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Fundamental frank vs the free recoilers

To add to my above comment, I've seen a progression in other shooting sports and witnessed it first hand with a lot of friends I've tried to get to matches, and it always goes the same.

Guys not competing: I'd like to try it but it looks hard or I'll look bad

Sanctioning body: We have classes now so you're only directly against people of similar skill

Guys not competing: Cool, if only they had a division were my Savage/High Point/Mossberg 500 was competitive I'd come to a match

Sanctioning body: We just added so many equipment divisions that you can show up with any gun and participate

Guys still not competing then move onto the standard excuses: Only gamers can win, it's not practical or relevant to my operator lifestyle, I'm busy every weekend till the end of time and matches take too long.

These guys love to look in from the outside and talk about making it more inclusive, but they aren't going to compete no matter how many concessions you make or how well run the matches are.
 
To add to my above comment, I've seen a progression in other shooting sports and witnessed it first hand with a lot of friends I've tried to get to matches, and it always goes the same.

Guys not competing: I'd like to try it but it looks hard or I'll look bad

Sanctioning body: We have classes now so you're only directly against people of similar skill

Guys not competing: Cool, if only they had a division were my Savage/High Point/Mossberg 500 was competitive I'd come to a match

Sanctioning body: We just added so many equipment divisions that you can show up with any gun and participate

Guys still not competing then move onto the standard excuses: Only gamers can win, it's not practical or relevant to my operator lifestyle, I'm busy every weekend till the end of time and matches take too long.

These guys love to look in from the outside and talk about making it more inclusive, but they aren't going to compete no matter how many concessions you make or how well run the matches are.

Nailed
 
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This is a great post, specifically this part:

"Also as a shooter and former action guy I can tell when an MD has put real thought into targetry, stage design and really appropriate an honest effort to make it practical. "

This is the biggest hangup for me and is what Frank is getting at by addressing the same simpleton, contrived stages, over and over. I think for mil guys it's hard to shoot stages that are seemingly random. Just made up. "..a popper at 323yds from the fence, then 2 on the coyote at 623..".etc. Many stages aren't built to test a skill bc no skills in this community have been dissected, quantified & defined, and then used as a basis to design a stage in order to test said skill. There's just a lot of monkey-see, monkey-do. "We saw this at the Heatstroke last year so we're going to shoot it at club matches to prepare", or "...why are we shooting off this stump where the green spray paint is?, ...because it is there... and it's hard., .... Oh, okay, cool". ooohhh! Tank traps are cool! Not because we are testing "multiple target-indexing", or "first round off a barricade kneeling position on 2 moa target at short range (350yds)", or some other skill that is universal reality that any shooter will need to meet success shooting a long gun. If you as a shooter understood what the match directer was asking of you skill wise and you understood the 4 individual skills involved in the one action that is "PRS Skills stage #____" then you'd be much better with it and not tempted to game it.

I've spoken about this to a few PRS shooters but it never goes over well. It's like explaining sex to a virgin. "I don't understand what you're saying so I'm going to take it as an insult!" They always insist that everyone shoots differently so you can't define individual skills. I think this is a symptom of the random nature that people learn in this sport. There is no common thread of foundational learning in which terms are doctrinalized so that words mean something. Can we all agree on what is timed fire vs. rapid fire? What is a neutral load vs. Free recoil? There is also the difference between those that can do and those that understand what they're doing. That difference is usually highlighted when you ask a good shooter to teach. If he can't explain the individual parts of the action in a succinct, transparent way using commonly understood terms but he can do it, chances are he just performs the action but doesn't understand what the key points of performance are; he doesn't understand the why. I know Frank will roll his eyes and say, this is what I've been saying all along!

I think that this sport is starting to get there. not in all the right places. We now have a commonly understood term for a target array: a troop line. Doesn't do us that much good having an established term for this formation of targets but we have that. We have been boxing in Free recoil earlier in this thread. I think some experienced shooters and good MD's intuitively understand how to build stages that demand the use of currently, un-codified skills and most shooters understand when they get tested and are missing that tool in their mental-rucksack. There's just not widely-accepted formula for building, shaping, and moderating average-joe's learning curve so they discover all the right fundamentals and skills at all the right time in their development, so you get guys asking about FR on a you tube post when perhaps they don't truly understand the concept of NPOA and recoil management. But you can't blame PRS for that. I think LR precision rifle shooting is in a renaissance. A boon. Never before have so many people had access to so many tools, equipment, rifles, and information soecific to LR PR shooting. It's out there everywhere. It's just not organized bc it's the age of social media, digital data, industry personalities vying for subscribers, sponsers, followers. It is just a function of the random chaos that is nature and reality.

I would agree with Frank that if a governing body provided the structure, there would be more parity within the sport. Imagine if you were shooting skills stages that had performance standards that matched or discerned shooter classes. You shot it in X seconds with X rounds or X misses. That is a B class shooter. You cleaned it - A class. You cleaned it with 30 secs to spare - master. And best of all, you get to compare yourself to the "Pros" without having to shoot the match with them. Yes, environmental conditions will make that a challenge but those same challenges are surmounted in IPSC and Highpower. You get classified in skill level at a task or action that is actually relevant and does translate to hunting, or zombie-apocalypses. You would relate to this and it would not be contrived.

But I realize this will probably never happen. Too many folks will hate the concept of forced structure. There is no center of gravity that can impose direction and purpose. And there's no common thread of shared understanding of fundamentals, tasks, and actions bc everyone is learning differently, at different paces, from different tribes. Which is why I say you have to accept PRS for what it is. If you don't like it, you have two choices. scream into the internet until your ears bleed, or move on.
LOL so true on so many levels. There was an attempt with the PRS skills stages but even then those were ran in so many different ways that as a qualifier it became useless. Ran different for a lot of reason most was match location and targetry. Not every match location has 75 yards width to play with at 400 yards. A lot of the other reasons are folks just don't like to be told what to do especially if they have been doing it a certain way for a long time.
 
This is a great post, specifically this part:

"Also as a shooter and former action guy I can tell when an MD has put real thought into targetry, stage design and really appropriate an honest effort to make it practical. "

This is the biggest hangup for me and is what Frank is getting at by addressing the same simpleton, contrived stages, over and over. I think for mil guys it's hard to shoot stages that are seemingly random. Just made up. "..a popper at 323yds from the fence, then 2 on the coyote at 623..".etc. Many stages aren't built to test a skill bc no skills in this community have been dissected, quantified & defined, and then used as a basis to design a stage in order to test said skill. There's just a lot of monkey-see, monkey-do. "We saw this at the Heatstroke last year so we're going to shoot it at club matches to prepare", or "...why are we shooting off this stump where the green spray paint is?, ...because it is there... and it's hard., .... Oh, okay, cool". ooohhh! Tank traps are cool! Not because we are testing "multiple target-indexing", or "first round off a barricade kneeling position on 2 moa target at short range (350yds)", or some other skill that is universal reality that any shooter will need to meet success shooting a long gun. If you as a shooter understood what the match directer was asking of you skill wise and you understood the 4 individual skills involved in the one action that is "PRS Skills stage #____" then you'd be much better with it and not tempted to game it.

I've spoken about this to a few PRS shooters but it never goes over well. It's like explaining sex to a virgin. "I don't understand what you're saying so I'm going to take it as an insult!" They always insist that everyone shoots differently so you can't define individual skills. I think this is a symptom of the random nature that people learn in this sport. There is no common thread of foundational learning in which terms are doctrinalized so that words mean something. Can we all agree on what is timed fire vs. rapid fire? What is a neutral load vs. Free recoil? There is also the difference between those that can do and those that understand what they're doing. That difference is usually highlighted when you ask a good shooter to teach. If he can't explain the individual parts of the action in a succinct, transparent way using commonly understood terms but he can do it, chances are he just performs the action but doesn't understand what the key points of performance are; he doesn't understand the why. I know Frank will roll his eyes and say, this is what I've been saying all along!

I think that this sport is starting to get there. not in all the right places. We now have a commonly understood term for a target array: a troop line. Doesn't do us that much good having an established term for this formation of targets but we have that. We have been boxing in Free recoil earlier in this thread. I think some experienced shooters and good MD's intuitively understand how to build stages that demand the use of currently, un-codified skills and most shooters understand when they get tested and are missing that tool in their mental-rucksack. There's just not widely-accepted formula for building, shaping, and moderating average-joe's learning curve so they discover all the right fundamentals and skills at all the right time in their development, so you get guys asking about FR on a you tube post when perhaps they don't truly understand the concept of NPOA and recoil management. But you can't blame PRS for that. I think LR precision rifle shooting is in a renaissance. A boon. Never before have so many people had access to so many tools, equipment, rifles, and information soecific to LR PR shooting. It's out there everywhere. It's just not organized bc it's the age of social media, digital data, industry personalities vying for subscribers, sponsers, followers. It is just a function of the random chaos that is nature and reality.

I would agree with Frank that if a governing body provided the structure, there would be more parity within the sport. Imagine if you were shooting skills stages that had performance standards that matched or discerned shooter classes. You shot it in X seconds with X rounds or X misses. That is a B class shooter. You cleaned it - A class. You cleaned it with 30 secs to spare - master. And best of all, you get to compare yourself to the "Pros" without having to shoot the match with them. Yes, environmental conditions will make that a challenge but those same challenges are surmounted in IPSC and Highpower. You get classified in skill level at a task or action that is actually relevant and does translate to hunting, or zombie-apocalypses. You would relate to this and it would not be contrived.

But I realize this will probably never happen. Too many folks will hate the concept of forced structure. There is no center of gravity that can impose direction and purpose. And there's no common thread of shared understanding of fundamentals, tasks, and actions bc everyone is learning differently, at different paces, from different tribes. Which is why I say you have to accept PRS for what it is. If you don't like it, you have two choices. scream into the internet until your ears bleed, or move on.
I like what you’re saying, but what if a MD just does what he likes and has unique ideas because they sound like fun for him to shoot too? Freakin’ MDs with minds of their own are the real problem. Or are they?

We here are a small local group with a limited range area and somewhat limited in our options. And yes, each person that runs one of our matches has slightly different ideas as to what makes a decent course of fire. Add to that our switchy winds at longer ranges and it’s a fun match, from my admittedly biased point of view.

The more skilled shooters will still do well, as it should be, but everyone has fun and is challenged at a level that they can handle. Some stages are designed to ensure that there are hits to be had at any skill level. Others are new and challenging to even the best shooters.

That sounds like reality to me.
 
It totally is reality. Which is why it is the way it is. Every match director has his own creative ideas. Because there's no common thread.

There's something for everyone regardless of their skill level. Can that not be done with a skill based intentional design?
Sure it can. I hate to be boring, but as has been pointed out before, most of the pistol based disciplines have already done it. It just necessarily involves more restriction and many more rules to accomplish. Kind of hard to have consistency without definition. For any definition to be effective, it must be specific. Specificity involves many rules. No real way around it.
 
I like what you’re saying, but what if a MD just does what he likes and has unique ideas because they sound like fun for him to shoot too? Freakin’ MDs with minds of their own are the real problem. Or are they?

We here are a small local group with a limited range area and somewhat limited in our options. And yes, each person that runs one of our matches has slightly different ideas as to what makes a decent course of fire. Add to that our switchy winds at longer ranges and it’s a fun match, from my admittedly biased point of view.

The more skilled shooters will still do well, as it should be, but everyone has fun and is challenged at a level that they can handle. Some stages are designed to ensure that there are hits to be had at any skill level. Others are new and challenging to even the best shooters.

That sounds like reality to me.
There are plenty of areas/ranges that are very small and require some creativity to make things interesting. The Upper Nisqually match in the PNW is just like that. Protected by 250' fir trees 600 yards long 75 yards wide the MDs there are still able to run 8-9 stage matches with 50 folks every 1st weekend of the month. The can do that because they are traveling shooters and get exposure across the country. The stages are practical in the fact that rarely is there what I call a circus stage. A circus stage entials shooting of of something doesn't exist in nature or reasonably mimics something that you would choose to shot from if the shot counted for a game animal or bad guy. That is kind of a lose definition that I use as a test when I set up a stage. Would I shoot at something with a heart beat from this? If not I find some thing else. Some of the stuff I see with clubs that don't get out much is intellectual in-beading. "This is how we do it" mode is in full effect.
 
@TonyTheTiger I had to laugh... I've seen that *exact* thing play out in another discipline. I've probably *been* that guy once or twice as well. Pretty sure most of us have.

At some point, it boils down to this: if they wanted to shoot, their ass would already be out there, regardless of whether there was a category for them or not. If they wanted to compete, they'd build or buy a rifle to fit the sport, rather than bitch about it not fitting their world-view.
 
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@TonyTheTiger
At some point, it boils down to this: if they wanted to shoot, their ass would already be out there, regardless of whether there was a category for them or not. If they wanted to compete, they'd build or buy a rifle to fit the sport, rather than bitch about it not fitting their world-view.
Exactly.
 
To add to my above comment, I've seen a progression in other shooting sports and witnessed it first hand with a lot of friends I've tried to get to matches, and it always goes the same.

Guys not competing: I'd like to try it but it looks hard or I'll look bad

Sanctioning body: We have classes now so you're only directly against people of similar skill

Guys not competing: Cool, if only they had a division were my Savage/High Point/Mossberg 500 was competitive I'd come to a match

Sanctioning body: We just added so many equipment divisions that you can show up with any gun and participate

Guys still not competing then move onto the standard excuses: Only gamers can win, it's not practical or relevant to my operator lifestyle, I'm busy every weekend till the end of time and matches take too long.

These guys love to look in from the outside and talk about making it more inclusive, but they aren't going to compete no matter how many concessions you make or how well run the matches are.
LOL yup pretty much. You left out fuck those guys they are assholes with jerseys
 
I honestly see what's going on with the PRS scene as the natural progression of the competitive environment given the rules, or lack thereof, that have been established by the PRS governing body. It's not necessarily a bad thing in my view, it's just what it's become. The discussion that is going on here is one that nearly parallels what occurred with USPSA as it grew. I'm also far from a frequent shooter of PRS matches, not because of the matches, but time constraints. I'd wonder what the implementation of a hit factor setup similar to what is used in USPSA, number of hits x time it took to shoot the stage. That would be a paradigm shift for certain. It would also be some PRS Match Directors dream as it would reduce the time a squad would spend on each stage. However, it may be difficult to implement as shots fired from other stages may be picked up.

I have a range that I'm in the process of getting up and running to provide local shooters with a place to shoot and compete, Cedar Fork Precision. As a local USPSA match director, I understand stage design is a time consuming process. With that being said, I also understand why we see the same stages over and over. I have several Missouri Steel Tactical Matches scheduled for 2019 and shooters will not see the same stage twice this season, unless it's a "Skills Stage". I've never been a fan of shooting off of something that I would never use in the field. I want a guy that has never shot at my range to not be at a significant disadvantage because the other competitors have shot the stage multiple times over. I plan to accomplish this with movement and progressively smaller targets. I, as a shooter, like to be required to think my way through a stage before I shoot it. There will be a mix of stages that a shooter can benefit from a "barricade bag" and there will be some that trying to move from the different positions with a huge bag attached to your rifle will slow you down too much.
 
Isn't it funny how long this thread lasted being about free recoil instead of the everything else that has been dragged up? The title of this thread is a proxy for, "hey guys, let's get together and hate on PRS!".

I used to think FR was a departure from "THE FUNDAMENTALS!!!". I now see it differently. The fundamentals are universal and perennial. That's why they are fundamental. There are certain things you just can't get away from as long as we are shooting rifled barrels that propel a spitzer bullet from a gas combustion, initiated by a ... etc, etc.. Sure, a 6oz Trigger Tech will mitigate a lot of trigger control error. A heavy, small caliber rifle will mitigate follow thru and recovery errors. And a cutting edge cnc lathe turned alloy solid with an ultra high BC will mitigate some wind estimation error. And at the same time, all those advancements have enabled us to shooter, faster, farther, and more accurately than we had previously.

The most important aspect of position as a MMS fundamental is NPOA. Does FR circumvent NPOA and position building? Not in my mind. You are just establishing a mechanical NPOA with the rifle. Shooting in the prone with a bipod also mitigates a lot of positional challenge but does that mean anyone that shoots in the prone is perpetrating fraud? (to borrow some of the melodramatics here). There is a shooters solution of time, target distance, and size in which standing offhand just isn't the answer. To the folks who are saying any idiot can be taught FR in 6 minutes and buy a hit...apparently not.

As far as tailoring the rifle for the technique, doesn't that happen in every high-level shooting sport? Is anyone accusing a top service rifle shooter who puts lead in the buttstock of their NM service rifle to enhance its balance for SO position of not having fundamentals? This stuff has been going on forever. Just not in the action shooting sport of Precision Rifle.

There are so many threads to pull on this discussion that it's no surprise that its easy to get off the topic. People argue if PRS is practical, some argue if its tactical. It is an action shooting sport. Easy. No. purely by its self, it is neither practical or tactical. Yes, you can extract some technique, knowledge, or experience that you learned in this sport to hunting or combat. Nothing wrong with that as long as you have the experience to be judicious about what it is that you take away. Just like IPSC and 3G. There is a reason SOF units sponsor action shooting sports for their units. One such SMU ran an IPSC match open to the public on the backside of their compound and students who were struggling in the MMS phase of their training course were encouraged to shoot the match.

PRS , for many, is just another sport or pastime for those fortunate enough to afford the American dream. It could be poker, golf, or fishing for those folks. Taking it too serious and getting offended that it doesn't define your definition of practical MMS is a futile effort. As such, you will not be able to convince your average top end shooter of what the "right way" is. They are not interested in your version. There are stages and styles that please the masses. And in reality that is a big part of the evolution of this sport. There are a lot more factors that drive stage design, prize tables, and shooting style than some puritanical concept of righteous execution of the same fundamentals. Getting shooters to your match is a big one. Despite the saber rattling on snipers Hide I'm willing to bet it isn't a big enough population to drive change. Namely bc many commenting probably aren't regular competitors. In fact, I wonder how many proponents of , "THE FUNDAMENTALS!!!" have actually received professional instruction of doctrinal MMS fundamentals from a credible institution...AND ...AND ...had to demonstrate a level of proficiency to be certified. It think this is why FR appears to some as a departure from the fundamental of position. Bc they don't recognize the universality of NPOA (the most important aspect of position building) executed in a unique way. So you're using a bag or barricade clamp instead of a sling. Big fucking deal. Its like fundamental Islamic groups arguing who is more true to their interpretation; factions fighting for power and influence.

I have also criticized PRS. For being insular and cultivating a one dimensional shooter. I engaged in a 30 page thread with Morgan Lamprecht and Rob1. They just took it as an attack to change "their" sport. It is also my sport, as much as 3G and IPSC is. And I was just trying to point out what other disciplines could offer if shooters cross trained. Totally failed to open any eyes. The reality is, you have to accept PRS (and NRL) for what it is. If you are bored and don't like it, move on. Period. Shoot the 2gun match at core, shoot some CD matches. Shoot that local F class match up in the mountains bc you can camp and fish with your buddies the night before. All the small suggestions of two sided barricades and complicated Kyl stages don't really sound any different to me. They are improvements in a small margin that won't aggregate into a substantial difference. Imo.

Hell, the proof is in the pudding. If one was deadset on proving PRS and FR wrong then go to a PRS match with a stock Remington 308 sporter (max 7lbs dry and 1.5 moa capable) and no bag or tripod, sling only. And beat at least 3 people proficient in FR shooting 16lb + 6mm's. Is it just a matter of folks buying points bc they don't know "THE FUNDAMENTALS!!!" or do these single discipline rifles and gear really do enable a capability that didn't exist. I mean one could argue that one side of the argument is trying to reverse engineer the test to validate their trainings.

Or a person could start their own league or series based on their ideas of stages and give it 2 years. If they can divest PRS and NRL of enough of their shooters to make theirs something that will last, i guess they were right.
SOLID!