GWOT Toters Of The Mk11 & 12 - C’mon In...

[j-dubya]

In Lone Survivor, they’ve got Ahmad Shah in sight, lasered at ~612m. Lt Murphy asks Luttrell(who’s carrying a Mod 1) if he can hit him from that far? Luttrell replies “negative”.

I would think in the favorable high altitude conditions of Afgh, 612m should be a very good bet.. but what do I know?

There’s a lot more to “making that shot” in real life situations, particularly that one, than slinging a round at a stationary piece of steel and risking having reengage that same stationary target to ‘get your hit’.

Wasn’t it Luttrell who still had his full load out when he was captured?

Let’s not bring that shit in here.

 

[j-dubya]

Since it was brought up, let’s use the Shah situation to frame a scenario for this very thread: let’s say theres a target, that’s not quite as high on the High Value list like the Lone Survivor example. But a considerable amount of time and resources have been expended to track our scenario’s target to the village, and if you choose to make your shot, you better connect. You spoil it, they all scatter, and the target has the means to retaliate on the locals and our allies in the area.

Notice I said, “if you choose to make the shot”. There’s no QRF, no air support, no follow-on action. If you elect to engage, you can save lives. If you engage and miss, he now knows he’s being targeted and will disappear to continue his agenda while in hiding. He can continue to give orders costing lives, and now you won’t have another chance at him.

Just like the Lone Survivor situation, you toted out YOUR 5.56. It’s been touted that those shorter barrels, all the way down to 10.5” even...can still “get those same hits as the longer and heavier platforms”.

Do you make that shot?

(I tried to come up with a mission statement with language all can hopefully understand...)

 

[dms416]

Since it was brought up, let’s use the Shah situation to frame a scenario for this very thread: let’s say theres a target, that’s not quite as high on the High Value list like the Lone Survivor example. But a considerable amount of time and resources have been expended to track our scenario’s target to the village, and if you choose to make your shot, you better connect. You spoil it, they all scatter, and the target has the means to retaliate on the locals and our allies in the area.

Notice I said, “if you choose to make the shot”. There’s no QRF, no air support, no follow-on action. If you elect to engage, you can save lives. If you engage and miss, he now knows he’s being targeted and will disappear to continue his agenda while in hiding. He can continue to give orders costing lives, and now you won’t have another chance at him.

Just like the Lone Survivor situation, you toted out YOUR 5.56. It’s been touted that those shorter barrels, all the way down to 10.5” even...can still “get those same hits as the longer and heavier platforms”.

Do you make that shot?

(I tried to come up with a mission statement with language all can hopefully understand...)

Once upon a time, this wouldn't need to be said here.

 

[RTV]

Since it was brought up, let’s use the Shah situation to frame a scenario for this very thread: let’s say theres a target, that’s not quite as high on the High Value list like the Lone Survivor example. But a considerable amount of time and resources have been expended to track our scenario’s target to the village, and if you choose to make your shot, you better connect. You spoil it, they all scatter, and the target has the means to retaliate on the locals and our allies in the area.

Notice I said, “if you choose to make the shot”. There’s no QRF, no air support, no follow-on action. If you elect to engage, you can save lives. If you engage and miss, he now knows he’s being targeted and will disappear to continue his agenda while in hiding. He can continue to give orders costing lives, and now you won’t have another chance at him.

Just like the Lone Survivor situation, you toted out YOUR 5.56. It’s been touted that those shorter barrels, all the way down to 10.5” even...can still “get those same hits as the longer and heavier platforms”.

Do you make that shot?

(I tried to come up with a mission statement with language all can hopefully understand...)

if you answer isnt that you would much rather have a .338LM you're doing it wrong.

very valid point though people who have never been in combat ALWAYS imagine it as being something they see in movies with bullets flying everywhere no one knowing what the Fk is going on and all in all quantity of fire vs quality of fire unless your a sniper (which movies also butcher beyond recognition.} then throw in our little SHTF fantasies and all of a sudden we might as well be explaining why a katana is the best self defense weapon with all the reality based logic we are using LOL

 

[Dogtown]

Hey now, I remember that motorpool SPC at the Mosul airfield back in 2005 who went everywhere with a katana on his back.

 

[j-dubya]

The purpose was not so much a “gotcha” question, but to bring relevance to the points previously being discussed in this thread.

Let’s take the combat/life or death/yada yada out of it but still keep the stakes high relevant to this thread. So a parallel to that cheesy scenario in the competition world could be this: a KYL stage.

If you choose to engage, you must start at the smallest plate. If you hit, you then can engage the rest of them gaining bonus points that will ensure high placement or even winning the match. Engage and miss, and you have a significant amount of points deducted. A big win or a big lose. (I have no idea if a stage like this exists). You may also choose to forgo the stage and not risk the points loss. Nothing gained either.

Keep in mind that this is an operational tool that you’re hauling around, and not some super long, made for comps only-type of 28” barrel rifle...

You’ve brought out your 5.56 of choice.

Do you choose to make the shot?

 

[SFree]

Which is why I asked the question of when/why a bolt gun is brought in to play, given the mountain region, roof top scenarios. If mission becomes fluid and contact is inevitable, say even at medium ranges (beyond 600m), ya have to run what ya “brung”... What is preferable? Kevin Owens mentioned large frame gasser as his preference, little more distance, but still able to fight with it.
I know nothing, just making conversation

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Since it was brought up, let’s use the Shah situation to frame a scenario for this very thread: let’s say theres a target, that’s not quite as high on the High Value list like the Lone Survivor example. But a considerable amount of time and resources have been expended to track our scenario’s target to the village, and if you choose to make your shot, you better connect. You spoil it, they all scatter, and the target has the means to retaliate on the locals and our allies in the area.

Notice I said, “if you choose to make the shot”. There’s no QRF, no air support, no follow-on action. If you elect to engage, you can save lives. If you engage and miss, he now knows he’s being targeted and will disappear to continue his agenda while in hiding. He can continue to give orders costing lives, and now you won’t have another chance at him.

Just like the Lone Survivor situation, you toted out YOUR 5.56. It’s been touted that those shorter barrels, all the way down to 10.5” even...can still “get those same hits as the longer and heavier platforms”.

Do you make that shot?

(I tried to come up with a mission statement with language all can hopefully understand...)

How much does the decision making process change when you have 2 snipers(Axe and Luttrell) but still both with 5.56? Both snipers on the same target.. In that case Id say yeah why not, take the shot. Thats two snipers with Mod 1's, twice as many follow ups if necessary.. hopefully snuff Shah and then as many of his guys as possible, go through say 1 mag and then start scooting the fck out.?

Is that gonna get everyone killed still anyway? Or possibly heavily change the dynamic? Obviously hindsight being 20/20...

 

[Bambamoda]

How much does the decision making process change when you have 2 snipers(Axe and Luttrell) but still both with 5.56? Both snipers on the same target.. In that case Id say yeah why not, take the shot. Thats two snipers with Mod 1's, twice as many follow ups if necessary.. hopefully snuff Shah and then as many of his guys as possible, go through say 1 mag and then start scooting the fck out.?

Is that gonna get everyone killed still anyway? Or possibly heavily change the dynamic? Obviously hindsight being 20/20...

I got to play on a ridge with 2 other snipers. Was good fun.

 

[dms416]

How much does the decision making process change when you have 2 snipers(Axe and Luttrell) but still both with 5.56? Both snipers on the same target.. In that case Id say yeah why not, take the shot. Thats two snipers with Mod 1's, twice as many follow ups if necessary.. hopefully snuff Shah and then as many of his guys as possible, go through say 1 mag and then start scooting the fck out.?

Is that gonna get everyone killed still anyway? Or possibly heavily change the dynamic? Obviously hindsight being 20/20...

Coordinated fire is going to up your percentage/odds of success.

Hard to play the "what if" game, but given the terrain depicted in the movie (since that's what we're going on), guessing it's gonna be a 1-and-done in the hope of maintaining some modicum keeping their location concealed (assuming no one knows they're already there...which has been a subject of debate), and assuming the only threats are in the target's immediate area.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

In Lone Survivor, they’ve got Ahmad Shah in sight, lasered at ~612m. Lt Murphy asks Luttrell(who’s carrying a Mod 1) if he can hit him from that far? Luttrell replies “negative”.

I would think in the favorable high altitude conditions of Afgh, 612m should be a very good bet.. but what do I know?

Things that never happened for $1200 Alex.

Sorry not trying to deraill, LS has some great mk12 action but the movie and book are almost complete fabrications.

Carry on.

 

[j-dubya]

How much does the decision making process change when you have 2 snipers(Axe and Luttrell) but still both with 5.56? Both snipers on the same target.. In that case Id say yeah why not, take the shot. Thats two snipers with Mod 1's, twice as many follow ups if necessary.. hopefully snuff Shah and then as many of his guys as possible, go through say 1 mag and then start scooting the fck out.?

Is that gonna get everyone killed still anyway? Or possibly heavily change the dynamic? Obviously hindsight being 20/20...

Decision making process must go way beyond the actual shooting part. Another thing to consider is this was 2005... Rifle/ammo data, atmospherics, understanding of ballistics, etc were very different then. Also keep in mind that a “trained sniper” falls somewhere on a very large spectrum of capability...depending on his role and how passionate he is about knowing the craft. Mk262’s powder temp variation could have been in the realm of 8-12” in elevation difference at that range coming from a cold night to the day warming up. Start combining any of those variables, mix in an individual’s confidence in ability to deliver, and you see where this is going.

Out of respect for those men, I won’t speak to the operational things of that day.

Edit - regardless of ‘truths’ of that day, let’s just not go there. Keep the thread on the subject of shooting and getting hits!

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Decision making process must go way beyond the actual shooting part. Another thing to consider is this was 2005... Rifle/ammo data, atmospherics, understanding of ballistics, etc were very different then. Also keep in mind that a “trained sniper” falls somewhere on a very large spectrum of capability...depending on his role and how passionate he is about knowing the craft. Mk262’s powder temp variation could have been in the realm of 8-12” in elevation difference at that range coming from a cold night to the day warming up. Start combining any of those variables, mix in an individual’s confidence in ability to deliver, and you see where this is going.

Out of respect for those men, I won’t speak to the operational things of that day.

Yea the book should have been titled:

"How SEAL commanders killed 20 men due to their gross incompetence, we
then made up a bunch of lies, Gave everyone medals, and just confirmed what everyone in SOCOM already knew about us.

Its the sequal to " I killed a fellow SEAL in training and they still let me run a team in Afganistan"

The trillogy is "Had to get rescued by the same Rangers we routinely shit on".

 

[Bambamoda]

Yea the book should have been titled:

"How SEAL commanders killed 20 men due to their gross incompetence, we
then made up a bunch of lies, Gave everyone medals, and just confirmed what everyone in SOCOM already knew about us.

Its the sequal to " I killed a fellow SEAL in training and they still let me run a team in Afganistan"

The trillogy is "Had to get rescued by the same Rangers we routinely shit on".

Yeah. A 10th group team turned down the mission. dev group turned it down and.......some squeal team took it.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Yeah. A 10th group team turned down the mission. dev group turned it down and.......some squeal team took it.

If you havent had a chance yet, pick this book up. Its fantastic and helps setup the situation and clarifies what really happened.

Victory Point: Operations Red Wings and Whalers - the Marine Corps' Battle for Freedom in Afghanistan: Darack, Ed: 9780425232590: Amazon.com: Books

Victory Point: Operations Red Wings and Whalers - the Marine Corps' Battle for Freedom in Afghanistan [Darack, Ed] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Victory Point: Operations Red Wings and Whalers - the Marine Corps' Battle for Freedom in Afghanistan

www.amazon.com

I know @LRRPF52 would love to post about it ,

 

[PBWalsh]

I love the information in this thread. Its actually making me reconsider my ACOG in favor of something with actual turrets.

 

[RTV]

Yeah. A 10th group team turned down the mission. dev group turned it down and.......some squeal team took it.

Wait SOCOM teams get to choose their missions?

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Wait SOCOM teams get to choose their missions?

Read the book. (Not lone survivor, lord of the rings is less fiction).

The origional plan was for a 6 man Marine scout sniper team to go in. The absolute smallest element that could provide its own security, not to mention masters of special reconnisance and infantry skills, 2 things SEALs suck ass at.

BIG dick faggot SEAL commander in charge of SOCOM task force would not lend socom birds for the mission, as regular aviation units were not available.

So he gave the mission to a 4 man seal team. A whole book could be written about the incompetence , lack of skills and mission planning in the SEAL community and all of that culminates into alot of Americans Dying for nothing. Shah was a low level nobody that only gained notoriety after killing 20 Americans.

Mission should have never happened and even if it did, it wouldnt be with 4 green SDV operators who were way over their heads. Senior leadership failed them that mission, especially as it went down should have never been signed off on. It violated about 30 principles of basic reconnisance.

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

I think choosing “Lone Survivor” as a study piece is an unfortunate choice. I understand that most people are unaware of the narrative beyond what’s told in the book (movies) so I suspect it’s not meant to be distasteful but curiosity place out of ignorance.

Having sat through the red side briefing on the even, trust me when I say its a topic of discussion better left to those who vocation it pertains to.

In regards to how the Mk12’s were typically employed, I’ll say this much, the depiction shown in Lone Survivor would have been considered A-typical given the mission set briefed. Simply put that would have been the wrong tool for the job.

The hit probabilities I presented earlier in this thread represents the properly equipped and sustained SOF sniper under the idea environmental circumstances. There are precious few sniping scenarios in which dual Mk12s would serve you as an optimal choice.

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

Wait SOCOM teams get to choose their missions?

Yes-ish

Teams can turn down missions. It’s not exactly “choosing” but there are situations where the economy of effort just isn’t there. Many times it’s comes down to support assets available/priority. You’ll find very few commanders willing say “no” as it puts them in a tight spot with higher.

Fact is usually we have the opposite problem of risk adverse SOTF commanders who are there just to punch a ticket for political gains and could give two fucks about getting work done. I mean why do you think we’ve been there for 2 decades?

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I think choosing “Lone Survivor” as a study piece is an unfortunate choice. I understand that most people are unaware of the narrative beyond what’s told in the book (movies) so I suspect it’s not meant to be distasteful but curiosity place out of ignorance.

Having sat through the red side briefing on the even, trust me when I say its a topic of discussion better left to those who vocation it pertains to.

In regards to how the Mk12’s were typically employed, I’ll say this much, the depiction shown in Lone Survivor would have been considered A-typical given the mission set briefed. Simply put that would have been the wrong tool for the job.



The hit probabilities I presented earlier in this thread represents the properly equipped and sustained SOF sniper under the idea environmental circumstances. There are precious few sniping scenarios in which dual Mk12s would serve you as an optimal choice.

I dont remember exactly if it was from the book or 2nd hand account but i dont think it was a kill mission. I think they were supposed to get eyes on and either call in air or give the commanders the intel they needed to conduct a larger raid with blocking elements.

A 4 man element is just way to small to pick a fight in indian country in that terrain that far from QRF. The marines understood this and i suspect if it was their mission we would have never even heard of red wings or ahmad shah.

 

[flyfisherman246]

I dont remember exactly if it was from the book or 2nd hand account but i dont think it was a kill mission. I think they were supposed to get eyes on and either call in air or give the commanders the intel they needed to conduct a larger raid with blocking elements.

A 4 man element is just way to small to pick a fight in indian country in that terrain that far from QRF. The marines understood this and i suspect if it was their mission we would have never even heard of red wings or ahmad shah.

Damn, that’s harsh!!! Hahaha

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

Damn, that’s harsh!!! Hahaha

Honestly every thing that has been said thus far in this thread has been relatively tempered in regards to the event.

I am not going to try say what dudes can or cannot talk about but there is so much misinformation regarding the operational aspects that the best case scenario if we keep trying to use this operation as a diagram of early GWOT snipery is this thread just turns into a quagmire of uninformed opinion of the unInitiated.

Worse case scenario is someone is going say something stupidly regrettable (probably unintentionally) and feelings are going to get hurt.

Most people who know me, will note that I am pretty open regarding my experience and I love offering what context I can based off of my service. That said I doubt I am going to bother sticking around this thread if it continues along this plot trajectory. I think there some great potential in this conversation but we’re flirting with some pretty thin ice.

 

[j-dubya]

Honestly every thing that has been said thus far in this thread has been relatively tempered in regards to the event.

I am not going to try say what dudes can or cannot talk about but there is so much misinformation regarding the operational aspects that the best case scenario if we keep trying to use this operation as a diagram of early GWOT snipery is this thread just turns into a quagmire of uninformed opinion of the unInitiated.

Worse case scenario is someone is going say something stupidly regrettable (probably unintentionally) and feelings are going to get hurt.

Most people who know me, will note that I am pretty open regarding my experience and I love offering what context I can based off of my service. That said I doubt I am going to bother sticking around this thread if it continues along this plot trajectory. I think there some great potential in this conversation but we’re flirting with some pretty thin ice.

Agreed, and I will say it was poor judgment on my part to tag along on that bandwagon in the first place since the subject was brought up in the thread. I jumped on it as low hanging fruit for framework since the media versions have already ‘painted the picture’ for everyone, regardless of how fictitious that ‘picture’ is. I have also received official and unofficial details of that day, and why I prefer to just keep to myself on the whole subject. My previous posts I thought I could split hairs. Bad call.

Perhaps it’s best to just leave operational scenarios out of this thread. The competition scenario outlined above should serve well enough to get the point across for a discussion, as the original point of this thread was intended to revolve around these main points:

- hit probability at the upper end of your chambering’s capability
- shooter’s hit probability at the upper end of their platform’s capability
- how those two are factored in to realistic movement when being carried as a primary
- individual’s choice in spec’ing their platform for such

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Ok if LS is too controversial, let’s say you’re in Iraq, urban terrain, you could set up on a rooftop, or second/third story room, etc, providing overwatch for guys on the street below. Ranges anywhere from 50-700m, Mk 12 vs Mk 13 .300 WM, at what point does the higher precision/hit probability of the .300 Win Mag outweigh the ability to send instant follow ups? 500m? 600? Considering you’re engaging targets that know they’re in a fight, I’d have to imagine the semi auto capability is worth its weight in gold in that scenario, no?

 

[j-dubya]

Well, see now your deviating from the point of this thread! Of course a winmag is going to be your better choice for a supported overwatch position. Even for 3-400m... You hauled it out...

But let’s take your scenario and bring it back to the point of this thread: let’s say you were out on another mission where you had been toting an 11 or 12...and now you’ve been retasked into the exact scenario you described. Thieves no going back to your stash to refit, just run what you brung. This type of thing happened more often than not.

Now you have to start running the numbers on what your true capabilities are with what you have. So if you’re a designated hitter with your chosen 5.56 platform, or chosen 7.62, where does that land you?

 

[Bambamoda]

Ok if LS is too controversial, let’s say you’re in Iraq, urban terrain, you could set up on a rooftop, or second/third story room, etc, providing overwatch for guys on the street below. Ranges anywhere from 50-700m, Mk 12 vs Mk 13 .300 WM, at what point does the higher precision/hit probability of the .300 Win Mag outweigh the ability to send instant follow ups? 500m? 600? Considering you’re engaging targets that know they’re in a fight, I’d have to imagine the semi auto capability is worth its weight in gold in that scenario, no?

For sure. Time of flight is huge when your targets are moving as is time to follow on shots - which brings in to play recoil management which 5.56 would beat out 308 and 300 any day. On an urban playground you’re not exactly getting pristine shooting positions so a heavy recoil bolt gun may not resettle until the tgt is out of sight.

the current M855A1 with an SPR would make for an awesome combo.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Travis Haley became a household name in the gun industry for putting in serious work from a rooftop in Iraq holding off a large assault with a Mk12/SAM-R type accurzed rifle. This is really when people started to about this gun and they became a topic of conversations on the gun board. At the time I was building similar uppers with Noveske barrels and sold ALOT of people going overseas, mostly EOD who did not have M107 at the time to do ballistic detonations of suspected IED's.

The MK12 is a great platform for putting high volume of accurate fire in urban areas. Where PID is critical and you may only have a second or two of partially exposed dickhead being able to make that quick accurate shot is critical.

I was not SOF so don't quote me but I think the MK12 was more of a DMR rifle in its application than a true SWS. The M24 and then the MK13 were the real workhorses, with the MK11/SR25 coming on when they knew it would be more of a gunfight than true static overwatch. I would assume most snipers would rather have the SR25 for its range and energy if given the choice between the two. Its really not that much bigger or heavier than a fully outfitted MK12 with the Ops can.

The same reason the 1-X FFP are so popular.

 

[j-dubya]

I think it also needs to be said there is a large spectrum of what one could be overmatching for... in the exact scenario above: are you on overwatch for IED emplacers? Suicide bomber? VBIED? Or are you preparing for human wave attacks? Without getting into half a dozen different interpretations of any given scenario here, keep it focused on gas gun length/weights and their pros and cons. Rooftop workshops like 28 Weeks Later were not all that common in GWOT. The winmag shooter will be putting that thing down and grabbing the closest available gas gun for something like that...

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Though I reckon this could be a Russian thermal mounted on a Dragunov, I have to imagine it’s probably a Mk 12 or 11 + thermal that these assholes stole off one of our guys. Hopefully IR discipline is changing accordingly tho regardless of where they’re getting thermals/NV, we don’t have a “patent” on night fighting any longer, if we ever even really did...

 

[j-dubya]

Though I reckon this could be a Russian thermal mounted on a Dragunov, I have to imagine it’s probably a Mk 12 or 11 + thermal that these assholes stole off one of our guys. Hopefully IR discipline is changing accordingly tho regardless of where they’re getting thermals/NV, we don’t have a “patent” on night fighting any longer, if we ever even really did...

Am I the only one who heard Reveille playing during that?

 

[Evolution 9]

That’s a Pulsar thermal... that’s what can be done with a budget thermal...

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Was it ever possible to send a shot down range confirming dope?
Correct me if wrong, but I believe it was @Victory said that if circumstances allowed, they’d confirm dope by sending a round into the side of a mountain or what have you, before any potential targets showed up of course. I believe @Victory was talking about the Remington M2010(suppressed) in particular in this case if my memory serves.. hopefully he’ll chime in..

 

[RackSqueezeBang]

Any thoughts on sigs .277 fury with its 80,000 psi of pressure shooting a 6.8 at almost 3,000fps out of a 16” barrel. Is this the beat of both worlds?

 

[Dogtown]

It's probably going to be like 1990 ACR program's G11..."man that's so awesome, but faaaaaark the recoil is sucktacular." Physics, man...every time.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

It's probably going to be like 1990 ACR program's G11..."man that's so awesome, but faaaaaark the recoil is sucktacular." Physics, man...every time.

This.
JMO but I doubt it ends up taking the place of 5.56 ..

Maybe @THEIS can weigh in on that tho? @THEIS is SIG any closer to adoption of the round? I had read that a couple other competitors were doing better than SIG but that was a while back..

But FWIW.. whether Sig ever brings that round to market or not, @THEIS is working on his own line of steel-based case high pressure rounds that hopefully we will see on the market regardless. There are definitely some advantages to running extra high pressures, but I don’t think those advantages are best utilized, or even fully realized in a primary combat carbine...

 

[Ndbowhunter]

I have no military experience but a great deal of experience with the AR platform in my varmint hunting, deer hunting and guiding as well as deer culling. Overall a very great number of rounds on target. I am on my 5Th barrel on my main AR.

First I would say Rudy is absolutely correct in his evaluation of hit % and range. I do not shoot mine past 600M but to that range his experience is exactly what I observe.

All references below are to actual issue Mk 262 Ammo. Not BH equivalent etc. Nothing works like the real deal 262.

I have never in any instance seen evidence of a bullet tumbling once it strikes. Not once. I recently ask the worlds most experienced big game hunter if he had ever observed bullet tumbling. He has not. This man has hunted about everything that walks, been on over 125 safaris and thousands of hunts worldwide.

I am not saying it does not happen and am interested in actual results showing it. I also don't think tumbling bullets are the answer to lethality. Why go to the trouble to perfectly place a bullet only to have it go somewhere else? I am simply curious about the claims.

I also see a large difference in the kills with barrels from 11.5"-18" on game.
My observations differ with others and I cannot explain the reason.
Much as I like the 11.5" barrels I find them miserable killers. So much so that I simply do not use them in the field.
16" barrels are quite usable and effective.
18" barrels stand apart from all shorter barrels and the difference is obvious in the kills.

I also wonder about folks having issue with carrying an 18" AR with a suppressor. I guide ladies and smaller children who carry my rifle with no issue. (I carry bino, spot and a RRS tripod. )

Just my personal observations.View attachment 7521450View attachment 7521449Photos added from one of this week's youth hunters. Holes are exit wounds. Both shots well placed at 130 and 250 meters. Mk 12 and Mk 262 get it done for us. That is my well used AR on it’s 5th barrel.

sierra SMk have a long history of being variable performance on game.. the 77gr smk is no different. especially below that 2400fps threshold.

whereas 77gr tmk is very predictable on critters down to 1900ps..

i don't take carry my phone afield or take pictures of wounds too much. but this is a pretty normal scenario when using the 77 tmk. switched over to the 75gr eld-m but only due to higher velocity and better bc at aics confines. it turns a 223 into a 600 yard bang flop machine

on the 77tmk, expect bang flop and soupy insides above 2200, quick death but wound track much more similar to typical mushrooming bullets below that to about 1900 or so.

 

[TheGerman]

I've carried everything right up before the M2010 was a thing.

Thread is going in 14 different directions.

Whats the intended question, in 1-2 sentences?

 

[RTH1800]

sierra SMk have a long history of being variable performance on game.. the 77gr smk is no different. especially below that 2400fps threshold.

whereas 77gr tmk is very predictable on critters down to 1900ps..

i don't take carry my phone afield or take pictures of wounds too much. but this is a pretty normal scenario when using the 77 tmk. switched over to the 75gr eld-m but only due to higher velocity and better bc at aics confines. it turns a 223 into a 600 yard bang flop machine

on the 77tmk, expect bang flop and soupy insides above 2200, quick death but wound track much more similar to typical mushrooming bullets below that to about 1900 or so.
View attachment 7547739

Not much here agrees with my experience in 50 years of hunting and 35 years of guiding.

 

[Evolution 9]

Not much here agrees with my experience in 50 years of hunting and 35 years of guiding.

All of it agrees with my very extensive hunting experience on North American big game. What part of what he said doesn’t fit with your experience?

And not to (intentionally) be a dick, but two of the three rounds he listed have only been in existence a handful of years making it impossible for most of your 50 years of hunting to contain any experience with them.

 

[RTH1800]

First paragraph is not my experience. The SMK is very predictable.

The “600 yard bang flop” statement is simply bullshit. I have shot deer with everything from 22 short to .375 H&H and nothing is “bang flop” to 600 yards consistently.

 

[j-dubya]

Was it ever possible to send a shot down range confirming dope?
Correct me if wrong, but I believe it was @Victory said that if circumstances allowed, they’d confirm dope by sending a round into the side of a mountain or what have you, before any potential targets showed up of course. I believe @Victory was talking about the Remington M2010(suppressed) in particular in this case if my memory serves.. hopefully he’ll chime in..

Sure. More common for 100m zero confirmation though, as that was more critical to some. Certain types of outings facilitated this nicely. Scopes/rifles taking hard hits for whatever reason led to a certain paranoia for always ensuring something hadn’t moved and the known starting point is retained. This is in addition to frequent range time while back at the big bases.

 

[j-dubya]

I've carried everything right up before the M2010 was a thing.

Thread is going in 14 different directions.

Whats the intended question, in 1-2 sentences?

OP puts context to them, but in as few words as possible: having had to carry longer and heavier platforms - because that’s what was had at the time - and knowing that you made do with the length and weight, would you stick with those weight and length ranges again to take advantage of better chamberings now, or is it “shorter and lighter” all the way...? Regardless of potential negative effects of getting the round on target when called upon.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

First paragraph is not my experience. The SMK is very predictable.

The “600 yard bang flop” statement is simply bullshit. I have shot deer with everything from 22 short to .375 H&H and nothing is “bang flop” to 600 yards consistently.

168’s absolutely are shit for terminal performance. I ain’t guessing.

As for the 77gr variety i’ll take your experience and Quote you from a different thread

“What I do know is that Mk 262 and every other round I have tried is a miserable killer in an 11.5" barrel.”

That’s exactly what I said. Below 2400 FPS the 77gr smk shows variable performance.

Go load a 75gr eld-m with a light charge of blue dot, hit a whitetail high shoulder at 2000 FPS, video it and i’ll Send you a brick of 22lr if it takes more the 5 steps. Grab a pic too.

I’ll give you a hint.. aics confines in my atmospheres during hunting season that’s beyond 600 yard impact with a case full of lever.

I ain’t guessing.

As for bullet tumbling. I still got a bent Barnes tsx somewhere. found on the off shoulder of a grizz. Not sure how it got bent but i’d Guess it tumbled.

Carry on. My point was i’d Worry about bullets a lot more then barrel length or head stamps on a cartridge in regards to platform selection. Good talk.

 

[TheGerman]

OP puts context to them, but in as few words as possible: having had to carry longer and heavier platforms - because that’s what was had at the time - and knowing that you made do with the length and weight, would you stick with those weight and length ranges again to take advantage of better chamberings now, or is it “shorter and lighter” all the way...? Regardless of potential negative effects of getting the round on target when called upon.

That's probably one of the biggest 'it depends' questions ever.

What I'm taking is determined by the actual mission and planning layout. The shooting/ballistics/caliber part is very little consideration past what the expected distances are if everything goes perfectly, what they could be if it doesn't (based off of routes towards EZ,LZ), and what the possibilities were of encountering something other than the specific mission objective/target as well as what our current intelligence cycle on target/target area is.

The platform was chosen based off of this 'metric' almost like a flowchart.

The other consideration basically noone has noted was, what happens when you're not shooting at shit 700m away like you thought you would be, and you brought X rifle with you?

The only platform I usually didn't take a carbine along with was a Mk12 when I had a MRDS on it. Reason being that I had it set up to basically use it as a 18" carbine with the suppressor off of it, and could also passively aim at night with nightvision, or put a clip on on the rail, depending on what was going on.

I can't say any of that for the 110, M24, 107 or M14/M21 and always had a carbine along.

 

[j-dubya]

I’ll give you a hint.. aics confines in my atmospheres during hunting season that’s beyond 600 yard impact with a case full of lever.

That right there is a big hint...

 

[Ndbowhunter]

What is an MRDS?

 

[camocorvette]

What is an MRDS?

Mini Red Dot Sight

 

[Ndbowhunter]

I’m a retard. Thanks

 

[j-dubya]

That's probably one of the biggest 'it depends' questions ever.

What I'm taking is determined by the actual mission and planning layout. The shooting/ballistics/caliber part is very little consideration past what the expected distances are if everything goes perfectly, what they could be if it doesn't (based off of routes towards EZ,LZ), and what the possibilities were of encountering something other than the specific mission objective/target as well as what our current intelligence cycle on target/target area is.

The platform was chosen based off of this 'metric' almost like a flowchart.

The other consideration basically noone has noted was, what happens when you're not shooting at shit 700m away like you thought you would be, and you brought X rifle with you?

The only platform I usually didn't take a carbine along with was a Mk12 when I had a MRDS on it. Reason being that I had it set up to basically use it as a 18" carbine with the suppressor off of it, and could also passively aim at night with nightvision, or put a clip on on the rail, depending on what was going on.

I can't say any of that for the 110, M24, 107 or M14/M21 and always had a carbine along.

I agree, it can be. But actually the point of discussion is quite simple if we stick to the basics...being that if we were to go back in time to our deployments, we’d have 2-3 5.56 uppers (one of which doesn’t really count in here) so 14.5 and 18”. Then we had a 20” 7.62. Laments and market trends have brought shorter and lighter platforms. Today we also have better chamberings available. So with market trends and certain fads in the gas gun world being pushed leading to “shorter shorter shorter” and “lighter lighter lighter”, the one thing that has not been addressed is retaining the maximum ability to still deliver hits the first time from field positions. Taking all that into consideration, the discussion simply revolves around what would a shooter want to have with him today in a small frame platform and a large frame? I plan to opine upon this later this weekend in ‘phase two’ for this thread.

As far as the 12, we had a similar outlook. Every one of my gas guns had a piggybacked red dot on it, from the acogs and Leupold 1.5-5x on the 14.5’s, to the half dozen different mk12 optics, and the 7.62 guns. I was never comfortable not having one on there at all times, regardless of what I was carrying. I am speaking in terms of carrying all these platforms as primaries.