What are some of the reasons that will cause a five shot group to look like to separate side by side groups? I am having this issue with a rifle of mine, and i am not real sure what i need to change. It seems to me someone told me that group separation can be caused by improper seating depth. Anyone have any ideas? Lee
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
Re: Group seperation??
Scope is good!! I shot some other loads with different bullets and they grouped. I was thinking that maybe seating depth, or powder charge would cause this?? I will tweak the load a little and see if i cant answer my own question. thanks Lee
Scope is good!! I shot some other loads with different bullets and they grouped. I was thinking that maybe seating depth, or powder charge would cause this?? I will tweak the load a little and see if i cant answer my own question. thanks Lee
Re: Group seperation??
I've shot a few rifles like this. Most were due to heating the barrel up. When it got warm/hot, it would start to seperate the group out. I would shoot much slower and not let it get hot. Either way, it's not a good thing.
I've shot a few rifles like this. Most were due to heating the barrel up. When it got warm/hot, it would start to seperate the group out. I would shoot much slower and not let it get hot. Either way, it's not a good thing.
Re: Group seperation??
The most common cause we see is the shooter repositioning himself on the rifle between shots.
The most common cause we see is the shooter repositioning himself on the rifle between shots.
Re: Group seperation??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The most common cause we see is the shooter repositioning himself on the rifle between shots.</div></div>
Yup.
A too short stock will produce good groups on "good days", but the shooter can vary hand position and shoot to two groups centers on "bad days" when focus or other position errors are present.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The most common cause we see is the shooter repositioning himself on the rifle between shots.</div></div>
Yup.
A too short stock will produce good groups on "good days", but the shooter can vary hand position and shoot to two groups centers on "bad days" when focus or other position errors are present.
Re: Group seperation??
im with operator error
lets see the:
targets
load data
range card
rifle
until then im going with operator error
im with operator error
lets see the:
targets
load data
range card
rifle
until then im going with operator error
Re: Group seperation??
ok were is the group in question. this rifle is extremely accurate with 107gr sierras. the chambering is a 6mm dasher. I am hoping the rifle will shoot 105 Berger VLD bullets as well as it does the 107's. I need to also tell you that these are fire forming Loads. I dont like my rear bag i have for this stock either. After reading some of your response i do suppose it could be shooter error, but i am usually pretty consistent in my technique. I work very hard to master the same shooting technique shot after shot, but i am human. Like i said above i was thinking an old timer told me that when this happens it is usually a seating depth problem, but i just cant remember. I read so much i tend to forget about half of it. sorry for the mud on the target. there was a fly on a piece of clay target below this target and he had to die. Unfortunately i think he lived! LOL!!! Anyway here is the group in question. I had 2 others just like it but i cant find them. I think they are still on the target in the garage. I will have to look. Thanks for all the replies fellas. I always enjoy reading what you folks have to say. Lee
as you can see, there is a little vertical in the groups as well. this tells me i need to increase the powder charge a bit.
I need to also let you know that this group in it hole state measured a mear .338" not to shabby. If i can get this tweaked in a little, look out!!!
ok were is the group in question. this rifle is extremely accurate with 107gr sierras. the chambering is a 6mm dasher. I am hoping the rifle will shoot 105 Berger VLD bullets as well as it does the 107's. I need to also tell you that these are fire forming Loads. I dont like my rear bag i have for this stock either. After reading some of your response i do suppose it could be shooter error, but i am usually pretty consistent in my technique. I work very hard to master the same shooting technique shot after shot, but i am human. Like i said above i was thinking an old timer told me that when this happens it is usually a seating depth problem, but i just cant remember. I read so much i tend to forget about half of it. sorry for the mud on the target. there was a fly on a piece of clay target below this target and he had to die. Unfortunately i think he lived! LOL!!! Anyway here is the group in question. I had 2 others just like it but i cant find them. I think they are still on the target in the garage. I will have to look. Thanks for all the replies fellas. I always enjoy reading what you folks have to say. Lee
as you can see, there is a little vertical in the groups as well. this tells me i need to increase the powder charge a bit.
I need to also let you know that this group in it hole state measured a mear .338" not to shabby. If i can get this tweaked in a little, look out!!!
Re: Group seperation??
is this the good group or bad group?
5 rounds in the .3s is tacticool in my book (you are shooting from prone?)
(now stop practicing grouping and hitting targets see http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=724840#Post724840)
is this the good group or bad group?
5 rounds in the .3s is tacticool in my book (you are shooting from prone?)
(now stop practicing grouping and hitting targets see http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=724840#Post724840)
Re: Group seperation??
this is prone shooting with my f-class McMillan stock. .3 is good no question, but this rifle will do better. The hole reason i am even working with this load is the fact that the RE15 is giving me extremely good velocity consistency. 5 shot spread are around 6fps difference. that is what i need to shoot great groups at 600 yards. the varget load i have for this rifle will shoot in the high .1's regularly but my velo numbers arent as good. If i can tweak this re15 load to shoot like the varget load i will have one heck of a comp rifle. I am going to do some more testing this week. Thanks Lee
this is prone shooting with my f-class McMillan stock. .3 is good no question, but this rifle will do better. The hole reason i am even working with this load is the fact that the RE15 is giving me extremely good velocity consistency. 5 shot spread are around 6fps difference. that is what i need to shoot great groups at 600 yards. the varget load i have for this rifle will shoot in the high .1's regularly but my velo numbers arent as good. If i can tweak this re15 load to shoot like the varget load i will have one heck of a comp rifle. I am going to do some more testing this week. Thanks Lee
Re: Group seperation??
Are you sorting your bullets? Could be you have two batches within one box.
Are you sorting your bullets? Could be you have two batches within one box.
Re: Group seperation??
ok
your hand loading
custom stick
ES good
check
what is twist rate of barell?
what is velocity?
what brass?
how far off lands are you?
what is coal?
how are you prepping brass?
how are you throwing powder?
have you ladder tested or OCW tested load?
if stick is capable of .1's then yes lets analyze load.
ok
your hand loading
custom stick
ES good
check
what is twist rate of barell?
what is velocity?
what brass?
how far off lands are you?
what is coal?
how are you prepping brass?
how are you throwing powder?
have you ladder tested or OCW tested load?
if stick is capable of .1's then yes lets analyze load.
Re: Group seperation??
first off guys i told you wrong. I am trying to get the varget load to shoot as it is having the better velo consistency. I havent sorted these bullets. My load is as follows. 32.0gr varget Lapua false shoulder ff method, bullets set firm into the lands, not jammed but definitely in the lands. My muzzle velo for this load is as follows. 1st 2933, 2nd-2933, 3rd-2930, 4th 2936, 5th- 2934. As you can see that is very impressive consistency. the bullet used is a 105 Berger vld. I use a charge master tho throw my charges. If i want a 32gr load i set the charge master for .3gr less and trickle in the rest. My brass prep is basic but consistent. i havent weighed the cases though. the barrel is a Krieger gain twist 8.7-8.3 28" long. I hope all this isn't to premature. I will sort bullets and and weigh my cases and even use formed brass for my next outing. i will post results here. Thanks guys, this is always fun for me. I like these little dilemmas as i aways learn from them with your help. Lee
first off guys i told you wrong. I am trying to get the varget load to shoot as it is having the better velo consistency. I havent sorted these bullets. My load is as follows. 32.0gr varget Lapua false shoulder ff method, bullets set firm into the lands, not jammed but definitely in the lands. My muzzle velo for this load is as follows. 1st 2933, 2nd-2933, 3rd-2930, 4th 2936, 5th- 2934. As you can see that is very impressive consistency. the bullet used is a 105 Berger vld. I use a charge master tho throw my charges. If i want a 32gr load i set the charge master for .3gr less and trickle in the rest. My brass prep is basic but consistent. i havent weighed the cases though. the barrel is a Krieger gain twist 8.7-8.3 28" long. I hope all this isn't to premature. I will sort bullets and and weigh my cases and even use formed brass for my next outing. i will post results here. Thanks guys, this is always fun for me. I like these little dilemmas as i aways learn from them with your help. Lee
Re: Group seperation??
I was thinking about your group. Yesterday I went shooting and played with some variables: powder charge and neck tension. I found that neck tension does not affect group size (as long as it is consistent) but it does affect point of impact. I had two batches, one with low friction necks and another with high friction necks. Both shot the sane size groups, but the low friction necks printed .75" to the right.
The other thing I saw was with powder charge. As I was entering the range of a sweet spot, or exiting, the transitional group looked like yours, i.e. two tight clusters.
With that said, maybe you should increase or decrease your powder charge a bit. Also, can you tell us about your case prep: how much neck tension, how do you clean the inside of your neck, etc.
I was thinking about your group. Yesterday I went shooting and played with some variables: powder charge and neck tension. I found that neck tension does not affect group size (as long as it is consistent) but it does affect point of impact. I had two batches, one with low friction necks and another with high friction necks. Both shot the sane size groups, but the low friction necks printed .75" to the right.
The other thing I saw was with powder charge. As I was entering the range of a sweet spot, or exiting, the transitional group looked like yours, i.e. two tight clusters.
With that said, maybe you should increase or decrease your powder charge a bit. Also, can you tell us about your case prep: how much neck tension, how do you clean the inside of your neck, etc.
Re: Group seperation??
OCW
or
Ladder
round robin style
+1 on case prep
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: biglou13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok
how are you prepping brass?
have you ladder tested or OCW tested load?
</div></div>
OCW
or
Ladder
round robin style
+1 on case prep
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: biglou13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok
how are you prepping brass?
have you ladder tested or OCW tested load?
</div></div>
Re: Group seperation??
Trading out rifles so often you never figure out how to shoot the one you own. Maybe Fletcher can help you out with that one.
Horizontal two grouping can often be diagnosed to be caused by one or both of the following:
- Inconsistent pressure between the face of the trigger and your trigger finger (side pressure on the trigger)
- "Steering" the rifle back to your hold point with side pressure after the rifle has moved from recoil rather than repositioning it laterally to have a good NPA without side pressure during the shot
Trading out rifles so often you never figure out how to shoot the one you own. Maybe Fletcher can help you out with that one.
Horizontal two grouping can often be diagnosed to be caused by one or both of the following:
- Inconsistent pressure between the face of the trigger and your trigger finger (side pressure on the trigger)
- "Steering" the rifle back to your hold point with side pressure after the rifle has moved from recoil rather than repositioning it laterally to have a good NPA without side pressure during the shot
