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Hard to spot bullet holes at 300 yards

L

LostInTranslation

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 16, 2020
104
8
Went shooting at 300 yard for the first time. Very much enjoyed the experience and kept groups within MOA.

One challenge I had was spotting bullet holes. I used "splash" targets - which made holes easier to see. But nonetheless it was challenging both through scope and through 60x razor spotter. Mirage was definitely getting in the way.

I was shooting 6.5 creedmoor.

Is my experience normal? Up to what distance is it practical to spot holes?
 
That’s normal. High magnification doesn’t help when the mirage washes out any light coming through it.

Put several different types of paper out at distance and shoot them. I’ve found a brilliant white computer paper is impossible to see the holes and they get washed out in the brightness but a softer muted white butcher paper makes it much easier.

But true alpha swaro glass will help but even that can only do so much when the lights getting bent and distorted on its way to the optic.
 
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I agree with Nacho, there’s been times where even the best glass struggles at distance; however, I am surprised you could not see a shoot-n-c type of target, my struggles have been on bright white card stock.
Try to fine tune your diopter next time, see if minor adjustments +\- can’t eek out a bit more clarity while maintaining parallax.
 
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Glassaholic said:
I agree with Nacho, there’s been times where even the best glass struggles at distance; however, I am surprised you could not see a shoot-n-c type of target, my struggles have been on bright white card stock.
Try to fine tune your diopter next time, see if minor adjustments +\- can’t eek out a bit more clarity while maintaining parallax.
Click to expand...
I could see shoot-n-c but was getting hard due to washed out mirage.
 
ShaoKahn said:
You can get a Longshot LR-3. No problems seeing holes on the target. Up to 2 miles.
Click to expand...
This is actually quite a neat gadget. Was put off by price a bit - but it is better than using spotting scope... I am sure battery management (of it and phone) can start getting annoying but still. Thanks for suggestion - will consider it once I start shooting longer distances.
 
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I assume the OP is shooting paper. Which in that case spotting an actual bullet hole would be rather difficult in some conditions. If you get white paper or hit the cardboard or whatever you are shooting with some white paint the contrast might be easier to pick up. White paint/black bullet hole vs Black bullet hole on a brown cardboard target might be easier to see. I don't ever shoot at paper but on steel at 300 you would definitely know it, especially with a 6.5 Creed.
 
try reactive targets even the ones you can make your self should help just for an idea to play with

another idea maybe you could try this idea to cut the mirage
No idea if it works yet or not but he said it helps good luck . also to add so you never have a visual problem again this video might help
 
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I routinely shoot square range, maybe 300/600 on a Saturday and always a 1,000 on a Sunday. The people who use steel have immediate visual (and usually) auditory feedback - no need for a camera system - a simple respray when we go cold and they're GTG. Our paper shooters on KD (Known Distance) target frames all use the Target Vision system. Some have the Caldwell, some others, but the best performing and preferred seem to be the TVs. They can place 3-9 targets on that KD and shoot for hours before they need to go downrange. A bit more complicated with the camera and app, but once you have it down, they save a lot of time.

People will use the large 18" Shoot n See targets out to 600. On a day when the mirage isn't bad, you can see groupings but sunlight and mirage often make it difficult.
 
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Might be normal for a scope not to see holes at 300, IMO it all depends on conditions that day, I'm sure it also depends on the size of the bullet holes and target color.

300 yards is an intermediate distance that I don't shoot often, but I distinctly remember being able to see bullet holes last time I shoot 300 yards with my 4-16 atacr.

I am surprised you weren't able to see holes with a spotting scope.
 
ShaoKahn said:
You can get a Longshot LR-3. No problems seeing holes on the target. Up to 2 miles.
Click to expand...
I'd rather use a drone in hover mode...heck of a lot more fun ? LOL...kidding of course but hey...I'm sure battery life would negate the possibilities...and I'm pretty sure my dumb *ss would probably hit the drone instead of the target haha...but it does give me another thought/new sport...mount a 22 with a remote fire set-up on one and go after some prairie dogs ?...that would be pretty badass...seeing your inflight image being displayed with a reticle as well...hell some of those air guns have full auto fire too...I might have taken too many pills this morning 🤔🤣
 
somebody talked about getting one of those super-zoom digital cameras and trying that out.
considering the correction that might be possible in the software, i wonder what sort of image quality they can get at 300+.
 
theLBC said:
somebody talked about getting one of those super-zoom digital cameras and trying that out.
considering the correction that might be possible in the software, i wonder what sort of image quality they can get at 300+.
Click to expand...
I've never used a drone...the things are amazing to me as far as some of the video I've watched that people took with one...and then I saw a year ago or so some indoor racing they were doing with them...holy crap that blew me away...these guys were cook'n speed wise around and thru obstacles...my reflexes have long since gone I think for stuff like that...if I ever even had them...but I have wondered if a person could use one to see target impacts at distance...just fly the drone on down...hover it and aim the camera...shoot away /shrug...hell good drones can be had much cheaper than good spotting scopes...but there's a lot of things in my head that dont quite translate well in reality lmao...but now weaponize one with a full auto pellet gun or something and damn...THAT sounds like fun ready to happen 🤣
 
I know one thing...mirage wouldnt matter anymore as far as seeing impacts if something like a hovering drone was even practical...at any distance or any type of target or color of paper /shrug
 
Anointed1 said:
I've never used a drone...the things are amazing to me as far as some of the video I've watched that people took with one...and then I saw a year ago or so some indoor racing they were doing with them...holy crap that blew me away...these guys were cook'n speed wise around and thru obstacles...my reflexes have long since gone I think for stuff like that...if I ever even had them...but I have wondered if a person could use one to see target impacts at distance...just fly the drone on down...hover it and aim the camera...shoot away /shrug...hell good drones can be had much cheaper than good spotting scopes...but there's a lot of things in my head that dont quite translate well in reality lmao...but now weaponize one with a full auto pellet gun or something and damn...THAT sounds like fun ready to happen 🤣
Click to expand...
lots of people already use drones and at least one guy posted up some footage somewhere. you could use one that hovers, but the battery life isn't that great so that would be limited. if you have bank, you can get a big drone that will carry a range camera out to the target area and bring it back.
 
theLBC said:
lots of people already use drones and at least one guy posted up some footage somewhere. you could use one that hovers, but the battery life isn't that great so that would be limited. if you have bank, you can get a big drone that will carry a range camera out to the target area and bring it back.
Click to expand...
Well there's an idea too 👍
 
Anointed1 said:
Well there's an idea too 👍
Click to expand...
pretty sure you could get a mavic or whatever, attach something so it points up at an angle when it is resting on the ground, and then just land out there and point the camera. you just gotta try not to shoot your drone.

 
I shoot at daybreak, just when the sun is rising, most days no wind, light is not too bright, but even across course of fire and no mirage at that time.
 
Has anyone actually tried a drone layout on ground angled upwards? Looks like inexpensive DJI Mavic Mini is $350, has quite a lot of range, 30 min flight time (which has to be quite a lot of "standby and transmit video" time), readily available batteries, etc. It does not have some of the features of LR-3 - but on flip side it is one of few things you can use outside shooting :)

I'd be curious about how well does app work, does it time-out, battery life, etc...
 
LostInTranslation said:
This is actually quite a neat gadget. Was put off by price a bit - but it is better than using spotting scope... I am sure battery management (of it and phone) can start getting annoying but still. Thanks for suggestion - will consider it once I start shooting longer distances.
Click to expand...
Buy a 5 dollar phone tripod set it up in front and to the side of the target a few feet and FaceTime your buddy and watch the FaceTime while y’all shoot, boom you just saved 833 and if you accidentally shoot your phone at 300 you had it coming lol.
 
LostInTranslation said:
Has anyone actually tried a drone layout on ground angled upwards? Looks like inexpensive DJI Mavic Mini is $350, has quite a lot of range, 30 min flight time (which has to be quite a lot of "standby and transmit video" time), readily available batteries, etc. It does not have some of the features of LR-3 - but on flip side it is one of few things you can use outside shooting :)

I'd be curious about how well does app work, does it time-out, battery life, etc...
Click to expand...
There is plenty of youtube video of it.

IMO the future will be small fleet of drones with ultrasonic wind vanes and a target cam.
 
I also use the Longshot target camera . Best money I’ve spent !
 
After watching YouTube - I am going to try building simple FPV system - should be $200-300 all in. Videos looked promising. I am sure it won't be as polished as Longshot...

I am going a route of having separate monitor.

Parts ordered - very curious of outcome.

But from what I've seen/read - remote camera route seems the way to go. Maybe with exception of watching bullet trail...
 
LostInTranslation said:
After watching YouTube - I am going to try building simple FPV system - should be $200-300 all in. Videos looked promising. I am sure it won't be as polished as Longshot...

I am going a route of having separate monitor.

Parts ordered - very curious of outcome.

But from what I've seen/read - remote camera route seems the way to go. Maybe with exception of watching bullet trail...
Click to expand...
Curious to hear/see your results.
 
LostInTranslation said:
After watching YouTube - I am going to try building simple FPV system - should be $200-300 all in. Videos looked promising. I am sure it won't be as polished as Longshot...

I am going a route of having separate monitor.

Parts ordered - very curious of outcome.

But from what I've seen/read - remote camera route seems the way to go. Maybe with exception of watching bullet trail...
Click to expand...
I've seen people do the same here at Quantico. A bit more cumbersome then the TV, but they work!
 
LostInTranslation said:
This is actually quite a neat gadget. Was put off by price a bit - but it is better than using spotting scope... I am sure battery management (of it and phone) can start getting annoying but still. Thanks for suggestion - will consider it once I start shooting longer distances.
Click to expand...
A group/shared buy with trusted family, maybe friend? I want one to watch what wind/mirage shift I get each shot. Which shot went in/out when, rather than walking out after each shot or interpreting a group after the fact. I am old. :confused:
 
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Past 100, just shoot steel. Much more satisfying than paper with instant feedback.

I prefer smaller targets at any given distance, but that's personal preference.

With a larger target, you can spot WHERE you hit with a clean layer of paint but once your rifle is dialed, there is no point to that. Or use paper if you need precision.

175gr .308 hitting steel is a happy sound. 140gr 6.5 slightly less so. 77gr .223 slightly less than. .22 at 300... music like a music box.
 
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At the risk of sounding like a poor hick (I am), I have a wooden 30"w x 60"h target frame (breaks down into 30" pieces and goes together like Lincoln Logs). I use the standard 16" x 16" Redfield sight in targets with the 4 small and 1 large red diamonds. On the back of the frame at the top is a dowel where I tie on a boat load of ~24" neon green flagger tape streamers. Still use a spotting scope, but it does help with 30 cal and up.
 
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LostInTranslation said:
After watching YouTube - I am going to try building simple FPV system - should be $200-300 all in. Videos looked promising. I am sure it won't be as polished as Longshot...

I am going a route of having separate monitor.

Parts ordered - very curious of outcome.

But from what I've seen/read - remote camera route seems the way to go. Maybe with exception of watching bullet trail...
Click to expand...
 
I tried the homemade target cam . It was ok , But Longshot is incredible .
 
or this never wonder how you shot know
autotrickler.com

ShotMarker

The electronic target for everyone. by Adam MacDonald Order Now ShotMarker changes the way we shoot at long range. Attach the sensors to your frame and receive instant feedback on your mobile device, at any range, as long as the bullet is supersonic at the target. Using 8 high precision MEMS...
autotrickler.com autotrickler.com
still might wanna get a pad or something to view it on .
 
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acudaowner said:
or this never wonder how you shot know
autotrickler.com

ShotMarker

The electronic target for everyone. by Adam MacDonald Order Now ShotMarker changes the way we shoot at long range. Attach the sensors to your frame and receive instant feedback on your mobile device, at any range, as long as the bullet is supersonic at the target. Using 8 high precision MEMS...
autotrickler.com autotrickler.com
still might wanna get a pad or something to view it on .
Click to expand...
Well that’s pretty slick. Unless it’s a typo they are saying the WiFi range is 100km (kilometers?!!). If you accidentally shoot a sensor it’s only $40 to replace. Uses the supersonic shockwave (no subsonic here) to measure shot placement as well as velocity which can be really helpful for fine tuning with load dev and DOPE. We make assumptions with shot placement (POI), muzzle velocity and BC to come up with down range solutions but BC isn’t always right and knowing your velocity at distance can be an extra advantage.
 
LostInTranslation said:
This is actually quite a neat gadget. Was put off by price a bit - but it is better than using spotting scope... I am sure battery management (of it and phone) can start getting annoying but still. Thanks for suggestion - will consider it once I start shooting longer distances.
Click to expand...
Longshot is worth the money for your issue.
 
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Glassaholic said:
Curious to hear/see your results.
Click to expand...
Before elk hunting one year, I was sighting in and practicing out to 500. I placed my sons phone at the target on a tripod and we watched on my phone. Worked fine.
 
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Savage Mark said:
Those look like a lot of set up and tear down . Longshot you put camera up and your done . Can also view multiple targets .
Click to expand...

Depends on which system you buy from SMT. And even their cheapest offering gives significantly higher functionality than a camera that looks at paper that gets shot up.

SMT doesn't even need an actual paper target. It just needs something the shooter can reference in the center of the frame.
 
308pirate said:
Depends on which system you buy from SMT. And even their cheapest offering gives significantly higher functionality than a camera that looks at paper that gets shot up.

SMT doesn't even need an actual paper target. It just needs something the shooter can reference in the center of the frame.
Click to expand...
Have you tried a Longshot ? My buddy has a shot marker and I’m always waiting back at bench for him to get it set up . Long shot you can view many targets , zoom in on each one independently, Mark your shots and even calculate group size . For me it’s invaluable .
 
Glassaholic said:
Well that’s pretty slick. Unless it’s a typo they are saying the WiFi range is 100km (kilometers?!!). If you accidentally shoot a sensor it’s only $40 to replace. Uses the supersonic shockwave (no subsonic here) to measure shot placement as well as velocity which can be really helpful for fine tuning with load dev and DOPE. We make assumptions with shot placement (POI), muzzle velocity and BC to come up with down range solutions but BC isn’t always right and knowing your velocity at distance can be an extra advantage.
Click to expand...

Ive used Shotmarker - its awesome.

You can see each hit on your chosen device 2 seconds after the shot, plus it gives you all manner of other info (built in chronograph so you know your speed at the target etc), easy to attach to the target and easy to setup on you're device if you are even a little tech savvy.

I was shooting at 900M when I used it and it worked great.
 
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Savage Mark said:
Have you tried a Longshot ? My buddy has a shot marker and I’m always waiting back at bench for him to get it set up . Long shot you can view many targets , zoom in on each one independently, Mark your shots and even calculate group size . For me it’s invaluable .
Click to expand...
No, I haven't.

I'm sure a camera can be setup more quickly. But the acoustic sensor systems like Shot Marker and Silver Mountain (SMT) give much more data than a camera can. They can give you the same data as the camera plus other that the camera cannot.

You can monitor multiple targets with SMT, depends which exact system you buy from them.
 
Our club has both ShotMarker and Silver Mountain for 600yd and 1K events. Both work great and have features such as velocity/SDs and target gridlines (mil or MOA). I don't get the "waiting at the bench for my buddy" comment since it's 5 additional minutes to set up: place 4 sensors and plug-in battery, antennae, and sender. Maybe his buddy is color-blind and has issues plugging in the different color wires? You don't need a giant target, just big enough that you don't tag a sensor with a wide shot. A neat feature is the "target shift" where we can artificially shift the "X" several inches up/down and right/left as the impact point gets tore up to keep the point of aim clean as you're looking through your scope.
 
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smoothy8500 said:
Our club has both ShotMarker and Silver Mountain for 600yd and 1K events. Both work great and have features such as velocity/SDs and target gridlines (mil or MOA). I don't get the "waiting at the bench for my buddy" comment since it's 5 additional minutes to set up: place 4 sensors and plug-in battery, antennae, and sender. Maybe his buddy is color-blind and has issues plugging in the different color wires? You don't need a giant target, just big enough that you don't tag a sensor with a wide shot. A neat feature is the "target shift" where we can artificially shift the "X" several inches up/down and right/left as the impact point gets tore up to keep the point of aim clean as you're looking through your scope.
Click to expand...
I don’t expect you to understand if you’ve never used a target camera . IMHO it’s just easier and quicker . Also with target cam you have 5 different shooters shooting at 5 different targets and camera covers all 5 targets that can be independently zoomed in for each shooter . I’ll post a pic this weekend showing exactly how this works .
 
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Savage Mark said:
I don’t expect you to understand if you’ve never used a target camera . IMHO it’s just easier and quicker . Also with target cam you have 5 different shooters shooting at 5 different targets and camera covers all 5 targets that can be independently zoomed in for each shooter .
Click to expand...
No, I hear you. We had the early versions of the Longshot years back, and it was pretty quick to set up. Either system has its plus/minus so for a handful of targets/shooters, a single Longshot sounds better. Regardless, the original complaint of "waiting for your buddy" is not really an issue. Maybe you should give him a hand setting up instead of waiting around?

One issue with Longshot camera we found was at 300yds with our more accurate F-class or benchrest shooters firing 20 rounds, the shot marking software had a tendency to not record rounds going through a previous hole/tear in the target. I'm sure they have improved that in recent years.
 
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I use large tan targets and a small black bullseye, typically about 3”. Then I can spot pretty much any hole even at 500y. White light even do better but my paper targets are tan.
 
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