F T/R Competition Getting started

[Dadnatron]

I have read a ton concerning F-class and F T/R... basically getting to the point that I need actual experience to continue to get more information to stick. It has become all theoretical and just isn't making it in any longer.

So... I have decided to take the plunge, but I am not exactly sure where to begin. I've grown up shooting... and have 2 son's 15 and 19 who are interested as well. Both are 6' and 190 lbs. I'm 6'2" and 210. (If that makes any difference... I guess kick 'kicks' regardless of how big you are.)

I understand the differences between F-class and F T/R... and both sound great, but given that I don't have either rifle, I am not sure where to begin. Are there significant differences in the matches (other than the obvious equipment and rifle limitations)? Are the matches more common, more competitive, more difficult for one or the other? Is one 'easier' to get into than another and do skills transfer well between?

What would your recommendation be? In all regards... I don't have a preference, but like I said... it seems that what I need now is experience.

I have also been wondering about a rifle and while money isn't an issue (I'm not made of it, but I want to purchase something that is worth the money and will not be my limiting factor for some time.) I don't want to blow tons of cash simply because there is something that might be potentially 'better'. If it is worth it as a beginner... I will do it. So, given that, do you have a recommendation on rifle?

I have thought if I go F T/R... with going with the Savage Model 12 308 Palma. But I am not sure whether it is significantly different (in a real world accuracy and shooting way) than the Savage F T/R. Although I don't like buying a rifle with a plastic cheek piece added in what appears to be an afterthought. Would it be better to buy the F T/R and eventually get a different stock? The Savage Palma is $1927.

I also have seen a custom 6.5x.284 F-Class with these specs
- Bat machine M action 6.5x284 .290 nk built by Mike Bryant.
29" 1.25"barrel Bartlien 8 twist 300 rounds
Stock Precision Rifle and Tool, Jewell trigger
Picatinny Rail
This is an F-class and he has it for sale for $3100.

Now, to a novice, this looks like a great gun... but I don't know whether it is worth the price. And as I said before... I understand these aren't even the same class gun. It is simply one which I found online.

But... getting into the sport initially... knowing what you know now... what would you do? F-Class or F T/R... what rifle would you buy...

I appreciate your thoughts.

 

[jhw1]

Re: Getting started

If you get the F-T/R & get a different stock you will have about the same money in it vs. getting the Palma. The Palma barrel will be competive while you are learning. Shoot the barrel out & rebarrel with what ever you want. Typicaly you only get one season out of a F-Open barrel while you can get several seasons from F-T/R (308) barrel. My 2 cents.

 

[ryanjay11]

Re: Getting started

You could purchase a Savage Target action, prefit custom barrel, and a drop in stock of your choice. This would give you a semi-custom rifle that is just how you want it for close to the same money as the Palma.

 

[SNAFU_]

Re: Getting started

First thing to do is determine what range(s) you will most likely be competing at.
If you will be competing at 1000y with a full pits range vs a 300y - 500y range with no pits, my advice will be very different for the actual rifle/scope/bipod, etc.

I would recommend F-TR to anyone starting out, just because of the drastic difference in equipment costs, etc

Go to one of the matches and look at the equipment they are using....wait till the end of the match and see who actually wins in the F-TR classes and talk to them (most competitors are more than happy to give advice to new shooters)

 

[Dadnatron]

Re: Getting started

I would want something for up to 1000 yds. My local club has this available. Full pits setup (Camp Atterbury, IN). In reality I suspect I would be shooting less than that for the most part.

Money isn't the issue, but like I said, I don't want to waste it. Concerning optics. My thoughts were to go best I could get, thinking it can always be moved to something else. I was thinking NF 12-42x56 NXS. Not sure if something better or better suited would be a better choice. I'm 43, so I want to insure my eyesight gets to have its maximal advantage... damn floaters.

If I did get the Savage action... how would I go about getting the setup for barrel and stock then get a gunsmith? From what I hear, Gunsmiths are stacked up months deep with work. At least those who most guys would want working on their rifles.

 

[SNAFU_]

Re: Getting started

My personal preference is for Remington over Savage (really a Ford/Chevy thing) because that is what I have the most experience with, but I suspect you can do the same with a Savage.
I am not a big fan of off-shelf factory rifles just because it will be luck of the draw as to how good/bad the bbl is.

All of my F-TR rifles are Remington actions, but I do see some guys running custom actions...either way you will need a good smith to install a good long bbl (I prefer cut rifled bbls over button rifles). Krieger, Bartlein, Brux, Rock all make excellent cut rifled bbls. Go with a 32" blank and have the smith try to stay as close to a finished 30" length as he can. My experience has been that if I buy a little tighter twist bbl than is really needed, I get better results and more flexibility on my loads. Get as heavy a contour as you can keeping in mind that you do have a weight limit which includes the bipod (18.15lbs). 308 has the advantage at 1k vs 223 unless there is no wind or you are incredibly good at wind reading, etc - your boys sizes indicate they can handle the recoil of a 70+ shot match...
I run NF BR 42x scopes and the new Sighton 10-50, but now that they offer the NF NXS in .125 click, that would be great too.

 

[XTR]

Re: Getting started

In case you misses this thread:

What factory rifle

 

[scaxeman]

Re: Getting started

Dadnatron,

My current F-T/R rig:
Savage F-T/R (box stock)
Nightforce 12-42 NXS
155.5 grain Bergers running hot!

I have run that plastic cheekpiece for 5+ years, I've had no problems with it. That said, luckily it fits me well.

The Nightforce is pretty much the standard for F-Class right now, yes, some folks are using other scopes, but the majority are running that Nightforce NXS. You won't be disappointed with it.

I would personally go with the Savage F-T/R rifle over the Palma one, simply based on the barrel. The F-T/R rifle comes with a bull barrel 1:12, the Palma rifle comes with a medium palma taper 1:13 twist. You need to loose some weight somewhere to run the Palma in F-T/R class (if you put a more suitable heavy barrel with a faster twist on the rifle). The obvious advantage to the Palma configuration is the adjustable furniture.

As far as shooting F-T/R vs. F-Open, that heavily depends on what you like to do.

F-Open is very much a tinkerer's game, with developing wildcat calibers and rifle combinations a strong component of the game. This is not to say that the emphasis on individual shooting isn't there; it very much is. You are shooting *very* efficient calibers and projectiles downrange that can shrug off much of what a .308 shooter would have to battle through. It is generally more expensive to run F-Open as the calibers that perform the best tend to burn up barrels at around 4x the rate of a .308.

F-T/R as a class is generally regarded as more of a shooter vs. shooter game, with the caliber and equipment held to much more of a level playing field. As a .308 will have (up to) double the wind drift as a streamlined 7mm Mag, or 300 WM, wind reading skills are very high up there on the learning curve. The equipment on the line for F-T/R varies wildly, from bone stock factory rifles (like my Savage), to high-end customs costing $3K+. At the top end of the field, there tends to not be a whole lot of difference in performance between the different rifles on the line; most top guys/gals are running ~1/3 MOA groups. The thing that spreads out the field is wind reading. Developing loads in F-T/R tends to be *much* easier. The joke is: throw either Lapua or Winchester cases in a box with Varget, primers, and Berger 155.5 bullets, shake, and you will have a good shooting load. Develop from there!

There are pluses and minuses to both classes, as others have said, head on out to a match and observe/ask questions. You'll see what guys are running and have a better idea which style of shooting suits your temperament.

 

[ryanjay11]

Re: Getting started

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dadnatron</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If I did get the Savage action... how would I go about getting the setup for barrel and stock then get a gunsmith? From what I hear, Gunsmiths are stacked up months deep with work. At least those who most guys would want working on their rifles.

</div></div>

That is the beauty of the Savage barrel nut. All you need is go/no-go gage set, action wrench, barrel wrench and a pre-fit barrel. The tools are cheap and good to have around since you will eventually want to replace your barrel. You should be able to order any stock that will drop right in. I would recommend a adjustable length of pull and cheek rest since you are sharing the rifle with your boys.

 

[barnettmmolive2012]

Re: Getting started



I've popped in here once or twice in the past few months - and kind of keeping up on what's going on around here.
But, I've been piddling around about this and decided to finally join this discussion board
because I feel like I have to say something about it!
__________________________________
Buy WOW Gold RS Gold

 

[280man]

Re: Getting started

I'm a long time F-Open shooter and I agree with what Darrell said. When I started shooting F-Class the TR side was brand new and they were shooting 308's and I suspect next summer in the 4th World Championships in Raton they will still be shooting 308's. That in itself is a pretty compelling reason to start in TR. If you ever intend on using air travel again the vote goes to TR. A 1 or 2 pound bipod goes in a suitcase much easier than a 30 pound front rest. If you have plenty of money and don't like reloading you can get 308 ammo from Litz and be competitive. I think Ive about talked myself in to switching NOT I'm to hard headed. Either side of F-Class can be fun it really just depends on what you want to do.

Have Fun
Rick Jensen

 

[lal357]

Re: Getting started

and remember unless your going to compete on some state or national level you can use your f t/r gun in f open i did at our local club shoots(300 yds) last year with a stock savage mod.12 lrpv in .223. yes there will be guys with 284's,6br's and such i just look at it like i'm getting more trigger time and if i beat a few thats even betteri knew i was at a disadvantage still shooting off a bipod but thats what i'm comfortalbe using i still do on my f open rig i put together this year.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Getting started

I firmly believe that if you're getting into F Class, it's best to get involved by easy stages.

To me, this means starting with F-Open. I think shooting off a bipod and using the .308 at near its extreme range limit are a pair of added complexities that can wait until later.

I would totally recommend the Savage F Open rifle except for its chambering. The volume of shooting a newb needs to do for both training/practice and actual comp just isn't compatible with the barrel life limitation the 6.5-284 imposes.

I far prefer the .260 for the beginner. It's more forgiving, and I firmly believe that having an initial chambering that exhibits more drop and drift is a <span style="font-style: italic">positive</span> issue for the beginner. It forces them to become more adept at wind calls, and this makes them a better shooter once they graduate to the 6.5-284.

I have been told that if one were to contact the Savage Custom Shop they would be very agreeable to building someone a factory F-Open Rifle chambered for .260.

Both chamberings will necessitate handloading for competitive performance so I see that issue as a wash either way. I say this with no actual experience in the new .260 FGMM load.

The .260 is not as competitive (quite), because its employment requires more work in the area of wind calls. That's not really an impediment; but rather, it's a key motivation to get that essential skill under one's belt. In the end, it's a better way to get started; and when graduating to a peppier chambering, it just makes things easier afterward.

I'm no champion, but I do have several years of 1000yd F class behind me. This is how I did it, even though my 1000yd experience had to end before I could make the transition to 6.5-284. I think that would have been the final step to competitive excellence for me.

A beginner would do well to set intermediate goals, and reality suggests winning should not be the first one. The .260 sets the stage for the bigger chamberings, and serves very well as a foundating builder.

If I were actually able to return to 1000yd F Class, I would be stepping up to a .280 Rem; but that's probably more risky, and I don't suggest it for others. Of course, back when I was getting started in LR F Class in 2001, it was the .260 that was a risky choice, and it turned out just fine for me (and a bunch of others, too).

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Getting started

I'd venture that if the .30-'06 chambering (which I believe was also once a NATO chambering, the de-facto first one for several NATO countries) was allowed for F T/R, it would pretty quickly supplant the other two. At the time .308 was mandated (because it was the current NATO chambering) for Palma, that was a very hot issue. I still have personal doubts about that decision. Part of that doubt is about the restrictions on current military chamberings that many foreign competitors face.

Greg

 

[Denys]

Re: Getting started

The 30-06 was not a NATO standard, or certainly not a de jure one. In fact the 7.62X51 was developed as the first NATO small arms standard and adopted as STANAG 2310 in 1954.

Out of a long 32 inch barrel my 180 hrain bullets have a muzzle velocity higher than any regular lenght 30-06 rifle and is approaching .300 Winchester Magnum velocity. So if one were to put a 30+ inch barrel to a 30-06 case, the muzzle velocity would be beyond a regular length .300WM and of course it would supplant the .308 and .223.

But it would also detract from F-T/R where a great part of the challenge is using a caliber that is stretched beyond its limits.

 

[762frmafr]

Re: Getting started

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darrell Buell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dadnatron,

My current F-T/R rig:
Savage F-T/R (box stock)
Nightforce 12-42 NXS
155.5 grain Bergers running hot!

</div></div>

Darrell, been looking hard at F-T/R. What bipod and rear bag setup do you run? The bipod if I'm not mistaken is part of the overall weight of the rifle correct?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Getting started

Of course you're right, Denys. The 7.62x51 was the first formal effort to develop a standardized NATO chambering, and it served as the basis for the Palma chambering requirement. It was intended to largely duplicate the performance of the .30-'06 in a smaller, lighter catridge, and for the most part, it has succeeded admirably at short and intermediate distances, which are the bread and butter of combat rifle employment.

But NATO was around before the Stanag spec, and .30-'06 was what a lot of those folks used until the Stanag spec got adopted. I was one of the guys whose military training involved both the M-1 and the M-14. It's no surprise to me that the NATO cartrdge's lifepan in US Service was so short. I was also there for the combat introduction of the M-16, and I was only in the military for two years. So I fired all three, for one reason or another, while I was a Marine.

I believe the NATO cartridge implementation was done at the cost of longer distance performance, and I don't necessarily agree with the wisdom of employing a competition chambering out at its most marginal performance envelope.

It's hard on equipment, and equally hard on shooters; and I don't subscribe to such artificially imposed challenges; either use the chambering where it's been designd to be used, or use one that's better suited to the actual challenge. Forcing 'one arm tied behind the back' competition is simply an exercise in sadomasochism, IMHO. Makes for way too mach 'strangeness' by my standards.

Yes you can make the chambering work, but at the cost of more extreme measures, like wow-sized barrel lengths. I would prefer a proposition that favors the average guys with the average rifles better, and put an end to specialized equipment requirements.

Obviously, I don't get the last vote in that, either; too many folks involved who have a vested need in being 'special'.

Greg

 

[Denys]

Re: Getting started

F-T/R is more difficult, not doubt about it, because of the limitations brought on by the chamberings. But I'm OK with that because all the other competitors have the same limitations, so it's not as much an equipment race; it's more of a skill race.

I do not find it physically hard on me or my equipment to shoot competitively at 1000 yards, but I find it hard to do very well, and I like that. A proposition that favors the average guys with average rifles would be only of average interest to me. It's one of the reasons I am only shooting LR these days.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Getting started

To each, their own...

Greg

 

[jeremylin]

Re: Getting started

I firmly believe that if you're getting into F Class, it's best to get involved by easy stages.

To me, this means starting with F-Open. I think shooting off a bipod and using the .308 at near its extreme range limit are a pair of added complexities that can wait until later.

I would totally recommend the Savage F Open rifle except for its chambering. The volume of shooting a newb needs to do for both training/practice and actual comp just isn't compatible with the barrel life limitation the 6.5-284 imposes.


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