I was going to buy another urx but the damn things are hard to find, plus the price is getting ridiculous. How are the geissele rails? Specifically the mk8. Would be either the 13.5 or 15 and a 16 or 18" barrel I haven't decided yet.
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In theory the the URX should be a more robust rail, but KAC availability is essentially zero so I am not sure it really matters.
Which URX rail? There have been four versions. The URX 3 was always my favorite. I built up quite a few ten or so years ago. It was unique and far ahead of its time.
The current Geissele rails are superior in every respect.
The URX III was my favorite but it was short lived. I used to have a box full of KAC parts I had amassed over a decade, I should have sat on that stuff a little longer. I am or was a certified KAC fanboy but their stuff just isn't worth the hassle anymore. Geissele parts are typically readily available so I'd go that route.
Absolutely love the Mk8, thing is built like a brick shit house. Mk16 not so much.
This,
KAC is the world champion of coming up with a really good piece of gear, and making no effort on bringing it to market. They've been stinging along those poor bastards over on ARFCOM since 2018 on their stupid lunchbox special and they still don't have a complete rifle.
10-15 years ago, KAC was the hotness, and honestly, IMO were worth it, but fast forward to today, at their current premium, and taken into account their availability, Absolutely not.
There are a lot of really good AR's, with significantly better availability.
The cross section is strong, but doesn’t lend itself to comfort.
Maybe, but to each their own on that front no matter what the rail is. I like it personally.
mk8’s are my favorite G rail. had a few mk4’s. never had one rotate but i’m not overly hard on those rifles.
i have big hands so the diameter isnt a problem and they seem to stay cooler on carbines that get alot of round pumped thru them quickly. i use magpul panels on those.
always liked the KAC but couldnt bring myself to spend the money on them.
i have big hands so the diameter isnt a problem and they seem to stay cooler on carbines that get alot of round pumped thru them quickly. i use magpul panels on those.
always liked the KAC but couldnt bring myself to spend the money on them.
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True, but the 13” I have is super strong and is within a couple ounces of my KMRs / MCMR.
I’ve gotten used to the feel too
The mk8 is pretty easy to dress up and keep comfortable imo
what panels are those?
I couldn’t have said it better myself. I sold the large frames a few years back but I still have a few SR-15’s and some cans which I’ll never get rid of. I’d like the new KS-1 but I’m not going to over pay or wait three more years for one either. Great stuff but just no longer worth the hassle especially when many of the other top manufacturers have pretty much stepped up to the same level of quality and innovation combined with actual availability.
You all misunderstand we’re not KAC’s target market.
That doesn't change anything in regards to how the consumer sees it.
The Geissele handguards now use 70 series aluminum and the early Mk16 bendy issues aren’t there anymore (of course all handguards can and do bend).
I don’t have experience with the URX3, but the Geisseles are simply better than the URX 4 now. Just as durable, but with easier maintenance and installation.
I don’t have experience with the URX3, but the Geisseles are simply better than the URX 4 now. Just as durable, but with easier maintenance and installation.
You’re right, it just means the consumer is deluded. Market seems to reflect that delusion, as noted.
I love my KAC SR15 Mod 1, and I'm never going to get rid of it.
I bought it at a time when KAC's were still relatively affordable, and easy to get. However, if I was to buy an AR15 today in today's market, I would overlook KAC for other options. Doesn't really make sense to buy a KAC today, and KAC doesn't really seem to care much about the commercial market.
Just so we are clear; your position is that the consumer in the retail market is delusional because a company offers something for sale in said market and the consumer is upset by no availability and only inflated opportunity to purchase...?
A consumer is not delusional for expecting to be able to purchase something that is offered at retail. The real issue is aggregious out of stocks, poor business planning, and poor brand management by KAC. If you can only support your primary market, then that's what you should do.
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I would skip all that and get the LaRueStealth 2.0 upper receiver and handguard combo for about the same price as Geissele or KAC rails alone. The only thing I’ve felt that is more rigid is the LMT MRP.
You can get 10.5” or 13” rail length ( I would do the 13” with a 13.5” barrel), MLOK now despite what the pics show. It’s probably the biggest sleeper on the market and has been for about 7-8 years. Pros over the other designs are:
* Truly free-floated without anything clamping to a barrel nut
* Rock solid mate-up with more surface-to-surface contact between the upper and HG flanges, using axial torque from 4 fasteners with lots of thread engagement
* Zero chance of rotation
* Excellent upper receiver and handguard top rail alignment
* Very slim width
* Lightweight
* $489
You can get 10.5” or 13” rail length ( I would do the 13” with a 13.5” barrel), MLOK now despite what the pics show. It’s probably the biggest sleeper on the market and has been for about 7-8 years. Pros over the other designs are:
* Truly free-floated without anything clamping to a barrel nut
* Rock solid mate-up with more surface-to-surface contact between the upper and HG flanges, using axial torque from 4 fasteners with lots of thread engagement
* Zero chance of rotation
* Excellent upper receiver and handguard top rail alignment
* Very slim width
* Lightweight
* $489
Case in point, this consumer is deluded into thinking he’s part of the market to which KAC is targeting their products.
There is no poor business planning. The consumer market is not and has never been KAC’s market.
Not case and point at all. It's a market they sell in and cannot support, period. The retail and military / leo markets are two entirely seperate businesses. No retail customer is mistaking themselves to be a military or police department either, so you can drop the "delusional" comments. It is absolutely poor business planning; they are unable to support one of the markets they've entered. There is nothing delusional about the customers in that market being upset about not being able to purchase the product. You can say retail "is not and never has been their market" all you want but it doesn't change the fact that it is an entirely different market from law enforcement, government, and military that they've absolutely chosen to service.
I don't think anybody faults KAC for prioritizing mil orders ahead of commercial orders, but there inability or maybe even desire to adapt to market demand over the last decade.
FN, HK, LMT, Geiselle, and Sig are all "Defense Contractors" that prioritize mil orders that don't seem to have the same issues with keeping their vendor network stocked.
No, I don't fault them either. But the fact of the matter is they entered a market they can't support. The two thoughts can coexist.
I would skip all that and get the LaRueStealth 2.0 upper receiver and handguard combo for about the same price as Geissele or KAC rails alone. The only thing I’ve felt that is more rigid is the LMT MRP.
You can get 10.5” or 13” rail length ( I would do the 13” with a 13.5” barrel), MLOK now despite what the pics show. It’s probably the biggest sleeper on the market and has been for about 7-8 years. Pros over the other designs are:
* Truly free-floated without anything clamping to a barrel nut
* Rock solid mate-up with more surface-to-surface contact between the upper and HG flanges, using axial torque from 4 fasteners with lots of thread engagement
* Zero chance of rotation
* Excellent upper receiver and handguard top rail alignment
* Very slim width
* Lightweight
* $489
I thought about that but geissele is having a sale right now and I already have an upper receiver and some other bits just down to getting a barrel and handguard now.
A big thing about Knight’s is that they have always been a Special Operations Forces and military responsive contractor who immediately reacts to time-sensitive demands from those types of customers. As the word spread from the 1980s to early 1990s, they added design, testing, and manufacturing capacity to meet their growing list of customers.
Think early rail attachments, handguards, flashlight mounts, vertical grips, optic mounts for SMGs, Carbines, Sniper Systems, Machineguns, unique Night Vision systems attachment solutions for all of these types of weapons, suppressors, LAM mounts, sling mounts, and anything basically that end-users come to them with asking for KAC to rapidly develop and make.
Because of the ever-changing nature of weapons, night vision, LAMs, flashlights, and ancillary systems, these things go from being the new hotness one day, to obsolete the next year.
Think about everything we went through with the PVS-4, PVS-10, SIMRAD, Thermal Weapon Sights, PVS-14s, and then Clip-Ons just for weapon-mounted NVDs.
Handguards went from repurposed SR-25 carbon fiber tubes with AR-15 upper receiver thread interface parts, to the KAC RIS, RAS, FF RAS, MRE, and URX series. That covers 1993-present.
Then look at PAQ-4C, PEQ-2A, PEQ-15, and subsequent LAMs, all the MP5 rails for customers all over the world, MP5 optic mounts, 870 Master Keys, and a list of things even the most-dedicated clone builders have never seen, and will never see.
Suppressors, complete weapons contracts, ever-changing scope mounts, and new clip-ons require constant feedback and response from KAC to that customer base. These aren’t just US SOF and DoD contracts either, from what I understand. The customer base is quite large and well-funded, with very fast solicitation and fulfillment schedules that are unique to KAC.
While it isn’t realistic to expect them to also be responsive to the civilian market, Trey recently said they really want to expand more in that space, so we’ll see.
Think early rail attachments, handguards, flashlight mounts, vertical grips, optic mounts for SMGs, Carbines, Sniper Systems, Machineguns, unique Night Vision systems attachment solutions for all of these types of weapons, suppressors, LAM mounts, sling mounts, and anything basically that end-users come to them with asking for KAC to rapidly develop and make.
Because of the ever-changing nature of weapons, night vision, LAMs, flashlights, and ancillary systems, these things go from being the new hotness one day, to obsolete the next year.
Think about everything we went through with the PVS-4, PVS-10, SIMRAD, Thermal Weapon Sights, PVS-14s, and then Clip-Ons just for weapon-mounted NVDs.
Handguards went from repurposed SR-25 carbon fiber tubes with AR-15 upper receiver thread interface parts, to the KAC RIS, RAS, FF RAS, MRE, and URX series. That covers 1993-present.
Then look at PAQ-4C, PEQ-2A, PEQ-15, and subsequent LAMs, all the MP5 rails for customers all over the world, MP5 optic mounts, 870 Master Keys, and a list of things even the most-dedicated clone builders have never seen, and will never see.
Suppressors, complete weapons contracts, ever-changing scope mounts, and new clip-ons require constant feedback and response from KAC to that customer base. These aren’t just US SOF and DoD contracts either, from what I understand. The customer base is quite large and well-funded, with very fast solicitation and fulfillment schedules that are unique to KAC.
While it isn’t realistic to expect them to also be responsive to the civilian market, Trey recently said they really want to expand more in that space, so we’ll see.
The lunchbox special ordeal personifies KAC. Elon Musk was able to take the Cybertruck from a drawing on napkin to public release in less time that takes for KAC to fill an order of what, like 50 rifles. I would not be surprised people have literally dropped dead waiting on the next batch of parts, only to see 3D printed Triple taps or Micro cans released before they get the balance of their parts.
Another issue I thought was quite comical was that they have been talking about their 14.5 6.5CM upper/rifle for years, and upon seeing a YouTube personality do a review on it, I asked one of the reps if an order can be placed and was told, sorry, that was a "special release" and only a few were made available LoL.... What.... Like how the hell can I get one of those special release items
There was another story on ARFCOM where Mr. Knight apparently wanted to buy a Mk19 off somebody and ended up shitting an M110 as a down payment. Once again, LoL.
I love the stuff that they come up with and still think that make a damn good product
I think there is a perception that while they still have defense contracts, what they had the first decade of the GWOT vs what they have now are significantly less, and there is a perception that they were able to support the commercial market better during the Height of the GWOT vs now.
Aside from the USSS contract, some foreign M110 orders, and the USMC suppressor contract, I’m mystified as to what KAC has been doing post-GWOT pre-L403A1.
I know they had to move to a much larger facility that requires a vehicle to drive around in just to get from one side of the building to the other, unless you want to take a long, long walk.
If we also look at their customer base, their core unit orders are from organizations that have only added more elements and those units are always on a wartime schedule and deployment posture, never at a peacetime mentality. That was true pre-GWOT, and GWOT never ended for them.
Additionally, the things they developed were so desired, that they became contract items for the US Army, USAF, USMC, and USN carbines and rifles, which expanded the total demand for RIS/RAS tremendously.
Since some of the early SR-25s were adopted by JSOC, SF, and NSW, it got the attention of Big Army and USMC, who also adopted SR-25 variants with the Mk.11 and M110 SASS. I was surprised to learn that there are at least 25 nations using the M110, which has its own evolutionary SOPMOD-like upgrade program with the M110A2 and M110A3.
M110A2 upper uses a handguard with MLOK, optimized gas system for suppressed/unsuppressed, and other improved features over the original M110 so existing customers can drop-in that complete upper. Just from what I’m seeing, it looks like M110A2 is a 5yr $13mil contract being fulfilled as we speak for Big Army.
M110A3 is 6.5CM per a Crane contract order. God only knows what other M110 upgrade contracts there are for some of the 25 customer nations who bought M110s.
That’s just one weapon system too, not even talking SR-15s or anything else. There’s no telling what other weapons and ancillary systems they are fulfilling, but given the nature of the world’s current events, I suspect they can’t keep up with demand.
The European nations are finally taking defense seriously (when it might be too late), so decision-making about defense spending is no longer a “how little can we give them”, but “How fast can we get the systems!!!!”.
See my post above. I don’t have any interest in this other than analyzing this industry for so long. The only KAC products I have are a complete RIS with BII in a bin somewhere.
I just started looking at what recent contracts and current fulfillment they have, and it looks like there is way more on their plate than most people imagined just for the M110A2 and M110A3 uppers. That doesn’t even address the 25 nations who bought M110s that are in the cue for upgrades as well.
There are other units who are their core base that don’t have their contracts published in the open due to their procurement structure and nature of their deployment posture.
That M110A2 does look pretty sick, especially with the dimpled barrel:
These seem to be programs of record right now still filling contracts, not including the KS-1. The AMG gets overlooked because most gun guys don’t follow military machinegun contracts:
I think any retail consumer that whines about KAC availability is not serious or very resourceful, at a minimum. You just have to know where to look and be able to pay the bill. Also, maybe not fixate on one super specific oddball model, etc. I bet I could spend a quarter million before supper time on nice KAC stuff and never leave my chair.
And that will make for a nice 2 rifle collection.
Find a National Guard unit who is able to schedule their deployments at FOBs or airfields in the wake of NSW.
Collect their connexes along the way that they forget or abandon, and profit?
More like 50....
Sure, you can find stuff on the used market for really inflated prices.
But anyone looking to buy KAC stuff from the main dealers (Kelley Enterprises, etc) will likely be out of luck.
This is beginning to feel a lot like the LMT (I say this as an lmt owner) dogshit QC being "okay because they manufacture for mil/leo and they're okay with it, it's a tool, be man!" argument...for a $3k+ rifle that is absolutely a luxury purchase.
Birds of a feather with these two, kissing cousins if you will. And I say that as a happy owner of both makes.
Absolutely. I will say LMT is the only company I've ever had to do an RMA on a castle nut, end plate, buffer tube and mil spec trigger. Frightening, irritating, and hysterical all at the same time.
I had to pull favors from some fellas still on the inside to throw their weight in order to get a brand new out of spec lower replaced. I love my LMT rifles, almost as much as my KAC rifles, but they've definitely had some major issues since the move.
To think I hurt feelings when I said LMT was dogshit years back, when their QC started tanking.
The copium is strong brother, it only gets worse with higher price tags.
Yes they do. Yes mine have the extremely rare prototype long urx4s before they moved to the long urx6. I do not however have the dimplesThat M110A2 does look pretty sick, especially with the dimpled barrel:
Good posts all around. I love my ACC/CC and consider it my favorite firearm, but I did purchase it before Covid hit.
If I was starting out today, I would absolutely go with a LMT mws with a lw barrel in 16 or 13.5 instead. I am also interested in the potential of the various geissele gas guns being made, but want to see if they have qc issues like i have read about the 556 uppers having.
On a side note, did Geissele poach some engineers and/or barrel experts from other firearm companies? They seem to have exploded in a relatively short amount of time to winning government contracts.
If I was starting out today, I would absolutely go with a LMT mws with a lw barrel in 16 or 13.5 instead. I am also interested in the potential of the various geissele gas guns being made, but want to see if they have qc issues like i have read about the 556 uppers having.
On a side note, did Geissele poach some engineers and/or barrel experts from other firearm companies? They seem to have exploded in a relatively short amount of time to winning government contracts.
