• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Hand Loading for Long Range 4: Powderin' it

Took my rifle to Phoenix Custom Rifles and they checked out the bolt and the firing pin assembly. Everything checked out fine and they cleaned and re-lubed the bold. However, I just went out a few days ago to shoot long range and the first round that I put in there did not fire, go figure. A crater on the primer but no ignition. I ejected the round, inspected it, dry fired a few times, and then tried to shoot the same round, still a no go. This was a hand load with twice fired remington brass, federal 215, 89.4gr retumbo, 3.899 coal. Every other round I tried the rest of they day was perfect though....

So, what should I do? Any advice is welcome. I just want to be able to trust that it will fire every time, especially being a hunting rifle.

Anyway, besides that, this rifle is stupid accurate. Here are some pics to show proof. I still don't believe how accurate Phoenix Custom Rifles built this rifle. 300 RUM pushing 230gr Match Berger Hybrids @3,048fps!!! The steel at 1,000 is 20"x20"

3 shots at 100 yards=.322"!!!

3 shots at 1,000 yards= 1.75" at most!!!
 

Attachments

  • IMG_3972.JPG
    IMG_3972.JPG
    403.4 KB · Views: 223
  • IMG_3970.jpg
    IMG_3970.jpg
    1.3 MB · Views: 216
  • IMG_3971.jpg
    IMG_3971.jpg
    972.9 KB · Views: 225
  • IMG_3969.jpg
    IMG_3969.jpg
    1.1 MB · Views: 208
  • Like
Reactions: jd138
Thanks for the great articles tres i will definitely be re-reading them this summer when I start reloading. I can't even begin to tell you how much I have learned from these articles. Here is a picture of what i did last week with some factory 150gr powerpoints with my 270 win. The circle is the size of a quarter and the 3 shot group measured around .75 moa @100 yards..75 group.jpg
 
Anyone of you gentlemen that want to help a guy out with this ladder test... preferably before I loose it and go totaly nuts. :D
If anyone has the time and will please do PM me.

Take care :)
 
300WM Ladder Test.jpg

Completed my first ever ladder test today for my 300 Win Mag. This test was done using 1% of max increments for a total of 15 rounds, 1% equals .7gr. I think I will take the next ladder using .5gr increments using shots 11, 12, 13, & 15. If one of ya'll with more experience can see something different please let me know.
 
View attachment 34952

Completed my first ever ladder test today for my 300 Win Mag. This test was done using 1% of max increments for a total of 15 rounds, 1% equals .7gr. I think I will take the next ladder using .5gr increments using shots 11, 12, 13, & 15. If one of ya'll with more experience can see something different please let me know.

I would do an additional ladder from a longer distance in 0.3gr increments for charge weights 11-13. With 14 being higher than the 11-13 group, and 15 being with 11-13 group, I would lean towards shooter error or charge weight variance (not saying your a bad shooter or reloader, but shit happens).
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the input Hondo, sounds like good advice. I plan on doing the next ladder test from 400yds, the previous one was done at 300yds.
 
Thanks for the input Hondo, sounds like good advice. I plan on doing the next ladder test from 400yds, the previous one was done at 300yds.

No problem. I like to do my first ladder at 300 then go to 600 for my second one. Good luck!
 
Hondo1312, I'm not sure if got my replay. I'm getting loged out all of the time for some reason.. I guess it's my phone...
 
uploadfromtaptalk1397087398322.jpg
Ok, need some more advice. This is my second (refined from first) ladder test. I am thinking that 1,4, & 5 look promising, but, 2,7, & 8 are very close if you take out the 20 mph wind gusts. Once again all advice is welcome.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
 
hey just looking to get some opinions and info… I'm new to long range shooting and not doings too bad but I'm starting to reload for better rounds… I'm shooting a 50bmg at 1000yrds any recommendations on what kind/brand of powder to use? and i was told the rocky mountain bullets are the best… thoughts? still have yet to buy my press too… looking at the lee but I'm willing to spend what ever i need to to get a good one any other recommendations?
 
hey just looking to get some opinions and info… I'm new to long range shooting and not doings too bad but I'm starting to reload for better rounds… I'm shooting a 50bmg at 1000yrds any recommendations on what kind/brand of powder to use? and i was told the rocky mountain bullets are the best… thoughts? still have yet to buy my press too… looking at the lee but I'm willing to spend what ever i need to to get a good one any other recommendations?

Have you checked the Reloading Depot? There are some recipes posted that may help get you started.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading-depot/495-loads-338lm-50-cal.html
 
Back to powderin'

I have done my initial and refined powder tests and have narrowed down 2 or 3 loads to shoot for grouping. Are you guys shooting these at 300+ yards or at 100 yards? I think the longer distances would be better validation, but at 100 yards you reduce the effect of wind on your results. I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
 
Back to powderin'

I have done my initial and refined powder tests and have narrowed down 2 or 3 loads to shoot for grouping. Are you guys shooting these at 300+ yards or at 100 yards? I think the longer distances would be better validation, but at 100 yards you reduce the effect of wind on your results. I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

You are right on both counts. 100 yes will minimize the effect of the wind. 300 yards will show up more errors in velocity differences, etc. I tend to do my first set at 100 yds, and then go to 200-300 yds for further evaluation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Possumpete
At 100 yrds you wont see much for velocity change. Say 1/2". Well if you shoot a group with the same powder load it may shoot 1" give or take.
So its hard to determine if the spread your are seeing is velocity or group related at short distance.

I was recently thrown for a loop when I shot a ladder at 325 yrds and 7 shots formed a 2" group but when I group shot the groups got bigger.

Honestly I still can't figure that out.
y2uhebuj.jpg


3uzu7a8a.jpg


200 yrds ocw

ge6ubeqa.jpg
 
After you adjust seating depth and find a tight shooting group should you add or subtract some powder to get back into the middle of your node?
 
After you adjust seating depth and find a tight shooting group should you add or subtract some powder to get back into the middle of your node?

That depends on whether you need to add or remove powder to get back into the middle of your node.

If youre wondering why I just repeated it back to you then you should think about it a bit because no one can tell you what you need to do.
 
So one question I've always had was after finding a load or even two that shoot well and after trying out different seating lengths, which should further refine your group, what would you do if you're nowhere near the velocities you're after?
If this has already been asked on this thread, I must have missed it and I apologize.
 
So one question I've always had was after finding a load or even two that shoot well and after trying out different seating lengths, which should further refine your group, what would you do if you're nowhere near the velocities you're after?
If this has already been asked on this thread, I must have missed it and I apologize.

Add more powder, try a different powder, buy a longer barrel, shoot lighter bullets
 
  • Like
Reactions: RowdyAF
Hand Loading for Long Range Ch 4: Powderin’ the thing.

Here we are again. We’re all fired up about hand loading like the big dogs. We got our brass about as perfect as we can & primed, our bullets are in perfect little sorted piles and their noses are clean. We got a great overall length to start with. Now for the last big part- fueling that baby.

But before we get going here let me reiterate a SERIOUSLY IMPORTANT safety note. One of the things we are going to do as upper level hand loaders is to use the book as a guide- but we’re going to decide what the max load is for our own dang self! HA! (insert Tarzan yell)

<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">And in doing so it is imperative you understand this.</span> </span></span> <span style="font-weight: bold">In the last chapter we learned how to come up with a great starting point in overall length. We found where the bullet was just kissing the riflings, and we extended that position + .010”. So in experimenting with powders and ALL the below instructions we are going to do so WITH EVERY ROUND .010” JAMMED into the riflings. IF YOU DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING SAID HERE & WHY- DO NOT LOAD (near) BOOK MAX, MUCH LESS OVER!!! If the load starts with the bullet jammed into the rifling with all other things being even you WILL GET significant more pressure levels. So it’s okay to find ACTUAL max (possibly beyond book max) WITH THE BULLET JAMMED. Because when we later experiment with final overall length, we may end up with the bullet seated out of the riflings, or the bullet jumping from the case into the riflings. “Jump” does not give a pressure spike like being jammed. So we can go from JAMMED (A pressure spike situation) TO JUMP because our chamber pressure will DROP.
</span>
<span style="text-decoration: underline">But if a person were to experiment with max ++ loads with the bullet NOT engaging the riflings, they would ERRONEOUSLY think they found this particular rifles safe max load. And then if they decided to jam it in search for a better shooting load, with thet the associated pressure spike from being JAMMED- and that MAX or MAX PLUS load- he’ll likely lose his eyeballs, some fingers, his hearing a good portion of his face and potentially his life. Got it?
</span>
<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">START JAMMED- Work *towards* JUMP! DO NOT GO THE OTHER WAY</span></span></span> with near max, max or max plus loads!

Got it!? No? do not proceed! So onto the fun stuff.


I’m gonna walk you through perfoming a ladder test. The ladder test is in my & many precision shooters opinion –the- only way to work up a long range load. It typically saves times, componants and barrel life. How’s that? Because we are only going to shoot -1- round at a given powder charge! Each single round is a rung of the ladder. Sounds like a farce? Keep reading, you’ll get it. There’s only one hang up for the ladder test- it really need to be done at least a decent distance. If you have a place to shoot at least 300(+)yards do a ladder test. 300 minimum, 600 is great, 1000yd ultimate, but it's easy for the wind to blow your hits off paper which knocks the test in the head.

The first thing we need to do is decide on a -or preferably several powders to experiment with. This is done by talking to successful shooters familiar with your cartridge, reloading manuals, Sierra bulletsmiths (800-223-8799) etc.

So how do you do a ladder test? Glad you asked. Let's take say Reloader 15 powder for a hypothetical .308 load. My Sierra manual states 35.8 is a start load and 41.3 is max. I like round numbers. So we’re gonna call it 36g. START, 41g. MAX. Great.

Each single shot load experiment is going to be in 1% increments starting at minimum load and getting 1% hotter with each next round. So what is 1% of our max in this example? Let’s do the math.

41.0 x .01 = .41 So we are in this first coarse test jump .41 grains between each load. Again this first ladder is a coarse (but HIGHLY INFORMATIVE) test. So to save time let's bump it up to full half grain intervals, .5g.

Now make a list of the loads you would load to have a single round from start, to max plus in .5 grain jumps. Write them down.

1\ 36g
2\ 36.5g
3\ 37g
4\ 37.5g
5\ 38g
6\ 38.5g
7\ 39g
8\ 39.5g
9\ 40
10\ 40.5
11\ 41g. BOOK MAXIMUM
12\ 41.5 !MAX plus!
13\ 42g !MAX PLUS!
14\ 42.5 !Max Plus!

<span style="text-decoration: underline">*** write the load number, powder type, and grains on each case of loaded ammo with a sharpie marker. <span style="color: #FF0000">For max and max plus loads i color the neck of the case RED.Don’t skip this.</span></span>


So now you have a mere LESS THAN 14 rounds to shoot and you will obtain VOLUMES of info. <span style="font-weight: bold">MORE SAFTEY ADVICE:
For shots #10 and on proceed with caution, looking and documenting well any signs of excessive pressure. STOP shooting when you detect the least sign of pressure: cratered primer, shiny marks on case head, Extractor/ejector marks, sticky bolt lift etc.</span> WRITE DOWN the actual max load for this powder, this bullet,for this particular rifle in your loading manual and several other places.

Having max and max plus loads will let you know what the actual MAX load is for your particular rifle. My 300 win mag 1000yard rifle does not show pressure with some powders until I'm -three full grains- over book max. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">ANY loads deemed too hot to be safe to shoot should be pulled apart/unloaded right there at the range for safety</span>.</span>

So now pack up and head to the range. At the range we are going to need a large piece of paper. I keep a roll of brown paper painters paper on hand for all my range shooting. It’sa bout 36”wide and many feet (120'+ ?) come on a roll. Last time I bought some it was $9 @ my local Lowe’s / Home Depot)

We are going to shoot the start load first, and the MAX PLUS load last, all at the SAME AIMING POINT on the paper. So we are going to get a TALL vertical string. So no skimping on paper. From a good solid shooting position shoot each load at THE SAME AIMING POINT. And for once in your life in long range shooting you can ignore cross winds.

Now the creative part you going to mark each bullet hole by it's shot number- referenced by it's powder charge after it's shot because you will have overlapping holes. Shoot one mark one.

There are several ways of doing this whether it be shoot one and walk down and mark it, to really strong spotting scopes (always seems to screw up my ladder tests and I have to start over) DIY target cams, or coloring coding shots by coloring the bullet with a red, green & blue markers accordingly and shooting at white paper. The marker will transfer to the target paper. I'd still not shoot more than 3 before walking. Me?? No- I'd certainly not want it to ever be said I have a faithful & trusted shooting companion down range with a marker standing off to the side of the target board a safe distance and we "shoot one, mark one" as a expedient team.

So what's happening on paper? You will get a vertical string of hits. (don't worry if they shift left and right with the wind, that is irrelevant right now, trust me.) First thought is that it's increasing velocity that makes the hits climb up the target, and that is true to a point. What is also happening for the most part is the bullets are leaving the barrel in a different state of barrel flex, or vibration.

You need to understand this. When you fire your rifle, your barrel flexes in a sine wave pattern. What your getting in the ladder test is the bullet is exiting the muzzle shot to shot, with the barrel flexed more and more up.

BUT, ahah! We got some groups anyway! You will get a few shots that cluster, or actually make a decent group on your target, despite their each one having a(get this) differing powder charge!

ENTER THE "NODE." The node is the very top of the wave and very bottom. For ultimate accuracy, you want your bullet exiting the muzzle precisely when it has flexed all the way up, STOPPED [for a nano second] before it begins it journey flexing back down. This is why you had a decent group or two during the ladder test, despite differing powder charges.

So now your looking at the ladder test target. You got shots all over the place vertically, but some formed nice clusters, or groups.

Note each powder charge that grouped. Let's say for this test, bullet holes 2,3,4 formed a group, and 7,8,9 formed a group.

So this is awesome. In a mere 11 or so shots, we learned at what powder charges the bullets actually leaves the barrel when the muzzle is not moving(vibrating) around wildly.

So now we go home sip a beverage and study and DOCUMENT our findings.
We see 36.5, 37 & 37.5grains shoot in the node of the barrel.

We now take these and do a refined but smaller ladder test. (We do this for the other clustered shots too! Don't neglect to further ladder test any loads that formed a cluster/group.)

So now we are going to load rounds for another ladder test.

Let's jump in finer, .3grn increments now, we are refining things now. Let's go a little outside* this accuracy window (our shots that grouped), powder charge-wise though just for good measure;

1\36.3*
2\36.6
3\36.9
4\37.2
5\37.5
6\37.8*grains

So now we have a good lot of charges with overlap a little each way from the accuracy cluster of the first ladder test. We only loaded one of each charge again. Now go repeat the ladder test/target, and again in a mere 6 shots you will have volumes MORE information. [Don't forget to do this second ladder test for every accuracy cluster/group that showed up on the first test]For each ladder, it is optimal to back up -at least- another hundred yards from the last distance.

You will get another accuracy cluster, all the more dead-on the barrel's node. Let's say shots 2,3,6 again formed a group.

Now you go back and load 5 SHOT GROUPS for each of these:
5@ 36.6 grains
5@ 36.9 grns
5@ 37.2 g.

One of these will prove overall best. Now you got your powder charge! And it is the LEAST sensitive to shot to shot velocity variations due to being at the node.

Now go back with this same powder charge in every round but play with bullet seating depth.. Your at .010” jammed right now. Try a 5 shot group @ - .010 JUMP (not touching the riflings.) Keep trying groups as you move your OAL .010”. You’ll see the rifle perk up and shoot one of these lengths best. Now you got your load.

If you want to try to shave the last couple of thousandth’s off your groups average, play around again the powder charge- load a 5 shot group just slightly under –THE- load and just slightly over and see if things get even better still yet. It may or may not.
Then if you want to be super anal, and can get out to at least 600yds go run primer brand testing too! You might get even more uniform muzzle velocity

This is how 1000 yard bench rest loads are worked up & records broken. You may not choose to refine it to the n'th degree, but running at least 2, ever finer ladder tests as described here will get any rifle shooting nealry as good as it practically can.

I just ran ladder test 1(course) and test 2 (refined) with my .300 win mag (FACTORY savage tac) I'm to where I need to move to 5 shot groups. But, for my 3rd and most fine/narrow ladder test I moved back to 500 yards. I fired two identical rounds to warm my bore and verify my point of impact on the 500 yard target, using a load from the middle ladder test that was already showing a good powder charge. My buddy who was not down range, not helping me from no where near the target board called back on the radio and said "Damn, don't change a thing, sighter shots 1 & 2 are within 3/4" of each other!!

Okay fine! I’ll throw in a picture…

This picture below was the last ladder test I did with my .300 Win Mag Savage Tactical rifle. Each shot was .5 grains hotter (H4831SC powder) than the last.


Nodetesttarget.jpg



It's really easy to see exactly where the node is on this target. Shot 1-9 are in the photo but #'s 10 & 11 strung on up the target out the top, not in photo.

Remember that no two of these bullets holes where fired with the same powder charge, but shooting in the node is where it's at- the "four shot group" shown here, #'s 6,7,8 & 9 formed a 3.130" group or .63 moa group @ 525 yards from a factory Savage, with all differing loads. (And obviously in the picture- this was all from wind. I was disregarding and shooting right through wind gusts. There's only .949" of vertical dispersion here or .19 MOA @ 525 laser'd yards.)

Going back and trying my 5 (identically loaded) shot groups should theoretically at least shrink this by half, most likely quitea bit more and identify my rifle's ultimate load with a 210 VLD bullet, and H4831SC powder. From what I have seen thus far with this rifle I'm looking for at least SUB(!) .35 moa 5 shot groups in the end. I'd sure take .2_ moa numbers.
[Note since originally writing this piece- using the processes in this series I have written, I have ended up with two loads (H4831SC & H1000) that are .25moa shooters @ 400 yds.]

Gentlemen and ladies, this is THE way to work up a load, and it won't even take a full box of bullets to do so.

In the next chapter we’ll talk about inspecting loaded ammo. Hope you enjoyed this instructional.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This instructional took considerable time & effort. It is presented here for free. Enjoy! However if any one feels motivated to express appreciation a donation can be sent to the paypal account [email protected]. No big deal. Thanks! TresMon
 
Very well explained. A lot of detail with data back up. Thank you. You taught me plenty to help me become a better reloader and shooter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TresMon
I know this thread has been out for a while, but I am just now reading for the first time about ladder tests. And in this vein, as I undertake my first test I have 2 questions (which I hope have not been previously answered, if so I apologize):

1 - I am testing a 300 WM with H1000 and 200 gr ELD-X bullets, the load manual would put starting at 69.1 and max at 76.2 - with a 1% increment there would only be 10 rounds with .75 grain increases. Or, if I went with .5 grain then I would have 15 rounds. Would it be better to do 1% so vertical dispersion is exacerbated? Or, to use .5 so more data would be gathered?

2 - Is a 300 yard range enough for a ladder test for the 300 WM? That is what I have readily available in Indiana. I know you say farther is better, but if that is what is available will it work? Or should I just do group tests instead?

Thank you.
 
Hand Loading for Long Range Ch 4: Powderin’ the thing.

Here we are again. We’re all fired up about hand loading like the big dogs. We got our brass about as perfect as we can & primed, our bullets are in perfect little sorted piles and their noses are clean. We got a great overall length to start with. Now for the last big part- fueling that baby.

But before we get going here let me reiterate a SERIOUSLY IMPORTANT safety note. One of the things we are going to do as upper level hand loaders is to use the book as a guide- but we’re going to decide what the max load is for our own dang self! HA! (insert Tarzan yell)

<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">And in doing so it is imperative you understand this.</span> </span></span> <span style="font-weight: bold">In the last chapter we learned how to come up with a great starting point in overall length. We found where the bullet was just kissing the riflings, and we extended that position + .010”. So in experimenting with powders and ALL the below instructions we are going to do so WITH EVERY ROUND .010” JAMMED into the riflings. IF YOU DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING SAID HERE & WHY- DO NOT LOAD (near) BOOK MAX, MUCH LESS OVER!!! If the load starts with the bullet jammed into the rifling with all other things being even you WILL GET significant more pressure levels. So it’s okay to find ACTUAL max (possibly beyond book max) WITH THE BULLET JAMMED. Because when we later experiment with final overall length, we may end up with the bullet seated out of the riflings, or the bullet jumping from the case into the riflings. “Jump” does not give a pressure spike like being jammed. So we can go from JAMMED (A pressure spike situation) TO JUMP because our chamber pressure will DROP.
</span>
<span style="text-decoration: underline">But if a person were to experiment with max ++ loads with the bullet NOT engaging the riflings, they would ERRONEOUSLY think they found this particular rifles safe max load. And then if they decided to jam it in search for a better shooting load, with thet the associated pressure spike from being JAMMED- and that MAX or MAX PLUS load- he’ll likely lose his eyeballs, some fingers, his hearing a good portion of his face and potentially his life. Got it?
</span>
<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">START JAMMED- Work *towards* JUMP! DO NOT GO THE OTHER WAY</span></span></span> with near max, max or max plus loads!

Got it!? No? do not proceed! So onto the fun stuff.


I’m gonna walk you through perfoming a ladder test. The ladder test is in my & many precision shooters opinion –the- only way to work up a long range load. It typically saves times, componants and barrel life. How’s that? Because we are only going to shoot -1- round at a given powder charge! Each single round is a rung of the ladder. Sounds like a farce? Keep reading, you’ll get it. There’s only one hang up for the ladder test- it really need to be done at least a decent distance. If you have a place to shoot at least 300(+)yards do a ladder test. 300 minimum, 600 is great, 1000yd ultimate, but it's easy for the wind to blow your hits off paper which knocks the test in the head.

The first thing we need to do is decide on a -or preferably several powders to experiment with. This is done by talking to successful shooters familiar with your cartridge, reloading manuals, Sierra bulletsmiths (800-223-8799) etc.

So how do you do a ladder test? Glad you asked. Let's take say Reloader 15 powder for a hypothetical .308 load. My Sierra manual states 35.8 is a start load and 41.3 is max. I like round numbers. So we’re gonna call it 36g. START, 41g. MAX. Great.

Each single shot load experiment is going to be in 1% increments starting at minimum load and getting 1% hotter with each next round. So what is 1% of our max in this example? Let’s do the math.

41.0 x .01 = .41 So we are in this first coarse test jump .41 grains between each load. Again this first ladder is a coarse (but HIGHLY INFORMATIVE) test. So to save time let's bump it up to full half grain intervals, .5g.

Now make a list of the loads you would load to have a single round from start, to max plus in .5 grain jumps. Write them down.

1\ 36g
2\ 36.5g
3\ 37g
4\ 37.5g
5\ 38g
6\ 38.5g
7\ 39g
8\ 39.5g
9\ 40
10\ 40.5
11\ 41g. BOOK MAXIMUM
12\ 41.5 !MAX plus!
13\ 42g !MAX PLUS!
14\ 42.5 !Max Plus!

<span style="text-decoration: underline">*** write the load number, powder type, and grains on each case of loaded ammo with a sharpie marker. <span style="color: #FF0000">For max and max plus loads i color the neck of the case RED.Don’t skip this.</span></span>


So now you have a mere LESS THAN 14 rounds to shoot and you will obtain VOLUMES of info. <span style="font-weight: bold">MORE SAFTEY ADVICE:
For shots #10 and on proceed with caution, looking and documenting well any signs of excessive pressure. STOP shooting when you detect the least sign of pressure: cratered primer, shiny marks on case head, Extractor/ejector marks, sticky bolt lift etc.</span> WRITE DOWN the actual max load for this powder, this bullet,for this particular rifle in your loading manual and several other places.

Having max and max plus loads will let you know what the actual MAX load is for your particular rifle. My 300 win mag 1000yard rifle does not show pressure with some powders until I'm -three full grains- over book max. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">ANY loads deemed too hot to be safe to shoot should be pulled apart/unloaded right there at the range for safety</span>.</span>

So now pack up and head to the range. At the range we are going to need a large piece of paper. I keep a roll of brown paper painters paper on hand for all my range shooting. It’sa bout 36”wide and many feet (120'+ ?) come on a roll. Last time I bought some it was $9 @ my local Lowe’s / Home Depot)

We are going to shoot the start load first, and the MAX PLUS load last, all at the SAME AIMING POINT on the paper. So we are going to get a TALL vertical string. So no skimping on paper. From a good solid shooting position shoot each load at THE SAME AIMING POINT. And for once in your life in long range shooting you can ignore cross winds.

Now the creative part you going to mark each bullet hole by it's shot number- referenced by it's powder charge after it's shot because you will have overlapping holes. Shoot one mark one.

There are several ways of doing this whether it be shoot one and walk down and mark it, to really strong spotting scopes (always seems to screw up my ladder tests and I have to start over) DIY target cams, or coloring coding shots by coloring the bullet with a red, green & blue markers accordingly and shooting at white paper. The marker will transfer to the target paper. I'd still not shoot more than 3 before walking. Me?? No- I'd certainly not want it to ever be said I have a faithful & trusted shooting companion down range with a marker standing off to the side of the target board a safe distance and we "shoot one, mark one" as a expedient team.

So what's happening on paper? You will get a vertical string of hits. (don't worry if they shift left and right with the wind, that is irrelevant right now, trust me.) First thought is that it's increasing velocity that makes the hits climb up the target, and that is true to a point. What is also happening for the most part is the bullets are leaving the barrel in a different state of barrel flex, or vibration.

You need to understand this. When you fire your rifle, your barrel flexes in a sine wave pattern. What your getting in the ladder test is the bullet is exiting the muzzle shot to shot, with the barrel flexed more and more up.

BUT, ahah! We got some groups anyway! You will get a few shots that cluster, or actually make a decent group on your target, despite their each one having a(get this) differing powder charge!

ENTER THE "NODE." The node is the very top of the wave and very bottom. For ultimate accuracy, you want your bullet exiting the muzzle precisely when it has flexed all the way up, STOPPED [for a nano second] before it begins it journey flexing back down. This is why you had a decent group or two during the ladder test, despite differing powder charges.

So now your looking at the ladder test target. You got shots all over the place vertically, but some formed nice clusters, or groups.

Note each powder charge that grouped. Let's say for this test, bullet holes 2,3,4 formed a group, and 7,8,9 formed a group.

So this is awesome. In a mere 11 or so shots, we learned at what powder charges the bullets actually leaves the barrel when the muzzle is not moving(vibrating) around wildly.

So now we go home sip a beverage and study and DOCUMENT our findings.
We see 36.5, 37 & 37.5grains shoot in the node of the barrel.

We now take these and do a refined but smaller ladder test. (We do this for the other clustered shots too! Don't neglect to further ladder test any loads that formed a cluster/group.)

So now we are going to load rounds for another ladder test.

Let's jump in finer, .3grn increments now, we are refining things now. Let's go a little outside* this accuracy window (our shots that grouped), powder charge-wise though just for good measure;

1\36.3*
2\36.6
3\36.9
4\37.2
5\37.5
6\37.8*grains

So now we have a good lot of charges with overlap a little each way from the accuracy cluster of the first ladder test. We only loaded one of each charge again. Now go repeat the ladder test/target, and again in a mere 6 shots you will have volumes MORE information. [Don't forget to do this second ladder test for every accuracy cluster/group that showed up on the first test]For each ladder, it is optimal to back up -at least- another hundred yards from the last distance.

You will get another accuracy cluster, all the more dead-on the barrel's node. Let's say shots 2,3,6 again formed a group.

Now you go back and load 5 SHOT GROUPS for each of these:
5@ 36.6 grains
5@ 36.9 grns
5@ 37.2 g.

One of these will prove overall best. Now you got your powder charge! And it is the LEAST sensitive to shot to shot velocity variations due to being at the node.

Now go back with this same powder charge in every round but play with bullet seating depth.. Your at .010” jammed right now. Try a 5 shot group @ - .010 JUMP (not touching the riflings.) Keep trying groups as you move your OAL .010”. You’ll see the rifle perk up and shoot one of these lengths best. Now you got your load.

If you want to try to shave the last couple of thousandth’s off your groups average, play around again the powder charge- load a 5 shot group just slightly under –THE- load and just slightly over and see if things get even better still yet. It may or may not.
Then if you want to be super anal, and can get out to at least 600yds go run primer brand testing too! You might get even more uniform muzzle velocity

This is how 1000 yard bench rest loads are worked up & records broken. You may not choose to refine it to the n'th degree, but running at least 2, ever finer ladder tests as described here will get any rifle shooting nealry as good as it practically can.

I just ran ladder test 1(course) and test 2 (refined) with my .300 win mag (FACTORY savage tac) I'm to where I need to move to 5 shot groups. But, for my 3rd and most fine/narrow ladder test I moved back to 500 yards. I fired two identical rounds to warm my bore and verify my point of impact on the 500 yard target, using a load from the middle ladder test that was already showing a good powder charge. My buddy who was not down range, not helping me from no where near the target board called back on the radio and said "Damn, don't change a thing, sighter shots 1 & 2 are within 3/4" of each other!!

Okay fine! I’ll throw in a picture…

This picture below was the last ladder test I did with my .300 Win Mag Savage Tactical rifle. Each shot was .5 grains hotter (H4831SC powder) than the last.


Nodetesttarget.jpg



It's really easy to see exactly where the node is on this target. Shot 1-9 are in the photo but #'s 10 & 11 strung on up the target out the top, not in photo.

Remember that no two of these bullets holes where fired with the same powder charge, but shooting in the node is where it's at- the "four shot group" shown here, #'s 6,7,8 & 9 formed a 3.130" group or .63 moa group @ 525 yards from a factory Savage, with all differing loads. (And obviously in the picture- this was all from wind. I was disregarding and shooting right through wind gusts. There's only .949" of vertical dispersion here or .19 MOA @ 525 laser'd yards.)

Going back and trying my 5 (identically loaded) shot groups should theoretically at least shrink this by half, most likely quitea bit more and identify my rifle's ultimate load with a 210 VLD bullet, and H4831SC powder. From what I have seen thus far with this rifle I'm looking for at least SUB(!) .35 moa 5 shot groups in the end. I'd sure take .2_ moa numbers.
[Note since originally writing this piece- using the processes in this series I have written, I have ended up with two loads (H4831SC & H1000) that are .25moa shooters @ 400 yds.]

Gentlemen and ladies, this is THE way to work up a load, and it won't even take a full box of bullets to do so.

In the next chapter we’ll talk about inspecting loaded ammo. Hope you enjoyed this instructional.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This instructional took considerable time & effort. It is presented here for free. Enjoy! However if any one feels motivated to express appreciation a donation can be sent to the paypal account [email protected]. No big deal. Thanks! TresMon
Awesome information !
 
  • Like
Reactions: cornhusker86
I must be missing something here....

You guys are ladder testing at 300 to 600 yards?

That does not make sense to me at all because at that distance the faster bullet will always hit high and the slower bullet will always hit low and that will contaminate the efforts to identify where in the barrel oscillation cycle you are. Not to mention the effects of light refraction, wind... etc.

Ladder testing at 100 yards is meaningful because velocity spreads will not have enough of an influence on the vertical impact to offset the POI shift caused by barrel oscillation.

If you don't find a POI shift at 100 yards, then extending the range does not find it. That just drags velocity changes into the mix and contaminates the purity of your data. Unless you correlate your POI to the chronograph speed of each shot and run ballistic math on the expected drop relative to actual... and I doubt many guys are willing to work that hard for it. Even if you did, you still have verticals caused by atmospherics, so it would be just a mess of conflicting data.

Simply put... If you don't find a POI shift at 100 yards... then you don't have a oscillation problem within the powder range you are testing, so shoot what produces the best groups, or widen the powder charge variation until you do find a POI shift. But do not extend the range in an effort to find a POI shift and attribute that to barrel harmonics.
 
Last edited:
Before telling us that established methods dont work why dont you try to actually understand what the tests are attempting to find instead of telling us they couldnt possibly ever work due to your flawed comprehension.

The faster bullet doesnt necessarily always hit higher, in a closed system with no variables, sure, but thats not the case in the real world.

What the ladder test attempts to do is to find a point where the barrel is positively compensating for the rate of gravity on the bullet, aka, faster bullets are coming out low in the upward swing of a barrels sine wave and the slower bullets are coming out later at a higher point in the sine wave.

1569438057302.png

1569438072207.png

1569438130577.png



Edit: Im not going to bump this sticky again but in response to his following post Ill make a PSA: realize that practical tactical is the same dumb shit retard from the youtube page who is an expert in sks tapco stocks and abomination bipods. Ill let yall chose for yourself whether to follow his advice or not
 
Last edited:
Before telling us that established methods dont work why dont you try to actually understand what the tests are attempting to find instead of telling us they couldnt possibly ever work due to your flawed comprehension.

The faster bullet doesnt necessarily always hit higher, in a closed system with no variables, sure, but thats not the case in the real world.

What the ladder test attempts to do is to find a point where the barrel is positively compensating for the rate of gravity on the bullet, aka, faster bullets are coming out low in the upward swing of a barrels sine wave and the slower bullets are coming out later at a higher point in the sine wave.

View attachment 7153389
View attachment 7153390
View attachment 7153391

I could post that black is black and you'd try and find fault with it because you don't like a fricken bipod... grow up dude.

I love it... "Established methods"

Like I said at 100 yards sure ladder testing is no front page news... been doing that for 40 years......at 300 plus yards... you are measuring atmospherics, not barrel harmonics.

I suppose I need to remind myself that not everyone on this site go through 4 seasons the way we do in my area and for people with more stable annual temperatures, this concept may have value.

For people who live with large seasonal temperature changes which translate to velocity changes, it would be quite a challenge to generate the "ideal" muzzle velocity for the conditions present between the testing day and the day you need this to work.

For the 1000 yard bench guys, it would be worthwhile to establish a range of powder charges that correlate the velocity to the current temperature and load the 5 or 10 rounds on the day of the match.

For the typical SH member who I am lead to believe is primarily a PRS shooter, I think the window for this to work is too tight for practical application given the likely temperature swings most of us would live with.

The best you could hope for is that weather on the competition day is similar to the weather at the time you performed the ladder testing…. then the stars would align for you.

Certainly this is luck and would likely occur anyways occasionally by pure chance if you develop loads that are near the end of an oscillation cycle.
 
Last edited:
kramer.gif


Awesome write-up, thaaaank you. I'm pretty new to long range reloading, and this series has been one of the best in helping me understand.

Still working on getting consistent behind the rifle, man I thought this was going to a whole lot easier than it actually is. My FFL laughed in my face when I told him I wanted to shoot 1760. Now I know why.
 
I must be missing something here....

You guys are ladder testing at 300 to 600 yards?

That does not make sense to me at all because at that distance the faster bullet will always hit high and the slower bullet will always hit low and that will contaminate the efforts to identify where in the barrel oscillation cycle you are. Not to mention the effects of light refraction, wind... etc.

Ladder testing at 100 yards is meaningful because velocity spreads will not have enough of an influence on the vertical impact to offset the POI shift caused by barrel oscillation.

If you don't find a POI shift at 100 yards, then extending the range does not find it. That just drags velocity changes into the mix and contaminates the purity of your data. Unless you correlate your POI to the chronograph speed of each shot and run ballistic math on the expected drop relative to actual... and I doubt many guys are willing to work that hard for it. Even if you did, you still have verticals caused by atmospherics, so it would be just a mess of conflicting data.

Simply put... If you don't find a POI shift at 100 yards... then you don't have a oscillation problem within the powder range you are testing, so shoot what produces the best groups, or widen the powder charge variation until you do find a POI shift. But do not extend the range in an effort to find a POI shift and attribute that to barrel harmonics.
You must be an expert of some sort...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alabusa
Question. On a brand new barrel do I need to be concerned about the 150ish round speed up that occurs with a new barrel to do this OCW test. Or will the node be the same no matter when it’s done and just have an increase of velocity within the node?