Gaming the NRL-22 Offhand Stages - does anyone GAF?

Cowpokey

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<snip> What I said in this thread is that I’ve beat my fair share of Vudoos and RimXs. <snip>
You have quite the opinion of yourself. I thought I spelled it out previously, but your ego / equipment envy keeps getting the best of you. You've NEVER ONCE beaten other equipment, if you've beaten anything it was the other shooters. Give it a rest...
 

22 Junkie Jer

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Starbuck, what you said in your last post on that thread was 100% gaslighting. While you didn’t call me out specifically by name.. you were talking shit about me behind my back, you literally called me “the shitter”. That was chicken shit. Nothing in the past should’ve led down this road. Making memes is petty. Talking poorly of someone behind their back is cowardly. And, you didn’t have to gumption to call me that to my face.

I owned what I did to your disapproval. I made a point of that. I also explained a number of times that I saw this same position allowed at the championship. If it’s allowed there, why wouldn’t it be allowed at a local match? And if it was cleared by the MD before the match began, why did you feel it necessary to put either of us on blast on the hide? To be honest, when I saw it happen in front of me, I thought it was a clever bend of the rule. I didn’t bash the shooter who did it. I didn’t leave the match with a disgust for him. I shot poorly at the Championship match, but I had no ill feelings for anyone other than myself.

Here is where you and I differ, you saw something you didn’t like.. and you want to change the entire system to fit your interpretation of how things should be. Talk about having a sense of self importance.

I shoot for fun. I compete to win. I value seeing a shooter think of something outside the box. I watch, I learn, I adapt. I enjoy my time at the range with friends and family. We keep our match fun. If you don’t like the way we shoot at our match, then by all means save yourself the anguish, and go to a different match where your interpretation IS the rule. Or, start your own NRL22 Club. That’s an option.

If you’re going to be competing this season in NRL22, prepare yourself to see things that you don’t agree with. Prepare to see gamers do things that you don’t like. Prepare to see things that will make you go “hmmm.. I should’ve tried that”. I know I’ve seen lots of guys do lots of things that gave me that exact thought. But I don’t get bitter about it. I learn from it.

I know I’m not the best marksmen in the game Starbuck. I’ve had my butt kicked plenty of times at these bigger matches, but I’m no slouch either. For the time I have invested in this game, I’m doing pretty well. I shot my first match in May of 20. I’ve been beat by guys shooting Vudoos, and RimX’s.. but, I’ve beaten more guys shooting those rifles than I’ve been beat by them. I’m happy for the people who beat me, and I’m encouraging and hopeful to see the guys I beat shoot better at the next match.

I’ll be sure to run my positions by you in the future, to see if you approve when you’re at our club. Maybe Our MD should just defer to you as the MD when you come out? Because I’m sure neither of us want to be the subject of another bad blood post by you when you see something that you don’t like. I’m going to continue to invest time in training. I’m going to continue to invest time training others. I’m going to focus on trying to win matches and learn from shooters who outsmart me. What I’m not going to do, is try to change the game because I don’t agree with a specific rule.

We’re different people. We see this world, and this game through different lenses. You shoot your way, I’ll shoot mine. We’ll let our scores do the talking.
 

SanPatHogger

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I'm going to practice shooting standing straight up
I'm going to practice shooting while "shitting"
I'm going to find out what is allowed at a match "when I go shoot a NRL22 match" and I'll shoot whichever I do better or whichever is legal.

That's what I got out of all this. Shoot everything as good as you can.
 

Starbuck

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Starbuck, what you said in your last post on that thread was 100% gaslighting. While you didn’t call me out specifically by name.. you were talking shit about me behind my back, you literally called me “the shitter”. That was chicken shit. Nothing in the past should’ve led down this road. Making memes is petty. Talking poorly of someone behind their back is cowardly. And, you didn’t have to gumption to call me that to my face.

I owned what I did to your disapproval. I made a point of that. I also explained a number of times that I saw this same position allowed at the championship. If it’s allowed there, why wouldn’t it be allowed at a local match? And if it was cleared by the MD before the match began, why did you feel it necessary to put either of us on blast on the hide? To be honest, when I saw it happen in front of me, I thought it was a clever bend of the rule. I didn’t bash the shooter who did it. I didn’t leave the match with a disgust for him. I shot poorly at the Championship match, but I had no ill feelings for anyone other than myself.

Here is where you and I differ, you saw something you didn’t like.. and you want to change the entire system to fit your interpretation of how things should be. Talk about having a sense of self importance.

I shoot for fun. I compete to win. I value seeing a shooter think of something outside the box. I watch, I learn, I adapt. I enjoy my time at the range with friends and family. We keep our match fun. If you don’t like the way we shoot at our match, then by all means save yourself the anguish, and go to a different match where your interpretation IS the rule. Or, start your own NRL22 Club. That’s an option.

If you’re going to be competing this season in NRL22, prepare yourself to see things that you don’t agree with. Prepare to see gamers do things that you don’t like. Prepare to see things that will make you go “hmmm.. I should’ve tried that”. I know I’ve seen lots of guys do lots of things that gave me that exact thought. But I don’t get bitter about it. I learn from it.

I know I’m not the best marksmen in the game Starbuck. I’ve had my butt kicked plenty of times at these bigger matches, but I’m no slouch either. For the time I have invested in this game, I’m doing pretty well. I shot my first match in May of 20. I’ve been beat by guys shooting Vudoos, and RimX’s.. but, I’ve beaten more guys shooting those rifles than I’ve been beat by them. I’m happy for the people who beat me, and I’m encouraging and hopeful to see the guys I beat shoot better at the next match.

I’ll be sure to run my positions by you in the future, to see if you approve when you’re at our club. Maybe Our MD should just defer to you as the MD when you come out? Because I’m sure neither of us want to be the subject of another bad blood post by you when you see something that you don’t like. I’m going to continue to invest time in training. I’m going to continue to invest time training others. I’m going to focus on trying to win matches and learn from shooters who outsmart me. What I’m not going to do, is try to change the game because I don’t agree with a specific rule.

We’re different people. We see this world, and this game through different lenses. You shoot your way, I’ll shoot mine. We’ll let our scores do the talking.
I'm going to stop following and posting in this thread, as I think it's been going downhill for a while, and is now on Page 5. I also believe I have said everything I have to say on the topic, and stand by what I have posted.

I'm not going to address your comments in your post I am quoting. If you'd like we can talk about this face to face when we see each other at the Palisade NRL-X match. I'll be there Friday afternoon and will look you up.
 

Topstrap

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Spirit of the problem. Shame every exacting detail has to be written. Maybe if you have a "standing" stage make it so movement is involved and movement has to be done in the position it was shot by the shooter. That could get interesting. Creativity is good and helps improve us but sometimes it isn't what was intended when it was set up.

Topstrap
 

r3plicator

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There it is then, the empty nutsacks are at the national MD level.

I don't know man. While I personally define standing to mean erect/upright, I wouldn't publicly insult a person's manhood just because they saw it differently.

I think a lot of what draws folks to NRL22 is the spirit of fun. That's what drew me to it. Sure, we're all competing but I'm only ever competing with myself.

I think think the challenge is trying to keep the hardcore competitors happy while still maintaining a welcoming environment for those who just want to have fun with their buddies.
 

r3plicator

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I'm going to practice shooting standing straight up
I'm going to practice shooting while "shitting"
I'm going to find out what is allowed at a match "when I go shoot a NRL22 match" and I'll shoot whichever I do better or whichever is legal.

That's what I got out of all this. Shoot everything as good as you can.
Just for fun, I tried the "shitting" position yesterday. After all the drama in this thread, I was expecting it to be easy.

It wasn't! At least, not for me.
 
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Schütze

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I don't know man. While I personally define standing to mean erect/upright, I wouldn't publicly insult a person's manhood just because they saw it differently.

I think a lot of what draws folks to NRL22 is the spirit of fun. That's what drew me to it. Sure, we're all competing but I'm only ever competing with myself.

I think think the challenge is trying to keep the hardcore competitors happy while still maintaining a welcoming environment for those who just want to have fun with their buddies.
I think you got it right, I will try not to pay attention from now on to the "gamers". It's fun and a hobby and should stay that way.
My apologies if I offended anyone, I got pretty upset that people argue the word standing.
 

orkan

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I got pretty upset that people argue the word standing.
The truth remains the truth. Don't let other people's refusal to keep to the truth, affect your observance of it.

In some places in the south, these are all "coke." Doesn't mean its the truth.
well-soda-videoSixteenByNineJumbo1600.jpg


Yet this thread isn't talking about truth. It's talking about what people can and can not get away with in competition. That definition is the sole responsibility of the governing body of the sport. Their entire reason for existence is to provide a structure within which to compete. If they can not create that structure to the satisfaction of the competitors, then they need not exist. Competitors shouldn't be arguing over it. Competitors should be demanding a ruling from the governing authority.

Seek truth. Be kind to each other. Compete in the spirit that allows you to feel as pure as you desire.
 

Just Chuck

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    The truth remains the truth. Don't let other people's refusal to keep to the truth, affect your observance of it.
    That definition is the sole responsibility of the governing body of the sport. Their entire reason for existence is to provide a structure within which to compete. If they can not create that structure to the satisfaction of the competitors, then they need not exist. Competitors shouldn't be arguing over it. Competitors should be demanding a ruling from the governing authority.
    +1 ^
     
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    accurate obsession

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    At the end of the day, maybe I'm wrong, NRL22 was supposed to be a gateway into shooting. More low key, low tech, fun, to draw people in. Yea, human nature steps in and we're all going to push the envelope. Now that NRL22X and PRS are in place let that be the all out gamer heaven and keep NRL22 less intense, if that is even possible at this point.
     

    Schütze

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    The truth remains the truth. Don't let other people's refusal to keep to the truth, affect your observance of it.
    That's my "issue" I'll need to work on. So many people refuse to keep the truth these day's, this sometimes makes one questioning himself... even knowing they are wrong doesn't make it easy to accept them.
     

    orkan

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    That's my "issue" I'll need to work on. So many people refuse to keep the truth these day's, this sometimes makes one questioning himself... even knowing they are wrong doesn't make it easy to accept them.
    I understand. This may help you. Read Romans 14, 1-13

    Your peace is right there.
     

    hlee

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    The truth is that these organizations would not exist without top level competitors, and the rules are written with them in mind. The organizations are scared of running off those competitors. Just look at the kerfuffle from the “gamer plates” just last year.

    The squatty potty position was allowed at nationals, so the NRL is either complicit or was caught so flat footed they just said “f it.” It is possible that this will be addressed, though unintended consequences are unintended- see gamer plates and the new rules, referenced above.

    But, no written rules were broken by “the shitter,” even if some feelings were hurt.

    They say “don’t hate the player, hate the game” though the specific player is making that difficult.
     
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    samb300

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    Again, saying no rules were broken and the rule book was insufficient is laughable.

    The rule states "Standing unsupported position must have both feet on the ground."

    Please, anyone out there, ANYONE, find a definition of "standing" which involves the person squatting.

    Does a rule need to be broken down into word-by-word dictionary meanings?
     
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    hlee

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    Again, as written, the rule defines the position.

    Name of position- Standing unsupported.
    Definition- Both feet on the ground.

    You can read more into the rules. You can say “everyone knows what ‘standing’ means.” But, it doesn’t matter how you feel or what you think you know. Games have rules, and only the written rules matter.
     

    hlee

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    Really that difficult?

    This wouldn't help, he would still be twisting the rules.

    You are inferring a definition that is not written into the rules. The rule defines the position.

    We all think we know the definition of standing. But, what we think we know doesn’t matter. The rule says nothing about the disposition of any part of the shooters body or gear, other than the feet. Because the rule only specifies the disposition of the feet, it is only the feet that matter when determining rule compliance. As such, the shooter is in compliance with the rule so long as both of the shooters feet are on the ground.

    Rule compliance is an ever escalating battle between the game and the player (and coach). Every major organization increases the verbiage of their rule book- every year, amd potentially mid season- to plug unforeseen gaps that were exploited. This is not unique to shooting, and shooting is not immune because shooters are somehow more honorable or rational than foot/basket/base/etc ball players.

    The rule sucks. It is written poorly. It is easily exploited. But, the NRL doesn’t seem to care. Hate the game.
     

    orkan

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    Hate the game.
    You could also leave the game.

    People should consider their own mental health. It's not healthy to spite other people, and so if people are "cheating" from your perspective, and if the governing body will not act, the only responsible thing to do is leave the competition/match/sport. Eventually, equilibrium will be established where the competitors and the governing body are in a relative state of agreement. Though that tends to take some time. Sometimes significant time.
     
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    beetroot

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    I dont see how the rule is poorly written, if the rule book needs to define every single english word they have used then you'd have to question the sanity of those reading the rules.

    What really is the problem is the way the rule has been interpretted and enforced, I can't see how any MD could have allowed the squat position but now that it's a thing it needs to be decided on a higher level whether or not it's allowed and put an end to any bickering.

    Personally if I were an MD and had people constantly pushing rules like this I'd just start banning people from my events.
    If you want to game every single thing that's written in the rules/stage rules then you can just go away.

    Maybe they need a clause in the rules that says "standard dictionary definition are to be implied unless stated otherwise".
     
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    Kg33

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    The x match in Montana posted a video with a loser doing this at 40sec with a bag resting on his knee.
     
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    hlee

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    I dont see how the rule is poorly written, if the rule book needs to define every single english word they have used then you'd have to question the sanity of those reading the rules.

    What really is the problem is the way the rule has been interpretted and enforced, I can't see how any MD could have allowed the squat position but now that it's a thing it needs to be decided on a higher level whether or not it's allowed and put an end to any bickering.

    Personally if I were an MD and had people constantly pushing rules like this I'd just start banning people from my events.
    If you want to game every single thing that's written in the rules/stage rules then you can just go away.

    Maybe they need a clause in the rules that says "standard dictionary definition are to be implied unless stated otherwise".
    The bolded portion is the issue. A poor rule is a rule open to interpretation. It is obvious, even to you, that this rule is open to interpretation. Look up the rule covering a forward pass in Americal Football. No interpretation. What is a goal in Soccer? No interpretation. In or out on a Tennis court? No interpretation.
     

    phlegethon

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    The bolded portion is the issue. A poor rule is a rule open to interpretation. It is obvious, even to you, that this rule is open to interpretation. Look up the rule covering a forward pass in Americal Football. No interpretation. What is a goal in Soccer? No interpretation. In or out on a Tennis court? No interpretation.
    Language always requires interpretation.

    It’s hilarious to me the different standards people have for interpreting things like the second amendment (very literal, no context or clever arguments allowed) and match rules (words have no meaning unless it’s enumerated at book length).
     
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    beetroot

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    The bolded portion is the issue. A poor rule is a rule open to interpretation. It is obvious, even to you, that this rule is open to interpretation. Look up the rule covering a forward pass in Americal Football. No interpretation. What is a goal in Soccer? No interpretation. In or out on a Tennis court? No interpretation.
    I still struggle to believe that the word standing, something people have being doing since before they learnt to talk needs clarification.
     

    Phatcow

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    I just came here to say, that's called the rice patty squat.

    It's a legitimate position, but it's not standing. (Have done it as an acceptable "kneeling" position with Project Appleseed, a CMP associated org)
     
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    soupsandwich

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    Mis-quoted. Please ignore
    The funny one I remember was a fixed structure barricade and hard angle targets.
    To stay within the boundaries, you had to really contort and lean to get a shot on the targets. One guy came up to that point, grabbed the wooden stud with his left hand, leaned out to have a great angle onto the targets. Everyone was "holy shit!, is that allowed?" Well, yes as his feet didn't go over the line.
    I personally call that one, thinking, as in thinking man's game
    That would depend on whether the support he grabbed was "inside" or "outside" the shooting area. Usually, walls are attached to the fault lines, therefore they are outside the shooting area and thus cannot be used for support.
     
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    Ruff 364

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    The squatty potty position was allowed at nationals, so the NRL is either complicit or was caught so flat footed they just said “f it.” It is possible that this will be addressed, though unintended consequences are unintended- see gamer plates and the new rules, referenced above.

    The National match has zero bearing on the regular season NRL22. The NM MD has complete say on his match, it's not held the rules of the season. If so, it would be a 100 yard and in type of affair.
     

    hlee

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    Kinda like saying the NCAA doesn’t have any say in the National chsmpionship college football game because it is held at a “bowl” site. The NRL championship is the NRL championship.
     

    carbonbased

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    This irritates me enough from a language perspective that I haven’t even read through all of this thread before being impelled to comment.

    People, THEY ARE NOT DEFINING the word “STANDING” IN THE RULES. They are saying one must stand on the GROUND and not upon something else.

    The definition of the word “stand” is eye-meltingly crystal clear and please shut the F up about how it isn’t.

    Jesus Christ people. If either the MDs or shooters think there's even a FRACTION of daylight to slither through the rule and game it, then they need to bone up on how the English language actually functions from a grammar and sentence structure perspective.

    If they were redefining the word “standing,” it would read something like, “Standing is hereby redefined in this rule book as being upon your two feet and is position independent. While standing in this competition, one must have both feet upon the ground.”

    FFS
     
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    carbonbased

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    Sorry for being rather, uh, indelicate, but this happens to be in my wheelhouse.

    There are lots of engineers on this site that have garnered my respect. I absolutely defer to them in matters in which they eat, breathe, and perhaps even bathe in daily.

    I wish I was good at math, physics, and a myriad bunch of other subjects but god fucking damnit I know what I’m talking about here (and even still, I make language errors all of the time…making errors is something we all do. Defending obvious errors is…less than good).

    Pant pant pant pant… 💨

    I don’t even compete. I have no dog in this fight. But if any MD hears someone saying that rule is ambiguous, IT GODDAMN ISN’T as a function of SENTENCE STRUCTURE AND GRAMMAR ALONE.

    So in other news, how about those Packers?
     
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    carbonbased

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    For example, here is the whole paragraph from the official rules. One understands sentences partly by seeing them in the context of the paragraph.

    Note the header does not read, “Definitions of Positional Shooting”.

    C. Equipment and Positional Shooting
    1. (Stuff we’re not discussing)
    2. Standing unsupported position must have both feet on the ground. In the unsupported kneeling position, the shooter must have one knee on the ground. The other knee and one or both feet may be on the ground. In the unsupported seated position, the shooter must have their butt on the ground. Both knees and feet may be on the ground. In the prone unsupported position, it is never acceptable to have any part of the rifle or any part of the hand resting on the ground. The ground includes a mat, tarp, bag, glove, coat etc.

    Ok, now broken up per shooting position so it’s easier to read:

    C. Equipment and Positional Shooting
    1. (Stuff we’re not discussing)
    2. Standing unsupported position must have both feet on the ground.
    In the unsupported kneeling position, the shooter must have one knee on the ground. The other knee and one or both feet may be on the ground.
    In the unsupported seated position, the shooter must have their butt on the ground. Both knees and feet may be on the ground.
    In the prone unsupported position, it is never acceptable to have any part of the rifle or any part of the hand resting on the ground.
    The ground includes a mat, tarp, bag, glove, coat etc.
    ANALYSIS–What’s throwing some people off is a little thing called an “implied subject.” Remember the magic word CONTEXT.

    Here we go:

    The sentences go sort of like this:
    (in x position) (shooter) (must have) (y part) (on/off ground)

    It pains me a little to say this, as it is obvious that some English course(s) didn’t stick too well along the way, but the sentence that is causing some controversy IS NOT constructed wrong. Having implied subjects (i.e. not written) and the like in sentences is very commonplace. See here.

    Implied subject in action:
    (In the) Standing unsupported position (the shooter) must have both feet on the ground.
    No implied subject in the below, but they provide context:
    In the unsupported kneeling position, the shooter must have one knee on the ground.
    In the unsupported seated position, the shooter must have their butt on the ground.

    But, given the intended audience’s misunderstandings, perhaps the rule-writers should avoid certain implied subject constructions.

    I’m not sure why the writer of the rules felt the need to get a tiny bit fancy. Maybe they were getting bored. I’m not giving him the Nobel Prize in Literature, but it’s serviceable.

    Nowhere in the quoted rules do the rules actually define any position. They just state that, per position, what must or must not touch the ground. They do, however, take a stab at what defines the “ground.”

    The positions are assumed to be universally agreed upon, just like the basic definitions of commonplace words are universally agreed upon.

    There is literally no way the writer meant:
    Standing unsupported position (is redefined in its entirety as and ONLY as) must have both feet on the ground (and the rest of the positions aren’t defined but for some stupid reason this one is, and is written with a sort of bizarro-Superman implied predicate and sounds like a retarded five year-old on meth).

    Sorry for spouting off but this madness has got to ✋ . This isn’t even a close call.

    Please use this logic to kill off that less-than-wrinkled-brain interpretation for the good of all mankind.

    Hopefully there is no need to continue.
     
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    carbonbased

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    So, in short, TL;DR:

    The sentence in question is getting misinterpreted because people are excising it from its paragraph & paragraph header, and then not understanding how implied subjects work. Again, see here.

    Implied subject in action:
    (In the) Standing unsupported position (the shooter) must have both feet on the ground.
    What is a little fuzzy is the rulebook’s definition of “the ground.”

    I suppose some chowderhead could show up to a match and claim the “etc” part of the ground’s definition could include, oh, say, a tripod, or a tractor, or an aircraft carrier, or something else completely outside the spirit of the sport.

    Speaking of sportsmanship, within the rules there is an open-ended section titled, “SECTION 6, Sportsmanship”. Take a gander. Unsportsman-like conduct is like porn; hard to define but most know it when they see it.

    According to Section 6, MDs are free to penalize anyone (up to a match DQ) for unsportsman-like conduct. Up to MD’s discretion.

    I suggest they exercise this Section’s power when undue haggling commences.
     
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    hlee

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  • Jul 14, 2012
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    5,926
    43
    TX
    The way the western legal system works is that if something is not expressly illegal, then it is legal. The only thing that the entire rule book says about the standing unsupported position is that the shooter must have both feet on the ground. It says nothing about the disposition of anything other than the feel, in any section of the rule set.

    Regardless of whether you think the rule is hot garbage or the most eloquent piece of prose ever to be put to paper, the twisting of the rule will continue until it is clarified.
     

    carbonbased

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch—
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    Minuteman
  • Jul 26, 2018
    789
    594
    Minnesota
    The way the western legal system works is that if something is not expressly illegal, then it is legal. The only thing that the entire rule book says about the standing unsupported position is that the shooter must have both feet on the ground. It says nothing about the disposition of anything other than the feel, in any section of the rule set.

    Regardless of whether you think the rule is hot garbage or the most eloquent piece of prose ever to be put to paper, the twisting of the rule will continue until it is clarified.
    I see the implied subject construct is beyond you.