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Guinness world record for open sight long-distance shooting.

zfk55sr

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
The Swiss K31 holds the title for "long-range rifle, open sites" with Guinness world records.
Ernie Jimenez is the marksman that was logged in with Guinness using his K31 at 1000, 1500, and 2200 yards with an issue rifle.
The rifle pictured is essentially the same rifle in a new custom stock. The entire build was done by our representative in Switzerland, Andrew Zink.
Most of you familiar with these rifles know that the standard scope mount is an offset to the right clamp on mechanism.
For long-distance shooting Mr. Zink is using the OBM (over the bore) system.
We're hoping to hear results from him sometime this summer. The K31 rifle has proven itself to be fully capable of 1000+ yard shooting.
 

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Don't get me wrong, I love my K31. However, what makes it a record? What's the target size? How man shots?

Palma guys shoot X's over and over for 15-20 shots per match on a 1,000 yard target. "Pretty sure" they are more accurate than a K31. ;)

I can see it being labeled the most accurate vintage long distance rifle.
 
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Even though I have not yet seen it, YouTube shows all of those Guinness world records for the K31 with all the answers you probably need, and it was not listed as a vintage rifle, was simply a bolt action rifle of original military issue. And it was open sights, but you probably should watch the video first.
The shooter's name is Ernest Jimenez and you can simply enter K31 Guinness world record in the YouTube search.
 
The k31 is not even close to the best choice for a vintage rifle for shooting long range the caliber also leaves a lot to be desired just a standard 03 A3 will outshoot the k-31 most all of your straight pull actions are extremely weak and are subject to developing headspacing issues. According to Guinness they are not taking or accepting any long range Target records only military kill shots several of us in the ELR community have looked into it and we are all told the same thing not accepting any challenge records. There are many people claiming World Records or most of it is just horseshit claims on YouTube
 
Well, that's objectively true. Even if someone can lob a shot to >2km against a garage door size target the entire exercise is still hideously pointless.
The Barn Door size targets are generally used for 7000, 7500, 8000 yards the two-mile stuff is 35 to 40 in LOL
 
The Barn Door size targets are generally used for 7000, 7500, 8000 yards the two-mile stuff is 35 to 40 in LOL
Yes. I know. I was being deliberately hyperbolic to make a point. Still, the notion of anything much beyond 2km is an unquestionably pointless exercise that gets my Jeff Goldblum finger wagging. Any target that's got a meter wide kill zone is not well addressed by rifle fire, it's best to use artillery or an equivalent at that point. Harassing big targets with small guns is just practicing at picking the wrong tool.
 
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Despite the fact that I've been involved in this since 1959 with my first Swiss long rifle, I bow to your far superior knowledge "bad ass".
I leave the field to those far more knowledgeable than I.
Please show us on the doll where the knowledge that you engage in a practically pointless exercise touched you.
 
Just for the information of the very knowledgeable gentleman expressing his professional views on the weak actions of the Swiss rifles:

In the 60s, Golden State arms and Santa Fe arms both imported the 1911 series rifles including the G11 and the K11. All of those rifles were converted to 308 caliber. The barrels were cut and re-chambered and easily handled the 308 NATO pressures of
62,000 psi. The locking lugs are located midway up the bolt.

After the war K 31s were offered for sale to the general public in the following calibers:

7.5 x 55 55,00.psi
.308 62,000 psi
30/06 58,740 psi (single shot because of cartridge length)
300 Winchester Magnum 64,000 psi
The locking lugs were moved to the boltface for the k31s and the zfk55 Sniper rifles.

I'm going to leave it at this with the hope of, despite being 80 years of age, I might have enough time left to become as knowledge as that gentleman.
Thank you for your time and your comments, gentlemen.
 
Just for the information of the very knowledgeable gentleman expressing his professional views on the weak actions of the Swiss rifles:

In the 60s, Golden State arms and Santa Fe arms both imported the 1911 series rifles including the G11 and the K11. All of those rifles were converted to 308 caliber. The barrels were cut and re-chambered and easily handled the 308 NATO pressures of
62,000 psi. The locking lugs are located midway up the bolt.

After the war K 31s were offered for sale to the general public in the following calibers:

7.5 x 55 55,00.psi
.308 62,000 psi
30/06 58,740 psi (single shot because of cartridge length)
300 Winchester Magnum 64,000 psi
The locking lugs were moved to the boltface for the k31s and the zfk55 Sniper rifles.

I'm going to leave it at this with the hope of, despite being 80 years of age, I might have enough time left to become as knowledge as that gentleman.
Thank you for your time and your comments, gentlemen.
I am no young spring chicken either. LOL I appreciate nostalgic ownership I own lots of antique collectible firearms many of which will not handle more than about 35,000 PSI. I also unusually find it interesting that many of us who appreciate the nostalgic and antique have an idea that because a rifle can handle sammi pressures that some how its strong. Same mindset believes a k98 or a p17 is the strongest actions ever made. When in fact they are not they are extremely weak however farewell with standard rifle cartridge pressures. Some guys even believe because it can handle the 375 H&H cartridge that it must be strong when guys don't understand the very seldom does the H & H Ever achieve over 54,000 PSI. Most of the wartime actions both World War I and World War II suffered from metallurgical issues where the design was fine the quality of alloy was not. And they were definitely not proofed up to 125,000 PSI and higher like modern actions are. As a general rule are they strong no strong enough maybe or at least we hope so.. even actions like the Siamese Mauser some claim to be super strong are not just because you can shoot a large caliber large stature low pressure case without issues does not mean it strong. And we haven't even spoke about whether the stuff is even straight which it rarely is the tolerances on this kind of stuff is atrocious. But again don't get me wrong I like the antique stuff but it's not something I would take out to try to break a record with.
 
The k31 is not even close to the best choice for a vintage rifle for shooting long range the caliber also leaves a lot to be desired just a standard 03 A3 will outshoot the k-31 most all of your straight pull actions are extremely weak and are subject to developing headspacing issues.
Go on?
 
Yes. I know. I was being deliberately hyperbolic to make a point. Still, the notion of anything much beyond 2km is an unquestionably pointless exercise that gets my Jeff Goldblum finger wagging. Any target that's got a meter wide kill zone is not well addressed by rifle fire, it's best to use artillery or an equivalent at that point. Harassing big targets with small guns is just practicing at picking the wrong tool.
Well this is a grossly in accurate statement grounded absolute ignorance. There are in fact several situations to which employment of accurate rifle fire against +1 meter targets at extreme distances are of incredible tactical value on a modern battle field. To suggest otherwise is indicative of a very shallow appreciation both historical and current TTPs.
 
Well this is a grossly in accurate statement grounded absolute ignorance. There are in fact several situations to which employment of accurate rifle fire against +1 meter targets at extreme distances are of incredible tactical value on a modern battle field. To suggest otherwise is indicative of a very shallow appreciation both historical and current TTPs.
Name 1.
 
Just a note as concerns headspacing. Headspace problems with Swiss 7.5mm rifles and good ammunition and are virtually unknown. In all of the years I've done this, and the dozens of Swiss rifles that have passed through here, not one has ever been out of headspace spec, and for a very good reason.
When the barrel is clocked into place against the receiver, it is done with a ramp method, and when it reaches the end of the ramp, the marks are aligned, it is automatically headspaced. I have had go-no go gauges here for 50 years, and it was a pointless purchase. No Swiss rifle coming through here or on any rifle we have ever worked on as been out of headspace specs. I'm including a photo of the barrels for the G11 series and for the K31 series rifles.
Both lock into the corrected head spacing at the extreme end of travel.
barrelshanks_zps7d329854.jpg
t
 
I love me a good milsurp. I should have bought a stack of K31s when they were $99 each.

Me too. The one thing that kept me away was the knowledge that GP11 surplus will eventually dry up. I've read elsewhere that even handloading for a K31 won't get you to the accuracy of the GP11 surplus. I'm sure it's probably bullshit, but it's the excuse I use so I don't hate myself too much for passing on cheap K31s and GP11, haha.
 
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Good morning, Top9. Many reloaders have equal and surpassed the accuracy of the GP11 cartridge.
I'm going to give you a link to one of my archives that will most likely help you. Pay special attention to the
last load data entry concerning RE17. You are going to be pleasantly surprised.
I have to search my older archives for an explanation of the GP11, and though it's pretty long-winded,
the information should answer your question.

The last run of GP11 was made in 1995, but eventual demand started the machinery working again about six years ago. The new production is available in Canada and in Europe for the shooting clubs, but it may be some time before it gets to the US. The only difference is the new cartridge does not have the wax ring and the crimp is somewhat different. Contrary to the rumors about that wax ring floating around the Internet, it was never intended as a lubricant of any kind. It was simply for very long term storage in harsh conditions.
Here is the reloading data link and I'll be back with the full explanation later.
Scroll down to the title listed below.

What Projectiles and Powders should I begin with?​

 
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Name 1.

I though you’d never ask…



ELR engagement of combatants especially in “low-intensity” conflicts like the last 20 years of GWOT has proven incredibly effective from a tactical perspective.



Often times people site the old phrase “well you should just call for artillery/CAS beyond 1000 yards” and when they do it an instant give away that they’ve never served in the complex combative arena that is COIN.



Problem 1 - response time of assets like artillery or CAS is often restricted by the kill chain process, this can take minutes even with CAS on station or gun bunnies ready to rock. Everyone thinks it’s instant, like a movie or video game but the dudes you’re fight aren’t always just dirt squirrels, some of them they’ve been around the block a few times and they understand the concept of the operational decision making cycle. They will shoot and move and be gone long before you get arty or air on target.



Additionally there are many things that often delay assets, release authority for certain munitions, clearing and establishing restricted air space, these things take time.



Problem 2 - assets priority, there’s always something going on an quite frankly you can easily lose an asset to someone else who’s in more dire straits than you. I’ve personally been in some tight spots and had assets pull be cause something else demanded a higher priority tasking.



Problem 3 - proximity to civilians, collateral damage is a real thing.



So yeah I’ve got a PKM team (2 dudes sitting together - approximately 1x1 meter target) at the edge of a village tearing through a police checkpoint, the gun teams position is 3.9k from your ODAs position.



Its at the extreme edge of 60mm mortar (highest pre-approved munition for GFC) range so chances of a 60mm HE going wide into the village is 50/50, Artillery is available (never mind the risk of civilian casualties) but it will take 15 minutes to establish the RAZ. Air Weapons Team of AH64s is scrambling but 30 minutes TOT.



Pick your poison. There’s two options to play 1. Might be to bust out a Javelin, it viable but at +$200,000 a pop, these things don’t exactly grow on trees. I am not discounting this as an option due to price, I am just saying the likelihood of this option is probable but not high. Option 2. M107 with a magazine full of Mk211, this will disrupt enemy action with about 1-2 minutes for a fraction of the price AND It’s a standard inventory item.



Part 2



Now that we’ve covered ELR in support of COIN let us explore HTI employment against near/peer threats both in support of convention and unconventional warfare.



So all the problems above remain the same accept now your assets are tasked extremely thin, air superiority is contested, and your arty units have to deal with counter battery. Communication has gone to complete shit part because your opponent is jamming shit and part because everyone is afraid of get DFed.



So we’re back to organic assets



Mortars - while capable of providing a good smashing of light armor, grounded aircraft and troops in the open, are simply too slow to shoot and scoot especially in rough terrain. Their inability to provide timely precision fires on mobile target combined with the logistical troubles of keeping it fed, tends to rule it out in therms of practically.



Javelin - Hands down one of the best anti-armor system but at just a bit more than 50lbs (35ish for any extra missiles) you’re going to be extremely limited and probably want to be very judicial with targeting MBTs only or maybe a strategically situated mobile defense site etc.

This extra weight is going to probably limit your mobility significantly and limited mobility equates to easier targeting for the OPFOR especially moving in/around or even slightly beyond the FLOT.



Now let’s trade that out for M107, 30lbs plus an full mag of mk211, STORM2/INOD brings you to maybe 35lbs. I’d wager you could throw in another 30-40 rounds of ammo on you person and comfortable be below that +50 lbs mark that single Javelin would have brought you to. Additional ammo is easier to cross load than 35lbs missiles making movement on foot through rough terrain or us of say something like dirt bikes significantly easier.



Now obviously you aren’t targeting MBTs, Raufoss won’t scratch the paint…but APCs such as the BMP series are interesting quite vulnerable to Mk211 from any direction barring a direct frontal engagement. Tanks with out infantry support is always a recipe for disaster.



Also I think it’s important to not that due to the true payload capacity of the Mk211, you’re not simply relying on kinetic energy. You get a 4000fps tungsten penetrator on detention regardless of the projectiles velocity. This is something that many folks in this forum overlooked completely. The focus and concern here is very much gear towards monolithic solids which is all fine for fun but I want to break thing and set them on fire with my bullets.



System like mobile ADA sights also present juicy targets that are easily damaged. And of course catch an armored support BN …how long do you think a the MBTs are going to go with out fuel re-supply?



I know this tactic works because I helped rewrite the HTI course at 1st SFG when I was a sniper instructor. I was also able to implement this tactic at the NTC within a massive joint training exercise in 2018 with great success. Our 12 man ODA destroyed 3-4 BMPs, a mobile ADA FDC and helicopter plus about a company’s worth of EKIA, seized a brigade level objective all within 48 hour widow and without a single friendly casualty. It was so effective they purposely removed me from the exercise.



So yeah precision rifle fire on large targets at extreme distances actually does have a place on the modern battlefield.
 
This one from my archives is a bit wordy, but it will explain the story of the GP11 for Towerofpower.
============================================================

Shortly after I got out of the hospital, I saw a post about reverse engineering of the GP 11 cartridge. I couldn't address that then, but I will now.
We'll dispose of the projectile itself in short order. If you look at the diagram, you are going to have to have extremely deep pockets and access to manufacturing equipment to duplicate this projectile. I don't need to get into detail on this as you can see for yourself from the specification and the variables in this projectile, you're not going to duplicate it, so we go to the next best thing. The Berger 175gr VLD (Preferred) and the Hornady ELD. And for performance, the Berger is virtually a dead match for the GP 11 projectile performance wise, assuming that your cartridge prep has been correct.
The Hornady ELD comes in a very close second. You will find the boat tail is approximately 1/64 inch shorter.

For precision and long-range shooting the case prep process is (for us) considered 90% of the entire successful load.

Now for the case. The GP11 case is considered by most, including the Swiss to be a national match caliber case. Unfortunately it is Berdan primed. The next best thing is, if you happen to be in possession of the Swiss national match boxer primed cases, which are going to find, both rare and expensive. Beyond the first 5000 that I brought into this country from RUAG, the balance were brought in by Graf & Sons when I passed the torch to them.

After no more than two months, RUAG stopped the export of this brass because the Board of Directors determined that all of this boxer brass in the hands of American reloaders was going to slow the sales of the remaining GP11 still in Switzerland. It was an economical decision for them and unfortunate for us. From there, that brass went into production in Switzerland and RUAG turned into a number of different hunting loads with different projectiles all sold in Europe. The Brass was the same National Match boxer brass that I brought in some time in 2002.

I find it highly unlikely that (at present) any American manufacturer will duplicate that brass. In all aspects it shakes out more true than Lapua, Norma or anyone else's brass made in our caliber not to mention the wall thickness and weight.

PRVI partisan has proven to be a decent brass for reloading, and if you can find Norma brass, it too is very good for reloading, however remember that Norma brass is very soft and will only stand being annealed so many times before you get a case mouth split.

Crimping. This is also something that you're not going to match, but is not necessary for Swiss bolt action rifles, and unless they are high-power Magnum, the rifles won't require it. The factory crimping involved three points closing in on the case mouth not with a die, but with a machine that did a 360° crimp from three heavy horizontal segments coming in simultaneously around the case mouth.

Suffice it to say that particular feature involves the all-important "neck tension". You're not going to duplicate that, at least not by that process. The closest you are going to come is if you use Redding competition dies and the correct sized collet. When we are introducing a new case to our own system, we order in three collet's. One that we think it is, one slightly larger and one smaller. We let the performance tell us which one were going to settle on.

All of that being said, your chances of actually reverse engineering for production of this this cartridge is as close to zero as it can be. For those of you who don't already know, the .284 brass works really well in the G11 rifles. With the K 31 however, you may get one in 10 cases that do not extract and eject first time because the case rim is a fair bit thinner than GP11 brass.

gp11 projectile.jpg


gp11 case specs.jpg

One last thought about this........... the ladder sight on the K31 does not go to 1500 m just for fun. It's not like a car speedometer that might show 140mph when the engine is in fact only capable of going to 110 or a bit better.
 
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Good morning, Top9. Many reloaders have equal and surpassed the accuracy of the GP11 cartridge.
I'm going to give you a link to one of my archives that will most likely help you. Pay special attention to the
last load data entry concerning RE17. You are going to be pleasantly surprised.
I have to search my older archives for an explanation of the GP11, and though it's pretty long-winded,
the information should answer your question.

The last run of GP11 was made in 1995, but eventual demand started the machinery working again about six years ago. The new production is available in Canada and in Europe for the shooting clubs, but it may be some time before it gets to the US. The only difference is the new cartridge does not have the wax ring and the crimp is somewhat different. Contrary to the rumors about that wax ring floating around the Internet, it was never intended as a lubricant of any kind. It was simply for very long term storage in harsh conditions.
Here is the reloading data link and I'll be back with the full explanation later.
Scroll down to the title listed below.

What Projectiles and Powders should I begin with?​


Yeah, I figured it was just internet forum nonsense, but the production of GP11 starting back up is news to me. Thanks for the link
 
So yeah I’ve got a PKM team (2 dudes sitting together - approximately 1x1 meter target) at the edge of a village tearing through a police checkpoint, the gun teams position is 3.9k from your ODAs position.
Actually had a laugh when I realised this was on Frank's podcast and I heard it before, that was a cool podcast btw.
About the 44 minute mark if anyone is interested.
https://theeverydaysniper.podbean.com/e/the-everyday-sniper-episode-224-rudy-gonsior/

So we’re back to organic assets



Mortars - while capable of providing a good smashing of light armor, grounded aircraft and troops in the open, are simply too slow to shoot and scoot especially in rough terrain. Their inability to provide timely precision fires on mobile target combined with the logistical troubles of keeping it fed, tends to rule it out in therms of practically.



Javelin - Hands down one of the best anti-armor system but at just a bit more than 50lbs (35ish for any extra missiles) you’re going to be extremely limited and probably want to be very judicial with targeting MBTs only or maybe a strategically situated mobile defense site etc.
Is this part of the reason companies are developing small kamikaze/spotter drones?
 
Actually had a laugh when I realised this was on Frank's podcast and I heard it before, that was a cool podcast btw.
About the 44 minute mark if anyone is interested.



Is this part of the reason companies are developing small kamikaze/spotter drones?

Yes but probably not directly. Companies certainly see the feature of drones in combat and thus are attempting to exploit it just like everyone else.

Back to the top, long range rifle/small arms fire is an effective element of combat both historical and current. Technological progression is critical but the fundamentals never truly change, find fix and kill. Not every trigger pull needs to connect in order to effectively shape the battle.
 
Yes but probably not directly. Companies certainly see the feature of drones in combat and thus are attempting to exploit it just like everyone else.

Back to the top, long range rifle/small arms fire is an effective element of combat both historical and current. Technological progression is critical but the fundamentals never truly change, find fix and kill. Not every trigger pull needs to connect in order to effectively shape the battle.

Exactly.... nothing like it being dead quiet and that sonic crack goes over your head and you can't tell where it came from..... Me no likey

Even worse it has gone sub and you just hear it smack into something hard nearby.....

Extremely effective at slowing or denying movement or setting up the other guys for some flanking action or indirect fires in the right situation for sure
 
I am no young spring chicken either. LOL I appreciate nostalgic ownership I own lots of antique collectible firearms many of which will not handle more than about 35,000 PSI. I also unusually find it interesting that many of us who appreciate the nostalgic and antique have an idea that because a rifle can handle sammi pressures that some how its strong. Same mindset believes a k98 or a p17 is the strongest actions ever made. When in fact they are not they are extremely weak however farewell with standard rifle cartridge pressures. Some guys even believe because it can handle the 375 H&H cartridge that it must be strong when guys don't understand the very seldom does the H & H Ever achieve over 54,000 PSI. Most of the wartime actions both World War I and World War II suffered from metallurgical issues where the design was fine the quality of alloy was not. And they were definitely not proofed up to 125,000 PSI and higher like modern actions are. As a general rule are they strong no strong enough maybe or at least we hope so.. even actions like the Siamese Mauser some claim to be super strong are not just because you can shoot a large caliber large stature low pressure case without issues does not mean it strong. And we haven't even spoke about whether the stuff is even straight which it rarely is the tolerances on this kind of stuff is atrocious. But again don't get me wrong I like the antique stuff but it's not something I would take out to try to break a record with.


The brief story is that a guy took a bunch of old beat up Mauser actions and decided to see how much pressure it took to blow them up.

To finally blow up the SWEDISH Mauser M96 action he had to use 41 grains of 2400 in a 8mm case with a Sierra 220 bullet.

He calculated that this load topped 126,000 PSI.

Please go do some more reading before you start talking about how old actions aren't strong.
 

The brief story is that a guy took a bunch of old beat up Mauser actions and decided to see how much pressure it took to blow them up.

To finally blow up the SWEDISH Mauser M96 action he had to use 41 grains of 2400 in a 8mm case with a Sierra 220 bullet.

He calculated that this load topped 126,000 PSI.

Please go do some more reading before you start talking about how old actions aren't strong.
Exposing a thing to as much abuse as it can stand before catastrophically self-destructing in order to demonstrate that it can withstand the previous level of abuse is scientifically and practically worthless but it does tell you a lot about the persons that do such things. I routinely ran a load made of .460 Rowland brass cut to .888" and packed with well over 14gr of Longshot (I won't say how far over but it was not entirely safe) under a 230gr FMJ with a magnum rifle primer. It was enough to push that slug to 2050fps out of a converted Swede Mauser carbine. Peak pressures were certainly much higher than the action was meant to take but peak pressures didn't last long due to the small total weight of the powder charge so the rifle did live a long and productive life. The line in the sand for what kind of stress a metal thing can take isn't catastrophic failure, it's plastic deformation. That wonderful place where things start changing lenght/width/height and tolerances start opening up making subsequent shots progressively less and less safe. To think a swede is okie dokie at 100k psi because it didn't actually fly apart into little bits is facially false. That said, to say that over 35k psi is not safe in such a thing is also facially false and in a way, moreso.
 
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