• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

guns and lawyers.

zjmccauley

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 8, 2014
107
0
Colorado
Every now and then some one will tell me A crazy story about some guy who drew his carry weapon in self defense but gets sued by the deceased's family because he used hydra shok rounds and the man loses because it was "overkill". Same guys say you carrying a weapon modified with some after after market parts will get used against you in court.

Have never actually heard of these kinds of things happening.
Thoughts, knowledge or experience with such things?
 
In the end, it's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. If you injure someone while defending yourself, you're probably gonna get sued even if you are totally in the right. Research lawyers before you need one. Doesn't really answer the question, but I'm not sure there's a good answer.

If you need the upgrade to feel confident using the weapon for self defense, do it. IE, replacing crappy factory sights or an unworkable trigger. I probably wouldn't put a full-race trigger in place of a useable service trigger if I'm worried about what a jury might think, but that's just me.

As far as Hydroshocks being "overkill", a firearm is generally considered lethal force, now the lawyer is putting a degree on dead? Is that like "70% pregnant"? The lawyer you choose needs to be competent enough to counteract the opposition playing on the emotions and irrational fears of the jury. You might be able t make your lawyer's job easier by choosing components and ammo with minimal marketing gimmicks or scary names. "Hydroshock"? Sounds scary. "Critical Defense". Less scary.
 
Last edited:
Anyone can sue anybody for anything, but they won't always win...

In the gravest extreme book they explain some things to help you deal with the trauma of a lethal encounter.

If you carry a firearm for self defense, you may also want to carry 5.3 SHU pepper spray as well.

Pepper spray acts faster than a speeding bullet to decommission to bad guy!
 
The OP is looking for actual examples not conjecture. My guess is he will be waiting awhile. I believe this is an urban legend that won't die.
 
Of course my comment on avoiding scarily-named ammo assumes you can find reasonably named ammo that performs as well as the marketing team's darling. I think the main trick is to get the jury/judge to remember that you wouldn't have had to defend yourself if the other party hadn't taken the actions they did, and the kind of ammo you used and modifications made to the gun are irrelevant.

Yes, anybody can sue anyone for any reason. If you aren't prepared, you might not win.
 
The OP is looking for actual examples not conjecture. My guess is he will be waiting awhile. I believe this is an urban legend that won't die.

Yeah, that too.
I did read an article in Landline magazine a couple years ago about a truck driver who had to defend himself. He got convicted because he fired two shots, the jury felt the first shot was sufficient. The driver claimed the threat was still up and posing a threat after the first shot, but the jury was in no danger, so they listened to the prosecutor, and sent the driver to prison for several years.
 
I've suffered through a few lectures on this topic and what I took away from it was this:

No matter how right you are, you will be judged by 12 people who were dumb enough to end up in jury duty.


As much as we don't view ourselves as victims, that's exactly how you NEED to be portrayed to a jury. The whole "I carry a 45 because they don't make a 46" is all well and good amongst fellow like-minded peers, but it's incredibly unlikely in the parts of America where you're most likely to NEED your weapon that the people on the jury will in any way resemble your actual peers.

Don't give a lawyer any extra ammunition (no pun) to use to paint you as an overzealous evil gun-toting cowboy.

Does any of that have anything to do with reality or common sense? NOPE, but look at jury verdicts in this country and understand that reality or common sense don't factor into the equation.
 
The consequences of employing firearms, even without firing one, is highly likely to involve lawyers.

The time to consider them is the time you decide that specifically defensive firepower should be in your inventory. Consult them before the fact, not after. What you will learn will be highly valuable in the proactive sense.

What I learned is the basic reason why I own no handguns.

I would far rather pick up a sporting shotgun than a defensive handgun if such an occasion were to ever actually occur. It speaks to premeditation, and a demonstrable lack thereof.

I have been shot at with deliberate intent to kill. I know from this experience that even trained soldiers usually can't shoot well enough to save their own lives, primarily because even after 13 months of exposure none of them have ever hit me.

Having competed in 3-gun handgun comp for the better part of a decade, I know that if I were to pick up a handgun in a defensive situation, and that the handgun held ammunition, people are going to get hit. The problem is that even I cannot infallibly certify that they would only be the right people. It is because of this that I do not have handguns conveniently at hand.

Greg
 
Last edited:
My brother has been a cop for 32 years now and his advise was carry the same bullet type the local cops carry. This take most if not all the over kill out of the picture.
 
Forgot to tell you to only talk to your lawyer and make it a good one.

The burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you did not use good and reasonable judgment to claim pure self defense.

And luck may have it that there will be just one eye witness report! YOURS!
 
I posted 100,000 times on usenet, before there were gun forums on the www.
Most of the early www gun forums are gone.
I am registered at ~ 100 gun forums that still exist.

If I were to plot gun forum discussion about concealed carry self defense ammo and court reaction to ammo choice, I would say it peaked in 2002.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, that too.
I did read an article in Landline magazine a couple years ago about a truck driver who had to defend himself. He got convicted because he fired two shots, the jury felt the first shot was sufficient. The driver claimed the threat was still up and posing a threat after the first shot, but the jury was in no danger, so they listened to the prosecutor, and sent the driver to prison for several years.

Citation, please.
 
Anyone can sue anybody for anything, but they won't always win...

In the gravest extreme book they explain some things to help you deal with the trauma of a lethal encounter.

If you carry a firearm for self defense, you may also want to carry 5.3 SHU pepper spray as well.

Pepper spray acts faster than a speeding bullet to decommission to bad guy!

I have heard it all now. This has to be a joke. Please tell me you don't believe this
 
I have heard it all now. This has to be a joke. Please tell me you don't believe this

The level of stupidity possible on this topic with millions of posts over the last two decades is exceeded only by thinking there is any point in contributing.
I would suggest a Google search and read the posts by attorneys.
This is like global warming or 911 truthers, facts have no effect on those who want to believe.

This topic exposes stupidity like pictures of ugly wal mart shoppers expose flesh.
 
All I can think of is this...



Wow! I thought they found a cure for stupid, and it was called Anthrax...Now the problem is they are still looking to cure that.

I need to stop trying to explain myself to stupid people cause my wife said I will never be the Jackass Whisperer...

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.
 
Yeah, I loved "Sound of White Noise" in high school.
 
The consequences of employing firearms, even without firing one, is highly likely to involve lawyers.

The time to consider them is the time you decide that specifically defensive firepower should be in your inventory. Consult them before the fact, not after. What you will learn will be highly valuable in the proactive sense.

What I learned is the basic reason why I own no handguns.

That is New York thinking at its best. In non-communist areas of the country, we believe in freedom and Constitutional rights.

I would far rather pick up a sporting shotgun than a defensive handgun if such an occasion were to ever actually occur. It speaks to premeditation, and a demonstrable lack thereof.

What law school did you attend and for how many years have you practiced criminal law?

Oh, never mind.

But be aware that when you post garbage like this, someone might actually be silly enough to take you seriously. Therefore you are harming the forum. Please PM me your address so that I can mail you a congratulatory T-shirt.

http://rlv.zcache.com/oops_my_butt_...37fbd8bf6b04f368a9f45bc9353a9a0_8nhmp_512.jpg
 
Last edited:
The level of stupidity possible on this topic with millions of posts over the last two decades is exceeded only by thinking there is any point in contributing.
I would suggest a Google search and read the posts by attorneys.
This is like global warming or 911 truthers, facts have no effect on those who want to believe.

This topic exposes stupidity like pictures of ugly wal mart shoppers expose flesh.

So I take it that you would rather have pepper spray rather than a 45 in a gun fight. But as you have stated Washington is a forever blue state. That explains it all
 
load up on pepper spray if that works for ya. I will use a few 180 HP. I don't think I will ever have to do it. But pepper spray better than a 45 slug. I say we let Clark decide what he would like. Let me know Clark what would you like a 45 slug or pepper spray
 
Flase. I used pepper spray once in an altercation and will never use it again.
Anyone can sue anybody for anything, but they won't always win...

In the gravest extreme book they explain some things to help you deal with the trauma of a lethal encounter.

If you carry a firearm for self defense, you may also want to carry 5.3 SHU pepper spray as well.

Pepper spray acts faster than a speeding bullet to decommission to bad guy!
 
So I take it that you would rather have pepper spray rather than a 45 in a gun fight. But as you have stated Washington is a forever blue state. That explains it all

Your conclusion is incorrect.
I have not made any statements about the content, only how much and how it has already been discussed.
 
Your conclusion is incorrect.
I have not made any statements about the content, only how much and how it has already been discussed.

Ok then what would you rather have a 45 or pepper spray. Like most blue states he will avoid a answer. Or it will be a long answer with with no answer. He will do what DEMS do avoid it
 
Last edited:
That is New York thinking at its best. In non-communist areas of the country, we believe in freedom and Constitutional rights.



What law school did you attend and for how many years have you practiced criminal law?

Oh, never mind.

But be aware that when you post garbage like this, someone might actually be silly enough to take you seriously. Therefore you are harming the forum. Please PM me your address so that I can mail you a congratulatory T-shirt.

http://rlv.zcache.com/oops_my_butt_...37fbd8bf6b04f368a9f45bc9353a9a0_8nhmp_512.jpg

Troll much?

I think you may be the first person to ever accuse [MENTION=91]Greg Langelius *[/MENTION] of a poorly thought-out or well-reasoned response on a thread. That either has to be because you're way too smart or way too dumb to follow his reasoning. I guess we'll all have to guess which.

Is everything Greg says "right"? Who the hell knows, but I've yet to ever see him post about anything without clearly having thought out his position and stated it better than most of us.
 
How bout this. People who like guns, take all the guns, then shoot all the lawyers, problem solved, everybody lives happily ever after.
 
So, one example of a relevant report, and a whole lot of conjecture and politically motivated nonsense. Sounds like the nightly news.

I have pepper spray as a primary option, and additional tools to employ as necessary. They're not mutually exclusive, and not every altercation requires lethal force.
 
Is that what he(she?) said (It's hard to tell), Bogey?

He's (She's?, It's?) been the only member on my Ignore list for months and months for reasons that should be readily apparent, and all along I was thinking I had either been spared that brand of ad hominem logic, or maybe he had been cured of his Internet Rabies. Alas, neither is the case.

But thank you for confirming my choice to ignore him. Honestly, when his post came up as being ignored, that reminded me he was still on ignore, and I was seriously thinking it might be time to relent. Unfortunately that is also not the case.

In the future, I'd honestly prefer folks not quote such drivel, as it only displays the illogic I am attempting to keep outside my field of attention.

My attempts to bring this trolling to the attention of the Mods has been ignored except for some folderol about it's all in my head, there's no trouble they can see, the problem originates in my agenda, don't bother reporting anything in the future, and forthwith, that such request should be addressed solely to LL, because I'm no longer to be taken seriously in such matters, and on and on.

Maybe somebody up there really likes me. Or not.

I have done as instructed to bring this up with LL, and he has extended his support to me. I think there could be something at odds here about all this but, it's LL's house, and I am satisfied to assume and accept that what transpires here does so because that is his wish, and I refuse to question his actions; quite the contrary, in fact.

This still creates a subtle climate, however, where the unwritten encouragement is that anyone can say anything as long as it's to or about me.

I've attempted to suggest this concept with the mods, and been bluntly rebuffed, by some, acquiesced by others.

The argument is that I'm trying to win heated disagreement by calling in the mods, and that points directly to paranoia on my part. Personally, I think that all forum catfights are regrettable, and that there is no such thing as 'winning' one.

But who knows, they could be right; I do require psychopharmacological remedies for my PTSD.

But somehow, I just don't think that is the case. What I do think is what I already actually know, that when the time comes for me to report a rules violation, all I get is backtalk.

Maybe some of you could have some actual luck with such means.

Do I get outta hand sometime? You betcha. Sometimes it's easy to see in retrospect that some of my PTSD might coming out to play. There are pills for that and I take them as prescribed, but nothing works all the time.

And Bogey, I recognize that nobody is universally liked, and I would be nuts to need that. It's maybe even likely that everybody has someone out there who dotes on some brand of hatred with their name on it.

If that's actually true, it is regrettable, but it's also certainly nothing to obsess about.

I also recognize that like most others, I sometimes get things wrong. In fact I do that a lot. When I see that, at least I try to set the record straight; most of you out there recognize this is true.

No law school, but a fair amount of time on inner city juries that included gun related offenses.

Also as a Third Party Designee, to serve as a court appointed trustee to take and hold legal possession of another's' firearms which had been temporarily seized over a domestic incident, and deliver them to an FFL for secure storage. When a friend's involved, one steps up.

Beyond that, not much.

I hope this covers it all, and that we can now move on.

Greg
 
Last edited:
How bout this. People who like guns, take all the guns, then shoot all the lawyers, problem solved, everybody lives happily ever after.

There are folks who believe that Shakespeare said something like that, and he did; but it was actually part of a piece of sarcastic conjecture about how one might create a bad policy.

Greg
 
[inane drive redacted]

Greg

Crying like a Nancy boy after you tell us you own no handguns because you do not have the self-control to not shoot the wrong people?

Jeeeez. I thought men participated in this forum.

T-shirt offer still stands.
 
Last edited:
Every now and then some one will tell me A crazy story about some guy who drew his carry weapon in self defense but gets sued by the deceased's family because he used hydra shok rounds and the man loses because it was "overkill". Same guys say you carrying a weapon modified with some after after market parts will get used against you in court.

Have never actually heard of these kinds of things happening.
Thoughts, knowledge or experience with such things?

Massad Ayoob seems to be a strong proponent of that school of thought, at least with respect to evil reloads. Perhaps his writings document some cases where it came up.
 
Every now and then some one will tell me A crazy story about some guy who drew his carry weapon in self defense but gets sued by the deceased's family because he used hydra shok rounds and the man loses because it was "overkill". Same guys say you carrying a weapon modified with some after after market parts will get used against you in court.

Have never actually heard of these kinds of things happening.
Thoughts, knowledge or experience with such things?

Massad Ayoob seems to be a strong proponent of that school of thought, at least with respect to evil reloads. Perhaps his writings document some cases where it came up.
 
A Massad Ayoob post from another forum:

Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court

As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

NH v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

TN v. Barnes

The decedent attacked Robert Barnes and his young daughter with a large knife and was shot to death by the defendant with SJHP .38 Special reloads from a Smith & Wesson Model 36. The distance between the two at the time of the shooting became a key element in the trial, and a misunderstanding of that distance was a primary reason he was charged with Murder. The evidence was messed up in a number of ways in this case, and I do not believe the reloaded ammo (which the prosecution did not recognize to be such until during the trial) was the key problem, but it definitely was part of a problem in reconstructing the case. We were able to do that without GSR evidence, and Mr. Barnes won an acquittal. In this case, I believe the use of factory ammo, combined with proper handling and preserving of the evidence by the initial investigators, would have made the defense much easier and might well have prevented the case from ever being lodged against him.

The records of TN v. Barnes are archived under case number 87297015 at:

Criminal Justice Center
201 Poplar
Suite 401
Memphis, TN 38103

Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems

A man attempted to disarm and murder Corporal Randy Willems of the Davenport, IA Police Department, screaming “Give me your (expletive deleted) gun, I’ll blow your (expletive deleted) brains out.” Willems shot him during the third disarming attempt, dropping him instantly with one hit to the abdomen from a department issue factory round, Fiocchi 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+. The subject survived and stated that the officer had shot him for nothing from a substantial distance away. GSR testing showed conclusively that the subject’s torso was approximately 18” from the muzzle of the issue Beretta 92 when it discharged. Randy was acquitted of criminal charges in the shooting at trial in 1990. Two years later, Randy and his department won the civil suit filed against them by the man who was shot.

I use this case when discussing handloads because it is a classic example of how the replicability of factory ammunition, in the forensic evidence sense, can annihilate false allegations by the “bad guy” against the “good guy” who shot him. The records of State of Iowa v. Corporal Randy Willems are archived in the Iowa District Court in Scott County, Davenport, Iowa. Those from the civil suit, Karwoski v. Willems and the City of Davenport, should be at the Iowa Civil Court of Scott County, also located in Davenport, Iowa.

A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, “No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.”

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob

Source - THR - Page Not Found
 
Let me try to explain the use of pepper spray...
It was never intended to replace the 45 ACP, but the use of force decision should be a non linear one when it comes to protecting innocent life...
If the assailant has a weapon and shows the overt act of using that weapon and that weapon is capable of causing serious bodily harm I will use deadly force to defend innocent life.
The pepper spray is only used in non deadly confrontations!
Hope that helps!
 
Crying like a Nancy boy after you tell us you own no handguns because you do not have the self-control to not shoot the wrong people?

Jeeeez. I thought men participated in this forum.

T-shirt offer still stands.

Wow. So Greg, one of the most thoughtful and even-keeled members of this forum, expresses an opinion about his personal preferences and how they map to the political realities of NY, and you go after him like an ADD afflicted 13 year old. Classy.

Greg Langelius * said:
He's (She's?, It's?) been the only member on my Ignore list for months and months


Good call, I think I'll add Ms. 500 grains to mine.
 
The consequences of employing firearms, even without firing one, is highly likely to involve lawyers.

This is HIGHLY location dependent. In my neck of the woods there have been several righteous shootings in the ten years that I have lived here and I can't recall any that resulted in a trial where the shooter defending his life ended up as the defendant.

Wherever you live in New York is likely different in that regard.
 
I always carry factory defensive ammo that can easily be found on cop holsters. My practice reloads mimic my defensive ammo, and if that is all I had at the moment I would load them up without hesitation, Massad Ayoob notwithstanding.
 
I got about halfway through this thread, and then skipped over the rest in order to throw in my rather useless .02.

I am one of those guys who is relatively immune to OC/pepper spray. I say "relatively" because it does affect my eyes if direct contact is made. Otherwise, getting a face full of OC has been the equivalent of eating peppered beef jerky to me. Pain is incredibly manageable and I retain all of my ability to function (provided I closed my eyes). Going through the non-leathal weapons course and MCMAP, I woudln't want to face somebody like that if I were relying on the OC spray to assist me. I guess I am just lucky. Surprisingly, CS gas destroys me. Doesn't make any sense.

I'll never consider any kind of pepper spray as a self-defense measure other than as an EOF measure.
 
Last edited:
I meant a citation to the actual legal case, not some trucker's magazine.

You're certainly welcome to contact the relevant jurisdiction, possibly contact the author and editorial staff to find the source material to verify the story yourself. Better do it yourself so you can believe the result.
 
Last edited:
Wow! I thought they found a cure for stupid, and it was called Anthrax...Now the problem is they are still looking to cure that.

I need to stop trying to explain myself to stupid people cause my wife said I will never be the Jackass Whisperer...

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

Having perused the contents of your posts, I can only conclude you do not have much experience with escalation of force, or how to determine when lethal force should be the initial force applied. You infer me to be stupid, beyond ignorance because I thought of a song after reading all this thread(which consists mostly of supposition and drivel by a few)
I am immune to Anthrax, but not immune to levels of ignorance such as yours. You should go re-educate yourself on the use of force, escalation of force, recognition of threat, threat assessment, then see what your pepper spray actually is. As to pepper spray, the only tool that is of any use in this catagory is the Kimber. All others are the equivelant of a woman's feel good toy.
If you think to infer me ignorant at your level, you are sadly mistaken. Your level is not even close to my offspring, nor even close to what Panty 6 has. Man, all I can do is shake my head as I think of the level of ignorance you have shown in this thread.
 
Crying like a Nancy boy after you tell us you own no handguns because you do not have the self-control to not shoot the wrong people?

Jeeeez. I thought men participated in this forum.

T-shirt offer still stands.

Well, seeing as Greg is a USMC Vietnam Vet, I'm not sure who the fuck you are calling a "nancy boy"? As for men participating on the forum, so far in this discussion you're the only one who's suspect there, Ace.
 
Hey Jarhead, I was NOT thinking of you as being stupid...

Nice try though.

Jarheads are my favorite people!

If you take the time to listen to my background you may see things that you like.

I am here to share what I know with other patriots that love this country.

We need to work together to protect this nation from harm...
 
Now if you are being sued over some BS like defending yourself, lawyers fees would ruin most people. What is the likelihood that you could counter sue (and win) to cover the costs of your defense? Seems kind of a crappy system that you need to drop 5-150000 to defend yourself, and even if you win, you're left with this massive bill.
Also, I completely agree, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
 
Last edited:
This is HIGHLY location dependent. In my neck of the woods there have been several righteous shootings in the ten years that I have lived here and I can't recall any that resulted in a trial where the shooter defending his life ended up as the defendant.

Wherever you live in New York is likely different in that regard.


I believe it's a good notion to remember anytime a firearm is used defensively--in wherever woods you live. Whether law enforcement, lawyers and formal charges are ultimately involved or not, there is a great likelihood of at least the first two. Most often if you reach the point of justifiably using even the threat of deadly force--meaning the weapon is drawn, let alone fired--police will be involved. Whether there is a body, an injured person, someone just pissed off because their intent was thwarted, or scared then pissed and then scared again about their own troubles when police arrive, someone, often both parties if none are dead or injured, call law enforcement.

Having been a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've been on both sides. Even in my small corner of the world, over the past years I have defended several mom-and-pop folks who were charged due to what someone initially thought was over zealous use of a firearm. While each was ultimately resolved, it didn't prevent someone who was present trying to ascertain a he said she said situation if the threat was high enough and imminent enough to justify their actions. Many times it seems law enforcement, prosecutor and courts will lean towards charging, all stating "probable cause is very low standard."

Therein lies the rub. While the burden of proof to convict, beyond a reasonable doubt for a crime or preponderance in most civil case, is high--the standard to find yourself charged or facing a civil suit only requires a fraction of that.

I carry. And while I certainly hope to never require the need to pull a weapon in my own or families defense, I also personally operate under the belief that if it happens, there will be a resulting police report--and anytime that happens, there is always a chance of charges. None of us are correct 100% of the time police are no different. Even if you are on the right side, when the situation is subject to the interpretation of those that weren't there, especially if there are conflicting accounts, even if you were in the right, there is a chance of initially being charged.

All that said, there is a reason the old saying is still said--I, too, would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Be safe, protect yourself--but also be smart, that's all. To that end, even as much as I love handloading, and load for dozens of cartridges, for my carry guns, I use factory ammo. Make not make a difference at the end of the day, but if my bacon is on the line, it's simply not an issue I even want to have to deal with.
 
Yaknow, I really thought that Moderation was supposed to lean toward the direction of shitcanning the Trolls.

I guess I was wrong. It now appears that (some of?) the Mods treasure the Trolls, maybe because they stir the pot for a better entertainment mix. Maybe even because (some of?) them get some kinda kick from seeing some of us getting harassed by said trolls.

It's your site, too, guys and gals. If that's what we all want, maybe we should say so. If not, maybe we should say that too.

Doncha just love being manipulated by the folks who are supposed to help this place keep an even, polite keel?



Here's my view on handguns in NY.

I have spent over a decade in my past as a 3-Gun Bullseye competitor. I have even been the founder of the New Jersey Marine Corps League Competitive Shooting program (ever heard of the Carlos Hathcock Match?) which, among other things, has trained with the Marine Corps Pistol Teams in Quantico.

Even so, my basic view of handguns is that they are something I'd use to fight my way to where my long guns are. IMHO, Marines are thought of as riflemen, not pistolmen. I only shoot a handgun now on rare occasions, but my aim is just fine, often a lot better than some had expected it to be. Others think differently about handguns from me, and such views have never been a problem for me.

When I moved back to New York, I owned 3 handguns (a Series 70 .45ACP 1911 Gold Cup, a 92FS, and a High Standard Supermatic Trophy II), but stored them with an FFL until I could get the paperwork organized. After seeing the BS my Brother was dealing with as a handgun owner in NY, I figured screw it, I really didn't need a handgun so bad I was willing to let the local po-po sniff my butt every few months like they were doing with my Brother in White Plains, and transferred the 3 HG's to my (then) Son-in-Law. I just flat-out gave them to him. I just don't like that sort of attention.

I have manage to survive the subsequent 15 years here rather comfortably and effectively without any handguns. And if anybody can't take that, they are hereby authorized to suck on my 20ga.

Greg
 
Last edited:
Escalation of force is an old linear concept that has been replaced by a new non linear model that allows you to skip the right into the fray with the proper tools.

I am an old dog that was able to adapt and over come the trap of being stuck in the mud of old school.

It is when we think that we know it all is when we stop learning...