Handloading for a new world order...

[Greg Langelius *]

While I do believe we are beginning to turn the corner on outrageous demand, there could be some valid reasons for employing our handloading skills to produce ammunition that answers new questions. Those questions involve 'throwaway ammo' that is not intended to have the cases recovered and reloaded, but still needs to benefit from good accuracy loading standards. I'll not get directly into applications for such ammo, but skip to the chase, and deal with how to make it.

All that steelcase TulAmmo and such represents a cheaper supply of one-shot casings. Interestingly, it's actually Boxer primed, but I have yet to try decapping and repriming any. I will, and if it decaps OK, I have the Dillon Super Swage at hand in case there's difficulty with anything related to crimps, etc. My next purchase will be an Ultrasonic cleaner, so cleaning the cases soon after firing could have benefits related to forestalling case corrosion after firing.

But recycling the steel is not part of this discussion at present.

The primed steel cases go bang with enough consistency to be at least considered for what I call 'Mexican Match' ammo production.

I am presently in possession of some batches of ammo I made up by collet pulling the TulAmmo 55FMJ bullets and factory powder, then reassembling using my SRA 69SMK and HDY 75HPBT Match reloads employing Varget propellant.

This is where the project currently sits. Next steps include comparison tests against identical loads made with brass cases and match primers to see how much the accuracy slumps with the 'inferior' primed cases in my own particular.223/5.56 rifles.

At very least my brass and primer supply is not being consumed in the process. And who knows, an application may arise where policing brass is not an option.

Meanwhile, those 55FMJ bullets and factory propellants are not immune from utility for further load development. While not premium components, load development could increase their utility value. They could work rather admirably in my tired and near-to-retirement slow-twist Rem 700VLS .223.

Greg

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Interesting thread Greg. Kinda goes along with what I have been saying about the future of judging quality of a reload. "If it goes bang it is good." I see a lot of guys that are stepping outside the "must have X powder" realm of reloading as well.

I am curious about your results with this one. Keep us posted.

 

[milo 2.0]

I'm kinda curious also, but have to ask why?
Are we so doomed that we're saving our quality components for the final firefight?
If I know I'm going to walk away from brass, I'd just shoot the Tula. And I can't keep up with my reloading needs now.

 

[AZ.noob]

Indeed Greg, good post and very good points. By all means, please do keep us up to speed on how your R&D proceeds.


Side note: As y'all know all too well, there's some pretty kooky stuff out there on the 'net. There's plenty of other sites of similar genre, but more often than not the participants are, dare I say... less than 'qualified'. Here on the Hide, its a very different story. Really good guys (almost without exception), with HUGE experience & knowledge. Thanks fellas for having me around, glad to be a part of it

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Dear hardened fowl, I agree, but I also hope for better than your simpler standard as stated.

All this stems from recent conjecture and experimentation with Russian Surplus 1970's Spamcan steelcase 7.62x54R ammo in a trio of Mosin-Nagant 91/30's. It started out as an attempt to make a stable of silk purses from a few sows' ears, and quickly blossomed into a more greatly vast appreciation of said porkers. The rifles appear crude, but in fact, are well designed, well built, and rugged as a Stalin Tank. Their production pays no deference to aesthetics, but the accuracy is in there, built in from the start. Getting it out into the light of day depends greatly on the care put into its marriage partner, the ammo. For the purposes served by Russian conscripts, minimal dispersion is not an absolute criterion, may not even be desirable (like..., put enough monkeys on enough typewriters, etc...). As Stalin is often paraphrased, quantity has a quality uniquely its own...

When I broke down the ammo on the collet die and simply put it all back together with a published arsenal load using decent standards for consistency, the dispersion tightened up and the flyers dwindled.

Hmmm. ...And Hmm again... Light bulbs lit off like a fireworks show.

Then, I took some Prvi-Partizan/PPU .223 factory match ammo apart, averaged the charge weights, and reassembled it with the same care as above; getting similar imrovement.

All this, without even doing any load development.

There's a lot of benefit to be reaped from simply doing the factory one better, and there is the possibility of doing it two or three better, as well. Its not FGMM, but at the price, it doesn't need to be, and it might even get real close.

I am a firm believer of buy cheap, sell dear. But selling right now could be a fool's option. Maybe it's a really good time to find another way to profit from buying cheap.

Why do all this? A) my crystal ball is cloudy, and may be getting worse, and B) my brass and primers, never in any vastly adequate supply, are being spared from the fray. The TulAmmo was (and still can be...) bought for about $.40-45/rd. I am not preparing for any final countdown. I am trying to mark time during an ambiguous interim with some degree of style and grace. For want of a perfect reason, it gives me something constructive to do whilst awaiting the crash landing of the other sabot...

Also, corrosive priming requires a bit more care cleaning up, but it's reason for being in existence is that it lasts, and lasts, and lasts, and still keeps going 'bang' on demand. For that, I am not averse to running a patch saturated in some Windex down the bore after firing, and cleaning more completely within a day or so. My Gunslick Bore Foam, after the Windex, is equal to the task, even though that surplus stuff burns really dirty.

Greg

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I appreciate your experimentation on this Greg. I noticed the other day that Wolf 223 is also offered in 69 and 75gr varieties now and I am actually thinking of purchasing a bit of the stuff. As you have pointed out, this ammo "is what it is" unless something could change that with a little work. I am curious about retained neck tension and bullet deformation when pulled from these steel cases. It is curious why some steel cases are boxer primed. I have heard of guys reloading steel cases but it is extremely hard on dies, and the results are dubious at best. I would list the practice under, "only if NOT firing your weapon means you will die." Actually I think those are the conditions that were cited by the author of the book I was reading on the subject.

I think it is fair to note, this type of experimentation should be approached with extreme caution by any but the well experienced reloader.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Neck tension is sufficient to prevent setback. I don't really think it's significantly different after reseating a new bullet, the seating force appears 'normal'.

There was a link on here sometime back to a long term AR steelcase ammo test. The authors subjected the rifles to what appeared to be deliberate destruction testing, no cleaning for thousand of rounds, then appeared dismayed when some feed/extract malfunctions and an extractor breakage occurred. I'll simply say that if I subjected my AR to such a regimen, regardless of the ammo, I'd not be surprised at the results, given the callous disregard for customary maintenance. I take considerably better care of my firearms than that.

I don't know the reasons for the Boxer priming. My guess would be that this is probably the same casing source Hornady uses for its Steelcase Match, along with Wolf. Were I them, I'd source to a pair of competitors, for business reasons.

Greg

 

[E. Bryant]

I'd be curious to see the results of this testing, if for no other reason than in the name of science. Curiosity is good, experimentation is good, and learning is good. We don't need any other reasons.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

"Mexican Match":

The M118 was an adequate match cartridge but there was no way to stop shooters from trying to improve it. Any changes to the cartridge were forbidden by the rules if the ammunition was being fired in the National Trophy or Excellence-In-Competition Matches; but when used in other matches, modifications such as breaking the waterproofing seal or even replacing the bullets were common. Altered cartridges with Sierra 168 grain MatchKing bullets came to be known as “Mexican Match” and the positive benefits of the changes were not lost on the Army. By the late 1970s word on the street was that a new official match cartridge with these same improvements was about to be introduced. The rumors were confirmed at the 1980 National Matches when shooters were issued boxes of the new prototype ammunition: 7.62 MM, PXR-6308, loaded with Sierra 168 grain hollow point match bullets to a velocity of 2550 fps (LC 80 SP). In 1981 the new cartridges were designated XM852 (LC 81 NM), and in 1982 adopted as 7.62 MM MATCH M852 (LC 82 NM and LC 83 NM, and LC 85 MATCH to LC 96 MATCH). M852 cartridges can also be identified by a shallow cannelure around the case a short distance above the base. The old reliable IMR 4895 was the only propellant used in M852.

From: History of...

Old documentation of mine lists the 168gr M852 load as 42gr of IMR-4895 in the LC Match brass casing. Personally, I would take any published documentation of USGI Arsenal loaded ammunition with a grain of salt, as their loads were not based on charge weights, but rather, on tested batch velocities using the components onhand.

And finally:

Busted Myth: Don't Shoot Sierra .308 168's at 1000 Yards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sierra Bullets came out with their 30 caliber 168-gr. International hollow point boattailed match bullet in 1958 designed for 300 metre free rifle matches. It soon became popular for high power matches in both bolt guns and the M1 Garand for use at 200 through 600 yards. It did well at 1000 yard matches, too, when leaving the barrel at 2800 fps which it did with maximum loads in the .30-06 in proper dimensioned (tight groove diameter; .3078 or smaller) barrels at least 24 inches long.

Along came the M14 with its 22 inch barrel and in 1963, its cartridge was first allowed at the US National Matches. The 172-gr. .3086-in. diameter military match bullet used in M118 ammo did well in the M14 as well as the 7.62MM NATO Garands. A lot of the barrels on these rifles were a bit over sized (.3082 or more) compared to groove diameters needed for best accuracy, but that "fat" military match bullet caused enough chamber pressure to push it out fast enough that it did well in the 1000 yard matches.

When Lake City Arsenal began using Sierra's 168 in their new M852 match ammo, things still went good, often better, when tight. But only through 600 yards. Some M14, M1A commercial and M1 rifles shooting it had barrels enough oversize that the bullet didn't leave fast enough. Those 168's would go transonic at 800 t0 900 yards and become unstable enough to change direction. Elongated holes on paper showed they had done so.

Meanwhile, folks shooting these bullets fast enough through tight barrels had no problem. But that wasn't good enough for most folks and pressure on Lake City Arsenal's engineers convinced them to make a change. They came out with the M118LR round using Sierra's 175-gr. HPMK bullet. These would stay supersonic through 1000 yards...even in loose barrels didn't shoot them very fast.

So, yes, Sierra 168's can be used in a .308 Win. for 1000 yard matches. I've won a few using 7.62 Garands and bolt guns using 168's. Some folks have done the same using M1A's with match-tight 22-inch barrels. All you need to do is shoot them fast enough. But then, that's the rule with any bullet in any caliber for long range matches.

Myth busted.

Greg

 

[pmclaine]

What a pity people in the USA relying on the availability of former East Block components to reload. What a mess.

 

[Dan Newberry]

What a pity people in the USA relying on the availability of former East Block components to reload. What a mess.

We're not, really... we're just--in typical American fashion--wanting to have our cake and eat yours too.

I've reloaded those steel cases. I never told anyone (until now) , as I didn't want to rouse the self-appointed-mall-cops that troll these and similar pages.

But it does work. I'd load light... find a low OCW node and put some together. It's a tradeable commodity if nothing else.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I've been thinking about what kind of guns to get for the days when you can't buy powder or primers any more and have to make your own as well as cast your own bullets.
Some modern replicas of those old buffalo hunting guns and older revolvers may fit the bill nicely.

 

[George Az]

Well a flintlock might work, but I never knew anyone to make a percusion cap. If one could, you could make a primer.

One can buy belted .308 around here - I mean like linked for a machine gun. A guy I knew had some and i did build some "Mexican Match" of my own. Shot ok, I don't know if it was 1K yard stuff, in fact it wasn't but it was ok for plinking out to 2-300 yrds, which is as far as I went with it and the rifle - a Savage Axis.

From what I could see, this is not boxer primed, so if one wanted to reload it, one had to drill a hole. It could be done, but I didn't do it. Funny, many, many shooters went with the .223 and .308 because it was a military round, and it "would always be around." Who would have thought the rounds on shelves today would be 7 rem mag and .45 long Colt! 30-06 is easier to get where I am than .308. I haven't seen factory .308 or a .22 on the shelf in 7 months now.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Stuff is starting to reappear in our region (not in Wallyworld, tho); .223 and 7.62x39 a few weeks ago, 45ACP, .380, and .22LR last week. I don't like the prices well enough to bite just yet, but it is available for a price. Varget, when available, goes $33-$35 per lb.

Once read up on a US Army 'Field Expedient' manual that primers/percussion caps could be refilled using the tips from 'strike anywhere' matches. Didn't sound at all reliable to me. The primer indentation would have o be tapped flat, and the anvil would need to be removed and put back after filling.

Greg

 

[Scott E White]

...Also, corrosive priming requires a bit more care cleaning up, but it's reason for being in existence is that it lasts, and lasts, and lasts, and still keeps going 'bang' on demand. For that, I am not averse to running a patch saturated in some Windex down the bore after firing, and cleaning more completely within a day or so. My Gunslick Bore Foam, after the Windex, is equal to the task, even though that surplus stuff burns really dirty.Greg

Interesting consideration; I didn't realize these loads used corrosive priming, but it's not anything I've used as of yet. Aren't all these cases laquered to retard corrosion, and if so, do your chambers also require special attention?

I like this 'study' of yours, and I think it may well be worth serious thought, for a variety of reasons. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

They don't have corrosive priming, but the 1970's Russian MilSurp does.

Older lacquered cases had issues, current polymer coated cases have less, or none.

Greg

 

[BuzzBoss915]

There was a time I thought I would never use another factory rifle cartridge. The gist of this thread and the depression that goes along with it forces me to reconsider a long time attitude. If I had to use strike anywhere matches and pound primer cups flat, I would much prefer factory ammunition; if it existed, at any price. Therein lies the problem.

Thanks, Greg. (I mean, "Mr Sunshine") BB

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Interesting theory here, Greg. FWIW, I have posted a thread on here which deals with a rather easy way to convert Berdan Prime to Boxer Prime. I have done so with about 40 cases of 30.06 with excellent results.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading/181337-berdan-boxer-conversion.html

I stocked up on some Russian Mil-Surp ammo about 20 years ago for my Ruger Mini-30. That is my SHTF stock for such an occasion as you envision. However, I really like your research and will actually consider trying a few things on my own. Where I shoot, one can always find spent steel casings, and in good condition. Might be worth "playing" with to see what can be developed.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Interesting link. That's really taking a concept to a logical conclusion. For me, things would need to get a lot worse before it would come across as practical for my own situation. But it's also good to know that the concept has been proven.

Greg

 

[wakajawaka]

One of my shooting buddies reloads steel cased boxer primed .223 with no issues.

Treats it the same as brass as far as I know.

He's been doing it for a while now.

 

[Whole Bunches]

One of my shooting buddies reloads steel cased boxer primed .223 with no issues.

Treats it the same as brass as far as I know.

He's been doing it for a while now.

Yep, that's me.

I reload aluminum, boxer primed pistol cases with no problems. I avoid aluminum cases that appear to have been sitting outside for a while, as they fall apart after while like aluminum cans that have been outside for a long time. Freshly fired aluminum cases are what I like to pick up. They last about 3-4 reloads before there's a neck split. I use carbide dies, reloading 9mm, .380, 45acp, and 40 S&W.

I reload steel, boxer primed .223/5.56 cases. I avoid steel cases that have been sitting outside that have rust on them. Although in resizing there is a layer of lube between the steel case and the sizing die that I feel protects the die, I avoid cases with any signs of rust in that it could make the case weaker, and the rust could harm my sizing die. Tula, Golden Tiger, and some Wolf use boxer primers. The primers are not crimped in, but the primer pockets can be a tad snugger than those in commercial brass cases. 1) Inside chamfer the case neck the first time, as the sharp edge of the not chamfered steel case can shave some bullet jacket material off when bullet seating. 2) I toss the cases when they need trimming, as the steel is harder to trim than brass, and I don't want to prematurely dull my trimmer. They generally go several reloadings before needing trimming. 3) I use the same load as for brass cases. 4) The act of resizing steel seems to smooth out the surface. I have one bbl in which factory steel has a tendency to stick in the chamber after firing. My reloaded steel cases do not stick. Multiple reloadings remove some of the whatever coatings on the steel case, giving cases that have a silver looking surface. I've had no problems with rusting, but I also keep my ammo in a dehumidified area anyway. 5) I've never kept detailed records on steel case life, but they seem to go 3 or so loadings until a neck split, or they go a long time (see silver looking surface comment above). 6) IMPORTANT: Shine a light into each case before sizing to make sure a berdan case didn't get mixed in...broken decapping pins/rods negate the savings.

I've fiddled with reloading boxer primed steel 45acp, but for no particular reason I just haven't gotten into it. I seem to find a lot more aluminum boxer primed 45acp than steel 45acp boxer primed cases. I've never seen a boxer primed aluminum 38 special case and even the boxer primed 40 S&W is scarce. I've never seen boxer primed steel .308/7.62x51 or 30/06.

Bonus: When I ask shooters if I can have their aluminum or steel cases, they will often help pick them up for me, as it makes them feel good that someone can use them.

Added bonus: That aluminum and steel cases are reloaded will sometimes make shooters heads spin around so to speak, but then some get interested, and I share my experiences. In this day of little to no brass cases left on the ranges for reloaders to pickup or others to pick up for selling/giving to reloaders, steel and aluminum is still in abundance.

Following my own rules, I've never had a case failure/head separation/primer pocket enlargement/case split (other than neck splits when the case was worn out) with steel or aluminum case reloads.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Short story long (having keyboard problems that wiped out two long posts before I could submit them, DAMNNIT!):

No visible difference in performance in two different rifles. Seating bullets in unchamfered steel shaved some copper, but very thin, about like gold leaf. The load, 75gr HDY HPBT Match and 23.5gr Varget, produced moderately flattened primers on the TulAmmo case. The 'Contingency Semi' (1:8" twist) shot tiny. The MVP Predator (1:9" twist) patterned about 3"; apparently it doesn't like the 75. Will try 69gr loads with it next.

Not a conclusive test (only about 20rd of each load, at 100yd), more testing to come, longer distance. more rounds; but results look promising. Resizing, repriming the steel comes next.

Ordering my Ultrasonic cleaning setup in a day or two, will use it to get the case interiors clean, as a hedge against internal rust.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

After my preliminary testing, and reading Whole Bunches' immediately preceding post, I recognize that there's really no compelling need for me to provide further proof of the concept. It works, pure and simple. I'm adopting it, and will only be reporting any counterintuitive findings I may encounter. I will also be checking my bores for any evidence of corrosive priming.

I wish all my projects were this simple and ended so well.

Greg

 

[solarflarearts]

Are any of you casting and using 308 bullets, I hear they work well and I hear do not do it. Also the use of gas check vs thin copper plating the projectile.

 

[solarflarearts]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Are any of you casting and using 308 bullets, I hear they work well and I hear do not do it. Also the use of gas check vs thin copper plating the projectile.

You are being rather vague my friend. You need to be one hell of a lot more specific but I will throw you a bone.
Yes I have used cast .308 bullets...but they are never .308. Sometimes they are .311, sometimes less sometimes more depending on alloy and whether you heat treat, THEN you probably(after you slug your barrel you will know),size the bullet to .309 not .308, unless you are talking about using them in a Nagant and that would put you out of my field of expertise but I could give you some pointers on approach.

Gas check is a good idea on rifle rounds, I even used them in my 30 Carbine pistol on 180gr cast that only clocked 1100fps. A gas check is not a guarantee of no leading. Proper lube matched to the pressure of the load is most important. Lube doesn't necessarily work the way some think it does, I can answer that if you are interested. Hard bullets do not guaranteee you will not have leading.
The latest rage is polymer coated bullets, or simply put powder coated bullets. The concept looks promising and I have talked to a few guys at the range that have me about sold on buying more moulds and farting around with cast bullets again.
This may not be the best place to ask this question really. There are lots of cast bullet sites where guys can tell you all the ins and outs. Google is your friend.

Edit:
BtW, copper coating bullets is not feasible for the hobby/home bullet coater. Incredibly time consuming and prohibitive due to cost of chemicals, equipment etc. Leave that to the professionals. Not saying it can't be done cause it has but it was never more than a science project.

 

[solarflarearts]

Thank you for the info.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Resized/decapped and reprimed a small batch of steel cases yesterday; no perceptible differences from working with brass cases. It'll be interesting to see how they reload, and how they shoot with BR-4's.

 

[AZ.noob]

I wish all my projects were this simple and ended so well.

True words spoken right there
Thanks for the info Greg, really good stuff

 

[biffj]

I have reloaded a pretty good amount of wolf .45 ACP cases with very good results. I've been doing it for years. The steel doesn't hurt the chamber of the gun or the die because it never touches the surface of either. The laquer/polymer coating on the cartridge case is softer than brass and if you look at fired cases you will see that there is no steel exposed so no contact. I've got cases that have been reloaded 15 times with no issues. I toss them when I see any steel exposed. I've yet to see any cracks or splits like brass cases would have. I shoot them in my M&P 45 pistol with a suppressor and in Thompson submachineguns. I've never broken an extractor or had any chamber issues. Steel cases are fine.

I have a friend who has a belt fed H&K clone in .223. He picks up fired wolf and tula cases to reload. He loves them because they never split or crack, they feed more consistently and extract easier than brass cases especially when the barrel/chamber is hot. The last machinegun shoot we went to saw him fire about 7000 rds of his reloads all of which were tracer. Mostly he used them against the model airplanes because the tracer helps you see how much lead you have to have to hit the plane. He knocked down 6 or 7 of the 20 planes they flew at the shoot. I managed to nail one too but it was with a watercooled belt-fed on a tripod using surplus factory ammo.

In any case the use of steel cases is a great idea for blasting ammo and since most guys toss it at the range its a good source for us.
I think they make boxer primed cases because it saves a step or two in manufacturing the steel part. The primers are made from brass which is much easier to work. I don't think they were intending to supply the american reloading market but they have helped us. As for whether it is good enough for very accurate ammo I can't say. I've been using it in machineguns primarily which aren't normally used for sniping.

The pictures are the MM23 H&K 23 clone with a belt getting ready to be loaded. Next is the Swiss MG11 maxim gun being fired and the last is a 20mm Solothurn Anti-Tank rifle which also uses some steel cases only they are stainless and made just for the civvie market here in the US. 550grains of powder topped with a 1550gr 20mm vulcan projectile gives about 3200fps and in the picture the rifle is being fired at a 6ft by 8ft target 1600yds away. We could get more velocity but cases are about $50 ea and more powder cuts the useful life down a lot. Out of 25rds fired by 6 different people (4 of whom had never fired anything that big) we found 19 hits on the target.

Steel cases are good.....just don't tell anyone or our supply will dwindle.
Frank


Frank

 

[UrbanSi]

I have played with steel cased reloads for .45 ACP.

I figured its low enough pressure that the case should be able to handle it.

I have only shot about 20 of them in a 1911 but they all went bang and there were no feeding or extraction issues.

Would I do it regularly? maybe, if I had enough cases laying around I don't see why not. They didn't seem hard on my carbide dies or the gun. Groups were the same as brass cased ammo.

Truly the only reason I would load a large batch of steel cased stuff is when I cannot recover my brass cased stuff.

 

[rjacobs]

So, from a financial aspect, does this even make sense when you can buy, when prices are good, 1000 once fired brass .223/5.56 cases for like 60 bucks shipped(currently about 90, which is a little high, but not crazy)? I have a friend that buys brass at the .mil auctions for less than a penny per when he buys like 2k lbs of brass at a time(its fun looking at 40k cases in a HUGE palletized container). I just looked at Brassmanbrass.com and they have 2500 once fired, unprocessed for 195 shipped or ~8c per case.

Im just trying to figure out financially WHY you are spending 40c per round and then disassembling to get a ~10c 55g bullet and 5c worth of powder to re-use. So your case costs 25c, call it 22c because it comes with a primer worth 3c. If I can buy brass case and start from scratch for around 8c a case, financially, whats the point in doing this exercise?

So if I am at 8c a case for brass plus a 3c primer plus a 23c 77g SMK plus 9c for powder(using $25 per pound) you are at 43c for brass case.
With taking down a steel case you are at 25c for the case+primer, 23c for the 77g SMK, and 9c for your powder you are at 57c.

Now you all are talking about picking up steel cases at the range and there, yes you save money, just like if you pick up brass cases at the range(if you can find em) so in that case, yes, you save money by completely reloading the steel cases.

If it gets to a point where I cant recover my .223 brass, I dont think I will care about it though, I will just want ammo. I hope to God I am never in a situation like that, but if I am the brass(or steel) wont be a thought in my mind. If it is bad and I think about it I have a brass recovery bag for my AR for when I shoot 300BLK because I have to form that brass myself.

But at present, and the prices you all are talking about, I dont see how spending 40c on a bullet just to pull everything out of it save for the primer to replace it with good stuff saves you any money at all, in fact it costs MORE than just buying and processing the once fired .223 brass unless some how my math is screwed up.

I respect wanting to try different things to see whats feasible though just in case.

 

[Tough Guy]

What a pity people in the USA relying on the availability of former East Block components to reload. What a mess.

This thread basically border lines on the TV series MacGyver where one must make do with whatever becomes available during a dire situation. You can do it and you can learn from it but there is no need for it in any normal situation. When I first came here I talked about shooting 7.62 out of a 308 barrel. Some here couldn't figure out I was only talking about that 7.62 round that is most identical to the 308 round. They thought I was talking about all 7.62 rounds. So sometimes you have to take things with a grain of salt round here. There will be those who understand what your talking about and some who will be confused about what the subject is about.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Perhaps no one here is advocating making a large stash of such re-manufactured rounds. Perhaps we are just exploring the viability of said venture, should the need arise in an unforeseen world. By experimenting now, we would be prepared should such an occasion arise, and know how to go about making such rounds.
That is my interest in this venture. Preparedness. Not advocating everyone try it, but I personally, want to know if it works, and how to do it...

 

[rjacobs]

I guess maybe I would be more interested in seeing what pulling all the bullets, dumping powder and re-weighing to a more precise, even charge across all the rounds and then re-seating in a better, more precise seating die so that all of your ammo, even though its the exact same stuff that came out of the box component wise, was more accurate.

I think about a situation where you are going to be leaving casings behind as a situation where you just need to put bullets down range and components, any components, will be scarce let alone trying to find Varget and 75g Hornady or 77g SMK's. But if you have a press you could take a ton of marginal ammo and re-build it, so to speak, using the same thing, but have a more precise round in the end even though you changed nothing about the base components.

I might buy a couple hundred rounds of Wolf and try this and see what I come up with.

 

[pmclaine]

This thread basically border lines on the TV series MacGyver where one must make do with whatever becomes available during a dire situation. You can do it and you can learn from it but there is no need for it in any normal situation. When I first came here I talked about shooting 7.62 out of a 308 barrel. Some here couldn't figure out I was only talking about that 7.62 round that is most identical to the 308 round. They thought I was talking about all 7.62 rounds. So sometimes you have to take things with a grain of salt round here. There will be those who understand what your talking about and some who will be confused about what the subject is about.

My comment wasnt directed at the posters efforts more so toward the state of the Country.

Makes me think at some point in time an organization would be directed to conduct an armed raid under the suspicion of a S1050 on the premises.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

With regard to the first option, I have done this with both Prvi-Partizan 69gr and 75gr match ammo, which is pretty good ammo, and Russian spamcan steelcase surplus 7.62x54R, which is not nearly as good. When reloaded with averaged charge weights, flyers tend to be greatly reduced and groups become more consistent, maybe even a smidge smaller. So the ammo's performance can be improved with no additional expense, and can also me made to respond to some load development using the provided components, which are usually good enough that they are not at the root of any intrinsic inaccuracy the factory ammo exhibits.

The Russian spamcan surplus is clean, the components are of surprisingly decent quality, and one can obtain significantly improved performance from them following some rudimentary load development and assembly employing decent handloading diligence. Alas, the Russian x54R is Berdan primed and beyond my capacity to reprime. But refab'ing small batches at a time can allow for a less costly source of ammunition that still shoots relatively acceptably.

In the second instance, match loads made from the steel casings shoot on a clear par with my match loads made identically except for the use of brass, rather than steel, casings. There is literally no performance diminution, and the 'harvested' original components can later be remarried to the cases. This repurposes the ammo to suit its original intent. Meanwhile, the cases serve a more specialized purpose(s?) as well as more expensive cases, at essentially no further monetary outlay than that the of the final priming replacement.

In essence; having the steel cases allows one to load up and set aside match grade ammo for a non-specific contingency without having to dip into brass case resources more customarily dedicated to competition applications.

Be careful what you buy, the Berdan/Boxer versions of the steelcase ammos have virtually identical packaging except for the priming info. Read each loose box, confirming that it meets your requirement they can easily end up being mixed on the shelf. Of the ammo brands I have been able to accumulate, the only one with Boxer priming has been TulAmmo.

For me, this has been more about proof of concept than about stockpiling, etc. It remains as an option which has been proven an adequately sound one.

My comment wasnt directed at the posters efforts more so toward the state of the Country.

Makes me think at some point in time an organization would be directed to conduct an armed raid under the suspicion of a S1050 on the premises.

Actually, this is pretty much the kind of conjecture I was hoping to avoid seeing in this thread. Perhaps the user could remove it on their own, especially as it appears to refer in some large part to a discussion that is not originally part of this topic? Seen in a less positive light, it may appear to lend an unwelcome political aspect to this topic.

Greg

 

[biffj]

At one time back in the early 90's I was taking russian and chinese ball 7.62X54R and pulling the bullets, dumping the powder (for later reuse of both) and reloading the cases with US made powders and SMK bullets for my Dragunov. Ball ammo was shooting 3" groups at 100yds and I thought the rifle could do better. Despite the .310 bore in the Drag I was using .308 168gr Matchkings and was able to get the group size down to about an inch average. The cases worked fine and as GL noted priming berdan cases can be painful so the only real alternative was pulling bullets and using the cases. At that time the popularity of the round wasn't enough to find manufacturers who made boxer primed cases. In addition the selection of .310-.311 dia bullets was pretty sad so I used .308. It was also very difficult to find tracer ammo for most of the eastern bloc cals so we pulled standard 147gr ball ammo, resized the necks and loaded 147gr US .308 tracer bullets. This also was done for .303 brit and it worked outstanding. All of our machineguns (gas or recoil operated) ran as reliably with the smaller (.003") bullets, point of impact was the same (as much as tracers ever are) and we now had a ready source of ammo that was otherwise unobtainable.
I guess the point here is that it worked in the past for special applications and can work in the future with the bonus that we now have boxer primed steel cases we can REload rather than just pull and load. I don't think its something we would do for normal everyday shooting but it does give an alternative source of components.

Frank

 

[Greg Langelius *]

*Update* Handloading for a new world order...

After some time reloading the TulAmmo .223 cases with mild loads; my enthusiasm exceeded my caution, and I tried using some stiffer loads that I usually run in brass cases.

Suffice it to say, there arose a problem. First, the advice about avoiding hotter loads is very helpful. Next, exploring said hotter loads exposes a significant difference between the steel cases and their brass brethren; the steel cases contain a notably smaller case capacity. Milder charges work, stiffer loads generate considerably higher pressures and lock up bolts.

Example:

I recently purchased a new Savage .223 and while doing abbreviated accuracy testing/sighting in I found that it shot rather well with my standard varmint load, the 50gr Nosler BT and 26gr of Varget in a PPU brass case. As an afterthought, I made up five more cartridges using the same load in the TulAmmo steel case. When I had completed my match using the PPU brass loads, I tried the steel case loads on the sighters. Two of the five locked up the bolt hard enough to require a rap on the bolt handle with a 2x4 lumber scrap to open it.

My bad, my bad, my maximum bad...

Several failures of handloading principles were committed. First, anecdotal info was taken at face value without confirmation. Next, loads were built on significantly different cases without verifying case capacities, and without starting low, working up.

Dumb, and yes, even dumber.

Brief observation suggest that the case capacity of the steel case is at least 2gr less of powder to achieve the same 'top of shoulder' fill level with Varget. Looking carefully at load data for the .222 Rem and .223 Rem suggests that the TulAmmo .223 case capacity falls somewhere between the two, and my own personal prudence demands I put that capacity rather closer to that of the .222.

Therefore, I am modifying my TulAmmo .223 steel case usage policy accordingly. I will now treat is as a new wildcat cartridge, smaller in capacity than the .223, and larger than the .222. All loads will henceforth need to be developed individually for this case. Starting charge weights will be lower than published .223 loads by at least 2gr, maybe 3gr, depending on the bullet.

When examining fired cases for pressure signs, those derived from examining the case itself would appear to be unreliable. While primer pocket growth should not be much of an issue, indicators like ejector swipes would be far less apparent. Stiff bolt opening and flattened/cratered primers would increase in significance as primary pressure indicators.

It is likely that velocity goals will need to be modified somewhat downward. It may also turn out that these cases may allow more moderate .223 performance with smaller charge weights, thus saving slightly on powder.

While these steel cases do have these significant issues, dealing with them in a more cautious manner could still avail the handloader with an alternative case source. Just pay serious attention to the above cautions.

Greg

 

[rduckwor]

This is excellent information and timely even though component shortage seem to be easing. I would like to see case capacity of these steel case in Gr of water so we could have a direct comparison with the brass case we commonly use.

Thanks for all your work on this.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I never measure case capacity in water, since I never load my cases with water. I measure capacity using the powder I intend to load. I use my standard 4" drop tube and drop powder until it overflows, then screed off the charge even with the case mouth.

The steel case capacity is 26 gr of Varget, while the same charge fills the PPU case to the top of the shoulder. Top of the shoulder in the steel case is 24gr. A ballpark ratio for steel cases might be to multiply .223 starting charge weights by .90 . Don't quote me on this.

Since I don't load these specific charge weights arbitrarily; they are approximate, and useful only as a ballpark reference.

Greg

 

[rduckwor]

I measure capacity using the powder I intend to load. I use my standard 4" drop tube and drop powder until it overflows, then screed off the charge even with the case mouth.

Greg

Not sure if you are joking or otherwise pulling my leg.

You fill a steel case completely with Varget then seat the bullet?

 

[Kinsman]

"Well a flintlock might work, but I never knew anyone to make a percussion cap. If one could, you could make a primer." George Az

I own a device called TAP-A-CAP that uses metal from aluminum cans and caps for cap pistol that, although slow, will form usable primers for cap and ball weapons.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Not sure if you are joking or otherwise pulling my leg.

You fill a steel case completely with Varget then seat the bullet?

No, that's how he measures his case capacity. Most of us use water, but he figures that since he is not shooting a squirt gun, he will use what he IS shooting.
Some folks use a fine ball type powder, I have read. I guess it all works as long as it is applied with common sense.

 

[rduckwor]

No, that's how he measures his case capacity. Most of us use water, but he figures that since he is not shooting a squirt gun, he will use what he IS shooting.
Some folks use a fine ball type powder, I have read. I guess it all works as long as it is applied with common sense.

Roger that.

Somehow I was confused.

Thanks,

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm glad you folks were able to get this sorted out in the time it took for me to get back to this topic.

This topic is about something that is both unorthodox and experimental, and about the last thing I would want is for anyone to get it wrong and do injury or damage. Basically, if what you're reading looks/sounds wrong, you should stop and ask before proceeding.

Greg

 

[rduckwor]

As I said up above., I think it is a worthwhile endeavor and appreciate the info you are providing. The future is more uncertain that ever and this may be a good option somewhere down the road.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Are any of you casting and using 308 bullets, I hear they work well and I hear do not do it. Also the use of gas check vs thin copper plating the projectile.

Years ago I used to cast for .30-30 and some other lower velocity .30 rifles. I found that the lead fouling, etc. was not really worth it. And by the time you size, lube, gas check, etc. your time ends up being not worth buying jacketed rounds. I do, however, still shoot .30 lead in a Contender .30-30. But I keep the velocity down. There are a lot of great old Lyman molds out there that make some interesting bullet shapes.

That said... I still do cast. Love doing it. I find it relaxing. Just picked it up again after having very little spare time the past 18 months... but just this afternoon cast up about 100 .577 Snider Enfield conversion bullets. And did more than 500 .45 minie's a couple of weeks ago for BP shooting.

Casting is fun, easy and cheap. It's safe as long as you follow basic rules... A Lee production pot, which is a bottom pour furnace, costs very little and is utterly worth the investment. Molds are readily available on eBay or Gunbroker. I love my old Lyman steel molds. But Lee aluminum molds do a great job and the aluminum holds the heat very well. Though they can be delicate (alignment-wise, etc.)

For revolvers or .45's... cast bullets are a great option. And, yes, in times of shortage, it's easy to get lead (so far) from old pipes and wheel weights. Car batteries are best avoided as a source for lead. I am sure there are some good web sites on casting.

Finally, casting is very satisfying... when you not only load your own round, but poured your own bullet... your ammo is truly yours!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Mad_Charlie]

For casting, check out castboolits.com, Cast Boolits

You will learn more than you ever wanted to know about casting and shooting lead bullets, and there are mostly great folks over there, only a few asswipes.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Mad Charlie... I needed another cool web site to see like I need a hole in the head...

That said, very informative site! I had not seen it. And it already solved my problem of a .577 Snider sizing/lube die... which is to just machine one myself from a 7/8 x 14 bolt. I should have thought of that one myself....

Thanks for the link! This is what I love about SH... there's always someone out there who has the right info!

Cheers,

Sirhr