Anyone have experience or thoughts about G3s as 700 yd guns?
- Thread starter jrl5678
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Re: G3/91 clone
You are going to have to dig a little deeper with your information. What are you looking to do with a HK 91 at that distance and what optics are you going to use? Can the rifle hit a target at that distance, sure the 308 in that battle rifle can get that far but what are you looking for accuracy? With decent optics I can see it being used but effectiveness I can't tell you because that is up to you. At 100 yards that rifle is 2-3 MOA (2-3 inch) groups depending on ammunition so think what that will be at 700. I have had a H&K 93 that was a great battle rifle and shot 2-3 MOA at 100 yards but chewed the brass up badly - fluted the brass to the point of non use for reloading. I am not sure what you are going to do with it so more input will help others answer your question.
You are going to have to dig a little deeper with your information. What are you looking to do with a HK 91 at that distance and what optics are you going to use? Can the rifle hit a target at that distance, sure the 308 in that battle rifle can get that far but what are you looking for accuracy? With decent optics I can see it being used but effectiveness I can't tell you because that is up to you. At 100 yards that rifle is 2-3 MOA (2-3 inch) groups depending on ammunition so think what that will be at 700. I have had a H&K 93 that was a great battle rifle and shot 2-3 MOA at 100 yards but chewed the brass up badly - fluted the brass to the point of non use for reloading. I am not sure what you are going to do with it so more input will help others answer your question.
Re: G3/91 clone
If your after smacking steel and not precision shooting yes a good sample will do your distance. I've had a HK91 for about thirty years and find it to be a good battle rifle. Biggest handicap is the trigger. Be ready to spend some money on a trigger job. It throws brass into the next zip code and is hard on it. Scope mounting is problematic but doable. They are rugged and dependable. The ergonomics and I don't get along but some people like them. If you can afford it get an AR platform. If not you could do worse.
If your after smacking steel and not precision shooting yes a good sample will do your distance. I've had a HK91 for about thirty years and find it to be a good battle rifle. Biggest handicap is the trigger. Be ready to spend some money on a trigger job. It throws brass into the next zip code and is hard on it. Scope mounting is problematic but doable. They are rugged and dependable. The ergonomics and I don't get along but some people like them. If you can afford it get an AR platform. If not you could do worse.
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Re: G3/91 clone
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrl5678</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone have experience or thoughts about G3s as 700 yd guns? </div></div>
Yeah, under ideal conditions at that range you can expect something like: minute-of-truck accuracy. As stated, it is a battle rifle and should be held to such standards (2.0-3.5MOA). Some people have good luck with the PTR's and the right ammo getting 1-1.5MOA. Optics are a pain in the ass for this platform....probably just shy of the M14 in terms of frustration.
While I love my 93 and 94 to death, the roller lock (a fancy word for blow back) is old, nearly obsolete technology. There are reasons why the PSG-1, MSG-90, and 21E (the 3 that could make that distance) cost a fortune.
If you want one, buy one and love it for what it is.
If you have the coin and time do a quality MSG/PSG build, you can probably build something to get you there. Just know that a half-assed build will leave you nothing more than a huge, expensive paper weight (see: BlackUMP). And realize you can buy a brand new AI AW for what one of those "decent" clone builds will run you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrl5678</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone have experience or thoughts about G3s as 700 yd guns? </div></div>
Yeah, under ideal conditions at that range you can expect something like: minute-of-truck accuracy. As stated, it is a battle rifle and should be held to such standards (2.0-3.5MOA). Some people have good luck with the PTR's and the right ammo getting 1-1.5MOA. Optics are a pain in the ass for this platform....probably just shy of the M14 in terms of frustration.
While I love my 93 and 94 to death, the roller lock (a fancy word for blow back) is old, nearly obsolete technology. There are reasons why the PSG-1, MSG-90, and 21E (the 3 that could make that distance) cost a fortune.
If you want one, buy one and love it for what it is.
If you have the coin and time do a quality MSG/PSG build, you can probably build something to get you there. Just know that a half-assed build will leave you nothing more than a huge, expensive paper weight (see: BlackUMP). And realize you can buy a brand new AI AW for what one of those "decent" clone builds will run you.
Re: G3/91 clone
The PTR-91 rifles are excellent battle rifle clones and the best of the HK clone rifles (STAY AWAY FROM Century, etc. as they are just pure garbage). The ones I have shot have been extremely reliable with a wide range of ammunition and usually capable of sub-2MOA accuracy with decent ammo/shooter (NOT foreign mil surplus, etc.). With a good trigger job (Williams or Springfield) and optics, they are capable of slightly better than that. I have also used the JLD/PTR-91 receivers for custom builds on HK clone rifles with great success (especially my MSG-90 clone), but like Pointblank said...it gets damned expensive in a hurry and you HAVE GOT TO DO IT RIGHT or you'll have problems from reliability to accuracy and generally across the board. I don't know about it costing you AI AW money to build one, but if you want to buy one commercially ready to roll, you will be looking at roughly $4k.
On any HK91 or clone, a $30 port buffer will resolve 99% of the issue of brass getting beat to hell and with it getting thrown 25' away from where you are shooting. I run them on my all of my HK rifles, including my MSG-90 clone built on a JLD/PTR-91 receiver. I reload/reuse brass fired out of these port-buffer-equipped rifles all that time with no problems.
Your intentions with any HK91 clone rifle at 700yds dictate whether it is a good option for you, but in terms of function and accuracy for what the rifle was designed to do...they are great rifles.
The PTR-91 rifles are excellent battle rifle clones and the best of the HK clone rifles (STAY AWAY FROM Century, etc. as they are just pure garbage). The ones I have shot have been extremely reliable with a wide range of ammunition and usually capable of sub-2MOA accuracy with decent ammo/shooter (NOT foreign mil surplus, etc.). With a good trigger job (Williams or Springfield) and optics, they are capable of slightly better than that. I have also used the JLD/PTR-91 receivers for custom builds on HK clone rifles with great success (especially my MSG-90 clone), but like Pointblank said...it gets damned expensive in a hurry and you HAVE GOT TO DO IT RIGHT or you'll have problems from reliability to accuracy and generally across the board. I don't know about it costing you AI AW money to build one, but if you want to buy one commercially ready to roll, you will be looking at roughly $4k.
On any HK91 or clone, a $30 port buffer will resolve 99% of the issue of brass getting beat to hell and with it getting thrown 25' away from where you are shooting. I run them on my all of my HK rifles, including my MSG-90 clone built on a JLD/PTR-91 receiver. I reload/reuse brass fired out of these port-buffer-equipped rifles all that time with no problems.
Your intentions with any HK91 clone rifle at 700yds dictate whether it is a good option for you, but in terms of function and accuracy for what the rifle was designed to do...they are great rifles.
Re: G3/91 clone
PTR Super Sniper. I vouch for nothing though.
http://www.thearmsexchange.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10&Itemid=15
PTR Super Sniper. I vouch for nothing though.
http://www.thearmsexchange.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10&Itemid=15
Re: G3/91 clone
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBoss0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PTR Super Sniper. I vouch for nothing though.
http://www.thearmsexchange.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10&Itemid=15 </div></div>
I remember when the American Rifleman reviewed the HK PSG many years ago and it was reported to have sub MOA ability.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBoss0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PTR Super Sniper. I vouch for nothing though.
http://www.thearmsexchange.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10&Itemid=15 </div></div>
I remember when the American Rifleman reviewed the HK PSG many years ago and it was reported to have sub MOA ability.
Re: G3/91 clone
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember when the American Rifleman reviewed the HK PSG many years ago and it was reported to have sub MOA ability. </div></div>
And so they do. The accuracy standard that HK guarantees with all PSG-1's is 50 rounds of match ammo into an 80mm (3.14") circle at 300m. 50 rounds...not a 3-shot or even a 5-shot group. I have never seen one that would not exceed that guarantee with proper ammo and a shooter that knew what they were doing, but the money you pay to get it is excessive to put it mildly unless you have unlimited funds and no other options. The problems with the PSG-1 is that an off-the-shelf, modern semi-auto 308 AR-variant at 1/6th the price (or cheaper) is capable of meeting, if not exceeding the same level of accuracy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember when the American Rifleman reviewed the HK PSG many years ago and it was reported to have sub MOA ability. </div></div>
And so they do. The accuracy standard that HK guarantees with all PSG-1's is 50 rounds of match ammo into an 80mm (3.14") circle at 300m. 50 rounds...not a 3-shot or even a 5-shot group. I have never seen one that would not exceed that guarantee with proper ammo and a shooter that knew what they were doing, but the money you pay to get it is excessive to put it mildly unless you have unlimited funds and no other options. The problems with the PSG-1 is that an off-the-shelf, modern semi-auto 308 AR-variant at 1/6th the price (or cheaper) is capable of meeting, if not exceeding the same level of accuracy.
Re: G3/91 clone
Thanks for all the input. I am looking for punching holes in paper and banging steel when I can. I like the look of the PTR super sniper. I do not know what "brand new AI AW" means well AI AW really.
Thanks for all the input. I am looking for punching holes in paper and banging steel when I can. I like the look of the PTR super sniper. I do not know what "brand new AI AW" means well AI AW really.
Re: G3/91 clone
I had delusions of building a MSG clone for a long time and truthfully would still love to have one but they are far from the best platform for precision and unless you're prepared to shell out the big $$.
Plusses.
- CDI
- Cheap mags
- Reliable
Negatives
- Tall. Going prone with even a 5 round mag still leaves you fairly high up due to the grip/receiver height
- Expensive
- Scope mounts. Even the lowest require at least a 1.5 - 2" riser unless you have mounts welded to the receiver and even then you’re somewhat limited to bell size.
- G3 triggers suck unless you get a Springfield trigger job or spend the $6-800 on a MSG/PSG trigger pack
- Do not lend themselves to silencer use. Lots of port noise, no single shot capability, locking piece may need tuned to your load/suppressor
After considering all these points, I went with a really nice LRB M14 with a mid weight and have been a happy camper. Of course YMMV.
I had delusions of building a MSG clone for a long time and truthfully would still love to have one but they are far from the best platform for precision and unless you're prepared to shell out the big $$.
Plusses.
- CDI
- Cheap mags
- Reliable
Negatives
- Tall. Going prone with even a 5 round mag still leaves you fairly high up due to the grip/receiver height
- Expensive
- Scope mounts. Even the lowest require at least a 1.5 - 2" riser unless you have mounts welded to the receiver and even then you’re somewhat limited to bell size.
- G3 triggers suck unless you get a Springfield trigger job or spend the $6-800 on a MSG/PSG trigger pack
- Do not lend themselves to silencer use. Lots of port noise, no single shot capability, locking piece may need tuned to your load/suppressor
After considering all these points, I went with a really nice LRB M14 with a mid weight and have been a happy camper. Of course YMMV.
Re: G3/91 clone
just a tip. CDNN has a special allotment of PTR made G3 spec rifles available for $900
just a tip. CDNN has a special allotment of PTR made G3 spec rifles available for $900
Re: G3/91 clone
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrl5678</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not know what "brand new AI AW" means well AI AW really.
</div></div>
AI is Accuracy International. AW is a model of rifle they sell.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrl5678</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not know what "brand new AI AW" means well AI AW really.
</div></div>
AI is Accuracy International. AW is a model of rifle they sell.
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