Fundamental frank vs the free recoilers

[TonyTheTiger]

This is a great post to follow, and I love it when discussions can happen without panties getting all bunched up. Improvements need to be made and level-headed discussions are key.

I’m not a gear fan, but I usually follow suit to stay as competitive as possible. I happen to shoot a heavier rifle as I just enjoy it more…I didn’t really go that route to gain an advantage.

With that said, I want to bring something up that’s related but not in regards to gear or rifle weight or gaming. I can live with all that, but to me the BIGGER issue we have in PRS and NRL is there are no separate classes (A, B, C) for different skilled shooters. I know it’s been mentioned, but I haven’t noticed any fresh conversations about it.

The “boredom” effect is real. As mentioned above, matches are blending together as there are only so many types of obstacles to shoot off. Now, throw in the fact that the same top shooters are taking top spots (I will leave the prize table out of it). Without separate classes, a ton of new and seasoned shooters are getting VERY bored of same ‘ol same ‘ol for stages and the winners.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe the top shooters should be recognized and rewarded for their sacrifice in practice and money spent. However, it should be top shooters in each of the different classes. Many individuals, myself included, do not have unlimited resources or a home range that I can spend hours upon hours putting thousands of rounds down range practicing. So, more than likely I will never be able to compete with the top shooters as long as everyone is lumped into the same “class”.

Without classes, the analogy I use is like throwing high school athletes in with the pros, and expecting them to compete without the same resources available across the field of players. Some will eventually get better due to skill and move up, while the majority will simply get washed out from the “boredom”.

Classes would introduce a whole new level of competition and excitement….and better yet….growth. I would definitely sign up for more matches, knowing I could truly be competitive. For the record, I don’t do this JUST for the fun. I’m as competitive as the next guy. So, it does bother me to be, in say, the top 30 instead of top 5. I feel I have the skill set, but not the resources to compete in the current alignment. I believe there are a TON of shooters that fit this type that will be lost if something isn’t done.

I don’t see what the challenge is. It’s already been established in other shooting disciplines, but for some reason PRS/NRL can’t figure it out.

Hoping one of you “insiders” can shed some light on this.

Booooo. All those shooters taking top spots started at the bottom of the totem pole just like you. Winning C class doesn't mean you're competitive, it means you're the best of the worst. I'm not sure why anyone would want notoriety for that.

 

[MuleyTime]

Booooo. All those shooters taking top spots started at the bottom of the totem pole just like you. Winning C class doesn't mean you're competitive, it means you're the best of the worst. I'm not sure why anyone would want notoriety for that.

Ok....I like other's view points and opinions. However, that analogy does not translate to hardly any other sport or shooting discipline. It's not a static thing as your post suggests. One simple example....Classes have been in competitive Trap shooting for years, and it works. It works because as you Win C class, you are moved up to B class and will never see C class again. Another, it works in Dirt Bike racing, because, if I remember correctly, if you place in the top 3 in say like 3 events, you are automatically advanced to the next class.

I'm stating this based on a lot of experience within sports that classify competitors....It's actually pretty cool.....and did I mention.....it works.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

@MuleyTime I understand that its not static, and I'm assuming you've got USPSA scoring in mind which I'm very familiar with, but I still don't care for it. For one, winning the bottom third or half of a match means nothing, and if it does it brings out the sandbaggers. It all smells a bit like participation trophies.
Having shot in sports with and without classifications I would absolutely argue against implementing them every time and twice on sundays. It delegitimizes the fact that it is a competition, and competitions can only have one first place finisher. Recognize Top Lady or Top Junior if you like, much past that and you might as well just hand out ribbons as door prizes.

PS, I'm also leaving the prize table argument out of it and it has absolutely no bearing on anything I wrote.

 

[LRdasher]

PS, I'm also leaving the prize table argument out of it and it has absolutely no bearing on anything I wrote.

You can't leave the prize table out of this discussion. It IS the reason there is even a discussion.

If there is no prize table (the only way to take it out of the discussion) then why would anyone object to having different classes such as USPSA?

Everyone still looks at the scores to see who won the match. Doesn't matter if there is a GM, M, A, B, C or D next to their name. The winner is the winner. The nice thing about classes it that it motivates everyone to try and improve and move up. I have NEVER heard anyone brag they were the C class winner. D class shooters are trying to improve to C. C's are trying to improve to B and so on and so on. There is no benefit whatsoever to sandbag. Then have the Finale with invites going only to the top class of shooters (essentially what is currently being done by inviting the top 100).

As I said before I think the goal of these series should be to promote and grow the sport first and foremost. Going to a classification system I think would help bring in more shooters and entice them to shoot more matches.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

@LRdasher We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think classifications are dumb even at small local USPSA matches or trap leagues with no prize tables whatsoever.
I've hung my hat on 3 gun as a primary sport, no classes just divisions and everyone wants to win high overall, placing 60th of 80 is equally as motivating as the classification equivalent of wanting to go from a high D to low C class USPSA shooter. Either way you've got a long ways to go to hit the only spot that matters.
If you can't self motivate to improve without a class system you're not gonna make it anyways.

 

[MuleyTime]

I agree LRDasher....for the most part......
I think maybe the current "seasoned" shooter may not brag about winning "C" class, but it may mean more to that person than you think.

Now to emphasize your last statement about growth......For new shooters, ABSOLUTELY I can see them bragging about winning their class, and retention and growth will increase.

Winning a lower class may or may not be one's goal, but my argument for classes is similar to yours........I promise it will build more motivation and maybe lessen the "boredom" effect.

 

[MuleyTime]

Looking into a crystal ball......I'm a seasoned shooter with good skills but limited resources/training opportunity. I would love to win the "B" class. And I would brag loudly about it...LOL....if I was a bragger

Reality would sink in quickly as I would be moved up to the A class and I would be very motivated to see how far up I could progress..I know that might sound like I just contradicted myself with my argument for classes, but in reality, it would provide a solid skills baseline and give me the additional confidence that would transfer into motivation.

 

[j-huskey]

Psychologically and historically, class levels provide encouragement to improve.
Peacetime 11Bravo graduates basic, AIT, and goes active. Goes for EIB to "show" promotability, and to get into some schools, and to have bragging rights in some cases.

In basic, in the shooters badges meant something.

CMP programs, NRA, Police Marksman, classes based on ability and growth with class bumps upon reaching achievement levels.

All school sports have some levels of classes and encouragement and room to grow. All the way up to pro.

Jobs offer raises to employees.
Bosses who listen to employee ideas and implement the good ones, have more successful businesses. Same with match directors...

Historically u improve, u grow. Ignore time proven psychology long enough and watch your organization go to shit.

Been enough comments in this and the other bitch posts to indicate the truth of it.
Follow proven business models and there is a much higher probability of success... time has shown that. Ignore proven methods at your own risk.

 

[Namekagon]

I don't think the the use of free recoil in matches as a shooting tactic is itself the problem.

The problem is when rifle design starts to get specialized to enable the method. A 25 lb rifle with weights attached is not "practical" in the same way benchrest gear isn't practical. If someone thinks that free recoiling their normal weight 6.5CM is the way to go on a stage, I have no problem with that. Thats using a tool in the toolbox.

Weight limits would fix the problem, but to me that is not the only way out. A better way is to design matches with sufficiently diverse COF that makes the 25lb rifle a hindrance as often as an advantage.

In reality, the solution probably depends on what the MD has to work with for a range. Small ranges where movement is hard to make work may have to use weight limits to keep gear practical. Matches with more real estate to use with won't need the limits if the stages are designed correctly.

 

[Mormegil87]

I don't think the the use of free recoil in matches as a shooting tactic is itself the problem.

The problem is when rifle design starts to get specialized to enable the method. A 25 lb rifle with weights attached is not "practical" in the same way benchrest gear isn't practical. If someone thinks that free recoiling their normal weight 6.5CM is the way to go on a stage, I have no problem with that. Thats using a tool in the toolbox.

Weight limits would fix the problem, but to me that is not the only way out. A better way is to design matches with sufficiently diverse COF that makes the 25lb rifle a hindrance as often as an advantage.

In reality, the solution probably depends on what the MD has to work with for a range. Small ranges where movement is hard to make work may have to use weight limits to keep gear practical. Matches with more real estate to use with won't need the limits if the stages are designed correctly.

Honest question. Who gets to decide what is and is not practical? We can't even agree on what is and is not a production rifle for the production class. Much less something so subjective as practicality. For me running around with a 20+ lb AI is practical because I put a premium on reliability and don't want to have to deal with all the trigger, bolt and firing pin issues I've seen over the years with 700 clones. You or someone else may have a different view of practicality. Someone may view ARs in .224 as more practical.

I know that I'm getting hypothetical with my response to your post but I guarantee that if we go down the "practicality" road, those questions will come.

 

[Lowlight]

Unfortunately, the series has no desire to do the classes thing, at least not correctly.

This was my main issue with the NRL, and the PRS has tried it but unsuccessfully.

I think it comes down to the work required to do it right, everything is about the shortcut, to do as little as possible. This stuff requires work and effort to get right, and after 6 years there has been zero desire to get this part right.

The discussions are easy, we are all plenty smart enough to come up with solutions, the hard part is execution. You have to have a will and desire to execute the visions, that part is missing.

 

[MuleyTime]

Yeah, both series are taking the easy way out. Not judging, as I understand it would take considerable effort and time and I'm just sitting here armchair quarterbacking.....but it is on my wish list.

 

[j-huskey]

Unfortunately, the series has no desire to do the classes thing, at least not correctly.

This was my main issue with the NRL, and the PRS has tried it but unsuccessfully.

I think it comes down to the work required to do it right, everything is about the shortcut, to do as little as possible. This stuff requires work and effort to get right, and after 6 years there has been zero desire to get this part right.

The discussions are easy, we are all plenty smart enough to come up with solutions, the hard part is execution. You have to have a will and desire to execute the visions, that part is missing.

In the execution of the changes, doing the WORK required, the problem is very simple, the people wanting the power, will NOT do the work, NOR will they share the "power" with those who will do the work.

The changes wont come because the top dogs want to stay top dogs in the organization, and the people WILLING to do the work, are not willing to align themselves with the power hungry.

Until that part changes, nothing else will.

The attacks on X by Y, are sufficient evidence of the unwillingness to give up "the illusion of power".

Kinda God help the finger pointer, they will be attacked.

 

[Mountainbum]

This is a great post to follow, and I love it when discussions can happen without panties getting all bunched up. Improvements need to be made and level-headed discussions are key.

I’m not a gear fan, but I usually follow suit to stay as competitive as possible. I happen to shoot a heavier rifle as I just enjoy it more…I didn’t really go that route to gain an advantage.

With that said, I want to bring something up that’s related but not in regards to gear or rifle weight or gaming. I can live with all that, but to me the BIGGER issue we have in PRS and NRL is there are no separate classes (A, B, C) for different skilled shooters. I know it’s been mentioned, but I haven’t noticed any fresh conversations about it.

The “boredom” effect is real. As mentioned above, matches are blending together as there are only so many types of obstacles to shoot off. Now, throw in the fact that the same top shooters are taking top spots (I will leave the prize table out of it). Without separate classes, a ton of new and seasoned shooters are getting VERY bored of same ‘ol same ‘ol for stages and the winners.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe the top shooters should be recognized and rewarded for their sacrifice in practice and money spent. However, it should be top shooters in each of the different classes. Many individuals, myself included, do not have unlimited resources or a home range that I can spend hours upon hours putting thousands of rounds down range practicing. So, more than likely I will never be able to compete with the top shooters as long as everyone is lumped into the same “class”.

Without classes, the analogy I use is like throwing high school athletes in with the pros, and expecting them to compete without the same resources available across the field of players. Some will eventually get better due to skill and move up, while the majority will simply get washed out from the “boredom”.

Classes would introduce a whole new level of competition and excitement….and better yet….growth. I would definitely sign up for more matches, knowing I could truly be competitive. For the record, I don’t do this JUST for the fun. I’m as competitive as the next guy. So, it does bother me to be, in say, the top 30 instead of top 5. I feel I have the skill set, but not the resources to compete in the current alignment. I believe there are a TON of shooters that fit this type that will be lost if something isn’t done.

I don’t see what the challenge is. It’s already been established in other shooting disciplines, but for some reason PRS/NRL can’t figure it out.

Hoping one of you “insiders” can shed some light on this.

I Agee this has been a great post, and as a new shooter contemplating on getting into match shooting, or not, what direction in equipment I want to go with etc. this has been a real eye opener. For me it’s the challenge of the unknown, having to adapt on the fly, would attract me the most. Moving targets, disqualifying trip wires, radio instruction to the next target. Different classes for what you’re into. I really don’t want to invest in a 30lbs match gun, 5k of accessories, latter to find out I would of been much happier with a Manners and a rifle strap, and a minimal amount of accessories. I Don’t want to be into matches that are all about winning where I’m going to be out classed for years to come? For me as a new shooter it’s more zen for the lack of a better word, I just want to achieve my personal best, without being obsessed with comparing myself to others. As long as everyone is having fun and making friends it’s cool. Other shooters help you achieve your personal best!, as long as you keep yourself centered and help others on the way. As for diversity, seems that eventually it will, more specialized matches, focusing on one or the other... Looking forward to what Frank has up his sleave for matches and new shooters in the future..... As long as it doesn’t involve me having to strap AR500 steel on all us new comers and then having us run for our lives across the field of fire. Getting me to do that, would be like trying to play fetch with a Fat old house cat.

 

[LawnMM]

Mo, there was a match like that last season. It was an NRL match in NM at Steel Safari. From what I've heard it was similar to the CD matches except they gave us target distances. I can't remember if there was a picture or not, but if there was it rudimentary at best. That match was tough, but one of the most fun ones I shot last year.

I shot three or four matches that year and liked that one the least. We had a new guy with our group, first match ever, and it was a horrible setup for a first timer. I think he had two hits the whole first day and not for lack of ability. It was the whole tactical Easter Egg Hunt format.

Moving targets around out there is difficult, logistically, I get that. However, it also means several target arrays were identical to the Steel Safari so if you'd shot that you had a big advantage on several stages over guys who hadn't because you knew where to look.

I like Frank's format of locate and lase your own targets/distances but I'm not a fan of the find everything on the clock format. You could throw in a blind stage or two to mix it up but a whole match worth wasn't that great, just my opinion.

What I will say about CD matches is I like the whole touch the pin or paint mark with a hand before the word go. Keeps people honest and as long as you can reach the marker how you set up is up to you.

I asked about the target distances thing at my first NRL match because it was new to me, having them provided. Trying to avoid a gear race was the answer. It's still a gear race, especially for new guys. I used to give ranges to new guys at Frank's matches who didn't have a decent laser.

Nowadays you can get a damn good laser for a few hundred bucks. It's not like it used to be where a $2k Terrapin hit everything and any rangefinder under 800 was useless past 500yds.

I think part of the fun was finding stuff and checking your dope cards or running a calculator for the solution under pressure because you're next in line to shoot. I'm not sure giving distances and course descriptions the night before so guys can mock up the stages in a hotel and run all the dope math ahead of time has been a positive for the sport overall.

Just one guys opinion that started doing all this almost 10yrs back and has watched it evolve.

 

[308pirate]

If you can't self motivate to improve without a class system you're not gonna make it anyways.

Well I am sure as hell glad you've got it figured out on behalf of everyone else.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Well I am sure as hell glad you've got it figured out on behalf of everyone else.

Yeah no problem man.

 

[missed]

Subd to read later....

 

[Killswitch Engage]

This is the exact description of a Competition Dynamics match.

What is the "PPRC" match that you guys are talking about?

pprc is exactly as described above. blind stages, ranging on the clock, single file to stage etc

 

[Night Assassin]

pprc is exactly as described above. blind stages, ranging on the clock, single file to stage etc

Would like to hit one up next year with ya man !!

 

[Lowlight]

Gunsite posted this and I found it timely

I did not vet the quote, but it works for me

 

[sstacllc]

Do 50 burpees for time then get in the prone behind the rifle in a traditional rifle shouldered method and do a 5 round dot drill at 100 yards in 30 seconds. Wait 20 minutes do 50 burpees and repeat but use a free recoil technique in the prone. See which one turns out the best

 

[Lowlight]

LOL,

Let's invent a contrived test, why not just run 1000 yards and do the same thing, If I ever find myself in a Burpee Contest with a shooting tiebreaker I'll be sure to remember this

Cause nobody ever figured out how to use a Fundamental when their heart rate or breathing was elevated. Never happened.

Good thing you posted on this on FB

 

[sstacllc]

LOL,

Let's invent a contrived test, why not just run 1000 yards and do the same thing, If I ever find myself in a Burpee Contest with a shooting tiebreaker I'll be sure to remember this

Cause nobody ever figured out how to use a Fundamental when their heart rate or breathing was elevated. Never happened.

Good thing you posted on this on FB

I would run 1000 yards if I had knees left. Burpees are something I can still do

 

[Lowlight]

@sstacllc

I can't reach the Top of a Barricade as currently described, so that makes it easier for both of us, you run the 1000 yards I will free recoil off the top of the barricade, we'll see what happens.

For the Burpee test are we using 26LBS 6 Dashers with 8oz triggers, or have you subscribed to the 2oz triggers variety we are starting to see?

 

[sstacllc]

@sstacllc

I can't reach the Top of a Barricade as currently described, so that makes it easier for both of us, you run the 1000 yards I will free recoil off the top of the barricade, we'll see what happens.

For the Burpee test are we using 26LBS 6 Dashers with 8oz triggers, or have you subscribed to the 2oz triggers variety we are starting to see?

I don't own a rifle with a 6 oz trigger they are all about 16 oz and I use the technique with my 11 ob 7 SAUM hnting rifle. It is a solution for a specific set of problems. It is a viable technique that should be practiced and understood. A true tactician will know when, where and how to employ it

 

[Lowlight]

Agreed

Which is why you chose to use 100 yards and not 1000 yards in the wind where the shooter would need to see what is happening and make adjustments.

Very few are saying it's not a Tool for the Toolbox so where is the rub... as most agree it's a tool.

Oh I know, it's the removing of the shooter from the equation and eliminating the marksmanship principles in favor of letting the rifle do all the work. Hence the meme about end results. If it's just about the end result why bother with any journey, just buy a heavy benchrest rig and use a remote actuator and let the rifle do the work. Create a custom heavy barreled action and carry 3 different stocks for a variety of obstacles to overcome and let it win for you.

 

[Basher]

@sstacllc

I can't reach the Top of a Barricade as currently described, so that makes it easier for both of us, you run the 1000 yards I will free recoil off the top of the barricade, we'll see what happens.

For the Burpee test are we using 26LBS 6 Dashers with 8oz triggers, or have you subscribed to the 2oz triggers variety we are starting to see?

Look, this discussion is all well and good. But that dude in the background? HE is the real freakin' champ here! Come on, people, there's a guy, without legs, and in a wheelchair in the background. HE'S out shooting a match, probably without complaining. What's YOUR excuse?! Improvise, adapt, and overcome. THAT is what it's all about!

 

[Diver160651]

Look, this discussion is all well and good. But that dude in the background? HE is the real freakin' champ here! Come on, people, there's a guy, without legs, and in a wheelchair in the background. HE'S out shooting a match, probably without complaining. What's YOUR excuse?! Improvise, adapt, and overcome. THAT is what it's all about!

That’s @NoLegs24 and he can shoot; really shoot.

 

[Basher]

That’s @NoLegs24 and he can shoot..

Nice, even a Hide member. I think all of us could probably learn a thing or two from him. That's perseverance and going after what you're passionate about, without letting anything hold you back!

 

[Lowlight]

And Yet,

the PRS types have complained openly about the fact Jorge is given different treatment in some ways that they don't get. They even bitched he was able to ride from stage to stage in a 4x4... true story.

again the missing element, behind the scene bs that never happened or did it.

 

[sstacllc]

Agreed

Which is why you chose to use 100 yards and not 1000 yards in the wind where the shooter would need to see what is happening and make adjustments.

Very few are saying it's not a Tool for the Toolbox so where is the rub... as most agree it's a tool.

Oh I know, it's the removing of the shooter from the equation and eliminating the marksmanship principles in favor of letting the rifle do all the work. Hence the meme about end results. If it's just about the end result why bother with any journey, just buy a heavy benchrest rig and use a remote actuator and let the rifle do the work. Create a custom heavy barreled action and carry 3 different stocks for a variety of obstacles to overcome and let it win for you.

I like the 1 moa dot drill at 100 becuse paper doesn't lie and it is easy to set up and evaluate. We could do 1000 yards shots and I would be able to use my technique and see where the bullet went and make decisions.

 

[sstacllc]

That’s @NoLegs24 and he can shoot; really shoot.

Nolegs is a beast! He is truly inspirational to me. #mancrush

 

[sstacllc]

And Yet,

the PRS types have complained openly about the fact Jorge is given different treatment in some ways that they don't get. They even bitched he was able to ride from stage to stage in a 4x4... true story.

again the missing element, behind the scene bs that never happened or did it.

Just a couple of weirdos complaining cause they got beat by Jorge. I'm not sure they were PRS members and neither do you so why did you put PRS in there as a quantifier?

 

[5RWill]

And Yet,

the PRS types have complained openly about the fact Jorge is given different treatment in some ways that they don't get. They even bitched he was able to ride from stage to stage in a 4x4... true story.

again the missing element, behind the scene bs that never happened or did it.

Shows the true character of some people in this sport/hobby/game. Man that blows my mind that someone would complain about that.

 

[sstacllc]

Shows the true character of some people in this sport/hobby/game. Man that blows my mind that someone would complain about that.

People in all walks of life are full of surprises that is for certain.

 

[Namekagon]

Honest question. Who gets to decide what is and is not practical? We can't even agree on what is and is not a production rifle for the production class. Much less something so subjective as practicality. For me running around with a 20+ lb AI is practical because I put a premium on reliability and don't want to have to deal with all the trigger, bolt and firing pin issues I've seen over the years with 700 clones. You or someone else may have a different view of practicality. Someone may view ARs in .224 as more practical.

I know that I'm getting hypothetical with my response to your post but I guarantee that if we go down the "practicality" road, those questions will come.

My main point was that free recoil, as a tool, really isn't the problem. The issue is the trend towards super heavy rifles designed to free recoil, removing some of the marksmanship from the game.

I guess by practical, I meant less specialized. Benchrest gear is very specialized. As such, it isn't the greatest idea to grab a benchrest rifle and go hunting with it. It also means that an excellent strictly-benchrest shooter who wins br competitions routinely may not be able to hit a damn thing when handed a typical sporter rifle. So, is he a marksman?

For me, the draw to precision rifle-style shooting is becoming an all-around rifleman, and then measuring the progress of my skills through competition. For awhile I can do that and be happy losing. But if not getting your ass kicked in PRS means needing to free recoil a 25 pound gun off the barricade, it will lose some of its appeal for me.

If the game is designed to somewhat limit the utility of very specialized gear, I think shooter skill becomes more of the focus of the competition.

 

[Lowlight]

Barricade Benchrest ... trademarked

 

[sstacllc]

Barricade Benchrest ... trademarked

LOL crap! now we have to call it that

 

[Lowlight]

It's all fun and games until someone puts a 26LBS rifle on a bag.

 

[sstacllc]

It's all fun and games until someone puts a 26LBS rifle on a bag.

I'm glad mine only weigh about 18 I'm to old to be lugging around a 20 plus lb rifle

 

[Namekagon]

Impressive, but clearly this forum is lacking ghost and bigfoot emogees.

 

[silhouette]

Deleted

 

[Squat]

What caliber would you guess he is shooting there? Serious question, not being argumentative. I ask because I have shot unbraked 6.5 creedmoor for a long time and I shoot it very well (.3-.4 groups on atlas and rear bag, easy hits out to 1200). I am getting to know my unbraked 300 Norma Mag and I will tell you I was getting away with a lot when shooting the creedmoor. If I am not nearly perfect on fundamentals when shooting the 300 the target lets me know very quickly. Straight behind the rifle is a huge one when you are shooting something with recoil. Not saying that is the ONLY way because I firmly agree that there is always at least a few ways that will work. I actually thought when I was shooting just the creedmoor that I was one of those guys that could get things done a little differently. With the creedmoor, I was. With the 300, nope. I have to be very deliberate with being straight on the rifle, pulling into the shoulder, and 90 on the trigger. Groups with the new gun went from 1-1.5 moa to .5 - .7 moa just getting those things cleaned up.

So true. Thats why I am so glad i started shooting with the .308 and higher, It made the 6.5x47 so much easier. I think you hit a lot of points that are valid. Guys hitting the easy button with light recoiling rifles, wind is easy recoil is easy followups are easy. 308 and 300s require much more attention to wind( 308) recoil (both) and followups( both )

 

[Squat]

I think a lot of the problems comes from this group of "top shooters" that everyone wants to make happy. Why does it matter what a bunch of guys think because they keep winning the same style? Using the NASCAR analogy lets just set up the playoff to be the same styles of tracks then only listen to the Long-Short-Road course guys just because they like that one style of course and keep winning. Change it up if they are so good then they will adapt. The simple fact that you are changing it up then a portion of the top 25% will switch to the new stuff. Who cares of the top 10 refuse to play the sponsors and fans will realize that the top guys were just good at one thing and migrate to the new style.

 

[Magnetic]

Classes promote increased participation and growth. Logic, reason, and correlation appear to be easily discarded by those opposed to objective critical thinking. The winners of the minor league world series and NASCAR XFinity Series races all celebrate and revel in their second-string success while working to make it to the next level. It doesn’t take anything away from the winning driver of the Cup Series or the series winning MLB team. Most of those guys came up the ranks and would likely never have had a chance to compete without doing so.

Imagine if the Super Bowl playoffs were open to any football team willing to pay an expensive entry fee. How many high school teams do you think would show up knowing they have zero chance of winning just to have their name on the bottom of some list? There is very little enticement for a new shooter to drive long distances and pay the expenses just to be on the bottom of a list. But if they have a chance to go up against their peers, then they can morph from cannon fodder to a competitor. Now the match draws 100 additional “weekend warriors” in addition to the top 25 guys in the area.

Who stands to benefit from this? Well the new guys don’t have all the top-end equipment making them a much larger customer base. You know who really likes customers? Sponsors. They stand to gain a much larger return on investment with the 100 newbies than the top 25 guys. The higher tide of increased sponsorship raises all the boats docking at the prize table. Now the new guy not only got enjoy the match and maybe have a reasonable chance at some goodies, he is telling his friends about it and is helping grow the sport from the bottom up.

Take a look around at the long-standing and successful shooting competitions, then look at PRS/NRL and take note of the differences. As with most things, the pendulum swings but eventually an equilibrium will be reached. The question is when that happens will either of these series be deemed a viable success? Will they exist at all? Will something new come along with the right formula and drive a stake right in the heart of both?

 

[FishDr]

All the comparison of shooting matches to NASCAR is entertaining. With regards to the different categories / classes / sections etc - nascar does this in separate competitions. These competitors are on different days, sometimes the same competitors with the different and distinct gear. Is that what we want? That stifles all opportunity for newcomers to learn from seasoned shooters, or even try out a piece of their gear.
Think it won’t happen??? I’ve actually been to a match where one guy asked if he could shoot each stage twice - once with open and once with a tactical gun!

I lost all interest in NASCAR when the president gave an interview on PBS many years ago and said something like “we make more money when these (few named) drivers win”. There were certain vehicle specs that are checked every week… and certain specs checked “at random”. The crew chiefs of the “profitable” drivers were frequently tipped what those “random specs” were going to be on the inspection for a given week.
Now I know why 4-5 drivers always win! Now I know why I’m no longer interested. We don’t want to repeat catering to a few.

 

[Lowlight]

The Nascar comparisons are not about making separate classes in separate matches.

The NASCAR comparisons to me are about THE SANCTIONING BODY and the work they do at these matches. The fact they regulate the events, the teams, and drivers. The Series don't understand this and will just say, We only keep score and line up events. They don't actually Officiate.

In the beginning, the PRS billed itself as the Monster Energy Cup level while missing the entire point that more than 1/2 its members are Arca level drivers in a Cup Level Match. You can easily have classes in the same event, lots of shooting sports do it. It's nothing more than handicapping a shooter like Golf. or in our case Trap, in that series you have the same course, but different placement for the shooter. Yard lines are used. In ours, you can easily change this to work. Same event with a handicap or different target size. Pros use a 45%, Amateurs a 66%... you just divide them up at the end and since we are using Practiscore why not let the software do all the hard work.

Funny years ago, I wrote a model for handicapping not only the shooter but the event. Since every event is different in terms of things like average range shot, average target size used the number of positional vs prone. There is plenty of data to weigh one competition and your success there over another held on the same weekend. But you have to be forward thinking and clearly, they are not.

It's an every 3-year thing, people start to see the shortcomings, whether or not it gets fixed is another conversation.

 

[silhouette]

I agree with @Magnetic . Classes, or "grades" are used here in a number of other shooting comps and is a system that works well.
For eg;
A grade maybe a hit percentage of 80 and above, B grade 60%, C grade 40% etc.
Your grade is determined by your previous 3 matches.

Or why not get rid of the prize table all together and just have a trophy for 1st, 2nd and 3rd. This might thin out some of the "gamers" looking for pay day.
The sponsors contribution could be to help reduce the cost of entering the competition.
This would help make way for those on a budget and at the same time, we would see how many actually do shoot for the enjoyment of it.

It seems to me that the prize table just causes problems. So get rid of it.

 

[z7.jled]

First off, I am a new prs shooter, never been to a big match, limited in time, budget, equipment and practice opportunities

One thought that occurred to me reading this thread. Many of you want to test skills over equipment but are completely on board with a “find it, range it, shoot it” stage

That sounds like a lot of fun, but I can buy an accurate range. If we are anti gear race, then be consistent. One of the main reasons I have not tried to make it to core or k&m is I feel (perhaps incorrectly) that I need a tripod and range finder before i invest the time and money to shoot a big match. I fully recognize the need for tripods and range finders in the real world in combat or hunting- they are important tools that make a lot possible

Speaking to what can grow the sport imo, some sort of way to “help” the new shooters. Maybe a big target/little target concept or something like that. I don’t think it is “give everyone a trophy” if you provide an easier way for people to enjoy their time, who cares if the guy that has never shot beyond 300 yds and only has “try dope” from an app gets to shoot at 3 moa targets, or gets more time, or gets a spotter coaching his misses or all of the above?

And if you say “this is not for the big 2 day matches” you might be right, but if you have to choose between a 4 hour drive for a club match and a 6 hr drive to a 2 day match, what makes the most sense? Not everyone has good local options