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Gas Prices.

Maggot

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jul 27, 2007
    25,911
    29,203
    Virginia
    A long but worthwile read. Mabey new jobs on the pipelines.


    By Robert Campbell Robert Campbell – Wed Mar 9, 1:41 pm ET
    MEXICO CITY (Reuters) – Americans worried about the pain of $100 U.S. oil should worry a lot more.

    Although $100 oil is the headline in U.S. newspapers, most refineries that supply fuel to service stations are paying the equivalent of a much higher price -- and those costs are already being felt when consumers fill up their vehicles.

    The cause is an unprecedented disconnect between the most visible price of oil -- crude oil futures contracts on the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) -- and the real cost of physical barrels pumped from the Gulf of Mexico, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

    This gap is caused by oil traders' growing realization that inventories at the small Oklahoma town of Cushing -- the delivery point for the NYMEX contract -- will likely be awash with crude for months to come due to booming production from Canada and shale oil producing states such as North Dakota.

    Because the U.S. pipeline system was designed to import oil from the coast to the interior, not vice versa, there's no way to move the extra northern crude to the southern refiners, in places such as Houston and Port Arthur, Texas, which are paying much higher rates for crude from far abroad.

    Refiners on the West, Gulf and East coasts -- who produce or import nearly 85 percent of America's fuel -- are therefore forced to pay a premium of $15 to $20 relative to the current futures price of $100 a barrel to keep their plants fed, and pump prices are reflecting that premium.

    U.S. oil futures, also called West Texas Intermediate (WTI) after a kind of oil produced in Texas, are no longer the reliable yardstick for the world price and a clear signal of demand for high quality oil from the world's biggest consumer that they once were. They have instead become more of an indicator of the degree of oversupply in the heart of the North American continent.

    The most visible evidence of this disparity can be seen in the price of ICE Brent crude futures, the European benchmark; it has risen 21 percent this year, while WTI futures have gained only 15 percent. Normally trading at parity to WTI, Brent surged last week to a record premium of $17.

    Although that spread has contracted sharply over the past few days, trading on Wednesday at about $10, the correction has brought its own set of problems. On Monday, for example, the two contracts moved sharply in opposite directions, sowing confusion about whether oil costs had gone up or down.

    The result is that WTI, the light sweet crude that Americans have long associated with "the" price of oil, has become a dangerously inaccurate indicator.

    And that has major implications for consumers and companies given that at $100 a barrel many economists see limited risk to the U.S. economy but at $120 serious headwinds become evident.

    "The hike to something which is between $110 and $120 a barrel is something which may affect (growth) if it lasts too long," said International Monetary Fund chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn, during a visit to Panama last week.

    It was, though, unclear whether he was talking Brent or WTI.

    WHY IS WTI DISCONNECTED FROM OTHER MARKETS?

    The massive gap in prices is caused by a major shift in the way the United States imports crude. There's simply too much oil landlocked in the middle of the country -- not a bad thing for a nation eager for more supply security.

    While still dependent upon imports to meet more than half its oil consumption, the U.S. market is struggling to absorb the fast-growing share arriving by pipeline instead of by sea.

    In addition to the well-documented boom in Canadian oil sands output, domestic production is also finally growing anew -- not in the traditional oil patches of Texas and the Gulf of Mexico, but from North Dakota shale formations that were once written off as too costly to tap.

    Instead of flowing all the way to the Gulf or East Coast, where it is needed most, that new oil is increasingly piling up in Cushing, Oklahoma, a small town of less than 10,000 famous for little apart from being America's pipeline crossroads.

    That means that despite the tantalizing prospect of cut-price crude, most U.S. refineries cannot buy WTI or other Midwestern crudes -- there aren't enough railcars, road tankers or barges to get around the bottleneck today, and a permanent solution depends on building new high-capacity pipelines.

    Instead on the coasts, refiners are paying the going international price of oil -- even if that means paying $10 more for types of oil, such as Brent, that are almost identical in quality to the WTI equivalents that are filling storage tanks in Cushing.

    "They are both light sweet crudes and both yield lots of gasoline and diesel. If you were to take it strictly from the (refined product) yield, the price difference would be a dollar or $1.50 tops," said Peter Beutel, president of Cameron Hanover, a firm in New Canaan, Connecticut, that provides energy hedging advice.

    WHY ARE US GASOLINE PRICES HIGH?

    The same logistical and benchmark issues don't affect gasoline, however, and prices have risen more swiftly as one glance at the pump can tell you.

    When U.S. West Texas Intermediate crude oil futures broke $100 a barrel in February 2008, the national average retail price rose to $3.18 per gallon by the end of the month.

    Three years later WTI futures are again just above $100 a barrel but retail prices are now topping $3.50 a gallon.

    Indeed, gasoline prices in the United States posted their second-biggest increase ever in a two-week period, according to the Lundberg Survey of about 2,500 gas stations released on Sunday.

    The benchmark NYMEX gasoline price is set in New York Harbor, linking it more closely with the globally traded market than WTI crude, which is set in Cushing.

    The few refiners that have access to the cheaper crude oil in the U.S. Midwest are under no obligation to pass on those savings to customers. Instead they are reaping windfall profits because the market price for gasoline and diesel is being set by the more costly crude most refiners have to use.

    Gasoline in New York or Houston isn't much cheaper than it is in Illinois and other parts of the Midwest as it is much more easily transportable than crude.

    For consumers, there may be worse to come even if crude oil prices start to stabilize. There's often a lag time of weeks or months before oil contracts reach the global spot market price.
     
    A long but worthwile read. Mabey new jobs on the pipelines.


    By Robert Campbell Robert Campbell – Wed Mar 9, 1:41 pm ET
    MEXICO CITY (Reuters) – Americans worried about the pain of $100 U.S. oil should worry a lot more.

    Although $100 oil is the headline in U.S. newspapers, most refineries that supply fuel to service stations are paying the equivalent of a much higher price -- and those costs are already being felt when consumers fill up their vehicles.

    The cause is an unprecedented disconnect between the most visible price of oil -- crude oil futures contracts on the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) -- and the real cost of physical barrels pumped from the Gulf of Mexico, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

    This gap is caused by oil traders' growing realization that inventories at the small Oklahoma town of Cushing -- the delivery point for the NYMEX contract -- will likely be awash with crude for months to come due to booming production from Canada and shale oil producing states such as North Dakota.

    Because the U.S. pipeline system was designed to import oil from the coast to the interior, not vice versa, there's no way to move the extra northern crude to the southern refiners, in places such as Houston and Port Arthur, Texas, which are paying much higher rates for crude from far abroad.

    Refiners on the West, Gulf and East coasts -- who produce or import nearly 85 percent of America's fuel -- are therefore forced to pay a premium of $15 to $20 relative to the current futures price of $100 a barrel to keep their plants fed, and pump prices are reflecting that premium.

    U.S. oil futures, also called West Texas Intermediate (WTI) after a kind of oil produced in Texas, are no longer the reliable yardstick for the world price and a clear signal of demand for high quality oil from the world's biggest consumer that they once were. They have instead become more of an indicator of the degree of oversupply in the heart of the North American continent.

    The most visible evidence of this disparity can be seen in the price of ICE Brent crude futures, the European benchmark; it has risen 21 percent this year, while WTI futures have gained only 15 percent. Normally trading at parity to WTI, Brent surged last week to a record premium of $17.

    Although that spread has contracted sharply over the past few days, trading on Wednesday at about $10, the correction has brought its own set of problems. On Monday, for example, the two contracts moved sharply in opposite directions, sowing confusion about whether oil costs had gone up or down.

    The result is that WTI, the light sweet crude that Americans have long associated with "the" price of oil, has become a dangerously inaccurate indicator.

    And that has major implications for consumers and companies given that at $100 a barrel many economists see limited risk to the U.S. economy but at $120 serious headwinds become evident.

    "The hike to something which is between $110 and $120 a barrel is something which may affect (growth) if it lasts too long," said International Monetary Fund chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn, during a visit to Panama last week.

    It was, though, unclear whether he was talking Brent or WTI.

    WHY IS WTI DISCONNECTED FROM OTHER MARKETS?

    The massive gap in prices is caused by a major shift in the way the United States imports crude. There's simply too much oil landlocked in the middle of the country -- not a bad thing for a nation eager for more supply security.

    While still dependent upon imports to meet more than half its oil consumption, the U.S. market is struggling to absorb the fast-growing share arriving by pipeline instead of by sea.

    In addition to the well-documented boom in Canadian oil sands output, domestic production is also finally growing anew -- not in the traditional oil patches of Texas and the Gulf of Mexico, but from North Dakota shale formations that were once written off as too costly to tap.

    Instead of flowing all the way to the Gulf or East Coast, where it is needed most, that new oil is increasingly piling up in Cushing, Oklahoma, a small town of less than 10,000 famous for little apart from being America's pipeline crossroads.

    That means that despite the tantalizing prospect of cut-price crude, most U.S. refineries cannot buy WTI or other Midwestern crudes -- there aren't enough railcars, road tankers or barges to get around the bottleneck today, and a permanent solution depends on building new high-capacity pipelines.

    Instead on the coasts, refiners are paying the going international price of oil -- even if that means paying $10 more for types of oil, such as Brent, that are almost identical in quality to the WTI equivalents that are filling storage tanks in Cushing.

    "They are both light sweet crudes and both yield lots of gasoline and diesel. If you were to take it strictly from the (refined product) yield, the price difference would be a dollar or $1.50 tops," said Peter Beutel, president of Cameron Hanover, a firm in New Canaan, Connecticut, that provides energy hedging advice.

    WHY ARE US GASOLINE PRICES HIGH?

    The same logistical and benchmark issues don't affect gasoline, however, and prices have risen more swiftly as one glance at the pump can tell you.

    When U.S. West Texas Intermediate crude oil futures broke $100 a barrel in February 2008, the national average retail price rose to $3.18 per gallon by the end of the month.

    Three years later WTI futures are again just above $100 a barrel but retail prices are now topping $3.50 a gallon.

    Indeed, gasoline prices in the United States posted their second-biggest increase ever in a two-week period, according to the Lundberg Survey of about 2,500 gas stations released on Sunday.

    The benchmark NYMEX gasoline price is set in New York Harbor, linking it more closely with the globally traded market than WTI crude, which is set in Cushing.

    The few refiners that have access to the cheaper crude oil in the U.S. Midwest are under no obligation to pass on those savings to customers. Instead they are reaping windfall profits because the market price for gasoline and diesel is being set by the more costly crude most refiners have to use.

    Gasoline in New York or Houston isn't much cheaper than it is in Illinois and other parts of the Midwest as it is much more easily transportable than crude.

    For consumers, there may be worse to come even if crude oil prices start to stabilize. There's often a lag time of weeks or months before oil contracts reach the global spot market price.
     
    I read antoher article that drew attention to the fact that to soem degree we were experiencing deflated prices because of the turn down in travel due to the covid restrictions and now its returned to 'normal' plus. Thats only one reason.
     
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    I read antoher article that drew attention to the fact that to soem degree we were experiencing deflated prices because of the turn down in travel due to the covid restrictions and now its returned to 'normal' plus. Thats only one reason.
    Now, America is expected to supply LNG to Europe. Our country is in shambles due to an antiquated infrastructure with no plan to modernize.
     
    Now, America is expected to supply LNG to Europe. Our country is in shambles due to an antiquated infrastructure with no plan to modernize.
    Absolutely no shortage of oil or LNG. Mexico has more than we could use in a century. I believe it was Jimmy carter who refused to buy it and pissed the Mexicans off.

    www.thecrimson.com › article › 1979/2/27South of the Border | News | The ... - The Harvard Crimson

     
    Absolutely no shortage of oil or LNG. Mexico has more than we could use in a century. I believe it was Jimmy carter who refused to buy it and pissed the Mexicans off.

    www.thecrimson.com › article › 1979/2/27South of the Border | News | The ... - The Harvard Crimson

    Plenty of oil and gas in the North Sea.... Time to let Europe produce their own energy (oil, gas, wind, nuclear, etc). As America attempts to "save the world" .... down the Rabbit Hole it goes.

     
    Plenty of oil and gas in the North Sea.... Time to let Europe produce their own energy (oil, gas, wind, nuclear, etc). As America attempts to "save the world" .... down the Rabbit Hole it goes.

    As I understand it the problem is in refining. Our Texas crude s good shit and easy to refine so we sell it to nations with lower tecnology,. We buy the dirty crap because we can refine it. Welcome to capitalism 101.

    homer-Doh.jpg
     
    As I understand it the problem is in refining. Our Texas crude s good shit and easy to refine so we sell it to nations with lower tecnology,. We buy the dirty crap because we can refine it. Welcome to capitalism 101.

    homer-Doh.jpg
    Biden's plan is to spend our tax money to buy gas cards so we can afford higher priced fuel... Rather than have American's discover, drill, transport, refine and market it all right here in the good old USA.

     

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    Another issue is simply investor profits. 10% of the already approved domestic drilling leases/areas are not being developed currently. When exploration/extraction companies were asked why they are not developing those leases to increase domestic supply the answer was simple, their investors don't want them to because it keeps prices and profits higher. So if those companies were to develop those leases we could cut our imported oil in half, that's not in Biden's hands or any politician, that's oil companies doing what's best for profit.

    People think that with a magic pipeline or more oil drilling and fuel prices will drop. The reality is as long as the corporations that control the supply are focused on profit, with a commodity that people are basically forced to buy, they will never do everything they can to lower prices to the consumer.

    It's no different when there's a tropical storm and a couple rigs shut down offshore for a couple days, gas will shoot up 10% for weeks before it comes back down. How much do you think 1-2 rigs shut off for 2 days does to supply I bet it's not very much, certainly not enough to cause a 10% price increase for weeks.

    We import ~20% of our oil use, of that 20%, 7% was from Russia, so that means Russian oil is ~1.5% of our total oil budget......do you really think that removing 1.5% of your supply supports a 50% price increase? Let's take that a step further, only 40% of our oil budget is used for making fuel, so that means Russian imported oil is only responsible for 0.75% of our fuel supply. So again, we lost less than 1% of the oil we use to make fuel, but prices at the pump went up 50%.......tell me again how greed isn't driving fuel prices.
     
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    Another issue is simply investor profits. 10% of the already approved domestic drilling leases/areas are not being developed currently. When exploration/extraction companies were asked why they are not developing those leases to increase domestic supply the answer was simple, their investors don't want them to because it keeps prices and profits higher. So if those companies were to develop those leases we could cut our imported oil in half, that's not in Biden's hands or any politician, that's oil companies doing what's best for profit.

    People think that with a magic pipeline or more oil drilling and fuel prices will drop. The reality is as long as the corporations that control the supply are focused on profit, with a commodity that people are basically forced to buy, they will never do everything they can to lower prices to the consumer.

    We import ~20% of our oil use, of that 20%, 7% was from Russia, so that means Russian oil is ~1.5% of our total oil budget......do you really think that removing 1.5% of your supply supports a 50% price increase? Let's take that a step further, only 40% of our oil budget is used for making fuel, so that means Russian imported oil is only responsible for 0.75% of our fuel supply. So again, we lost less than 1% of the oil we use to make fuel, but prices at the pump went up 50%.......tell me again how greed isn't driving fuel prices.
    There are ways around the monoply of the oil companies.......... Do away with the share holders.
     
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    Don't worry, they'll drop significantly around the midterm elections, so we can remember the current party in control of the government is here to help us........
     
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    Said it before, prices haven't been this high since the last time Biden was in office. That's no accident.
    Oil bad! US oil bad! Buy if from somewhere else, somehow it's better.
    Biden and his masters aren't making money on cheap US oil.
     
    Ummmm...what? How would this work?
    That is a thought provoking question. Thank you
    Several thoughts. It is appearing that America has become more of a "trading nation" than a producing nation or a service industry nation. There are several situations where "the tail is wagging the dog" or "the stock holders are running the company"... If you look at board members and stock holders, very few have the mental resources to actually run a large corporation. The American stock markets have become more of a casino than a place to invest. Unfortunately, most of our Pension managers have sunk the majority of our money into the casino. Not to side track, but it is the same situation in Europe. I can't give you a simple A, B, C plan. Here is a list of privately held companies in America. They seem well situated to weather the coming storm rather than deal with share holders.

     
    That is a thought provoking question. Thank you
    Several thoughts. It is appearing that America has become more of a "trading nation" than a producing nation or a service industry nation. There are several situations where "the tail is wagging the dog" or "the stock holders are running the company"... If you look at board members and stock holders, very few have the mental resources to actually run a large corporation. The American stock markets have become more of a casino than a place to invest. Unfortunately, most of our Pension managers have sunk the majority of our money into the casino. Not to side track, but it is the same situation in Europe. I can't give you a simple A, B, C plan. Here is a list of privately held companies in America. They seem well situated to weather the coming storm rather than deal with share holders.

    Poor leadership at the corporate level doesn't negate the need for profitability, so I'm not sure that the removal of stock holders is going to accomplish anything. All companies have to make money, and deciding to maximize profits is an innate characteristic of capitalism. I think this particular issue is deeper than just holding back on production, although that may be some of it. What may be more of a cause is the resistance to invest deeply into more production only to have the government jerk the rug out from under them again.
     
    Poor leadership at the corporate level doesn't negate the need for profitability, so I'm not sure that the removal of stock holders is going to accomplish anything. All companies have to make money, and deciding to maximize profits is an innate characteristic of capitalism. I think this particular issue is deeper than just holding back on production, although that may be some of it. What may be more of a cause is the resistance to invest deeply into more production only to have the government jerk the rug out from under them again.
    Yep... I can say this.. I worked many years across America for the company listed at # 21. If I ever had a question, it was answered directly and in short order. At the beginning of every shift, we had a plan. As you can see in photo #2, it always paid off. Never, once, did anyone hang their head, say it can't be done, give up and go home. There was always leadership, team work and support to get it done......... These things that are on the endangered species here in America.
     

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    Won't get any help from OPEC+

    OPEC+ will meet Thursday amid the war in Ukraine and associated sanctions, which have sharply reduced Russian crude oil and petroleum products exports. But the meeting of the oil cartel and its allies will likely only result in a continuation of monthly 400,000 barrels per day quota increases, less than half of which is matched to countries that actually have unused capacity. That outcome is a sharp departure from a bedrock assumption underpinning the U.S. relationships with Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates—that they would use available spare capacity to help offset volume losses elsewhere when the world oil market faced a genuine crisis, as it does now.
     
    OPEC is always the bad guy, when prices are too high we whine they won't add more supply, when prices are too low we whine they won't hold back supply to keep prices higher and help out American companies that have to operate on a lower margins due to much higher extraction costs.

    Investors are an issue, but many huge companies would probably not be the powerhouse they are without them. Not to mention companies focused on investor profits hurt more than just oil production to keep prices and profits high. Those companies also have to decide between using those profits to invest in their employees....benefits, training, wages, new technology, new business development etc. or pass them onto investors to try and keep them happy. It's a lot like having too much debt, when you get paid you have to decide what to sacrificed to put $ toward the debt. I doubt we'll ever see them go away, those huge investors and lobby groups own the political system, and they are taking over more companies every day. How many gun companies now have major positions by investment groups/banks.....S&W, Ruger, Remington, TC, Caldwell, Federal, CCI, Bushnell, Blackhawk, RCBS, Winchester for sure. Three huge parent companies Olin, Vista, American Outdoors probably own 50+ shooting brands.
     
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    OPEC is always the bad guy, when prices are too high we whine they won't add more supply, when prices are too low we whine they won't hold back supply to keep prices higher and help out American companies that have to operate on a lower margins due to much higher extraction costs.

    Investors are an issue, but many huge companies would probably not be the powerhouse they are without them. Not to mention companies focused on investor profits hurt more than just oil production to keep prices and profits high. Those companies also have to decide between using those profits to invest in their employees....benefits, training, wages, new technology, new business development etc. or pass them onto investors to try and keep them happy. It's a lot like having too much debt, when you get paid you have to decide what to sacrificed to put $ toward the debt. I doubt we'll ever see them go away, those huge investors and lobby groups own the political system, and they are taking over more companies every day. How many gun companies now have major positions by investment groups/banks.....S&W, Ruger, Remington, TC, Caldwell, Federal, CCI, Bushnell, Blackhawk, RCBS, Winchester for sure. Three huge parent companies Olin, Vista, American Outdoors probably own 50+ shooting brands.
    Understood. I agree on "where we are at"... How would you position yourself for the next 2 years?
    Location
    Investments in the market
    Vehicles, new / old
    Health care premiums
    Kids in college / private school
    Property tax / Interest on home loan
    Food - Home grown or bought
    Drinking water
    I feel the members have enough ammo and weapons so I left it out.