being serious. Because he is or was a USAF winter survival school instructor. Though he keeps that out of the picture. In fact, nobody is sure what this guy's background might be. But if he was or is a USAF winter survival school instructor I can tell you based on experience that he is an asshole in real life. "Uh, I wouldn't spend the night so close to that shithole it will attract mice." "Nobody has taken a shit in five days so I will take my chances". Fucking lifers.

 

[rlsmith1]

respectfully, selling to leo means absolutely nothing and I'd not use that as a marker for anything

LPK; Colt, FN, DD are all made to spec. Dare I say, I believe the Aero lpk is as well however, I cannot confirm the springs but in reality, you can go to several sites and pick each piece to a lpk that would be colt, fn etc for mil spec'd parts

I too would love his input on specific gear

The more you know! Those are names I'll definetly be using from now on. I give my DD fanboy buddy a hard time but I guess I may own a few more DD parts in the future!

 

[Jakobepally]

This video make me glad to live in TX where we get 2 days of winter.

 

[RUTGERS95]

The more you know! Those are names I'll definetly be using from now on. I give my DD fanboy buddy a hard time but I guess I may own a few more DD parts in the future!

well I do think DD is overrated to a degree however, if buying parts, I'd stick to Colt as it's a proven winner. Where cost and availability become a factor, FN then DD then Aero is how I'd play it. The thing to remember as well is that those severe conditions may never to come to play for you so plan accordingly. I'll say that 99% of the time I only use the afore mentioned parts. My sons and I did build their first ARs using Anderson parts for their first rifles and they function very well.

 

[renegadearms]

Some of the others have already posted about Arctic stuff but I know also when I was stationed in Fairbanks, Ak we also used a different lube and cleaner than CLP, we used LAW which I believe stands for Lubricant Arctic Weapon. It works really well, I still have a Gatorade bottle of it on my work bench.

 

[Superjet]

With the imminent threat of Climate Change he should be testing weapons above 150°, that is the info we need.

 

[rlsmith1]

It’s windy and 10F right now headed to -13F before the weekend so 150F seems a long way off. Until it’s August and 101F!!

 

[Frank Green]

I’ve spent many years shooting in the sub-arctic and Arctic with the Finns from 2005-2016, doing high-volume, multi-day courses in far colder conditions than that nice spring day in the video. Every time I flew back to the US in the dead of winter from up there, as we broke through the clouds landing in CO or UT, it would be the first time I had seen the sun since leaving the US. I was there for a whole year from 2005-2006, then went back 3-4 times per year up until 2016.

For some reason, every multi-day course in the winter we did was around -30˚C (-22˚F) as the norm. I never saw the ground in the winter, just ice and snow piled up pretty high on any of the range complexes we used, as well as into the forest for overnight treks on skis with rucks.

Totally awesome seeing the Suomi M31 subgun pictured above in your post! They are heavy for a subgun but built back in a different era. Shoot very nicely! Did you get a chance to put some rounds thru one?

Read all your posts/write ups you did. Very nice!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[ArchibaldShoebuckle275]

Some of the others have already posted about Arctic stuff but I know also when I was stationed in Fairbanks, Ak we also used a different lube and cleaner than CLP, we used LAW which I believe stands for Lubricant Arctic Weapon. It works really well, I still have a Gatorade bottle of it on my work bench.

Lubrication definitely a big deal. I’ve never been in Arctic conditions but had a pretty serious mishap in Yakima, WA when we did a live fire in a blizzard. The battalion armorer had advised we use ATF fluid to lube our 240s and it was horrible as the guns slowly binded up. You could hear the rate of the fire slow down gradually and then the bolt would bind to the chamber, and we had to kick start the guns, eventually only firing one shot at a time. When we opened the guns up after the debacle we found that the ATF had just sucked everything up and pilled up into little balls. Never used ATF again just CLP.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Never heard of ATF as a recommendation. Our guys were fond of WD40... as it's easy to use and gets in the nooks and crannies of an open bolt to get out seawater, probably not great for cold weather. I trended to thin mobile one from the engine shop.

We had graphite powder, but I never used it.

graphite powder is bad
I've used Mobil 1 down to -10 with no issues but never in prolonged artic conditions although it's rated for -40.

To be honest, I hope I never have to go out and shoot in -40! ha

 

[LRRPF52]

I think the trigger assembly on the M14 froze solid. Specifically the hammer spring area filled up with water and froze.

The Garand/M14 receiver design is one of the most prone to being interfered with by the conditions, especially beach sand.

I’ve seen beach sand shut an M14 down even a day later after the weapons were cleaned. It shut down my AR-10 when I allowed sand to somehow get scooped up into a mag during mag changes, and that was with me putting the PMAG covers on the mags just because I saw what it was doing to everyone’s bolt guns (malfunctions galore).

After cleaning out everything and going to the range the next day, no problems with the AR-10. M-14 still had some residual sand somewhere, choked up the guy’s rifle.

I’ve heard anecdotes about guys in WWII who had all kinds of winter freezing conditions-related failures in the European Theater as well.

For the battle rifles, I really like the FAL’s gas system in that sense. You can crank it open in extreme cold or dirty conditions to run full gas, and tune it down in hot weather in a non-sand environment.

The rest of the FAL’s quirks kinda negate that great feature of the gas system though.

 

[LRRPF52]

Totally awesome seeing the Suomi M31 subgun pictured above in your post! They are heavy for a subgun but built back in a different era. Shoot very nicely! Did you get a chance to put some rounds thru one?

Read all your posts/write ups you did. Very nice!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Thanks Frank. Your barrels (even in gas guns) rival most of the bolt gun accuracy I’ve seen over my life. My .260 Rem Bartlein barrel George Gardner built for me is a freaking laser even at long range in a gasser. It shoots the old school 130gr Berger VLD extremely well, as it does everything else. Everyone told me I wouldn’t be able to shoot VLDs accurately in a gas gun, but the chamber was cut for 139gr Scenar so it just works.

Anyway, yes, I’ve shot the Kp31s quite a bit for fun at many of the high volume courses if someone brought one along. They actually use constant recoil operating principle, approaching it with 3 different methods. You can write your name with them even with no training. They’re heavier than a Garand, but balance pretty well. Apparently, the Finns sourced barrels for them from a prominent English competition barrel-maker in the early 1930s, 2 barrels per SMG. It has a great quick barrel change feature where there’s a throw-lever right under the receiver/barrel shroud junction. Shroud slides right off and barrel pulls directly out, no real locking mechanism other than the throw-lever retention since it’s blowback anyway.

Of all the weapons I’ve fired over the course of the better part of 5 decades, the Kp31 sticks out as a particularly-enjoyable one. They are just fun. M2 .50 BMG is another.

Machine-gun collector’s licenses are somewhat simple to get there, so I know a lot of guys who have fairly large collections. Prices were about the same as regular semi-auto rifles, so it isn’t hard to rack-up a collection of MP5s, Hk33s, G3s, G21, etc.

For extreme cold shooting, the first multi-day event I spent with one of the units allowed me to shoot one of the Hk33s, which I really liked for shooting in the cold with the 40rd mag. Using modern technique, the muzzle didn’t rise at all. With the Hk53 shorty, totally different mule-kick type recoil behavior, even in extreme cold. Not sure what rolling locker size he had in there though.

The Hk controls make so much more sense when you’re wearing proper winter clothing and heavier gloves. I normally loathe them, but the size of the cocking handles and selector levers feel much better with gloved hands. Same with the huge triggers and generous trigger guards.

I still like the AR-15/AR-10 controls though. The Stoner design is about ideal in extreme cold, especially using aircraft-grade alloys for the receivers with enclosed design. The charge handle is difficult to operate without a more modern extended latch design, but those have become standard for me ever since PRI and BCM handles set the tone for the future.

 

[LRRPF52]

With the imminent threat of Climate Change he should be testing weapons above 150°, that is the info we need.

If we accept the premise of extreme global warming, then the natural planetary climate control response is to counter it with another ice age.

 

[LRRPF52]

respectfully, selling to leo means absolutely nothing and I'd not use that as a marker for anything

LPK; Colt, FN, DD are all made to spec. Dare I say, I believe the Aero lpk is as well however, I cannot confirm the springs but in reality, you can go to several sites and pick each piece to a lpk that would be colt, fn etc for mil spec'd parts

I too would love his input on specific gear

The problem with civilian guns is that we don’t know what the parts were held-to in reference to any type of TDP.

For a military contract, the parts have to have a pedigree from raw materials to final, even before they show up at the assembler’s plant.

For civilian market, it’s all about delivering in a timely manner at optimal margins for your business model.

What we’ve seen over the years with Vismod-15s (Pat Roger’s description of them) is that an assembler will source parts from wherever they can as quickly as they can to meet demand of wholesalers or FFLs moving their products quickly.

Many of the big-name AR-15 assemblers relied on common small parts sources for decades, including DPMS. A lot of those parts wouldn’t meet specs for some companies, whereas others didn’t care.

You can see a big difference in hammers, springs, small parts, detents, extractors, bolts, barrel extensions, carriers, fasteners, etc. if you know what you’re looking at.

Mil contract guns will have proof marks and inspection codes on parts, and the parts will be made of certain alloys, steels, and polymers. Look at a Colt A2 pistol grip vs a Vismod pistol grip as an example. The material quality is much more substantial, because they had to meet the TDP Arctic portion of the trials up at CRTC at Greeley. Same with extractor springs, action springs, ejector springs, CH latch springs, even the Forward Assist spring.

If you want one of the best-made AR-15s for extreme cold, look at what the Canadians have made at Diamaco for decades, now Colt Canada. There are reasons why British SBS and SAS have used those weapons for so long. I think the Danes, Norwegians, and Dutch SOF/Commando/Recce units used them too.

I had some petty lengthy conversations with Colt Canada engineers about parts and processes differences, and they just don’t to stupid things like HPT on bolts, while using better approaches to forming the bolt steel. Bill A. also used to do depot-level repair on UK service weapons, and noticed that their bolts would last very long in high volume, so it’s not just anecdotal at that point. The chambers were egged out before bolts broke.

One of the best resources I’ve seen lately about parts is School of the American Rifle. He has some very enlightening videos for those that haven’t seen the actual differences between parts, and still think that Mil-Spec is just marketing. I’ve lost count how many time I’ve heard a gun clerk say, “Mil spec is just the bottom of the standard. This here has a nicer barrel/tighter-fitting receiver set, Nickel Boron BCG, better trigger, etc. with Cerakote transient gender green, much better than Mil-Spec lowest bidder crap.” Customer looks up in bewilderment as if they have just been well-informed by a highly-knowledgable salesman, when they were in reality misinformed and are now less-aware of realty than before they entered the store.



It’s extremely difficult to achieve true Mil-Spec, and the main reason for that is the Arctic Weather operation requirements, as well as dimensional adherence to the TDP.

 

[jzerfoss]

HPT bolts 1/2 the life of the bolt.
Big Mil specs HPT, some savvy SOCOM contracts don't...

The military protocols ensure it doesn't crap out day one, but not optimal for modern high quality mfgr

This is new to me. Please explain how it cuts bolt life in half.

 

[TurboTrout]

There’s a reason your weapon stays outside all the time when training in the artic. We never ever kept our M4s in the ten man tents when we set them up in Alaska.

Similar to aircraft, if you go from a heated hangar to the outside you better spray deice or be wheels up mighty quick

 

[TacticalPlinker]

I'll skip right to "manual action" and my USP .45......

 

[LRRPF52]

This is new to me. Please explain how it cuts bolt life in half.

Unnecessary and harmful shock stress to the bolt lugs and bolt body.

Canadians, Knights Armament, and AA don’t do it, although US Army put HPT in the specs for the bolts on the M110, whereas it wasn’t a thing on the SR-25. I know guys who have broken bolts on M110s suppressed, and then went back to SR-25s with a specific call-out for not following the M110 TDP. If you’ve ever seen an AR-10 bolt, you realize that they shouldn’t be breaking for any reason, but the Army found a way to make it a thing on them too.

The tiny lugs on 5.56 bolts don’t leave you with any room to play, so metallurgy and processes have to be dialed-in. Destructive testing as a percentage of batches is preferred over non-destructive testing (HPT).

The Canadians also don’t do HPT, and thought it was stupid. The results speak for themselves. I think they might be forging their bolt blanks before finish-machining, shot-peening, and heat-treating, though they of course were guarded about the details.

 

[jzerfoss]

Unnecessary and harmful shock stress to the bolt lugs and bolt body.

Canadians, Knights Armament, and AA don’t do it, although US Army put HPT in the specs for the bolts on the M110, whereas it wasn’t a thing on the SR-25. I know guys who have broken bolts on M110s suppressed, and then went back to SR-25s with a specific call-out for not following the M110 TDP. If you’ve ever seen an AR-10 bolt, you realize that they shouldn’t be breaking for any reason, but the Army found a way to make it a thing on them too.

The tiny lugs on 5.56 bolts don’t leave you with any room to play, so metallurgy and processes have to be dialed-in. Destructive testing as a percentage of batches is preferred over non-destructive testing (HPT).

The Canadians also don’t do HPT, and thought it was stupid. The results speak for themselves. I think they might be forging their bolt blanks before finish-machining, shot-peening, and heat-treating, though they of course were guarded about the details.

Interesting. Seems like anecdotal evidence. Not saying that it's not true but any specific testing on this by the firearms industry, military, or a third party? I could see a small amount of service life lost but 50% seems extreme.

 

[LRRPF52]

Interesting. Seems like anecdotal evidence. Not saying that it's not true but any specific testing on this by the firearms industry, military, or a third party? I could see a small amount of service life lost but 50% seems extreme.

So I’m referencing multiple sources over the years with engineers and manufacturers, including Colt Canada, Knights Armament, former British MoD engineers, high volume test reports from joint US Army/USAF studies in the 1960s, test reports in reaction to the high incidence of failures on M4A1 bolts in the 2000s, and current manufacturers with recent funded testing who have done large sample size analyses.

The test data is irrefutable about HPT. It’s bad and should be replaced with other processes.

It causes stress fractures in the base material that eventually propagate their way to the surface, at which time the bolt will fail. These fractures don’t show up on Magnetic Particle Inspection, but do show up doing destructive testing. MPI involves magnetizing the part, then spraying a luminous wet solution (with magnetic particles in it) onto the surface and seeing if stress fractures can be witnessed:

Destructive testing is where the cross section of the part (that will best expose its structural features) is revealed by machining it, carefully polishing it, and encasing it in resin for microscopic grain structure analysis. I have a close friend who does this for a living, so he shows me sectioned parts all the time that he has taken photos of with really high-end Zeiss microscopes to reveal bizarre features of alloys after laser-sintering and other processes.

For an AR-15 bolt, you machine down the face of it into the lug roots, polish it, and place it in resin to see if there are any stress fractures. By doing a certain % of a batch like this, you can better determine if this batch needs more destructive testing, or if the grain structure of the parts followed acceptable call-outs that adhere to the requirements.

I think the allure to HPT is that someone can say every bolt was tested and passed MPI after Non-Destructive Testing, whereas you obviously can’t destroy every bolt you plan to put into a rifle.

Another approach to a really tough AR-15 bolt is to use exotic Aerospace alloys, namely AerMet. Several companies have used it for their enhanced or standard bolts on different rifles, but it’s expensive to acquire, expensive to machine, and harder to heat-treat and basically doubles the cost of the bolt.

There’s a recent study that aimed to increase the life of Carpenter 158 alloy bolts using Low Plasticity Burnishing:

LPB looks like a replacement for shot-peening. For those wondering what shot-peening is, it’s where you cold-work a part with impacts from steel shot to harden the surface.

The LSB peening test claims boast at least 2x service life, with 26,000rds fired before failure using M855. The LSB method could reduce several of the legacy processes, while doubling bolt life.

 

[RUTGERS95]

The problem with civilian guns is that we don’t know what the parts were held-to in reference to any type of TDP.

For a military contract, the parts have to have a pedigree from raw materials to final, even before they show up at the assembler’s plant.

For civilian market, it’s all about delivering in a timely manner at optimal margins for your business model.

What we’ve seen over the years with Vismod-15s (Pat Roger’s description of them) is that an assembler will source parts from wherever they can as quickly as they can to meet demand of wholesalers or FFLs moving their products quickly.

Many of the big-name AR-15 assemblers relied on common small parts sources for decades, including DPMS. A lot of those parts wouldn’t meet specs for some companies, whereas others didn’t care.

You can see a big difference in hammers, springs, small parts, detents, extractors, bolts, barrel extensions, carriers, fasteners, etc. if you know what you’re looking at.

Mil contract guns will have proof marks and inspection codes on parts, and the parts will be made of certain alloys, steels, and polymers. Look at a Colt A2 pistol grip vs a Vismod pistol grip as an example. The material quality is much more substantial, because they had to meet the TDP Arctic portion of the trials up at CRTC at Greeley. Same with extractor springs, action springs, ejector springs, CH latch springs, even the Forward Assist spring.

If you want one of the best-made AR-15s for extreme cold, look at what the Canadians have made at Diamaco for decades, now Colt Canada. There are reasons why British SBS and SAS have used those weapons for so long. I think the Danes, Norwegians, and Dutch SOF/Commando/Recce units used them too.

I had some petty lengthy conversations with Colt Canada engineers about parts and processes differences, and they just don’t to stupid things like HPT on bolts, while using better approaches to forming the bolt steel. Bill A. also used to do depot-level repair on UK service weapons, and noticed that their bolts would last very long in high volume, so it’s not just anecdotal at that point. The chambers were egged out before bolts broke.

One of the best resources I’ve seen lately about parts is School of the American Rifle. He has some very enlightening videos for those that haven’t seen the actual differences between parts, and still think that Mil-Spec is just marketing. I’ve lost count how many time I’ve heard a gun clerk say, “Mil spec is just the bottom of the standard. This here has a nicer barrel/tighter-fitting receiver set, Nickel Boron BCG, better trigger, etc. with Cerakote transient gender green, much better than Mil-Spec lowest bidder crap.” Customer looks up in bewilderment as if they have just been well-informed by a highly-knowledgable salesman, when they were in reality misinformed and are now less-aware of realty than before they entered the store.



It’s extremely difficult to achieve true Mil-Spec, and the main reason for that is the Arctic Weather operation requirements, as well as dimensional adherence to the TDP.

yup...same page, we agree and have same view on many things.

 

[Smokin7s]

I’ve been thinking since I watched it if u was carrying a rifle on my person in the snow or freezing rain it surely wouldn’t get as much in there as the test did right?

 

[RUTGERS95]

Unnecessary and harmful shock stress to the bolt lugs and bolt body.

Canadians, Knights Armament, and AA don’t do it, although US Army put HPT in the specs for the bolts on the M110, whereas it wasn’t a thing on the SR-25. I know guys who have broken bolts on M110s suppressed, and then went back to SR-25s with a specific call-out for not following the M110 TDP. If you’ve ever seen an AR-10 bolt, you realize that they shouldn’t be breaking for any reason, but the Army found a way to make it a thing on them too.

The tiny lugs on 5.56 bolts don’t leave you with any room to play, so metallurgy and processes have to be dialed-in. Destructive testing as a percentage of batches is preferred over non-destructive testing (HPT).

The Canadians also don’t do HPT, and thought it was stupid. The results speak for themselves. I think they might be forging their bolt blanks before finish-machining, shot-peening, and heat-treating, though they of course were guarded about the details.

I want to say LMT since LMT makes quite a bit of parts for KAC to include the bolts

 

[Mrhyne]

@LRRPFS2 just wanted to send appreciation your way for posting/sharing your knowledge and experience.

Better than anything I have seen out there.

 

[Frank Green]

@LRRPFS2 just wanted to send appreciation your way for posting/sharing your knowledge and experience.

Better than anything I have seen out there.

Thanks Guys!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[WindstormSCR]

The problem with civilian guns is that we don’t know what the parts were held-to in reference to any type of TDP.

For a military contract, the parts have to have a pedigree from raw materials to final, even before they show up at the assembler’s plant.

This.

Speaking as someone who works QC at a precision machining shop that contracts to several defense companies, it's not just the materials either. Everything is strictly controlled and checked to a spec.

The process generally used is governed by a certification called AS9100

example:
1) if a part's aluminum, when we get a sourced block of aluminum, it isn't just "here's your raw stock" it has the batch number, heat lot #, the entire testing report to make sure it matches the relevant standards (for example QQ-A-250/11 for 6061 T651 Plate stock)
2) when the part's made, before they're cranked out you have traceable first-piece reports that show it met all design criteria, and they're not making any until it meets them properly.
3) all of the surface finishes and heat treatments are specified, called out, must be done by NADCAP accreddited suppliers, and a certain number of samples are provided for verification. In the case of heat treatment a scan of the kiln roto-log has to be provided. (since they're difficult/impossible to forge)
4) All of the above gets checked in what's called a first article inspection, which is a verifiable paper trail that everything has been done to spec and requirement.

and to cap it off, most of the steps along the process except the lesser spot-checks of a part during the production run carry the weight of a federal felony if forged for any reason.

Combined with parts being CAGE-code marked and serialized, this is how failures in aerospace, ordnance, and some firearm/optic parts can be traced down to the exact machine and operator who produced it, and who inspected it.

Seems like overkill until you realize some of these parts could be the difference between life and death for a soldier or aircrew.


As far as how this relates to cold weather performance, without the above companies *will* cut corners, and some try it even with the above stuff in place! As anecdotal evidence or worst-case scenario the freeze test is mildly interesting, but unscientific.

 

[LRRPF52]

Another relevant process that is part of the TDP but isn’t seen on a lot of Vismod-15s is the dry film lubricant that is sprayed and baked onto the inside surface of the upper receiver, and all over the RET. That texture acts like a lubricant suspension base, whereas a straight anodized surface lets lubricant drip off quickly. Those who are familiar with actual Mil-Spec RETs know immediately the surface I’m talking about. GI Aluminum magazines were coated with it as well.

Longer-suspended lubricant means you can run high volume longer between lubing, or go longer between applications. You still need to break the seal of your chamber after a dew cycle/every morning before sunrise (BMNT).

 

[NiteQwill]

Because it is the Internet and some people think he is being serious. Because he is or was a USAF winter survival school instructor. Though he keeps that out of the picture. In fact, nobody is sure what this guy's background might be. But if he was or is a USAF winter survival school instructor I can tell you based on experience that he is an asshole in real life. "Uh, I wouldn't spend the night so close to that shithole it will attract mice." "Nobody has taken a shit in five days so I will take my chances". Fucking lifers.

As someone who personally knows GarandThumb, I can guarantee you he is the nicest person in real life. And his persona you see online is not what you experience in real life. He targets his internet audience for a reason... $$$. No one clicks a boring ass video about how to disassemble a bolt carrier group.

In regards to the video, guys... It's the internet. Taking this stuff way too seriously.

 

[WindstormSCR]

Another relevant process that is part of the TDP but isn’t seen on a lot of Vismod-15s is the dry film lubricant that is sprayed and baked onto the inside surface of the upper receiver, and all over the RET. That texture acts like a lubricant suspension base, whereas a straight anodized surface lets lubricant drip off quickly. Those who are familiar with actual Mil-Spec RETs know immediately the surface I’m talking about. GI Aluminum magazines were coated with it as well.

Longer-suspended lubricant means you can run high volume longer between lubing, or go longer between applications. You still need to break the seal of your chamber after a dew cycle/every morning before sunrise (BMNT).

tungsten or molybdenum disulfide is also a real bitch to get off anything you don’t want it on, so if you have a DFL treated upper I’d recommend gloves.

on another note, if you have an AR or mags that was not put through a DFL process, you can actually get that stuff and do the treatment yourself. The product you want is called WS2.

theres some really good info here, and depending on what you’re doing you can either have a company treat the parts for you, or DIY with an applicator. definitely wear PPE when handling though, respirator required

expensive though, $1/gram or there about


so for anyone in northern states, canada, or finland, that might be a solution if you’re seriously concerned.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

IMO -- GARAND THUMB = Tactical entertainment with real world nuggets of MIL information sprinkled in.

 

[supercorndogs]

Unrealistic. I was on a cold weather team and as previously mentioned SOP is to leave weapons outside so they don't get condensation on them that then freezes in inconveinant places. Often times this effects the optics more than the guts of the rifles.

Ref water immersion, decades ago when navspecwar had regional focuses they used AK's, 18" M14's and some G3 varients for cold weather over the beach ops. The M4's didn't work so well in transition periods.

It seems to me these would be problems you would see more when freezing and thawing becomes a daily cycle. Mornings frost melted into the gun at 40 degrees, then quickly froze when the sun started down.

 

[FatBoy]

As someone who personally knows GarandThumb, I can guarantee you he is the nicest person in real life. And his persona you see online is not what you experience in real life. He targets his internet audience for a reason... $$$. No one clicks a boring ass video about how to disassemble a bolt carrier group.

In regards to the video, guys... It's the internet. Taking this stuff way too seriously.

That’s 94 clicks/comments he’s not getting on YouTube, but that one video has generate more chatter here than any I can remember.

Time to retest the pepper grenades!

 

[BCP]

As someone who personally knows GarandThumb, I can guarantee you he is the nicest person in real life.

Flannel Daddy is my new youtube mancrush so it would suck to find out he's a whiney prick in real life.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

Flannel Daddy is my new youtube mancrush so it would suck to find out he's a whiney prick in real life.

I know him through another friend. GT is a real deal stand up guy.

 

[kthomas]

graphite powder is bad
I've used Mobil 1 down to -10 with no issues but never in prolonged artic conditions although it's rated for -40.

To be honest, I hope I never have to go out and shoot in -40! ha

Graphite powder worked great to keep the locks on my doors in functioning condition in -60° when I lived in Saskatchewan.

Never used it on firearms though.

 

[BCP]

Graphite powder worked great to keep the locks on my doors in functioning condition in -60° when I lived in Saskatchewan.

What did you use in the winter time?

 

[Isaiah's Blacksmith]

As someone who personally knows GarandThumb, I can guarantee you he is the nicest person in real life. And his persona you see online is not what you experience in real life. He targets his internet au dience for a reason... $$$. No one clicks a boring ass video about how to disassemble a bolt carrier group.

In regards to the video, guys... It's the internet. Taking this stuff way too seriously.

I was being facetious. I can tell he is just being himself. I'm just still pissed they gave me a pair of broken POS snow shoes. Also, not kidding that some dumb shits didn't take a shit for five days, lol. When it came time for E&E they were overcome with the absolute urge. .

 

[RTH1800]

Did not read all the replies. I did see enough to know that pouring water into a rifle in freezing temps is a bad idea.
One of the coldest large scale battles in history was Chosin R. Many weapons froze up but I think the M1's did as well or better than any IIRC.
M1 carbines not so much.

 

[mgrs]

Great posts from LRRPF, as usual

Did everyone hear that? The deafening sound of boomers clutching their pearls when the M1A failed to fire?

JK
I have an M1A and fully expected it to perform. So disappointed.

Good video.

Not surprising; M1A has more exposed moving parts and opportunities for stuff to get in that just about anything else tested.

Anecdotal as I do not have any cold weather experience with the M14, but the EBRs were finicky in dust. Some of that could probably be attributed to rushed/limited training on them, but they were not well liked.

 

[hlee]

This test, while described as ‘extreme cold,’ was more akin to freezing rain conditions. Warm enough to rain, but not enough residual warmth in the earth to prevent freezing. One could argue that this would be worse than arctic. This environmental condition could cause the freezing up that was shown in the video. The kind of slushy winter rain that can cause an entire city to grind to a halt…

 

[hlee]

That’s 94 clicks/comments he’s not getting on YouTube, but that one video has generate more chatter here than any I can remember.

Time to retest the pepper grenades!

Jeebus. You don’t remember the video with Nick Irving and that coke fiend from Googan baits trying to zero a rifle???

 

[FatBoy]

Jeebus. You don’t remember the video with Nick Irving and that coke fiend from Googan baits trying to zero a rifle???

I spend very little time watching videos or TV. No idea what you’re talking about but it sounds like it was epic.

 

[carbonbased]

I have lived most of my life in the Dakotas and Minnesota. I cannot say I have hunted at -40F, but I have been out and about at those temps. I actually like to go out in them. It can look crisp, clear, sharp as a tack, but once you walk out that door you realize the world is quietly trying to kill you 100% haha.

What really kills you fast is the wind. It is a godsend if you are in a thick evergreen forest. Flat, treeless Siberia-land, like goddamn Fargo and its constant year-round 20mph “breeze”(just the low end!) just murders exposed flesh in the winter. I lived through -92F wind chills up there (before they rejiggered the wind-chill scale. Now it would be -78F or close). I’d take -40F air temp with no wind any day of the week!

Anyway, guns don’t care about wind chill. But cold weather is why I’d prefer non-metallic parts for anything I touch (metal is cold even through gloves). Wood stocks mmmmmm. I can see why AKs are built this way. But I can see how just real cold weather is not the “end” for modern rifles. It’s a stable scenario.

As someone mentioned, dumping water into an action and freezing/testing it might be more like freezing rain conditions aka the somewhat-rare (but not too rare, at least up here) dreaded ICE STORM. That weather type, my friends (especially when the temps are dropping), is just rather unbelievable if you haven’t lived through it.

It is “sleet” x100.

I remember my 1970 Blazer K10’s antenna looking like a damn popsicle, with that thin shaft of metal encased in stupefyingly clear, thick ice. A road so slick that you immediately fall over when exiting the vehicle for the first time, even when you’re ready for the ice! Your truck’s defroster, like that poor SOB in Saving Private Ryan, slowly losing its battle with the ever-pressing downwards knife of constant-ice-accumulation-on-the-windshield (and esp. coating the wipers! You literally cannot do shit without functioning windshield wipers!! Arrrgh!!).

Looking through your side windows is like looking through an ice cube, the kind of ice cube you only see in fancy liquor ads. All the while, your damn toes are freezing off because the entirety of your rig’s heat is going towards defrosting!

And if you are trying to use your car after such a storm, ha! Plastic ice scrapers cry at the thought and ricochet off such hard ice. Even the best ice scrapers, those brass-bladed ones that I only see for sale around here (forget the name), are just no match for 3/16” or more of smooth glazed ice covering every damn surface and joint of your car.

Your only recourse is to turn the car on and let it run and run until enough of the ice melts off. This is, if you can get the door open. (WD-40 has a place here, one of the few places I use it).

If someone was shooting at me, like in the military, well, you’d have to brute force your way into the truck by beating the shit out of the body panels and maybe breaking the windows for access. Doors and locks freeze shut (as mentioned), but even if you get them to release and get in, when you try to shut the door the lock may have quickly frozen open. This means you cannot latch your door shut and thus you must hold it shut as you drive. Even my trusty Water Displacement-40 has failed me at this point. I remember my eyes darting around frantically while I thought, “Where do I spray it now?!” I blasted it into every hole I saw on the door (I had to get to work!), and soon my whole car smelled like WD-40. All to no avail.


Trust me, holding the door closed on a slippery highway is NOT FUN (happened me way more than just once, just everyday living up here grrr).

Back to being shot at after an ice storm. If you’re in a great big hurry the windshield might have to be shot out to see but that would have dire consequences quickly (wind chill), so hanging one’s head out the window would be preferable but not fun. Better than dead, I suppose.

I imagine military vehicles are built so locks don’t freeze?

Anyway, with regards to guns, in this nightmare environment is where you would indeed get insta-freezing rain misted into your rifle, onto your eyeglasses, freezing your eyeLASHES/eyes together, your beard like a dog mushers, your OAF goggles useless.

A single Indian tear solidifies upon your cheek as freezing rain wafts into your pretty all-lined-up mags. Those mags, which adorn your level 23 plate-carrier, are now ice-welded shut, encrusted onto said carrier. Tracer rounds fly overhead as your wet-but-somehow-frozen frickin’ pathetic wussy fingers just can’t seem to pry the barnacle-mags free, much less able to load more rounds into them etc.

Wait, you’re Mr. Prepared and your kit is running like a toasty air-cooled Ducati, you’re floating like the Angel of Death in a fog of WDFourOh, and the baddies (with their frozen rifles) are falling like snowflakes. But, whoops! You’ve run out of ammo. But, uh, all of the ammo boxes are now frozen-da-fuk shut! You disgustedly toss ol’ Trusty down upon the ice as you pad around your parka for backup…

From a hidden interior, velvet-padded, Kevlar-lined pocket, out comes the fearsome mil-spec cold-weather throwing stars…

Wait, I digress! I was having a flashback! Don’t leave! Read on!

This type of rain isn’t normal rain with big drops, it’s like hairspray. God help you if it’s really windy, you’re in a war zone and you need some fine motor skills (bare hands) on something metal.

I don’t even know what I’d do in an active firefight in such conditions. Wrap the rifle in my long underwear? Put it under my coat (brrrr) when on guard duty? Run away as I go insane? WTF hep’ me Laud!

And if you’ve left your weapon out (or got caught out while on patrol) for, oh, 5-10 minutes in a particularly vicious Ice storm and temps are now very low? Might be preferable to just shoot yourself with your service pistol (if you have one) and get it over with lol.

Pro tip: Never invade Russia without training everything in Fargo/Grand Forks/Minot for 40 years first! (Edit: not enuff! Need to also train on melty permafrost too!)


- thx for reading. I had fun with this. But all the weather shit is damn true! Including the eyelashes! Fuck Fargo!