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Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

You should've just checked the tag on his t-shirt... Shake your head, and just walk away, and brush it off!
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

"Good Rebellion"?
Che was nothing more than a communist murderous butcher, and incompetent leader, and one piss-poor land navigator, who spent months in the Bolivian jungle lost and starving. He was no military genius. A former physician, he even betrayed the goodness inherent in that calling. He didn't qualify as a pubic hair on a rat's gonads.
I once took a Che t-shirt off some scrawny-bearded shit head, and wiped my ass with it before giving it back. I will do it again given half a chance.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hankpac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Good Rebellion"?
Che was nothing more than a communist murderous butcher, and incompetent leader, and one piss-poor land navigator, who spent months in the Bolivian jungle lost and starving. He was no military genius. A former physician, he even betrayed the goodness inherent in that calling. He didn't qualify as a pubic hair on a rat's gonads.
I once took a Che t-shirt off some scrawny-bearded shit head, and wiped my ass with it before giving it back. I will do it again given half a chance. </div></div>


hankpac you completely missed the point of my post ! He started out as so many do with good intentions against an oppresive system-the fact he turned into whatever he did over time doesnt negate his original intention for equaltiy for all men -this is what I think the symbol of Ch'e now means on a tee shirt -good rebellion .
By the way hankpac you sound a bit like Ch'e at the end persecuting others yourself ripping their shirts of and wiping your arse -
what next mass murder of
hippies -ch'e Guevarra Hankpac mmmmmm its got a certain ring to it
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hankpac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Good Rebellion"?
Che was nothing more than a communist murderous butcher, and incompetent leader, and one piss-poor land navigator, who spent months in the Bolivian jungle lost and starving. He was no military genius. A former physician, he even betrayed the goodness inherent in that calling. He didn't qualify as a pubic hair on a rat's gonads.
I once took a Che t-shirt off some scrawny-bearded shit head, and wiped my ass with it before giving it back. I will do it again given half a chance. </div></div>

You also wiped your dumb ass with the First Amendment.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

Rights aside, my Dad taught me it's a big country in a big world, and that there's a lot of room in both for differing viewpoints.

I'm stll old enough a Neaderthal to believe that if somebody insists on being stupid, they deserve to be laughed out of whatever place they're in. Laughter can be oneheckuva persuader...
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

The right to an opinion does not make it right. You can still be wrong and you can still be called out.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

Hanc-
no doubt you keep your 4th POC particularly crusty just waiting the next chance!
wink.gif


Odd how you concentrate on the last few month's of the Che journey and cant seem to recall the thousands of miles traveled, of villagers he treated, and successes he had prior to going to Bolivia.

South American dictators owe Che a great deal for CIA help in suppressing the people and money to fight commies flowed in after Che scared US landowners. Unlike Mexico, South America has been bribed enough to allow huge tracts of foriegn land ownership.

Not loving on ol' Che, but surely admiring the way some can overlook one group's dismal track record that spawns such men as Che, and then ignore our own Constitution declared so sacred on other occasions to supposedly attack someone for what they wear?

Calling out is one thing, attempting an attack is another.

Its freedom of speech, not freedom to beat.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

notquiteright good post ! People choose to forget the guys good work and the " reasons' he took the path he did .
To want to rip someones shirt off and wipe your butt with it is really the actions off a weak minded person with a dangerous tunnel vision view
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

Just want to quickly point something out regarding the Che thing. I personally have my own feelings of Che that will do no good for this conversation but I'm sure anybody who has read any of my posts can guess.

Some of you here that are pro Che note that Che had good intentions from the beginning and that only his positive accomplishments should be illuminated. I'm painting with a broad brush here so I know it's not fair, but, have you seen the people that wear those shirts? I only speak from my experience but the ones who sport those shirts in my city are the anarchist, black-block types. I've never seen an intelligent person wearing a Che shirt...again, this is just in my experience. Yes, I do talk to people I see wearing those shirts.

For perspective, let's look at Hitler. I am not comparing the two, however, I want to apply the same logic to Hitler that has been applied to Che, in regards to "looking at the positive."

Hitler unified Germany.
Hitler brought stability to Germany's economy.
Hitler asked German engineers to design an affordable/reliable car, now the VW.
Hitler encouraged rocket research and technology.
Hitler's war machine was instrumental in the development of certain medicines and medical procedure.
Hitler created the first highways, now the Autobahn.

These are just some of the brilliant things that Hitler did before he became a raving lunatic.

My point is, if you observed somebody walking down the street wearing a big red t-shirt with a swastika in the middle, do you think his display represents the good of the Nazi regime?

I'm not so sure.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

Wow Bowman Hitler did all that what a guy -Ch'e just wanted to work with the poor and heal the sick -- I dont think your going to get this !
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow Bowman Hitler did all that what a guy -Ch'e just wanted to work with the poor and heal the sick -- I dont think your going to get this ! </div></div>
He seemed real interested in working with the poor and healing the sick when he wrote his wife, "Here in the Cuban jungle, alive and bloodthirsty." 1957, as published in her book.He even had a great chance to help the poor when he oversaw the National Bank and the Agrarian reforms, or maybe his stint as the minister of industry. He "managed" a rich and expanding economy right into the ground, and helped the poor and sick from a plain but healthy diet into nationwide food rationing. Staying purely in the historical realm and using his own words young Ernesto sounded less than interested in the welfare of the People. His actions which I've heard speak louder make him no friend to the people he was so concerned about as thier lot got lower and he lived in a palatial estate.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow Bowman Hitler did all that what a guy -Ch'e just wanted to work with the poor and heal the sick -- I dont think your going to get this ! </div></div>

I'm not sure what you are implying. I think you missed the point of my post.

I'll try to simplify it.

Like I said above, it was not a comparison of men. It was a question of motive to wear a shirt that highlighted certain intrinsic ideology regarding the philosophies and accomplishments of each man.

Ie: Somebody can wear a shirt for Che's "positive" accomplishments or Hitler's "positive" accomplishments. In my experience, this is not the case.

I do acknowledge that my experience of Che toting symbolism is heavily weighted in the negative as the people in my area wear the shirt because:

1)They believe it to be a symbol of anti-government.
2)They believe it to be a symbol of anti-police.
3)They believe it to be a symbol of anti-USA.
4)They believe it to be a symbol of anti-capitalism.
5)They believe it to be a symbol of anarchy.
6)They believe it to be a symbol of physically fighting those that oppose their views.
7)The most common one that I've run into, HAVE NO IDEA, besides being a "punk culture" fad.

Every time I have questioned somebody in a Che t-shirt, not a single one has been able to tell me the positive accomplishments. Coincidentally, this is common garb seen on black-bloc demonstrators...which I could write 100 pages on.

This has led me to the conclusion that I listed above....that people wearing Che t-shirts and people wearing Swastikas do not do so for the positive....again, in my experience.

In fairness, I have only encountered 1 person wearing a Swastika in the course of my employment. I did stop to talk to him in a consensual manner. After long conversation, I determined that he was wearing the Swastika for negative reasons as well. I'm VERY surprised that he made it through the neighborhood.

Anyways, I hope this clears it up.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hankpac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Good Rebellion"?
Che was nothing more than a communist murderous butcher, and incompetent leader, and one piss-poor land navigator, who spent months in the Bolivian jungle lost and starving. He was no military genius. A former physician, he even betrayed the goodness inherent in that calling. He didn't qualify as a pubic hair on a rat's gonads.
I once took a Che t-shirt off some scrawny-bearded shit head, and wiped my ass with it before giving it back. I will do it again given half a chance. </div></div>

You also wiped your dumb ass with the First Amendment. </div></div>

Yes he did. That's his choice, but not a good one IMO. If you want to speak out against it, make a T shirt that reflects the opposite.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"looking at the positive."</div></div>

Good post. Objective, non-confrontational, and well thought out.

-Chris
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hankpac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Good Rebellion"?
Che was nothing more than a communist murderous butcher, and incompetent leader, and one piss-poor land navigator, who spent months in the Bolivian jungle lost and starving. He was no military genius. A former physician, he even betrayed the goodness inherent in that calling. He didn't qualify as a pubic hair on a rat's gonads.
I once took a Che t-shirt off some scrawny-bearded shit head, and wiped my ass with it before giving it back. I will do it again given half a chance. </div></div>

You also wiped your dumb ass with the First Amendment. </div></div>

The first amendment forbids Government from silencing dissent, speech or religion. It does NOT in fact stop private individuals from doing so.

I'm not defending anyone here. Ridicule is rude and possibly misplaced, but it's not against the first amendment.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Inogame</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hankpac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Good Rebellion"?
Che was nothing more than a communist murderous butcher, and incompetent leader, and one piss-poor land navigator, who spent months in the Bolivian jungle lost and starving. He was no military genius. A former physician, he even betrayed the goodness inherent in that calling. He didn't qualify as a pubic hair on a rat's gonads.
I once took a Che t-shirt off some scrawny-bearded shit head, and wiped my ass with it before giving it back. I will do it again given half a chance. </div></div>

You also wiped your dumb ass with the First Amendment. </div></div>

The first amendment forbids Government from silencing dissent, speech or religion. It does NOT in fact stop private individuals from doing so.

I'm not defending anyone here. Ridicule is rude and possibly misplaced, but it's not against the first amendment.
</div></div>

Fair point. But if the hatred of Communism is rooted in communism's suppression of individual liberties then assaulting someone because you don't like their individual choice of T-shirt or ideology is more Communist than it is American/Democratic.

In any case, I doubt the Founding Father's would have been ok with the citizenry terrorized by despotic, fashion Nazi individuals so long as those individuals didn't hold Federal posts...
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
america-we-will-kill-you-in-your-sl.jpg
</div></div>
I love that painting. I've seen it in New York, and there is a full size (huge!)copy on the front steps of the Union League of Philadelphia, where I worked briefly as a bartender while in College (got selected as the bartender for Dick Cheney when he came to attend a event there as SecDef. I guess the Marine pin on my lapel had something to do with it, and the fact that I mentioned to a SS gent who agent who came over that I knew what he was carrying was a FAG bag. I guess that sealed the assignment).
The painting is really inspiring.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

You gotta give credit to the Commie Left in America for making people to stupid to remember how cruel Communism is. My Mother and her family were uprooted from their home in poland the winter of 1940 (Feb) and put in Boxcars and sent to Siberia. Russian families were put in their homes, and the border was moved. Ethnic Cleansing of 1.5 million people. My grandfather was tortured and murdered, for practice, by the KGB guards, and my mother and grandmother kept him in a snowdrift beside the hut until spring, when they were able to hack a grave down to the permafrost. Shortly thereafter a road was graded and graveled alonside the swamp near where he was buried, and his grave and others were just ground under.
Stalin killed more with murder and starvation in a few years before WWII than died during WWII, but that was "necessary".
I know and remember what Communism is. the youth and 30 somethings, especially the "educated" ones, don't. They think that this time, they will get it right, because they are more enlightened. Dumbing down our youth by the Commie Teachers unions and the Commie Professors and administrators of Colleges got us into this mess. These people forgive the murders of a hundred million by communists, but condemn America because some Jihadi got a bomb up his ass while he was in his bedroom with his "innocent" wives.
20,000 Fench civilians got killed during Normandy, but they didn't complain, because they understood.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

I shot a CZ-75 Cold war edition a guy had at the range. It has the hammer, sickle, and red star. Should I have refused to shoot it? LOL

I love my country USA!

Also he might have been a AK-47 lover. One of those tuff guys LOL.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Hitler unified Germany. <span style="color: #990000"> Under a banner of fascism, racism, and subtle and rapidly growing oppression. </span>

Hitler brought stability to Germany's economy. <span style="color: #990000">All the money went to the war machine. Germany was BROKE after the war since all the money went to war. </span>

Hitler asked German engineers to design an affordable/reliable car, now the VW. <span style="color: #990000"> The car was to be a military car with a high fuel milage to save the Nazi war machine money and fuel. </span>

Hitler encouraged rocket research and technology. <span style="color: #990000"> Much to the delight of Winston Churchhill and all of those on the other side of the channel. </span>

Hitler's war machine was instrumental in the development of certain medicines and medical procedure. <span style="color: #990000">Guinea pigs and lab rats were actually human beings in concentration camps. </span>

Hitler created the first highways, now the Autobahn. <span style="color: #990000"> There were two reasons for this. To get the Nazis to the fight sooner to kill our guys and invade more countries, and take the unwanted German citizens to the death camps. Trains were becoming too costly so trucks were being used more often. </span>

These are just some of the brilliant things that Hitler did before he became a raving lunatic. <span style="color: #990000"> He was never brilliant, and he was a lunatic before he dragged Germany through the mud as their so called "leader" </span>

My point is, if you observed somebody walking down the street wearing a big red t-shirt with a swastika in the middle, do you think his display represents the good of the Nazi regime? <span style="color: #990000"> There is a difference in swastikas. The original one was property of the Boy Scouts of America and it originally meant good. Adolf took it and flipped it to it's now recognizable meaning of evil, but since most people wouldn't know the difference between the two, and if you were to wear it you probably have enough common sense to realize that it's a very, very, VERY bad idea. So its not that much of an issue unless someone really wanted their ass beaten or shot, but that's a price that isn't usually brought up when people talk about their's and other American's 1st Amendment rights. </span>
</div></div>

It's obvious that you are trying to make a statement about a mass murderer "Doing great things for Germany, and the world!", but that will never and should never exsist when even discussing National Socialism, or the Holocaust. Saying anything like that only makes people think of Germany, during Hitler's bullshit, as some wonderous gumdrop filled utopia and diguises the truer, darker intentions behind everything.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #CC0000">You gotta give credit to the Commie Left in America for making people to stupid to remember how cruel Communism is</span>. My Mother and her family were uprooted from their home in poland the winter of 1940 (Feb) and put in Boxcars and sent to Siberia. Russian families were put in their homes, and the border was moved. Ethnic Cleansing of 1.5 million people. My grandfather was tortured and murdered, for practice, by the KGB guards, and my mother and grandmother kept him in a snowdrift beside the hut until spring, when they were able to hack a grave down to the permafrost. Shortly thereafter a road was graded and graveled alonside the swamp near where he was buried, and his grave and others were just ground under.
Stalin killed more with murder and starvation in a few years before WWII than died during WWII, but that was "necessary".
I know and remember what Communism is. the youth and 30 somethings, especially the "educated" ones, don't. They think that this time, they will get it right, because they are more enlightened. Dumbing down our youth by the Commie Teachers unions and the Commie Professors and administrators of Colleges got us into this mess. These people forgive the murders of a hundred million by communists, but condemn America because some Jihadi got a bomb up his ass while he was in his bedroom with his "innocent" wives.
20,000 Fench civilians got killed during Normandy, but they didn't complain, because they understood.
</div></div>FIRSTLY IN NO WAY IS THIS MEANT AS A POLITICAL POST

I dont imagine you'll find in Marx or Lenin's writings any recommendation for mass murder- its kinda like the way people find away to pervert biblical scripture for their own evil use.The 1973 Chilean coup d'état was a watershed event of the Cold War and the history of Chile. On Tuesday 11 September 1973, the democratically elected President Salvador Allende was overthrown in a coup d’état organised by the Chilean military and endorsed by the United States. A military junta took control of the government, composed of the heads of the Air Force, Navy, Carabineros (police force) and the Army led by General Augusto Pinochet.[1] Pinochet later assumed power and ended Allende's democratically elected Popular Unity government and then proceeded to torture and kill any oppersition.Point being you don't have to be a commie to do bad shit .
Bowman my point really is the symbols represent the passionate start to the righteous crusades people like Ch'e embarked on and not the evil done as they lost their humanity-the symbols now mean more than the man himself
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It's obvious that you are trying to make a statement about a mass murderer "Doing great things for Germany, and the world!", but that will never and should never exsist when even discussing National Socialism, or the Holocaust. Saying anything like that only makes people think of Germany, during Hitler's bullshit, as some wonderous gumdrop filled utopia and diguises the truer, darker intentions behind everything.


</div></div>

Look...you missed the point. I was never an advocate for Hitler no matter what his accomplishments were, the motives behind them or the manner in which they were completed. I was merely illustrating what someone may count as a "positive", hence the quotation marks.

The point is that people don't wear those symbols for the claimed "positivity", in my experience. Don't try to read into something that's not there.

I could go through and easily correct your corrections but then I'd just be playing your game and you would have successfully derailed my intention. Try to see my original point, and if you see a problem, I'll address that.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Inogame</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hankpac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Good Rebellion"?
Che was nothing more than a communist murderous butcher, and incompetent leader, and one piss-poor land navigator, who spent months in the Bolivian jungle lost and starving. He was no military genius. A former physician, he even betrayed the goodness inherent in that calling. He didn't qualify as a pubic hair on a rat's gonads.
I once took a Che t-shirt off some scrawny-bearded shit head, and wiped my ass with it before giving it back. I will do it again given half a chance. </div></div>

You also wiped your dumb ass with the First Amendment. </div></div>

The first amendment forbids Government from silencing dissent, speech or religion. It does NOT in fact stop private individuals from doing so.

I'm not defending anyone here. Ridicule is rude and possibly misplaced, but it's not against the first amendment.
</div></div>

Fair point. But if the hatred of Communism is rooted in communism's suppression of individual liberties then assaulting someone because you don't like their individual choice of T-shirt or ideology is more Communist than it is American/Democratic.

In any case, I doubt the Founding Father's would have been ok with the citizenry terrorized by despotic, fashion Nazi individuals so long as those individuals didn't hold Federal posts... </div></div>


The thing is they knew better. This is the brilliance of our fathers. They understood that over time individuals that chose to persecute others would eventually fail from free market forces.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look...you missed the point. I was never an advocate for Hitler no matter what his accomplishments were, the motives behind them or the manner in which they were completed. I was merely illustrating what someone may count as a "positive", hence the quotation marks.

The point is that people don't wear those symbols for the claimed "positivity", in my experience. Don't try to read into something that's not there.

I could go through and easily correct your corrections but then I'd just be playing your game and you would have successfully derailed my intention. Try to see my original point, and if you see a problem, I'll address that. </div></div>

I think YOU missed MY point.

You could have picked alot of people to try and back up your point, instead you picked Hitler. There is no "positive", and there shouldn't be a "positive" made up to prove your point, when there is not one at all concerning the Holocaust

Go ahead and make your corrections, all of my info came from people who only got free tattoos on their arms from Hitler and the SS.

Feel free to call all of my info biased as well.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I think YOU missed MY point.

You could have picked alot of people to try and back up your point, instead you picked Hitler. There is no "positive", and there shouldn't be a "positive" made up to prove your point, when there is not one at all concerning the Holocaust

Go ahead and make your corrections, all of my info came from people who only got free tattoos on their arms from Hitler and the SS.

Feel free to call all of my info biased as well.
</div></div>

I got your point but your point was off topic. Apparently, Hitler is your hot button. It appears that you are so emotional, for whatever reason, regarding Hitler that you refuse to admit that he did positive things for Germany (I'm speaking pre-Holocaust).

If not, why was he Time Magazine's man of the year and why was he on Time Magazine's (Greatest Man) Man of the Millennium list in the year 2000?

Don't try to vilify me by implying that I was writing "positives" about the Holocaust. You should re-read my previous posts......slowly.

What history book told you that Hitler was a monster from the get go? Sounds like emotional concluding to me.

Anyways, you refuse to see my original point and I'm not here to give you a history lesson. An explanation would only fall on deaf ears because you already have a preconceived image of history and also appear emotionally effected....maybe it's all the people you know with "free tattoos".

I encourage you to attempt to learn (the truth) about all historical figures weather you like them or not. Knowing your enemies successes and failures doesn't make you a trader or a sympathizer.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I got your point but your point was off topic. Apparently, Hitler is your hot button. It appears that you are so emotional, for whatever reason, regarding Hitler that you refuse to admit that he did positive things for Germany (I'm speaking pre-Holocaust).

<span style="color: #990000"> No it's actually on topic because you and me are both expressing our 1st amendment rights which is relevant to the topic at hand. As for "positive" things about him, they are either tiered with his warmongering, or his mercilious killing, and since the whole basis for the Nazi party in Germany was blaming the decline of their economy on another race then it's more like watching a growing hurricane then it is a silver lining to everything.</span>

If not, why was he Time Magazine's man of the year and why was he on Time Magazine's (Greatest Man) Man of the Millennium list in the year 2000?

<span style="color: #990000"> It's been said even by Time Magazine themselves that the Man of the Year/Millenium awards are given out to the person who has the, <span style="text-decoration: underline">greatest impact</span>, on the world whether, good or BAD. The whole thing is meant to be non-objective so I can't see why you are trying to make a point of it.</span>

Don't try to vilify me by implying that I was writing "positives" about the Holocaust. You should re-read my previous posts......slowly.

<span style="color: #990000"> I'm not trying to make you look evil. I'm posting a counter point that all the positives that you have listed, have in fact more ties to the tyranny and oppression of Germany and her people then any positive one thing. You were trying to make a point earlier on in your posts by saying that Hitler did positive things to help out mankind. My problem with that is that everything is you have listed has been repeated over and over again, by different people, without realizing the larger picture of what those things were created for. There is a reason that such things as the V1/V2 rockets were created, and judging by the V meaning Vengence, they weren't for a space program to the moon. </span>

What history book told you that Hitler was a monster from the get go? Sounds like emotional concluding to me.

<span style="color: #990000"> It's not emotional when it's proven that the Nazi Party blamed Germany's depression on other races. And if Mein Kampf wasn't a red flag then what was? </span>

Anyways, you refuse to see my original point and I'm not here to give you a history lesson. An explanation would only fall on deaf ears because you already have a preconceived image of history and also appear emotionally effected....maybe it's all the people you know with "free tattoos".

<span style="color: #990000"> My image of history concerning Hitler, Nazi Germany, and the Holocaust is based off of all the concentration camps and Holocaust survivors that I have interviewed when I was overseas. I did know a fairly considerable amount before I went, but that turned out to not even be the tip of the iceberg in comparison to those who had lived through it.</span>

I encourage you to attempt to learn (the truth) about all historical figures weather you like them or not. Knowing your enemies successes and failures doesn't make you a trader or a sympathizer.

<span style="color: #990000"> I hope you make a journey to Europe if you haven't been. It's a very different place, but special nonetheless. I encourage you to experience it. </span>


</div></div>

Ciao.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bowman said:
I got your point but your point was off topic. Apparently, Hitler is your hot button. It appears that you are so emotional, for whatever reason, regarding Hitler that you refuse to admit that he did positive things for Germany (I'm speaking pre-Holocaust).

<span style="color: #990000"> No it's actually on topic because you and me are both expressing our 1st amendment rights which is relevant to the topic at hand. As for "positive" things about him, they are either tiered with his warmongering, or his mercilious killing, and since the whole basis for the Nazi party in Germany was blaming the decline of their economy on another race then it's more like watching a growing hurricane then it is a silver lining to everything.</span>

<span style="color: #3333FF">You are missing the point still. My original point was that I don't think people sport such symbolism with "positive" intentions. You have tunnel vision on my previous posts, believing that I was somehow advocating Hitler's atrocities in the name of "positivity" and contribution to mankind. You have successfully transitioned my point into an ethics debate. Since we are here, do you believe that every fabric of Hitler, from womb to grave was some deep scheme to further the control and pain of mankind without any positives?</span>

If not, why was he Time Magazine's man of the year and why was he on Time Magazine's (Greatest Man) Man of the Millennium list in the year 2000?

<span style="color: #990000"> It's been said even by Time Magazine themselves that the Man of the Year/Millenium awards are given out to the person who has the, <span style="text-decoration: underline">greatest impact</span>, on the world whether, good or BAD. The whole thing is meant to be non-objective so I can't see why you are trying to make a point of it.</span>

<span style="color: #3333FF">This is true, however, my point is that somebody, (not me) may add this to Hitler's list of accolades and argue that Hitler's resurrection of Germany was misguided and had potential to be great without atrocity.
</span>
Don't try to vilify me by implying that I was writing "positives" about the Holocaust. You should re-read my previous posts......slowly.

<span style="color: #990000"> I'm not trying to make you look evil. I'm posting a counter point that all the positives that you have listed, have in fact more ties to the tyranny and oppression of Germany and her people then any positive one thing. You were trying to make a point earlier on in your posts by saying that Hitler did positive things to help out mankind. My problem with that is that everything is you have listed has been repeated over and over again, by different people, without realizing the larger picture of what those things were created for. There is a reason that such things as the V1/V2 rockets were created, and judging by the V meaning Vengence, they weren't for a space program to the moon. </span>

<span style="color: #3333FF">Again, I am pointing out the "positives" that somebody (again, not me), may cite as a byproduct of Hitler's power. I purposely omitted the manner in which these "positives" were created or the motive behind them because it's not an argument that I am making for myself. I was merely stating what somebody may include as a "positive" regardless of reasoning. Please, see my original point for further explanation.</span>

What history book told you that Hitler was a monster from the get go? Sounds like emotional concluding to me.

<span style="color: #990000"> It's not emotional when it's proven that the Nazi Party blamed Germany's depression on other races. And if Mein Kampf wasn't a red flag then what was? </span>
<span style="color: #3333FF">
I never refuted the fact that the Nazi Party blamed Germany's depression on other races. Yes, Mein Kampf was a red flag. However, there were contributions to mankind that came via Hitler's regime. You continue to deny that citing the inhumanities far outweigh the "contributions." If I had a time machine then yes, I would forgo the contributions in lieu of the suffering incurred. But I don't have a time machine so that just leaves us with facts. Hitler's Nazi Germany did further the development of science and infrastructure. Like it or not, we as a society take advantage of those developments today. As a matter of fact, the medical data generated by those "experiments" are still used today (with great ethical debate).</span>

Anyways, you refuse to see my original point and I'm not here to give you a history lesson. An explanation would only fall on deaf ears because you already have a preconceived image of history and also appear emotionally effected....maybe it's all the people you know with "free tattoos".

<span style="color: #990000"> My image of history concerning Hitler, Nazi Germany, and the Holocaust is based off of all the concentration camps and Holocaust survivors that I have interviewed when I was overseas. I did know a fairly considerable amount before I went, but that turned out to not even be the tip of the iceberg in comparison to those who had lived through it.</span>

<span style="color: #3333FF">Yup, I've been to Germany too. It is sad to walk the grounds that were once arena for testing and torture. I too have spoken with death-camp prisoners. I feel for these people but this does not take away from factual history.</span>

I encourage you to attempt to learn (the truth) about all historical figures weather you like them or not. Knowing your enemies successes and failures doesn't make you a trader or a sympathizer.

<span style="color: #990000"> I hope you make a journey to Europe if you haven't been. It's a very different place, but special nonetheless. I encourage you to experience it. </span>

<span style="color: #3333FF">I can't emphasize this enough:

My original point: I don't think people wear these symbols for the "positives".

Your point: Hitler was such an idol of evil that his "contributions" have been overshadowed and undone by his deeds and motives, hence, there were no "contributions."

You need to understand that I am making a point, THAT SOMEBODY ELSE (the wearer of the swastika), would make for a "positive." I then go on to explain that, in my experience, I have never seen anybody wearing these symbols attempt to tell me the "good" as an excuse for wearing them. I then conclude that people do not wear them for the "positive" (no matter how minute the "positive" is).

Do you understand? Or do you think I'm still advocating Hitler's regime?</span>
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Click to expand...
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

Bowman -you do not not know why people wear symbols .You have created a reason in your own mind that suits your belief system only and the ones you have ask are probably few - stop second guessing people as they all have different reason .If I wore a ch'e shirt it would be to identify with the rebellion to do good for others and certainly not to identify with the metamorphose of ch'e as he ended up .Now in saying that some just wear it because its also seen as a hip fashion statement and thats ok -even if the wearer's think Ch'e was one of the three bears hanging out with with Goldielox
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You gotta give credit to the Commie Left in America for making people to stupid to remember how cruel Communism is. My Mother and her family were uprooted from their home in poland the winter of 1940 (Feb) and put in Boxcars and sent to Siberia. Russian families were put in their homes, and the border was moved. Ethnic Cleansing of 1.5 million people. My grandfather was tortured and murdered, for practice, by the KGB guards, and my mother and grandmother kept him in a snowdrift beside the hut until spring, when they were able to hack a grave down to the permafrost. Shortly thereafter a road was graded and graveled alonside the swamp near where he was buried, and his grave and others were just ground under.
Stalin killed more with murder and starvation in a few years before WWII than died during WWII, but that was "necessary".
I know and remember what Communism is. the youth and 30 somethings, especially the "educated" ones, don't. They think that this time, they will get it right, because they are more enlightened. Dumbing down our youth by the Commie Teachers unions and the Commie Professors and administrators of Colleges got us into this mess. These people forgive the murders of a hundred million by communists, but condemn America because some Jihadi got a bomb up his ass while he was in his bedroom with his "innocent" wives.
20,000 Fench civilians got killed during Normandy, but they didn't complain, because they understood.
</div></div>

Great post!! It's good to see some folks "get it". It doesn't require much "deep thinking" if one has been paying attention over the years.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bowman -you do not not know why people wear symbols .You have created a reason in your own mind that suits your belief system only and the ones you have ask are probably few - stop second guessing people as they all have different reason .If I wore a ch'e shirt it would be to identify with the rebellion to do good for others and certainly not to identify with the metamorphose of ch'e as he ended up .Now in saying that some just wear it because its also seen as a hip fashion statement and thats ok -even if the wearer's think Ch'e was one of the three bears hanging out with with Goldielox </div></div>

I don't pretend to know why people wear symbols; that's why I ask. I do, however, form conclusions from the responses I get. I even account for the location in which I ask which has a general anti-government, anti-police sentiment. I would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a person in a different location. You don't see a problem with me asking people why they wear certain symbols, do you? Would you rather me just assume?
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> three bears hanging out with with Goldielox </div></div>

Now that's funny. Too me anywhoo.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bowman -you do not not know why people wear symbols .You have created a reason in your own mind that suits your belief system only and the ones you have ask are probably few - stop second guessing people as they all have different reason .If I wore a ch'e shirt it would be to identify with the rebellion to do good for others and certainly not to identify with the metamorphose of ch'e as he ended up .Now in saying that some just wear it because its also seen as a hip fashion statement and thats ok -even if the wearer's think Ch'e was one of the three bears hanging out with with Goldielox </div></div>

I don't pretend to know why people wear symbols; that's why I ask. I do, however, form conclusions from the responses I get. <span style="color: #CC0000">I even account for the location in which I ask </span>which has a general anti-government, anti-police sentiment. I would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a person in a different location. <span style="color: #CC0000">You don't see a problem with me asking people why they wear certain symbols, do you? Would you rather me just assume?</span>

</div></div>Your getting a bit SS on it Bowman - Think I would rather say to you its none of your business so assume and certainly don't annoy these folks because of your obvious phobic issues of people not thinking like you or wanting to wear edgy things .Now in saying that Bowman I mean no personal offense to you so please don't take any with my quips
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: match-grade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So Wife and I ran the Peachtree Road Race this morning. Had a good run, and then stopped in a trader joes so I could take a piss and buy some wine. On the way out of the men's room, I came across some faggot, atheist, communist, mother fucker in a hammer and sickle shirt. This is Independence Day!!!! Wife had to restrain me from shoving my bottle of Two Buck Chuck up this pinkos ass. What a fucking piece of shit. Some stupid fuck hipster who thinks he's all cool for being edgy.

Then I fantasied about choking him with his own shirt while he cried and his lame girlfriend begged for mercy.


Goddamn I hate urbanites. </div></div>its so funny that you miss the point of Independence day -his right to be a faggot if he wants -a commie and to believe in nothing -that right of freedom comes at a cost of having to be a moderate.</div></div>

How in the name of fuck do you know what it means?
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your getting a bit SS on it Bowman - Think I would rather say to you its none of your business so assume and certainly don't annoy these folks because of your obvious phobic issues of people not thinking like you or wanting to wear edgy things .Now in saying that Bowman I mean no personal offense to you so please don't take any with my quips </div></div>

No offense taken at all. I still like to question people's motives. I guess I'm inquisitive to a fault. People don't have to answer my questions....but I've never had anybody refuse. It's probably because I ask in a conversational manner and not an accusatory one. I guess I seem like a bigger asshole in writing than I am in person. It's probably due to the fact that I'm a lot more direct in writing; in the interest of saving space and time.
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

Just for the record the swastika was originally a buddhist symbol.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Hitler unified Germany. <span style="color: #990000"> Under a banner of fascism, racism, and subtle and rapidly growing oppression. </span>

Hitler brought stability to Germany's economy. <span style="color: #990000">All the money went to the war machine. Germany was BROKE after the war since all the money went to war. </span>

Hitler asked German engineers to design an affordable/reliable car, now the VW. <span style="color: #990000"> The car was to be a military car with a high fuel milage to save the Nazi war machine money and fuel. </span>

Hitler encouraged rocket research and technology. <span style="color: #990000"> Much to the delight of Winston Churchhill and all of those on the other side of the channel. </span>

Hitler's war machine was instrumental in the development of certain medicines and medical procedure. <span style="color: #990000">Guinea pigs and lab rats were actually human beings in concentration camps. </span>

Hitler created the first highways, now the Autobahn. <span style="color: #990000"> There were two reasons for this. To get the Nazis to the fight sooner to kill our guys and invade more countries, and take the unwanted German citizens to the death camps. Trains were becoming too costly so trucks were being used more often. </span>

These are just some of the brilliant things that Hitler did before he became a raving lunatic. <span style="color: #990000"> He was never brilliant, and he was a lunatic before he dragged Germany through the mud as their so called "leader" </span>

My point is, if you observed somebody walking down the street wearing a big red t-shirt with a swastika in the middle, do you think his display represents the good of the Nazi regime? <span style="color: #990000"> There is a difference in swastikas. The original one was property of the Boy Scouts of America and it originally meant good. Adolf took it and flipped it to it's now recognizable meaning of evil, but since most people wouldn't know the difference between the two, and if you were to wear it you probably have enough common sense to realize that it's a very, very, VERY bad idea. So its not that much of an issue unless someone really wanted their ass beaten or shot, but that's a price that isn't usually brought up when people talk about their's and other American's 1st Amendment rights. </span>
</div></div>

It's obvious that you are trying to make a statement about a mass murderer "Doing great things for Germany, and the world!", but that will never and should never exsist when even discussing National Socialism, or the Holocaust. Saying anything like that only makes people think of Germany, during Hitler's bullshit, as some wonderous gumdrop filled utopia and diguises the truer, darker intentions behind everything.


</div></div>
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your getting a bit SS on it Bowman - Think I would rather say to you its none of your business so assume and certainly don't annoy these folks because of your obvious phobic issues of people not thinking like you or wanting to wear edgy things .Now in saying that Bowman I mean no personal offense to you so please don't take any with my quips </div></div>

No offense taken at all. I still like to question people's motives. I guess I'm inquisitive to a fault. People don't have to answer my questions....but I've never had anybody refuse. It's probably because I ask in a conversational manner and not an accusatory one. <span style="color: #CC0000">I guess I seem like a bigger asshole in writing than I am in person. It's probably due to the fact that I'm a lot more direct in writing;</span> in the interest of saving space and time. </div></div>

I am sure that is the same for many of us .At the end of the day I am sure in a social situation we could all sit down and have a beer and a laugh!
 
Re: Hammer and Sickle, gotta rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You gotta give credit to the Commie Left in America for making people to stupid to remember how cruel Communism is. My Mother and her family were uprooted from their home in poland the winter of 1940 (Feb) and put in Boxcars and sent to Siberia. Russian families were put in their homes, and the border was moved. Ethnic Cleansing of 1.5 million people. My grandfather was tortured and murdered, for practice, by the KGB guards, and my mother and grandmother kept him in a snowdrift beside the hut until spring, when they were able to hack a grave down to the permafrost. Shortly thereafter a road was graded and graveled alonside the swamp near where he was buried, and his grave and others were just ground under.
Stalin killed more with murder and starvation in a few years before WWII than died during WWII, but that was "necessary".
I know and remember what Communism is. the youth and 30 somethings, especially the "educated" ones, don't. They think that this time, they will get it right, because they are more enlightened. Dumbing down our youth by the Commie Teachers unions and the Commie Professors and administrators of Colleges got us into this mess. These people forgive the murders of a hundred million by communists, but condemn America because some Jihadi got a bomb up his ass while he was in his bedroom with his "innocent" wives.
20,000 Fench civilians got killed during Normandy, but they didn't complain, because they understood.
</div></div>
Thanks for saying this.
Socialism is evil it demands the labor of one for the wants of another. So yeah if you're gonna wear some stupid shit commie symbol on you t-shirt be prepared to explain it. I asked some dirty looking kid in Wal-Mart what that guy on his shirt did. He replied with a blank look "He helped people?"
 
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